MTG Salvation

I don't like the basic lands. To me they don't look lands or even Magic cards. If it wasn't for the mana symbol I on most of them I wouldn't have a clue what they are look wise. Bit of an eye sore if you ask me. Looks like crappy wall art hanged at a cheap run down Chinese restaurant that hasn't updated its look since the 70's. Ugly. Note remind me to not buy any the collectors packs as I know each pack contains an undesirable eye sore instead of usable basic. It is like those ugly lands like evolving wilds from Forgotten Realms. They were unusably ugly too.

Quote from Manite »

Quote from Azurhawk »

Tbh while I know these products are intended for new players, the first advice I'd give a new player would always be "don't buy these".
Which is a little bit sad.

And why would you do that?

Because they will not help a new player as a whole. The cards are jank and have no play ability against anything other than other plainswalker decks. The decks are poorly built. They don't provide a good launching point. Honestly I could build a better single expansion all common deck. In fact I build such decks fairly often.

When I see a new player I teach them with the free decks wizard provides and if they like the game I help them build a deck out of draft leftovers. These decks would retail for less than those plainswalker decks had the bought the cards as singles, but are better decks, with better cards. Yes they will still lose a lot but at least CAN win as the deck is at least built right with a good curve. And upgrading is easier as the deck has a better base.

I have taught over thirty people how to play in in my life. Most still playing to this day. My advice on these products is to avoid most of them. Play the starter deck I give them. Update ones collection though draft, prereleases and singles. Well and Commander decks as they often have good value and are playable out of the box if they want to start playing commander.

I would never suggest anyone buy a painswalker deck outside of collectors wanting to own them for completeness sake. They are just a bad product. Poorly built, poor card quality, and poor value. There is no upside for them to start the game with these weak decks that aren't a real upgrade to the free decks wizards gives newbies. I am with Azurhawk, my advice to new players is not to buy those decks. They aren't a good starting point. They don't demonstrate how to build a good deck. They are needlessly bad and aren't a good product for anyone really.

I honestly like a healthy balanced meta with all kinds of decks and strategies. Stax, group hug, and chaos requires you to think outside of the norm for your deck and adapt, and that is good. Control is my favorite kind of deck to play, and I love playing against it. Trying to read a control player and answer their answers is a blast in my opinion. Agro keeps thing honest and punish slow stops and over costed nonsense. And ramp/reanimator is the norm in commander. What's to hate? And while overpowered combo decks for their meta aren't fun, but combo forces you to pack answers and that is good.

The real problem isn't with a particular deck strategy it is with an unbalanced power level. I play at more than one LGS, and I play at home with friends and the power level is way different with these different metas. If I take my more competitive decks to my home play group of mostly poor and new players, it doesn't matter which style I play no one will have fun as the winner is determined at the start. If I play the precons I play at home, at the most competitive LGS I play at, I won't have fun as I would be dead to start. Power level is more important that deck strategy in regards to the fun in the game in my not so humble opinion.

I voted for the record fo combo. It is the least interactive and interaction is what I love about Magic. Plus some combos are so slow and durdle quite a while before they win. I think combo is needed in the meta but in my opinion it is the least fun to play against and with. For the record I do play a few different combo decks myself.

I will never understand all the whining about deck types. In an ideal world there would be decks of all types in a meta forcing adaption and thought. If any one type of deck becomes to common play becomes boring. Bring on stax, MLD, chaos, group hug, control, aggro, combo, ramp, reanimation, tempo, pillow fort, synergy decks, good stuff, and any off the way deck some mad deck builder can build. AS long as the power levels are somewhat balanced things should be fun.

It does.

Shadowmage Infiltrator does some real work in the deck often drawing me 5 or more card before a sweeper kills it. No one uses removal to kill it as its damage is so minor and it never "combos off" like many of my creatures. My other, on paper better, draw creatures tend to die a whole lot as every piece of removal heads their way, and there's plenty of targeted removal in my metta.

My metta is also heavy on large creatures with multiple vulton style decks running around. Separatist Voidmage has saved me many of games by after the first time using a creature like the separatist to "capsize" there one touch death machine to their hand they look elsewhere while I have mana up.

And Lich Lord of Unx with Voidmage Prodigy often forms a soft lock on my most dangerous win from nowhere opponents. Plus he works really well with Galecaster Colossus, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Nin, the Pain Artist, Patron Wizard, Riptide Director, Information Dealer, Patron Wizardand a cast Inalla, Archmage Ritualist. Can you honestly ask more out of a three mana creature?

You are probably right about Riptide Director. I will think about its slot in my deck. It tends to die before I ever use it, even once, and it does cost a lot to do its thing. My deck could find better things to do with its mana. Like sack a Lich Lord of Unx created zombie wizard to Voidmage Prodigy counter something that could cause me issues.

Here is what I really like about your deck that is missing in mine, Volrath's Stronghold. I will have to find a home for it. And you are right about Trinket mage and Trophy mage. I will likely find a home for them as well. I will think a bit about what to cut.

OK new deck list up. Added several targets for Trinket mage to find. Also added a way to win minus going infinite in Docent of Perfection and when it comes out I am going to add Vanquisher's Banner as with Riptide Director out I am in need of another way to draw a few extra cards. There are a few small changes here in there as well.

Thanks, it is something I didn't think of. Now what to take out.

I am no longer looking forward to this set. I am not a fan of ether flip cards nor vehicles and this set prolongs them in standard and puts the both in the same draft format. Boo.I especially dislike flip cards. They tell everyone exactly what you are drafting, add logistic issues of hunting down enough flip cards or buying sleeves, and slow game play by having to take them out of sleeves to flip them. I really dislike the fact they are back

I do miss blocking. The lack of incentive to block as a rule makes limited control builds difficult. I am a control player at heart and early defencive creatures are key to a limited control deck. Blocking is how limited control survives till the late game where it has the advantage. Given all the recent combat keywords favor the attacker, blocking effectively or even trading is much, much less common. And lets be honest anything with a toughness less than 4 is useless as a blocker as many, many 2 drops now swing for 3. This hurts control, doubly so because because in Hour of devastation and Amonkhet there is only 4 common/uncommon creatures that have a toughness of 4 or greater for that same two mana. If 2 drops can attack for 3 turn 3 that just is not enough.

What a waste. Are they trying to kill FNM? Fewer prise cards with little or no value. You can't even put a token in a deck. Now that is a winner. Eliminating real FNM promos is a step down. With in demand FNM card like Fatal Push and Aether Hub they were on the right track, but now the incentive is a pointless tokens and fewer of them? That is not incentive. Other than the fact I love the game why in the world would I even bother? Even a random common not even a promo would be better as at least I theoretically could play magic with enough of them.

I am not happy about this change. This is going to hurt FNM and it was the best place to play. They aren't trying to fix anything or they aren't at least going to. Yes, most FNM promos were a joke, but this is a new low. I mean most tokens literally get tossed after a draft. You can pick them up for free in most cases. I only know of one person that was excited by the two sided zombie tokens and 20 people just handed their tokens to him as they didn't want them. At least they didn't try to pass them off as a prise to be won.

The other changes I will reserve judgment on. But if they are in the same line of thought ase nerfing FNM support I am skeptical at best. Who really thinks tokens are an incentive to play? I can get all the tokens I want from the trash after a draft. So FNM is now reduced to a game store dumpster dive as a prise? I don't get why they think that would work to drive participation. I really don't.

Quote from Borealis »

I'm personally surprised this doesn't ETB tapped, not that I'm complaining though.

It really makes me wonder, is there a legendary creature that cares about deserts though? Cause that would be the cherry on top of this cake.

Camel and Desert Nomads from Arabian Nights cares about deserts. Now why anyone would care about Camel or Desert Nomads, I have no clue. So there is exactly two non-Amonkhet block card that cares about deserts. Ironically the only desert outside of non-Amonkhet block is Desert from the same set originally.

This card is horrid. It is built in card disadvantage each time it attacks or blocks and for what a 4 power creature on turn 3? Look what you get with it's sad activated ability. You loose 1B mana and a creature and gain what an attack or block from a creature who's power is just barely above curve, a scry, one life and your opponent looses a single life, sorry rarely worth it. This is easily the worse of the gods unless your deck really needs to kill your own crap and even then there is better options. This God is a junk mythic barely playable in limited let alone standard. The worse card of the Gods in Magic. I hate junk mythics, it is like having a winning lottery ticket then to find out the pay out is a quarter. Grrr.

Quote from Impossible »

Quote from Neuroticneurok »

I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.

You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.

So what you're saying is the deck is a sampling of the kinds of things Black does? Zombies, Vampires, draining life, sacrificing creatures for value, discard, etc? To me that sounds like a good introduction to what the color is all about, assuming you knew nothing about it beforehand.

A good introduction to what the color is about, a bad introduction on how the game is actually played.

Take Liliana's deck. It's got heavy zombie, sacrifice, and reanimator themes in it. Imagine trying to play that deck against someone who has a playset of Remorseful Cleric and Take Vengeance, in addition to probably having access to another color, which could add further control or tempo elements to the deck. The planeswalker decks are flavorful, but they're not going to be able to scrape a win, not outside the circle of Planeswalker deck matchups.

If you were teaching someone to play golf, for example, you would not tell someone to play however they want, and sit back with a smile as they attempted to actually play through by picking up each of their clubs in turn and flinging them at the golf ball in order to make it move closer to the hole. In the same way, you do not give new players a deck with vanilla creatures and Skeleton Archers and other such rubbish - you give them a deck that has a strong, repetitive theme that makes for an easy deck to play. Here's cards that a Liliana deck should run:
Death Baron
Doomed Dissenter
Diregraf Ghoul
Graveyard Marshal
Gravedigger
Blood Divination
Macabre Waltz
Murder
Probably an Open the Graves or two.
Demonic Vigor and/or Abnormal Endurance.

Discard is a control strategy. Zombies are an aggro strategy. There can be overlap (if you make it a reanimation deck and there's a high cost finisher you can bring back to the field) but it's rare.

With Planeswalker decks, I don't understand the reason why the "strategy guide" doesn't contain a decklist, and the strategy is a couple of sentences at best, compared to the strategy insert of the theme decks, which contained a deck list, a full strategy on how to play the deck, and a little storyline blurb, in less paper surface area compared to Planeswalker decks.

I'd say bring back theme decks, and have 4 per set, like it used to be, unless it is a core set, in which there should be 5 per set, one of each color.

At least with theme decks and intro packs, I can tell you what the strategy behind the deck is. Not so with Planeswalker decks. I don't even know what Teferi's Planeswalker deck strategy is. Historic? All I see is the Planeswalker being shoehorned in the deck, rather than building a deck based on a theme.

I know the 4 themes for the Mirrodin theme decks were Affinity for Artifacts, Equipment, Artifact Destruction, and Sacrifice Artifacts, or the Scars of Mirrodin Intro Pack themes, which is Myrs, Metalcraft, Proliferate, Artifact Destruction, and Infect.

Initially Planeswalker decks had themes, like the Kaladesh ones, which is Vehicles for one of them, and Energy for the other, but lately, it is difficult to find out what the theme is for each of the decks. At least with theme decks, you tried to win by using the theme of the deck, like equipment, or flashback, or whatever the theme was. With Planeswalker decks, you'd try to win by getting the Planeswalker out, which takes away the focus of the set's specific themes. Look at the Planeswalker Deck's names, like Chandra Planeswalker Deck, compared to names like Waking Nightmares, or Grave Power, or Reality Fracture.

Planeswalker decks were a success because it was better than what we had in intro packs. What should have happened was that theme decks should have never became intro packs in the first place. Set associated precons should teach new players what the set is all about. With the Planeswalker being shoehorned in, I feel that the Planeswalker deck planeswalker are a waste of design and developmental resources. They just had to make a crappy Planeswalker just for the Planeswalker deck. I remember we had duel decks with planeswalkers in them. That should have been the way for newer players to get their hands on planeswalkers and get to know how to use them, although they wouldn't be standard legal upon release. The focus on the set associated precons should be on what the set is all about, not the Planeswalker.

When they changed intro packs into Planeswalker decks, I thought it was one of the stupidest decisions WOTC ever made, but since people liked Planeswalker decks, I can't do anything about it, but then again, they probably haven't been playing when theme decks were a thing.

Quote from Impossible »

Quote from Colt47 »

The starters should be playable and upgradeable. A starter product shouldn't be weak, it should be simple to play and use. Imagine a new player going to the store with this. The company wants the new player to get destroyed so they become angry and buy more cards just so they can win? It really is pitiful when it comes to products that are precons with wizards most of the time.

Except players that go to FNM aren't a majority. Most people that play Magic do so casually at their own kitchen tables. I don't know about you, but I started playing Magic against my friend on my bedroom floor with a pile of cards that would have been laughed out of an FNM. I had like 8 Thorn Elementals because I thought it was awesome and didn't even know how the card worked. Didn't matter to me, I still had a blast thinking Llanowar Elves let you search a Forest out of your deck.

These decks are for those players. They don't care if a card is competitively viable. They just want to play with cards they think are sweet, like for instance... special Planeswalker cards.

That's how I started, too. However, the way the game has changed from my experience is the point of introduction to the game. A lot of people come to Open house and then come to FNM / standard showdown as their way to enter now, usually with a friend. When your most dangerous opponent is your trusted friend, it doesn't matter what the power level is. When it's a fight with a stranger, there is no barometer to go by except what is legal at the tournament. My preference is to help new players get the rules down with the open house decks, then teach them deck building through limited with a set of cards from the current set. From that, I help them figure out what they like playing and then work on getting them started with a good constructed deck, usually building out from the limited deck. Planeswalker decks are okay for collecting, but I wouldn't say they are great for really playing the game.

I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.

You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.

Quote from Impossible »

Quote from Silver_Spellthief »

Thank you. This myth or just mindless acceptance that new players should be playing with piles of objectively bad cards and the idea that we should be okay with WOTC profiting from selling lazy designs that they themselves know are bad both need to end. The only options on the design scale for these things isn't either this or cards so powerful these decks will be bought at by scalpers. If it didn't occur to most of the people in this thread so far, the settings on the good old R&D-ometer aren't limited to 0 and 11. Assuming that when it is pointed out, rightly, that these cards and this product is bad and does nothing beneficial for new players, that the person bringing up grievances with the product either wants something specifically for them or wants something of a very high power level is a weak strawman attempt to discredit criticism and it's honestly pathetic.

1. But as I mentioned right at the start, all of this is beside the point. This product is for the people that don't even know what Magic is, the people who happen to see it on a shelf at Target or Walmart and are curious enough to buy it (or ask their parents to buy it). You do that by showing off exciting foil Planeswalkers, and cards that let you find your exciting foil Planeswalkers. 2. Not by building a functional but boring as all hell deck of vanilla cards with a decent curve. 3. If a person is asking you how to start playing Magic, this product isn't really for them because they've already taken the first steps themselves (asking a friend or going specifically to a LGS, for example), in which case a Welcome Deck would probably be a better fit. But calling Planeswalker decks objectively bad is to ignore their primary purpose, which is to entice people with no knowledge or interest in the game to pick it up and give it a try.

1. They can literally do both of these. There is nothing stopping them from creating a mostly functional deck with reasonable paths for improvement while also putting the exact same shiny foil planeswalker on the front of it along with that planeswalker's exact same search card and their same support creature. I haven't seen anyone asking for these decks to be tuned FNM ready decks from the start. There's nothing wrong with the deck containing it's share of not so great cards. As I've been saying, there should still be room for improvement in these decks. The problem is that the decks (historically) are almost completely those types of cards that are borderline useless anywhere but the kitchen table. This is why people don't like these decks. Because handing potential new players a bundle of cards that aren't going to serve them very well, and the company knows this, for a fairly substantial few to a lot of such potential new players, is simply scummy and we know WOTC can do better than this.

2. I literally never said that's what they should do but it's funny that you mention that because the majority of these decks actually are boring vanillas and french vanillas with a couple of planeswalker support cards.

3. This feels like a flawed statement. It isn't a stretch or unreasonable assumption to suppose that there is a lot of overlap between people who don't know much about Magic but are also trying to learn how to play. Those two things are literal requirements towards being someone who is beginning to be interested in something new. Not withstanding the fact that hedging your marketing bets almost entirely on someone happening to see one of your products in a supermarket when your actual marketing towards anyone not already in the game is nearly abysmal is pretty silly, refer to my first point on how making your product look exciting and enticing and actually delivering a rewarding play experience with a workable deck aren't at all mutually exclusive.

The bit about Welcome Decks is pretty telling, honestly. Players who are looking for a gateway into Magic are the players who are most likely to buy a planeswalker deck and these decks are basically all they have to go for because WOTC doesn't have any other beginner's product for someone trying to learn the game. Except Welcome Decks. Which are only available at an LGS but more importantly are free. And you're right Welcome Decks are full of way more workable cards than Planeswalker decks. When you mentioned them I went to look for one of mine and found my white one from Magic Origins. This thing had Grasp of the Hieromancer, Aegis Angel and Serra Angel in it. These aren't going to be taking tables by storm or breaking formats but they're decent cards. Grasp and Aegis Angel are generally decent cards and to this day Serra Angel wouldn't be the worst card for a new player to drop because it's still simply an okay card for its cmc. Again, no one is saying that some new hot standard card should be in these. At least I'm not. The bad part about this is, Welcome Decks are free. Planeswalker decks are $15. Two booter packs aside, it costs WOTC the same amount to print somewhat decent cards that players could potentially use later and grow in the game with as it does to print jank. So why are the free decks just as good if not better for new players, in your own words more or less, as the $15 decks?

Quote from scoed »

Quote from Manite »

Quote from Azurhawk »

Tbh while I know these products are intended for new players, the first advice I'd give a new player would always be "don't buy these".
Which is a little bit sad.

And why would you do that?

Because they will not help a new player as a whole. The cards are jank and have no play ability against anything other than other plainswalker decks. The decks are poorly built. They don't provide a good launching point. Honestly I could build a better single expansion all common deck. In fact I build such decks fairly often.

When I see a new player I teach them with the free decks wizard provides and if they like the game I help them build a deck out of draft leftovers. These decks would retail for less than those plainswalker decks had the bought the cards as singles, but are better decks, with better cards. Yes they will still lose a lot but at least CAN win as the deck is at least built right with a good curve. And upgrading is easier as the deck has a better base.

I have taught over thirty people how to play in in my life. Most still playing to this day. My advice on these products is to avoid most of them. Play the starter deck I give them. Update ones collection though draft, prereleases and singles. Well and Commander decks as they often have good value and are playable out of the box if they want to start playing commander.

I would never suggest anyone buy a painswalker deck outside of collectors wanting to own them for completeness sake. They are just a bad product. Poorly built, poor card quality, and poor value. There is no upside for them to start the game with these weak decks that aren't a real upgrade to the free decks wizards gives newbies. I am with Azurhawk, my advice to new players is not to buy those decks. They aren't a good starting point. They don't demonstrate how to build a good deck. They are needlessly bad and aren't a good product for anyone really.

Thank you. This myth or just mindless acceptance that new players should be playing with piles of objectively bad cards and the idea that we should be okay with WOTC profiting from selling lazy designs that they themselves know are bad both need to end. The only options on the design scale for these things isn't either this or cards so powerful these decks will be bought at by scalpers. If it didn't occur to most of the people in this thread so far, the settings on the good old R&D-ometer aren't limited to 0 and 11. Assuming that when it is pointed out, rightly, that these cards and this product is bad and does nothing beneficial for new players, that the person bringing up grievances with the product either wants something specifically for them or wants something of a very high power level is a weak strawman attempt to discredit criticism and it's honestly pathetic.

Giving players things that they can build on top of and grow from is not only a good strategy of nurturing a healthy and growing playerbase, but is also simply a good business decision. What sense does it make for WOTC to build a product for which a new player cannot find a playgroup at a game store or college campus or high school club? I don't know where you guys have been playing but you don't have to have an area full of spikes to be very underpowered with a planeswalker deck. Creating a product for new players should actually mean that it gives them an avenue to play with other magic players somewhere other than a kitchen table. There does not need to be a product tailored specifically to players who do not play any of fnm, draft, sealed, commander or any sanctioned format because these players can pick up just about anything mtg off the shelf and have it apply to their games. But if these decks had some form of play value, not monetary value, that doesn't matter with these, some level of decent, middle of the road, "hey there's a bunch of pretty okay cards in here" kind of play value, then those same beginners who bought these decks might be able to turn them into something that can put up a decent fight at an LGS, maybe with some tips from established players (and it would still benefit kitchen table players just the same). Oh look at that an opportunity for interaction with the community in a positive, mentoring kind of way.

As these decks are now I cannot with a good conscience recommend that any new player waste $15 on one of these and I've told several of other alternatives to these and that's going to continue as long as these decks keep going the way they have been. My comments are about how PW decks have been in aggregate, not on these specific decks because we haven't seen much of them yet (but I don't have a lot of faith for them).

The card is completely OPW. Not OP, OPW, as in Orc Pirate Wizard.

Oh!, I get it, it's 1/3 Orc, 1/3 Pirate, 1/3 Wizard and 1/3 your life total. Should have been a 2/6 for 1BBB.

PS: on the ship, he's 3rd in command. Okay I -> []

Wow awesome. I hope Wizards keeps this up. I can't wait for some more awesome FNM giveaways they could try.

1. Foil Advertising cards
2. Blank foil cards (front and back)
3. Foil date stamped Punch-out cards.
4. Mythic foiled promo date stamped Players Rules Card
5. The 3 of spades
6. An old Polaroid photo of your Uncle Jim's tube sock

You seem confused by that. I'll take it off your hands, and you can have this clue

Basically: Innistrad is a success and Zendikar, a failure only redeemed by full-art lands and expeditions.