When exactly is the plan to create this new primer? I am happy to contribute (not be the mod, as I don't have the time) where I can, but I won't be able to for about another week or so.
For those creating the primer, the majority of my opinions can be found in my SCG article. There are a couple of nitty gritty specifics, such as SB choices, that I don't distinguish. A big one being the inclusion of Thragtusk over Kitchen Finks discussed a while back in this thread. Thragtusk has the ability to handle a wider range of decks in a more open field because it comes in against Jund, Bant Eldrazi, Junk, and control as well as Burn, Zoo, and Dredge. Where finks comes in only for the latter.
I will be taking Elves to SCG Baltimore in February, and hence will be testing a fair amount in January and contribute more then. I can also run a lot of the math too. My main goal in testing is to discover which of the three is best Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Mutavault, or Westvale Abbey.
Let me know what is needed for this primer and in about a week I can see what I can do
I see what you mean regarding the black spell-based SB. In fact, it is quite similar to the more common plan in the states of GW with spell-based SB cards like Path To Exile and Stony Silence.
I was under the assumption that discard was mainly for quick disruption, as I used to play Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay in my board when Twin was a deck. Using it as a turn 3 answer to their sweeper is very interesting, and might not really dilute the plan in the way I was expecting. Although bringing in hand disruption against Jund feels weird, it might be correct in that case!
Given everything you said, I now have high hopes for Collective Brutality in your build specifically. Because it handles cards we care about and also is very good against Infect and Burn (probably not great against Affinity IMO). Can't wait to hear back on your results!
The lack of Cavern of Souls is also on purpose, but this is a discussion I brought up a few pages back and I am currently in testing period. Simply, I think blue counter spells are not a threat enough to take away from my consistency in getting black for my spell based sideboard.
This is a really interesting point, and will be meta-dependent. I used to play this deck a lot more a while ago, and blue decks were more popular back then. At that time I would never EVER consider playing less than four copies of Cavern of Souls. But in the current meta I see where you're coming from!
I've had Westvale in my deck for the past 6 months and it has rarely disappointed. I have a lot of players who rotate between Grixis/Jund/Titanshift and other decks in my meta and Westvale is a house against those decks since they have no efficient way to kill it. Also allows you to keep pressure on in flood situations against decks who have managed to push you out of the early beatdown game into the midgame. It would be a cut if I went to Abzan Elves, but I'm just not willing to open myself to being stone cold dead to moons right now to make that switch.
Is that the only reason you don't want to play Abzan Elves? In my experience, Bloon Moon is not the end of the game. Sure it can be very good against the Abzan lists, but all it takes is a forest or mana dork to pull yourself out of this since that will allow you to cast Collected Company or a second dork.
As far as Westvale abbey is concerned, I think you can still play it in an Abzan version. I have been happy with one colorless land in Abzan. Game 1 it makes almost no difference since every other land produces green, so it doesn't really influence any mulligan decisions that are different from Gb to Gbw. Sideboarded games, sure, it could be another white or black source, but I haven't had significant mana issues for the passed year.
Of course if you like GB more, play it! But if you do decide to go to Abzan and your current meta is as you state, you can still play Westvale abbey!
I am glad that this forum has been active, respectful and quite informative, guys. Let's keep this the best place to discuss our beloved Elves on the net!
@ryansaxe,
Thanks for being such a great contributor with very good information. Love it!
Glad to help and thanks for inviting me into the community. I've always felt the only reason Elves is not tier 1 is because people don't play it. So let's push it out there!!
Syreal and I have been in love with Thoughtseizes my entire GB career. Now, regarding the list that I posted prior, a two of Collective Brutality. I really think this could take our GB lists to the next level. It is good against many of our weak matchups like Infect, Affinity and Burn. It can also be used against spell based combo. Has anyone tried this? I really want to know and have two copies in my sideboard now for testing. It has been decent so far.
I really want more feedback here. I have had very mediocre experiences with Thoughtseize in the board. On top of that, I would have to adjust my manabase to fetch-shock in order to maintain enough white sources in the deck and also have black on turn one. This makes so many matchups that are close, but a little out of favor (like burn) much much worse! Given how fast the format is, I don't want to do that. So Thoughtseize has the downside of only being optimal without white sideboard cards, and I think those are way more potent and important!
As far as my experience with Thoughtseize goes, I just felt it diluted my plan when I brought it in. Yes it stopped me from dying turn 3 against Infect, but slowed me down enough for Infect to draw a couple more cards to mitigate that. We want discard to slow down the non-interactive combo decks that are faster than us. But it is effectively a mulligan for us, and without Lead The Stampede (since this is post-board) that is more punishing than I am willing to risk.
Collective Brutality is much more interesting here just because it has more application outside the board and can be good other than turn 1 in matches where we want to bring it in. Although I am still skeptical because the discard option, when we take out Lead The Stampede, seems quite bad. Willing to test this one though, but i'm not too hopeful. Would love some data if you have already played it a bunch!
Although after reading Ryan's excellent article, I may swap Nykthos for Mutavault. Cool tech!
My next chance to try it out will be the 23rd. Any comments or suggestions in the meantime are welcome. Thanks to all, and Elf on!
Yeah, it would be great to get some data on the one of Mutavault. There is just this slot for a utility land, and Nykthos, shrine to nyx just doesn't impress me enough. I didn't mention it in my article, but another good one is westvale abbey. I was sent a private message with a list that had that instead of Nykthos, and I think some modern decks just cannot beat the card! It's also good sweeper protection!
I am not a huge fan of the non creature sideboard cards. But this depends on your expected meta. If I know I'm expecting a lot of affinity and some number of boggles, then fracturing gust is scertainly making my board at two or three copies.
As far as kitchen finks vs. Thragtusk is concerned, it is a concession to a meta game with 5 toughness threats. Kitchen finks is a card I often want to bring in against decks like Jund and Delver, but just doesn't line up properly against threats. Overall I like it more against Grixis delver, control variants, Jund/abzan, and bant eldrazi. But it is certainly worse against dredge, burn, and zoo.
Two Kitchen finks are standard in many lists, and completely defensible. But regarding the decks I see more, I find thragtusk to be more versatile and powerful.
Eldritch Evolution is an interesting one. I, as many people did, experimented with Allosaurus Rider in contingency with Evolution and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. But I haven't seen it, nor considered it, as an include to just grab bullets. It's an interesting replacement for Chord Of Calling, but overall I feel like one of the biggest features of Chord is the instant speed answers to whatever you need mixed with the ability to surprise Ezuri, Renegade Leader on your opponent's end step.
But it's great to hear that the card is working for you and I'm absolutely open to testing/experimenting with it. Those are just the reasons I have dismissed the card.
As far as cutting Nettle Sentinel That makes sense in your list. Without Lead The Stampede, a necessity of one-mana elves is much smaller. But having a dense number of one-mana elves such that you can cast Lead and continue the chain off an elf with Heritage Druid is so powerful. Not even to mention the fact that it attacks for two, which is an understated feature of the card. But when you're more all in on Eldritch Evolution and the like, cutting the Sentinel makes a lot of sense!
I have considered replacing some number of Nettle Sentinels with Essence Warden, but I have not had much time to test it. It might be more meta dependent.
Hello! I am the author of the article linked in the post above. I have been playing elves in every single format possible since I started playing over ten years ago. I can't get enough of the little green monsters. I just wanted to join the community here and help better the deck as much as possible. If you want any additional explanations about my article, or disagree with a decision and would like to discuss, please don't hesitate. We are all here to learn and improve the deck, so I'm glad to provide my two cents!
I have wanted voidslime to be mono blue for a while. I think i'll be pretty happy to put this in my cube. Not sure what to cut, but i'm sure I'll find something!
Just want to reiterate above...Does anybody have results they would like to share? I am debating throwing him in my cube right now, but the RR seems steep.
This is a very interesting card. The fact that this forces the opponent to spend their mana to remove their own creature if they want to cast any removal spell could make it quite good. I mean we just saw in EMA how frustrating it was to play against coalition honor guard, and this makes that their own creature! The fact that the creature can still block could make it not enough of a removal spell to really warrant play, but I think it's interesting enough to spark a discussion. What do we think?
This card might be better than cloudgoat ranger dare I say it...I am very impressed. With the addition of gisela, the broken blade I believe I will be cutting banesaleyer angel in order to test this card. Not because gisela is better, but because of not cluttering the 5 drop slot. I have high hopes!
My overall thinking was that since this is a land, you can wait until a situation where the opponent will have difficulty getting back the monarch to pop it off and then it would be like a one sided howling mine. I don't think this is a high pick, but if you can afford to play the colorless land, it seems pretty good to me. And if you're supporting a colorless package, it can even have that upside! I'll test and give results, but I feel like **choosing** when you become the monarch without wasting mana will be pretty good.
Throne of the High City
Land - Rare
Tap: Add C to your mana pool. 4, Tap, Sacrifice Throne of the High City: You become the monarch.
I really hope some of these monarch cards end up making the cut, because the mechanic seems to play a very cool minigame. As is, I think this is a slam dunk for anybody supporting colorless. I mean a land that can be cashed in for a one sided howling mine?!?! The fact that, unlike other monarch cards, you can wait to become the monarch until you have maneuvered a situation where you should be able to hold it for some time makes this seem quite good to me. What do you guys think?
For those creating the primer, the majority of my opinions can be found in my SCG article. There are a couple of nitty gritty specifics, such as SB choices, that I don't distinguish. A big one being the inclusion of Thragtusk over Kitchen Finks discussed a while back in this thread. Thragtusk has the ability to handle a wider range of decks in a more open field because it comes in against Jund, Bant Eldrazi, Junk, and control as well as Burn, Zoo, and Dredge. Where finks comes in only for the latter.
I will be taking Elves to SCG Baltimore in February, and hence will be testing a fair amount in January and contribute more then. I can also run a lot of the math too. My main goal in testing is to discover which of the three is best Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Mutavault, or Westvale Abbey.
Let me know what is needed for this primer and in about a week I can see what I can do
That was very enlightening, thank you!
I see what you mean regarding the black spell-based SB. In fact, it is quite similar to the more common plan in the states of GW with spell-based SB cards like Path To Exile and Stony Silence.
I was under the assumption that discard was mainly for quick disruption, as I used to play Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay in my board when Twin was a deck. Using it as a turn 3 answer to their sweeper is very interesting, and might not really dilute the plan in the way I was expecting. Although bringing in hand disruption against Jund feels weird, it might be correct in that case!
Given everything you said, I now have high hopes for Collective Brutality in your build specifically. Because it handles cards we care about and also is very good against Infect and Burn (probably not great against Affinity IMO). Can't wait to hear back on your results!
This is a really interesting point, and will be meta-dependent. I used to play this deck a lot more a while ago, and blue decks were more popular back then. At that time I would never EVER consider playing less than four copies of Cavern of Souls. But in the current meta I see where you're coming from!
Is that the only reason you don't want to play Abzan Elves? In my experience, Bloon Moon is not the end of the game. Sure it can be very good against the Abzan lists, but all it takes is a forest or mana dork to pull yourself out of this since that will allow you to cast Collected Company or a second dork.
As far as Westvale abbey is concerned, I think you can still play it in an Abzan version. I have been happy with one colorless land in Abzan. Game 1 it makes almost no difference since every other land produces green, so it doesn't really influence any mulligan decisions that are different from Gb to Gbw. Sideboarded games, sure, it could be another white or black source, but I haven't had significant mana issues for the passed year.
Of course if you like GB more, play it! But if you do decide to go to Abzan and your current meta is as you state, you can still play Westvale abbey!
Glad to help and thanks for inviting me into the community. I've always felt the only reason Elves is not tier 1 is because people don't play it. So let's push it out there!!
I really want more feedback here. I have had very mediocre experiences with Thoughtseize in the board. On top of that, I would have to adjust my manabase to fetch-shock in order to maintain enough white sources in the deck and also have black on turn one. This makes so many matchups that are close, but a little out of favor (like burn) much much worse! Given how fast the format is, I don't want to do that. So Thoughtseize has the downside of only being optimal without white sideboard cards, and I think those are way more potent and important!
As far as my experience with Thoughtseize goes, I just felt it diluted my plan when I brought it in. Yes it stopped me from dying turn 3 against Infect, but slowed me down enough for Infect to draw a couple more cards to mitigate that. We want discard to slow down the non-interactive combo decks that are faster than us. But it is effectively a mulligan for us, and without Lead The Stampede (since this is post-board) that is more punishing than I am willing to risk.
Collective Brutality is much more interesting here just because it has more application outside the board and can be good other than turn 1 in matches where we want to bring it in. Although I am still skeptical because the discard option, when we take out Lead The Stampede, seems quite bad. Willing to test this one though, but i'm not too hopeful. Would love some data if you have already played it a bunch!
Yeah, it would be great to get some data on the one of Mutavault. There is just this slot for a utility land, and Nykthos, shrine to nyx just doesn't impress me enough. I didn't mention it in my article, but another good one is westvale abbey. I was sent a private message with a list that had that instead of Nykthos, and I think some modern decks just cannot beat the card! It's also good sweeper protection!
As far as kitchen finks vs. Thragtusk is concerned, it is a concession to a meta game with 5 toughness threats. Kitchen finks is a card I often want to bring in against decks like Jund and Delver, but just doesn't line up properly against threats. Overall I like it more against Grixis delver, control variants, Jund/abzan, and bant eldrazi. But it is certainly worse against dredge, burn, and zoo.
Two Kitchen finks are standard in many lists, and completely defensible. But regarding the decks I see more, I find thragtusk to be more versatile and powerful.
But it's great to hear that the card is working for you and I'm absolutely open to testing/experimenting with it. Those are just the reasons I have dismissed the card.
As far as cutting Nettle Sentinel That makes sense in your list. Without Lead The Stampede, a necessity of one-mana elves is much smaller. But having a dense number of one-mana elves such that you can cast Lead and continue the chain off an elf with Heritage Druid is so powerful. Not even to mention the fact that it attacks for two, which is an understated feature of the card. But when you're more all in on Eldritch Evolution and the like, cutting the Sentinel makes a lot of sense!
I have considered replacing some number of Nettle Sentinels with Essence Warden, but I have not had much time to test it. It might be more meta dependent.
This is a very interesting card. The fact that this forces the opponent to spend their mana to remove their own creature if they want to cast any removal spell could make it quite good. I mean we just saw in EMA how frustrating it was to play against coalition honor guard, and this makes that their own creature! The fact that the creature can still block could make it not enough of a removal spell to really warrant play, but I think it's interesting enough to spark a discussion. What do we think?
Land - Rare
Tap: Add C to your mana pool.
4, Tap, Sacrifice Throne of the High City: You become the monarch.
I really hope some of these monarch cards end up making the cut, because the mechanic seems to play a very cool minigame. As is, I think this is a slam dunk for anybody supporting colorless. I mean a land that can be cashed in for a one sided howling mine?!?! The fact that, unlike other monarch cards, you can wait to become the monarch until you have maneuvered a situation where you should be able to hold it for some time makes this seem quite good to me. What do you guys think?