Some more thoughts on the matter:
- The 'you get both' aspect of manlands and utility lands continues to be significantly undervalued, imo. These cards are often actual sources of card advantage because you don't have to choose (see Shelldock Isle). You make land drops, trade resources with the opponent, and parity is eventually broken because your lands still do something relevant. These new dual types can only mirror part of that, making them significantly worse in a lot of scenarios.
- I think most would agree that save a few exceptions, the spell sides of these dual type cards aren't really cubable because they are not powerful enough (and obviously not the land part by itself either). Thus the power present in the card comes solely from the flexibility, the increase in keepable hands, the mitigating the risk of flooding out. But will including cards like these in your deck lead to more wins? Not necessarily. You'll keep more hands, and also play more monocolored tapped lands and overcosted spells, which are real costs well proven to lose games.
- There is actual precedent for these cards (or pretty damn close to it), and I don't really understand the aversion to compare the two. Lonely Sandbar is either a tapped Island, or a Reach Through Mists. Yes, you lose Island synergy and it doesn't count as a spell, which makes it a little worse (though you do get the actually great Loam interaction). Reach Through Mists is overcosted by 1 to be cubable, a tax I've seen here advertised as reasonable. Who runs Lonely Sandbar? I actually really like the card, but a tapped Island instead of an untapped one is such a huge liability that they don't make it.
- This part comes more down to how you look at Cube as a format. I think of my Cube as a way of drafting things that look like Constructed decks, where others have described Cube as closer to retail Limited with nothing but Bombs. I just can't see these cards making waves in the formats I mirror my Cube to, Modern and Legacy. Decks are crazy consistent, and efficiency is king. This is what I want for my Cube, and I know others don't want that, but it explains why these double types will likely never make it in my Cube (save those where the spell side is Constructed worthy by itself). They simply can't play an essential role in the decks I try to draft, these slick Constructed-like killing machines.
- Similar to my last point, in Limited consistency is worth a lot. In Constructed I feel you have to actually do something powerful, and games end way more often with one player holding a bunch of irrelevant cards. I've found especially in recent years that board advantage is crucial in Cube (power creep and especially planeswalkers have contributed to this), and to get board advantage you need to be fast, or strong. These cards are neither, as they are always slow (tapped or overcosted) and the spell side is weak by design.
I've found this whole discussion somewhat frustrating as I seem pretty fully convinced of my side of it, and it looks like the other side feels the same way. Maybe my Cube (and how I think about Cube in general) has evolved in a completely different direction, and therefore I operate with a different set of values. Nonetheless I think there's some value in trying to explain why I think these cards aren't nearly as good as advertised by some, simply because it's the opposite viewpoint compared to that shared by many.
- ryansaxe
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Fires posted a message on [CUBE] Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool ShorePosted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [CUBE] Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool ShoreI was able to grab a much needed land with Imperial Recruiter thanks to Glasspool Mimic being a 0/0 creature in one of my games testing with it already. I mean, it didn't feel amazing, but I was able to make my land drop for the turn. There's TONS of these kinds of little interactions floating around, and it'll take us a long time to discover them all.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [CUBE] Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool ShoreI don't think anyone said it's always better than cycling. But I do think it's better than cycling, and by quite a bit.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
There's two reasons why I might be cycling a card. It's either because I want to, or because I need to. When I want to cycle a card it's because I think any random card might be an improvement, so I'm willing to trade it for an unknown card. However, when I NEED to cycle a nonland card, the vast majority of the time it's because I need to hit a land. And in those instances, which I believe occur more often than the others, the land option simply can't miss. Whereas cycling won't hit any specific type of card you're looking for with any level of certainty.
Between being capable of finding a land 100% of the time I need it to and the impact that MDFCs have on the landscape of opening hand land/spell ratios, I think they're a significantly bigger advantage than cycling is. The existence of situations where cycling is better doesn't change these aspects of the evaluation. Originally I thought that the "situational" cycling cards would be better off with cycling following the same logic you did. But after simple goldfishing with Jwari Disruption it became apparent that my logic was flawed. 100% land when you need one + guaranteed land instead of cycling when you're making mulliganing decisions has just been much better than cycling so far. This mechanic allows you to keep otherwise unkeepabble hands, and cycling when you NEED to hit a land can't miss. Just so good. -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [CUBE] [ZNR] Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the UndercryptSeeing this compared to Gruesome Menagerie as a negative is just ...painful. My head hurts. That comparison is the same as looking at Rolling Thunder as a reason why the red mythic MDFC must be bad ...while completely ignoring the entire reason the card is good, lol. Oh well.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [CUBE] [ZNR] Includes & Testing Thread*pssst* This set is good for cubes.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [CUBE][ZNR] Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass // Shatterskull SmashingPosted in: Cube Card and Archetype DiscussionQuote from BlackWaltz3 »I appreciate you making the case Blue_Oneironaut rather than just positing this cards "absurdity" as fact.
I guess I'm just shocked that some folks seem to be having such a hard time evaluating this card. It seems so completely obvious how insane this card is that I don't really know how to articulate it without saying something that everyone should already know.
This can be a tapped land when my curve can afford it, and can come into play untapped when needed. This flexibility allows it to replace a land during deckbuilding, rather than a spell.
When I don't need a land, I can play it as a spell. This is an upside that other lands don't have.
So, for 1RR, I can kill any Lion or Piker in the entire cube. Plus lots of high-priority 1-toughness targets, like Dark Confidant, Rodellos, Lotus Cobra, Goblin Welder, Flickerwisp, Vendillion Clique, Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer or what-have-you. Or at the end of combat, I can strap on the last bit of damage needed to clip down an opponent's planeswalker that I was just short of killing with combat damage.
So even in it's lowest mana, lowest impact spell form, it kills a third of the creatures in my cube. It only scales up in flexability and versatility from there. This is in addition to being a tapped or untapped land, of course.
How many Dark Confidants can that Mountain in your deck kill? Oh, is it zero? That's what I thought.
That's why it's a completely absurd Magic card. It's a land that can also double as a scaleable, impactful spell when I don't need a land.
It scales appropriately from the baseline too. 4 mana and you can add all Bears and priority 2-toughness targets to the list, or kill a pair of targets in the 3-mana mode. In the 5 mana mode, you can have one of each! It continues this way all the way up the chain. It gives red an out to Baneslayers if you're flooding. Eventually, it scales into an absurd bomb, where you can have access to 12+ dividable damage. I've never seen a card that takes up a land slot be able to kill 2 Titans before.
I think this is the single most flexible Magic card I have ever evaluated before. It can replace a land during deckbuilding because it can be two different land forms, and it's castable for meaningful value at every spot in the curve from the 3cmc slot up.
Again, this is a Mountain that can kill a Rofellos. /fin
tl;dr - Lol, this card is so absurdly good it's not even funny. -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [IKO][CUBE] Lutri, the SpellchaserPosted in: Cube Card and Archetype DiscussionQuote from calibretto »The hyperbole in this thread is mentally draining.
Man, I hope you're right. I'm disappointed with how good I'm afraid this card is. -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on This or That discussion.Forbid. And it's not close, IMO.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
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wtwlf123 posted a message on [CUBE][WAR] Finale cyclePosted in: Cube Card and Archetype DiscussionQuote from steve_man »Finale of Glory was the best of the cycle...
I disagree in a big way. I think Finale of Devastation is FAR better. That card has been awesome for me so far. No plans on coming close to cutting it. -
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Cythare posted a message on [C19][CUBE] Scroll of FatePosted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
This is not true. The game moves to the next step/phase when both players pass priority without taking any action. Taking a special action counts as taking an action, so it passes right back to the attacking player before you move to the combat damage step.Quote from ryansaxe »Just a reminder on the ambush value with morph:
Unmorphing does not use the stack. This means that there is not an additional round of priority after you unmorph a creature (unless it has a trigger when that happens). If you block with a morph and an opponent passes priority, they will not have an opportunity to kill your creature before damage after you unmorph it. There creature will just die.
That fact makes this a lot more enticing to me. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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While Undying Creatures aren't in most cubes, You just need a clone, right? And there are three clones in many lists now (Image, MDFC, Metamorph). It's not fully infinite, but generally repeatable pay 1 life -> deal 2 dmg wins the game.
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I think all of that logic and evaluation is sound, and I absolutely see where you're coming from. I think we have different expectations for the mechanic as a whole. For example, I expect many of these cards to see constructed play all the way from Standard down to Legacy. They all won't, just like all magic cards don't, but many will. Thank you so much for outlining your expectations, beliefs, and evaluations so clearly. I really appreciated it!
I just believe these cards change the game significantly. And I will happily admit I'm wrong if proven otherwise.
Cheers! And for anybody else who stays in the discussion, enjoy
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You know what is also absolutely horrible? Every single mode on Izzet Charm. In fact, I would rather have an extra colored tapland in my deck over UR: any single mode of Izzet charm. Zero of those individual modes would make a 2000 sized cube. However, the card is fantastic and a lower-sized-izzet-section-staple because it provide full coverage: a set of options such that one is always useful. I view MDFCs in a very similar light.
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SO SO SO SO SO MUCH THIS
Magic is a game of probability. The reason we play cards like Preordain is that they skew the probability distributions of our draws in the direction we need (agency via card selection). MDFCs do something very similar. By having spells attached to lands, this provides a player agency over that variant distribution. What do you need more, a spell or a land? MDFCs will ALWAYS be whichever you need. That certainty is important. It means these cards need to be evaluated with more optimism than we are used to. Why? Because when you cast the spell side, it is almost always going to be when that spell is good. So there's no more WCS vs ACS vs BCS. To be as specific as possible, most cards are valued at:
P(WCS) * V(WCS) + P(ACS) * V(ACS) + P(BCS) * V(BCS)
Where P(x) is the probability of x and V(x) is the expected value of x. These MDFCs have a different equation:
P(BCS) * V(BCS) + (1 - P(BCS)) * V(TapLand)
Observer that V(TapLand) is almost always greater than V(WCS). That observation is what makes me believe these cards are all MUCH MUCH better than we're giving them credit. To me, this card is an absolute slam dunk. Same with the regrowth. Same with the elephant. Same with the removal spell. Hell, I'm even considering the 3cmc fling. Why? Because I believe that the probability that access to fling wins a game in a red deck is high enough (say 5-10%) to justify the inclusion of a tap-land. Fling is bad because P(WCS) is too high, and V(WCS) is literally close to zero. So including it in your deck leads to just a mulligan a great percentage of the time. Now it's never a mulligan.
I chose to use fling because it's not one of these rares that has an effect you would actually consider cubing. I'm higher on these effects than WTWLF123 by his example because reducing cost by 1 yields 2cmc fling, and I am nowhere close to playing fling. But I hope my explanation explained why I think these cards are all pretty ridiculous.
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TL;DR
Deck: 16 lands, 9 humans, 8 non-humans, 1 Winota, 6 other.
Avg # hits when cast: 1.65
Avg turn cast: 5
Complete misses: 14%
Edit: I have to say these numbers make me a lot more excited for the card!!
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SLAM DUNK!!
Unlike Lutri, you actually have to jump through hoops to get one of the most absurd cards possible. Furthermore, unlike Lutri, this card is a super solid playable in any creature midrange or aggro deck. So you don't need to hit Companion for it to be good enough. I think that adds up to a card that I'm stoked to include. Won't be too good like Lutri, but has an incredibly high ceiling and a reasonable floor!
Edit: I missed restriction only cares about permanents. The restriction might be too easy to hit, and could certainly be too good. UGH.
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