I have been following this thread for a year now and I would like to thank all of you to help me understand this beautiful deck and all of it´s varieties and choices. I have been playing a streight GB Version as it fits my playstyle perfectly. Anyways, I would like to get some help on my Sideboard as I sometimes struggle with boarding.
Here is my Decklist for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dark-elves-of-the-pack/
My meta consists of Abzan, Knightfall Company, Lantern Control, Multible Eldrazi decks, Tron, Scapeshift, Esper Control and some other brews that are mainly creature based. Overall the meta seems slow and light on boardwipes. I think the only bad matchups are Scapeshift which I don´t see very often and RG Tron. I am open for suggestions.
1. Any idea how to change the sideboard?
2. Lead the stampede is a great card bout playing 3 leads and 3 visionaries seems a lot. I can imagine going up to 19 lands or another mana dork in the main but it migth be just fine without Horizon Canopies.
3. How to board and use Thoughtseize and Phyrexian Revoker?
1. Sideboarding with this deck is entirely your preference, but my main word of advice would be to play a second copy of Chord of Calling so you can board up to three copies when you need speed/utility.
2. Lead the Stampede and Elvish Visionary are both great in the meta you have described. They also make the deck mulligan better in the blind, which is important. I don't think the 19th land is necessary in most lists, but yours is because you're playing two non-green mana sources. So either go up to a 19th green-source or either replace Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Westvale Abbey with a green source. I would also recommend Horizon Canopy and Cavern of Souls, but I understand if they are out of budget.
3. Syreal94 has already covered a lot about Thoughtseize and I no longer play that version, so I would look at the post he mentions above. As far as Phyrexian Revoker is concerned, I really only ever board it in against Tron and Abzan Company. Then there are some random decks it has utility against, but I would just pay attention in game to see any weird cards. It's interesting against Lantern, but probably not very good anyways.
You mentioned that Scapeshift is a bad matchup, but that has not been my experience with the versions that have Shaman of the Pack. The versions I have experienced no longer maindeck so many Anger of the Gods due to the lack of Dredge now. You should be a faster goldfish, and their interaction shouldn't slow you down enough. As a tip, you can often see if they have a sweeper by turn 4 as they would have used it. Then you cast Collected Company on your mainphase so they can't take it with Remand or Cryptic Command. If this is the Primeval Titan version, they tend to be a turn faster, but have less interaction and you still have a faster goldfish. Why exactly do you view this as a bad matchup? And if the community here agrees that it is a bad matchup, please, everybody enlighten me. That has not been my experience.
I've gotten a decent feel for my LGS, which is lots of Tron (not Red, thank god), other ramp like Valakut, Eldrazi (mostly Tron), and some Fish. Occasionally there's a Jeskai Control with Copycat, or an Abzan Midrange. I feel like my Abzan Elves maindeck is pretty solid (3 Chord 4 CoCo), but I'm wondering about a few sideboard slots. My hunch is that with little in the way of attrition decks but lots of decks that run sweepers, Lead is going to be a good 3-of in the board over Bestiary. Reason being those ramp decks are basically looking to lock you out after sweeping, meaning you want to refill now not 2-4 turns from now like you can do vs. Control/Midrange.
Does that sound about right?
In the way that you've described your meta, I'm not sure if I would even board in Lead the Stampede in many matchups. I don't like it against tron of any kind (then again I don't have much experience against the new version of Eldrazi Tron as I haven't played modern since the printing of Walking Ballista). And even though Valakut decks have sweepers, I would rather be fast against them and Chord for Selfless Spirit.
As far as Bestiary vs. Lead goes, Lead is better against Abzan/Jund decks due to Abrupt Decay and Bestiary is better against decks without much of a clock that can't handle artifacts such as U/W control. But both cards are good against both decks!
So I recently wrote a GB mulligan guide. Check it out here. I'm also gonna add a Thoughtseize guide in there too at some point in the future.
Great writeup! I would go as far to say that mulliganning is the most important aspect of modern, and this deck has some of the more complicated mulligan decisions in the field. I agree with nearly 100% of your reasoning! I was actually supposed to write the mulligan guide (math heavy) for this primer, but I got extremely busy and haven't gotten around to it yet. Mulliganning is actually the reason that I prefer maindeck Lead the Stampede over Chord of Calling, as it lets us mulligan more aggressively in the blind, which is extremely important for any large-scale event (like a GP) where the meta is unlikely to be expected.
Boy, after watching all the Death's Shadow Aggro at the Vancouver Top 8, I'm grateful we have Elvish Champion. That would be a staple in going up against DSA.
Actually, it seems like a fast go-wide strategy like ours may be decent against the deck generally. Depends on how fast they can race, I guess. Or maybe the hand disruption is just too much for Elves to deal with?
So the new Death's Shadow deck is much more like an aggressive variant of Jund. It has disruption, removal, and a couple threats. We tend to be very good against this style of strategy. Elves is redundant enough to deal with the hand hate and removal, as we have learned from playing jund. Yes, this deck is faster, but without Temur Battlerage (they only play two) I don't see it being a bad matchup. But this is all speculation.
Just to ask a question about the narnam renegade discussion: if the goal of the card is to hold it back and block threats when necessary, this can't happen if the opponent has a removal spell. So if the opponent doesn't have a removal spell, why can't we get Ezuri, Renegade Leader and block and regenerate.
I haven't tested the deathtoucher, but it just seems a little too cute IMO
The variance of the draw seems to impact Elves (or at least the B/G+Lead version) more acutely than other modern decks I play. Is this a fair statement, or am I perhaps not sideboarding and mulliganing agggressively enough?
I play an Abzan List, but this is one of the reasons that I like having Chord. If you aren't getting the pieces you can search for them. It's not a "combo" deck, but it kind of acts like one. It is really hard to win games if you don't have an Ezuri, Archdruid, or enough elves in play to get your Shaman triggers. I run 1 Chord and 3 Lead main with 2 Chord in the Sideboard so I can get my bullets if need be. Lead allows you to get a little more aggressive with Mulligans as it will rebuild your hand with creatures quickly. In my meta, the only decks I feel I have to sideboard heavy against are decks with a lot of removal such as: Jund, burn, etc.
Bad draws are bad draws, however.
I highly advocate this response. The variance of draws and speed can be mitigated by mulliganing and Lead The Stampede makes those mulligans much better!
Esper has Esper Charm which can dismantle our hand along with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek and at instant speed. A friend of mine is putting Esper Transcendent list together so I'll be able to playtest against it once he's done. But as with other control decks, I don't expect it to be an easy matchup.
My biggest advice for control is to get in every ounce of damage as possible. I maindeck 4 Cavern of Souls and 3 Lead the Stampede, which tends to put me in a favorable position against most of the control decks (although Gideon Jura really is a problem).
But when I say every ounce of damage, I really mean it. Sometimes this is attacking on turn two with your 1 mana elf and playing two more as opposed to three. This heuristic of attacking more means we aren't as explosive, but the potency of Shaman of the Pack increases and board wipes are less detrimental. It's not with our normal game plan, but I've had a lot of success with it!
I haven't been very active lately, but I should be around more frequently now to help. I am quite suspect of Narnam Renegade as a chord target (which seems to be a frequent conversation of late. I do like it if you maximize fetch lands, so I think I would only want to play it in an abzan deck that has spell-based sideboard slots and maximizes the fetchable mana.
@Kizzel Caverns are worth it for blue decks or Chalice decks. I prefer Lead because it allows me to mulligan more aggressively and also allows me to refill my hand after wipes or while going off with Heritage Druid, which also leads to Nettle Sentinel. Nettle is great in the Lead versions for the combo potential. It probably isn't as valuable with Chord.
^^^This.
My overall opinion is that even though Chord Of Calling is a faster card, and modern is a very fast format, the ability to mulligan aggressively is beyond underrated. If you're playing in a large tournament, such as a GP, I want Lead The Stampede maindeck so that I can mulligan aggressively in the blind. Then when I know when I'm up against, the potency of Chord Of Calling increases enough post-board that I make the switch. Mulliganning is the most important aspect of modern because the games end on turn four, if you make the deck better at that it gets so much better than you can imagine.
Same goes for Cavern Of Souls. If you're in a small meta where you know the number of players on control and Chalice Of The Void, then decide whether you want Cavern. But if you're going to a large event, I would rather not straight up lose to a fairly popular sideboard card as well as be prepared for everything.
Does anyone else think that Fatal Push is going to hurt elves way more than it helps? Sure we care more about board wipes but yet another 1cmc spot removal card that works against our entire deck seems very bad for us and our winrate %.
I 100% agree. I honestly don't like Fatal Push in elves. If I am playing a card that doesn't go along with my gameplan, I would rather have Thoughtseize to help me win. We tend not to care much about creatures, although it might help against Infect and Death Shadow Zoo.
The real problem I see with this card, is Abzan now gets an answer to our Turn 1 mana dorks! The matchup is still probably fine and in our favor, but that's quite annoying.
The problem is Tron still has oblivion stone (and usually Natural State SB). Turn 4, Everything on your board, but your lands, are gone do to Oblivion Stone. Even if you infinite 1/1 on turn 3, they still have summoning sickness. And all infinite of them still die to a Pyroclasm. Infinite life is irrelevant to Tron because of Karn. Also with only 2 Curios, the percentage of getting all the pieces you need to do all this by turn 3 is very low. (Especially having all the pieces to get infinite mana, then infinite draw to find Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite, create the tokens, then Shaman of the Pack for lethal.)
Someone would have to do the Math, but I probably have a greater probability of going off fast and them not having a sweeper then I do of having the perfect hand with everything I need to go off by turn 3 and them still not having a sweeper or artifact destroy.
Removing 2 Cards from my deck for Curio MB brings the consistency of my deck down for all my other MUs. And just having it in SB means I have to remove two other pieces that I probably rather have for all the other MUs. (Right now im running GW, so giving up 2 slots to Curio instead of 2 bullets or 2 Chords wont work.)
Curio isn't a new idea. And with Combo elves where your focus is assembling the combo, it might be more viable.
G/R Tron is just a bad match up for us right now. (its a bad match up for a lot of decks). And that's ok, eventually something gets printed that makes the match up a little more even for us. Luckly a lot of people are trying out the G/W version and now the G/B version, and we can win those.
And just because there isn't much we can do about Tron, we still write on here because there is something we can do about the rest of Moderns diversity.
Thank you for that last statement. It appears here that people think Tron is a bad matchup when it really isn't bad. Only G/R Tron is bad, the others are entirely winnable, not 100% sure who is favored, but I have always felt like I had a leg up when playing against G/W. I also agree with your point about Cloudstone Curio. It's too much of a pipe dream in this version of elves. There is an all in version that plays Summoner's Pact, and the curio is very good there!
By making the same example I might also say that with curio you can have a T3 infinite tokens, infinite mana or infinite card draw as easily as the opponent could have karn. Their only way out of the infinite tokens, for example, pyroclasm, and this buys you a turn. you have another turn to exploit curio again and win or set them far behind. You could also win on the spot t3.
This is not to argument that curio is the way to go, but that making examples sometimes brings to logical fallacies and therefore I suggest not to use them to prove points.
I really mean no disrespect: I see your point, but there's really no reason to write my reasons off in that way. I was only reasoning possible ways to overcome the problem, trying to contribute to the discussion.
The "no reason for needlessly innovating" is frankly ridiculous, as it is the "more experienced users have tried everything" one. When I find myself using these arguments, it's a sign I have no stimuli to improve something, and that I might as well stop tinkering about it.
If you are practically saying "there is nothing to do about it" then there is no reason to continue writing here, we can just print the most successful decks (or the primers) and be done with it!
I don't think either of you are trying to be malicious or disrespectful here, just have strong opinions. But you do make a statement that is blatantly incorrect about consistency that I must point out. Tron gets T3 Karn Liberated about 20% of the time (math from reddit thread I can't find atm). That is WAY more than you will assemble an infinite combo with Cloudstone Curio because you have 25% chance of having it in your hand on turn two, let alone a mana dork to cast it and a combo to follow up with. Overall, I think the card is just too slow for modern in a non 100% dedicated combo deck. There is a combo elves version that I allude to above that you can look into if you want to play the curio though!
Also, we always must be innovating. The second I stop looking for innovations because it's "not worth it" is the second I stop playing this game. The game is complex and always in flux, and exercising novel discovery is extremely important. This conversation has been productive and I'm glad we have had it, but my opinion against Cloudstone Curio stands.
So I just locked in to go to MAGfest in National Harbor, MD. If any of you are going, or live around the area, I'll probably be bringing Elves and playing a good amount of Modern and Limited in the card shop that week! Feel free to say hi if you see me or PM me to meet up. Always love meeting fellow elf mages
Would it still be good to have thoughtseize, golgari charm or stain the mind in the sideboard?
As for tron, they play GR version
Thanks again!
For GR Tron, the best advice is to mull to very aggressive hands and cross your fingers. Figure out which religious figure works for you and pray to them for greatness because the matchup is very rough.
I couldn't agree more. Matchup is like 95/5 in their favor. It's so bad that I didn't dedicate any SB slots for it and hoped to dodge it when it was the most popular tron variant
Why is that? I used to beat R/G tron all the time back in the day with Lords elves and I've not seen it around in so long I'm not sure I know the current list.
So as I am sure many of us are aware by now, Anger of the Gods is bad for us. But we can beat it. It doesn't mean game over. It's slow enough that you can play around it, save a couple guys with Ezuri, Renegade Leader, and still grind through for the win. The thing is, R/G Tron has 3-4 maindeck Pyroclasm. They have a 31% or 39% chance of having it in their opening hand respectively. I find Tron a close matchup, usually in the favor of Elves because we only really care about Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and can ignore Karn Liberated.
The thing is, if the matchup is close, say 50/50, and you add Pyroclasm, Trons win percentage now becomes 0.5 + 0.5 * 0.39 = 0.695. But that is only considering opening hands, with a couple other cards, the probability of Pyroclasm becomes over 50%. And that card is just too fast. It disables the ability to run away with the game on the play because they don't have time. And all Tron needs to do against us is buy a turn or two of time to get Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Hence, Pyroclasm is more than just a good card against us, it's exactly what Tron needs in the matchup. 95/5 was hyperbole, the actual math suggests it's more like 80/20.
It can't be that bad. I am going to test vs. my Tron tonight, but I think the last time I did GW Tron, it was only 60/40 vs. Elves.
Well, I did an odd thing this FNM. I noticed a bunch of GR Titanshift/RG Breach decks that run Anger of the Gods, so I decided to see if I could play a deck that has trouble with Anger of the Gods. I usually try to think of a deck that does well vs. the decks/people that I want to beat and go from there. Last week, I played GW Tron for the second time in tournament play and got 4th at 4-1. I beat that tonight, playing GW Elves for the first time in tournament play. I should say that I test the decks at home by myself though. 25 person , 5 round FNM.
Round 1 vs. Mono White Emeria. I come out the gates. He plays turns 2 and 3 Wall of Omens into Wrath of God. I didn't play around that and tried to regenerate, but luckily we realized the mistake before we couldn't take it back. He ends up playing 2 more Wrath of God and then Sun Titan and value. I scoop after some attacks and Emeria and 7 plains were on line after the 3rd Wrath of God. Lone Missionary was a pain too. In the next game, I dodge turn 4 Wrath of God and put pressure on his life total. He ends up playing 2 Wrath of God this game, but I kept a bunch of good cards in hand and needed 1 more damage. In the last game, I Chord for Scavenging Ooze and he gets enormous, eating a bunch of creatures out of his graveyard first so Emeria will never do anything other than be a tapped for a turn Plains. He gets Path to Exile for it, but I rebuild and smash through a few more Wrath of God again. I do not know how we beat that card with a mediocre draw. Not to mention, I forgot to switch a Burrenton Forge-Tender for a Selfless Spirit. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Affinity. In the first game, he got an early Cranial Plating and I had one chance to find Rec Sage off Collected Company, but he dodged it and I scooped. In the next game, Rec Sage, Kataki, and pressure kept him barely from killing me. He used the Bomat Courier to draw 3 cards after his hand was emptied, but couldn't find another Cranial Plating. I did a Collected Company that hit only one creature, but had Fracturing Gust in it, but luckily get enough to win. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver. In the first game, I keep on Cavern of Souls. He does turn 1 Delver. I do turn 1 Elvish Mystic. He flips Delver and Bolts the Mystic. I fail to draw another land, but somewhat go off slowly with Heritage Druid and get nearly lethal on board. I draw a Chord of Calling for Scavenging Ooze and exile a bunch of creatures and 2 Lightning Bolts from graveyards. I actually made a mistake of letting my Heritage Druid die to a 2nd Bolt of his before realizing that I needed to use his ability with 3 other creatures to gain life. I take it back since it is FNM. Probably not he smartest thing for myself, but this guy does a LOT of out of order triggers as well, so I don't feel as bad. He finds Murderous Cut for the Scooze. On the final turn before facing lethal, he does Thought Scour on himself and finds Snapcaster Mage. He does it for Serum Visions. He finds the 3rd Bolt for game. In the next few games, he had 5 Lightning Bolts again, but without pressure and a good draw by myself, I got there. Third die roll lost - 3rd match won. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk. I guess I didn't hear them calling the next round. My opponent took a long time last round, so I missed the first 9 minutes. The guy from the previous round and this guy called for a game loss, but this is Casual REL. I basically put out a bunch of Elves and got Ezuri and smashed in 2. My first die roll won, but I also won the match 2-0.
Round 5 vs. Junk. I am the only 4-0, so we ID. We play for fun anyway. He mulls to 5 and has a slow hand. I get early pressure and win pretty easily. In the next game, he does a Collective Brutality on my Llanowar Elf, discarding something for the Duress mode, but I have only creatures. I have E Witness though and get my Elvish Archdruid back as he does have much pressure. I eventually get Spellskite and allow my 2 Llanowar Elves to get Maelstrom Pulsed because he had 1 card in hand and Path mana up. I do Collected Company and get Elvish Archdruid and Ezuri and with Spellskite in play, it is unbeatable next turn. 0-0-3, but won for fun, 2-0.
Thanks for posting the results! As far as your G/W Tron predictions, I think that it's in the favor of Elves, but ever so slightly. The thing about Tron variants is you have to really know how to handle that matchup. This is an example of a matchup where you need to be attacking every chance you get to increase the chances you can power through Ugin, the Spirit Dragon or Oblivion Stone. You also need to mulligan with Karn Liberated in mind. It takes a while to get a true handle on it, but once you do and learn some of the subtleties (like attacking with a mana dork for that 1 damage can be really relevant), I find we pull ahead. To add perspective to this, a while back I made a post about a mulligan decision that many people in the community here thought was a keep, but I believe is a mulligan due to my experience in the matchup. Here is my post explaining why!
Note that the hand is close, and you can get rewarded for keeping it, but my point is that you have to think differently in this matchup based on the way they win and how that lines up against the way we win.
Would it still be good to have thoughtseize, golgari charm or stain the mind in the sideboard?
As for tron, they play GR version
Thanks again!
For GR Tron, the best advice is to mull to very aggressive hands and cross your fingers. Figure out which religious figure works for you and pray to them for greatness because the matchup is very rough.
I couldn't agree more. Matchup is like 95/5 in their favor. It's so bad that I didn't dedicate any SB slots for it and hoped to dodge it when it was the most popular tron variant
What would be a good sideboard for a GB build at the moment?
Thanks in advance
Anyone???
That's not very easy to answer without more info. One of the selling points for elves is the flexibility of the sideboard. Is this for a big tournament? A local meta? What are you expecting?
Also if you could post your current list that would also be helpful to assisting you construct your board.
I have moved my leads to the SB for grindy games. They always feel very win more in G1 against Jund to me anyway. Jund has an incredibly hard time stabilizing against us because they are actually pretty removal lite game 1 (10-15%, or 6-9 cards). I'm on 4 chords 4 cocos personally, but Ive had great success with the leads too. Against anything trying to race, Which is a ton of the modern meta right now, I want chord in the main to grab a road block. Quality over quantity if the game is coming down to 1 turn IMHO. Eldrazi/Jund/grixis then yea CA all day long.
This seems to be a conclusion that many have come to that I fundamentally disagree with. Although Chord of Calling is faster than Lead the Stampede, the card isn't extremely fast. In a fast meta I want to attack for enough damage that I can get Ezuri, Renegade Leader and win. Sometimes you come up short here due to chord. I agree with the principal of speed, but chord is much better post board, where lead is much better game 1. The real reason I still want to be on Lead the stampede is that it allows me to mulligan aggressively, which I value so high in a fast format.
Something not discussed, but I believe to be quite interesting...If your goal is speed in game one, I would consider a 2-2 split between Chord of Calling and Eldritch Evolution. Although it's not instant speed, Evolution is the fastest option possible for what we want.
Overall, 4 chord, 3-1 or 1-3 split between chord and lead, 4 lead, and 2-2 split between chord and evolution are all viable options. It's very hard to deem any as "correct", but I lean towards the 3-1 split in favor of Lead the stampede
To further explain, I think lead is too important. The consistency of the deck skyrockets, while slightly increasing power and decreasing speed. But it doesn't decrease it by that much, especially because you can't cast Chord of Calling until turn 3 anyways, and usually you don't want to until turn 4 unless you're getting Ezuri for lethal on three with a very explosive start.
The reason I like one copy of Chord in the main is to round out number. Increase the probability of double Shaman Of The Pack. Have Ezuri, Renegade Leader to win if you need. Sometimes you even grab Heritage Druid. The problem is, the flexibility is diluted game 1, when it is expanded post-board. Now when you maindeck four copies of chord, you can play bullets in the main, but their potency is much smaller.
These are just my opinions and what I have discovered from playing this deck for 1.5 years. I am not saying any other option is incorrect, but now you all know my reasoning
My mulligans have gotten worse and chord is much worse than lead when you're at 3 mana for sure. No argument there lol. But chord removes some of the reliance on archdruid. With lead you need a lot of mana to have an explosive turn and ezuri really needs an archdruid in some board states. Chord will allow me to grab an ezuri at instant speed and pump for lethal if I have the option, but it also lets me grab a shaman or some main board goodies like selfless spirit. There's less pressure on hitting a mass of critical mana. I also like chord better when bumping up against main deck anger of the gods, so I can grab that selfless spirit ASAP. The resurgence of dredge is increasing everyone's stock in anger and 4-5 main board out at feels very good.
I've been seeing some very linear decks in my meta though, like infect/suicide zoo/deaths shadow/etc. people are hanging up decks like Jund until the format slows a bit. There is a small representation of grixis and eldrazi (which eldrazi feels super easy to me personally, I also have it built an so have play tested pretty thouroughly). A small smattering of combo decks as well.
If the local scene were to revert to something slower and 2-for-1 type cards again I would definitely make the switch back, as I would for a larger tournament like a GP. But for anything smaller than a GP I like having chords in the main against these hyper aggressive decks.
I don't disagree, per say, but I don't run chord for the for the card advantage. i run it for card Quality. It improves lots of g1s for me right now.
Yes, in a much smaller meta, where you can predict a good amount of the field, metagaming with maindeck Chord of Calling is 100% the correct decision IMO. I did not consider this as, when I design a deck (known a bit for brewing), I always design it for large events and a wide field. It's why you see my sideboard the way it is. Which, if you're taking my list, should absolutely be tuned for your meta!
1. Sideboarding with this deck is entirely your preference, but my main word of advice would be to play a second copy of Chord of Calling so you can board up to three copies when you need speed/utility.
2. Lead the Stampede and Elvish Visionary are both great in the meta you have described. They also make the deck mulligan better in the blind, which is important. I don't think the 19th land is necessary in most lists, but yours is because you're playing two non-green mana sources. So either go up to a 19th green-source or either replace Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Westvale Abbey with a green source. I would also recommend Horizon Canopy and Cavern of Souls, but I understand if they are out of budget.
3. Syreal94 has already covered a lot about Thoughtseize and I no longer play that version, so I would look at the post he mentions above. As far as Phyrexian Revoker is concerned, I really only ever board it in against Tron and Abzan Company. Then there are some random decks it has utility against, but I would just pay attention in game to see any weird cards. It's interesting against Lantern, but probably not very good anyways.
You mentioned that Scapeshift is a bad matchup, but that has not been my experience with the versions that have Shaman of the Pack. The versions I have experienced no longer maindeck so many Anger of the Gods due to the lack of Dredge now. You should be a faster goldfish, and their interaction shouldn't slow you down enough. As a tip, you can often see if they have a sweeper by turn 4 as they would have used it. Then you cast Collected Company on your mainphase so they can't take it with Remand or Cryptic Command. If this is the Primeval Titan version, they tend to be a turn faster, but have less interaction and you still have a faster goldfish. Why exactly do you view this as a bad matchup? And if the community here agrees that it is a bad matchup, please, everybody enlighten me. That has not been my experience.
In the way that you've described your meta, I'm not sure if I would even board in Lead the Stampede in many matchups. I don't like it against tron of any kind (then again I don't have much experience against the new version of Eldrazi Tron as I haven't played modern since the printing of Walking Ballista). And even though Valakut decks have sweepers, I would rather be fast against them and Chord for Selfless Spirit.
As far as Bestiary vs. Lead goes, Lead is better against Abzan/Jund decks due to Abrupt Decay and Bestiary is better against decks without much of a clock that can't handle artifacts such as U/W control. But both cards are good against both decks!
Great writeup! I would go as far to say that mulliganning is the most important aspect of modern, and this deck has some of the more complicated mulligan decisions in the field. I agree with nearly 100% of your reasoning! I was actually supposed to write the mulligan guide (math heavy) for this primer, but I got extremely busy and haven't gotten around to it yet. Mulliganning is actually the reason that I prefer maindeck Lead the Stampede over Chord of Calling, as it lets us mulligan more aggressively in the blind, which is extremely important for any large-scale event (like a GP) where the meta is unlikely to be expected.
So the new Death's Shadow deck is much more like an aggressive variant of Jund. It has disruption, removal, and a couple threats. We tend to be very good against this style of strategy. Elves is redundant enough to deal with the hand hate and removal, as we have learned from playing jund. Yes, this deck is faster, but without Temur Battlerage (they only play two) I don't see it being a bad matchup. But this is all speculation.
Edit: clarified a sentence
I haven't tested the deathtoucher, but it just seems a little too cute IMO
I highly advocate this response. The variance of draws and speed can be mitigated by mulliganing and Lead The Stampede makes those mulligans much better!
My biggest advice for control is to get in every ounce of damage as possible. I maindeck 4 Cavern of Souls and 3 Lead the Stampede, which tends to put me in a favorable position against most of the control decks (although Gideon Jura really is a problem).
But when I say every ounce of damage, I really mean it. Sometimes this is attacking on turn two with your 1 mana elf and playing two more as opposed to three. This heuristic of attacking more means we aren't as explosive, but the potency of Shaman of the Pack increases and board wipes are less detrimental. It's not with our normal game plan, but I've had a lot of success with it!
I haven't been very active lately, but I should be around more frequently now to help. I am quite suspect of Narnam Renegade as a chord target (which seems to be a frequent conversation of late. I do like it if you maximize fetch lands, so I think I would only want to play it in an abzan deck that has spell-based sideboard slots and maximizes the fetchable mana.
^^^This.
My overall opinion is that even though Chord Of Calling is a faster card, and modern is a very fast format, the ability to mulligan aggressively is beyond underrated. If you're playing in a large tournament, such as a GP, I want Lead The Stampede maindeck so that I can mulligan aggressively in the blind. Then when I know when I'm up against, the potency of Chord Of Calling increases enough post-board that I make the switch. Mulliganning is the most important aspect of modern because the games end on turn four, if you make the deck better at that it gets so much better than you can imagine.
Same goes for Cavern Of Souls. If you're in a small meta where you know the number of players on control and Chalice Of The Void, then decide whether you want Cavern. But if you're going to a large event, I would rather not straight up lose to a fairly popular sideboard card as well as be prepared for everything.
I 100% agree. I honestly don't like Fatal Push in elves. If I am playing a card that doesn't go along with my gameplan, I would rather have Thoughtseize to help me win. We tend not to care much about creatures, although it might help against Infect and Death Shadow Zoo.
The real problem I see with this card, is Abzan now gets an answer to our Turn 1 mana dorks! The matchup is still probably fine and in our favor, but that's quite annoying.
Thank you for that last statement. It appears here that people think Tron is a bad matchup when it really isn't bad. Only G/R Tron is bad, the others are entirely winnable, not 100% sure who is favored, but I have always felt like I had a leg up when playing against G/W. I also agree with your point about Cloudstone Curio. It's too much of a pipe dream in this version of elves. There is an all in version that plays Summoner's Pact, and the curio is very good there!
I don't think either of you are trying to be malicious or disrespectful here, just have strong opinions. But you do make a statement that is blatantly incorrect about consistency that I must point out. Tron gets T3 Karn Liberated about 20% of the time (math from reddit thread I can't find atm). That is WAY more than you will assemble an infinite combo with Cloudstone Curio because you have 25% chance of having it in your hand on turn two, let alone a mana dork to cast it and a combo to follow up with. Overall, I think the card is just too slow for modern in a non 100% dedicated combo deck. There is a combo elves version that I allude to above that you can look into if you want to play the curio though!
Also, we always must be innovating. The second I stop looking for innovations because it's "not worth it" is the second I stop playing this game. The game is complex and always in flux, and exercising novel discovery is extremely important. This conversation has been productive and I'm glad we have had it, but my opinion against Cloudstone Curio stands.
So I just locked in to go to MAGfest in National Harbor, MD. If any of you are going, or live around the area, I'll probably be bringing Elves and playing a good amount of Modern and Limited in the card shop that week! Feel free to say hi if you see me or PM me to meet up. Always love meeting fellow elf mages
So as I am sure many of us are aware by now, Anger of the Gods is bad for us. But we can beat it. It doesn't mean game over. It's slow enough that you can play around it, save a couple guys with Ezuri, Renegade Leader, and still grind through for the win. The thing is, R/G Tron has 3-4 maindeck Pyroclasm. They have a 31% or 39% chance of having it in their opening hand respectively. I find Tron a close matchup, usually in the favor of Elves because we only really care about Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and can ignore Karn Liberated.
The thing is, if the matchup is close, say 50/50, and you add Pyroclasm, Trons win percentage now becomes 0.5 + 0.5 * 0.39 = 0.695. But that is only considering opening hands, with a couple other cards, the probability of Pyroclasm becomes over 50%. And that card is just too fast. It disables the ability to run away with the game on the play because they don't have time. And all Tron needs to do against us is buy a turn or two of time to get Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Hence, Pyroclasm is more than just a good card against us, it's exactly what Tron needs in the matchup. 95/5 was hyperbole, the actual math suggests it's more like 80/20.
Thanks for posting the results! As far as your G/W Tron predictions, I think that it's in the favor of Elves, but ever so slightly. The thing about Tron variants is you have to really know how to handle that matchup. This is an example of a matchup where you need to be attacking every chance you get to increase the chances you can power through Ugin, the Spirit Dragon or Oblivion Stone. You also need to mulligan with Karn Liberated in mind. It takes a while to get a true handle on it, but once you do and learn some of the subtleties (like attacking with a mana dork for that 1 damage can be really relevant), I find we pull ahead. To add perspective to this, a while back I made a post about a mulligan decision that many people in the community here thought was a keep, but I believe is a mulligan due to my experience in the matchup. Here is my post explaining why!
Note that the hand is close, and you can get rewarded for keeping it, but my point is that you have to think differently in this matchup based on the way they win and how that lines up against the way we win.
Hopefully that is helpful
I couldn't agree more. Matchup is like 95/5 in their favor. It's so bad that I didn't dedicate any SB slots for it and hoped to dodge it when it was the most popular tron variant
That's not very easy to answer without more info. One of the selling points for elves is the flexibility of the sideboard. Is this for a big tournament? A local meta? What are you expecting?
Also if you could post your current list that would also be helpful to assisting you construct your board.
Yes, in a much smaller meta, where you can predict a good amount of the field, metagaming with maindeck Chord of Calling is 100% the correct decision IMO. I did not consider this as, when I design a deck (known a bit for brewing), I always design it for large events and a wide field. It's why you see my sideboard the way it is. Which, if you're taking my list, should absolutely be tuned for your meta!