Despite the arrival of Jadelight Ranger and Ravenous Chupacabra, the deck still struggles in the late game, which is somewhat to be expected with a more aggressively tilted midrange deck. The lack of card draw aside from a low-power Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and the lack of recursion or late-game threats (no planeswalkers) means that the deck struggles against other midrange decks that have those types of cards (such as the blue splash). Ultimately, you are still at the mercy of the top of your deck, and without reach (or a manland like Hissing Quagmire), I think there may be better options.
So, wait, aside from Fetchlands, the deck loses almost nothing? (Wingmate Roc is a non-zero loss to the deck)
As the spoilers come to a close, and we see exactly what lands are available, building a mana base should become more workable. The new lands seem like a fine addition to the deck, and the deck should still be able to run enough color sources to play either Sylvan Advocate or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy on turn 2.
Sounds like a contender to me.
During spoiler season, I would like to use this forum to brainstorm the position of Bant Company post-rotation, and see what new cards may or may not slot into the deck.
So far:
It seems as if you can push the tempo aspect of Bant Company, play the full playset of Bounding Krasis, Reflector Mage, and the new Stitched Mangler.
The key to the Madness deck, believe it or not, is Relentless Dead. Being able to pitch a creature that you can recur later in the game for value when Falkenrath Gorger isn't in play just seems where the deck wants to go. I think the deck can effectively run the following:
You are going to want to shave on creatures for some removal, probably 4 Fiery Temper, 2 new XR Madness Burn spell or some catch-all removal spell.
This deck's worst problem is going to be that Sylvan Advocate and Reflector Mage will probably still see a ton of play, and you either have to go over or through those cards. Heir of Falkenrath, Relentless Dead, Olivia's Bloodsworn, Olivia, Drana, and Incorrigible Youths all apply in this case.
The lack of a 1cc mana dork allows Wizards to print 3cc cards with single color mana costs with impunity.
So, expect more Goblin Rabblemaster-type cards in Standard in the near future.
Previously, Elvish Mystic limited all 1XX spells to Green, which was fine until Green received multiple 1XX spells that were powerful (Deathmist Raptor, Courser of Kruphix) and it forced everyone to play a Green-based aggro/midrange deck at the expense of all other decks. I really wanted to make a deck with multiple 3cc creatures and Elvish Mystic, but Temur strategies don't work because Savage Knuckleblade is 3 colors, and all other attempts to make Elvish Mystic into Hordeling Outburst (or similar cards) simply did not work. What other powerful, playable 3cc card in Standard can be played off turn 1 Elvish Mystic? It doesn't happen.
Also, have you ever tried to get the Mardu mana base to work consistently? Not possible.
While I know that Dromoka's Command was already a card, this does seem to be a very nice Control card, as long as the deck can kill artifacts. Even if the effects are somewhat muted: Discard 2, Draw 2, kill a creature and drain all seem very strong in one card over the course of several turns. Needs to be paired with other cards to keep the board state clear, but it seems very solid.
I have no idea how the 5cc artifact isn't just busted beyond belief.
Double life AND double card draw (aside from your draw step)!
That seems bonkers.
Plus, Ux gets the perfect necessary counterspell, B gets a cheaper Wrath effect that doesn't hit Tasigur (or Rhino, unfortunately) -- control got A LOT stronger in this set, probably because the aggro decks also became stronger/faster with Honored Hierarch, Kytheon, and new burn spells.
If you are playing Ben Stark's version of RW, the play style is quite different than the stock list.
Against Gr Devotion Game 1 (where you would see Whisperwood Elemental), you have to try to tempo them out, and play Outpost Siege on Dragons, not Khans. Early Wild Slash on mana dorks + Goblin Rabblemaster/Seeker of the Way draws should put Gr on the back foot, forcing them to play large creatures defensively instead of offensively, and allowing you to run out Chained to the Rocks and Valorous Stance to force through more damage. Post-SB, you board in Dragons and Sarkhan, and just work really hard to keep them off enough devotion that a Polukranos will wreck your flyers. If it has two green pips, it needs to die. I also tend to find that Soulfire Grand Master is excellent against these lists since it can buy back Stoke the Flames and/or Valorous Stance. If they have a busted draw on the play, like most of Standard, they will probably overrun you. Move on to the next game, and chalk it up to variance.
-3 Lightning Strike, -4 Hordeling Outburst, +3 Stormbreath Dragon, +2 Sarkhan, +however many Valorous Stance you run in the board.
It's another 12 points of burn in an aggro decklist, plus the pump aspect is perfect for the tokens in Red. I think Pappy's list is very interesting, and although it could probably use another few 1cc creatures, I really like the direction it is going.
That's a lot of use that Atarka's Command can go big with. Hordeling Outburst might be too slow, and you will definitely want to draw more cards to refill your hand.
This card seems incredibly strong in this metagame, and might force players to move towards multi-colored permanents, which turns on Radiant Purge. Before Ultimate Price's printing, I saw little reason not to run mono-colored creatures in this format, especially creatures that dodge removal. This is a pure answer to Stormbreath Dragon, which makes black decks even better. It also allows for a fast Bx Aggro deck to remove Courser of Kruphix at 2cc without slowing down the race too hard.
I am fairly certain RW is on 4 Outpost Siege main deck or bust. It is by far the best card you can draw in any matchup. I am consistently impressed by how it overperforms.
Just curious about a couple of key points about the deck.
1. Have we decided in what metagame the hive mind here prefers Brimaz to Ashcloud Phoenix, and vice versa? Sam Black seemed pretty insistent that neither card is where you want to be versus the Gx Midrange lists, but I definitely prefer Phoenix vs. mirror (game 1 at least, before they can bring in Magma Spray), UBx Control lists, and Gx Midrange, which means that I play Ashcloud Phoenix over Brimaz all day.
2. Have we decided what the 24th land should be: Wind-Scarred Crag vs. Evolving Wilds? This seems like a really key difference in card choices for such an important slot in the list. I would have thought we could come to some kind of consensus about this by now.
3. Is the RW Aggro list played by Ben Stark better or worse than the stock list that we predominantly showcase in this thread? Reasons?
So, taking off from Mark Nestico's article on SCG today, what would you build for the metagame of this week, rather than the metagame of last week? How does the deck evolve?
So far, I have seen the metagame change to:
1. More Gr Devotion.
2. Possibly some more copies of UB Control.
3. More Jeskai Aggro over Jeskai Tokens.
In other words, I expect more Wild Slash, 3 toughness creatures, and sweepers.
What changes would you make to the list in anticipation of these differences in the metagame?
The core:
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Chained the Rocks
4 Stoke the Flames
(the only thing I would ever want to change about this is maybe -1 Stormbreath Dragon)
The metagame changes:
4 Lightning Strike (more 3 toughness creatures)
2 Wild Slash (to keep down the mirror mostly, probably some number of Magma Spray post-board)
2 Valorous Stance (to keep down the Gr Devotion Polukranos Game 1, plus respond to Crux of Fates)
2 Ashcloud Phoenix (tough to sweep, flies over Gr, solid blocker)
3 Outpost Siege (I could see playing 2 Siege, but I like 3, and dropping a land)
23 land
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
10 Mountain
5 Plains (no need for double white early due to no Brimaz)
Sideboard Changes
2 Elspeth (go big in the mirror)
3 Mastery of the Unseen (along with Outpost Siege, beats UB Control)
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Erase
3 End Hostilities (need to keep down the Devotion lists)
3 Arc Lightning (for the inevitable tokens)
1 Magma Spray (this is a better mirror breaker due to Ashcloud Phoenix)
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos (mirror breaker)
The metagame changed this weekend with the addition of yet another deck that goes wide in the Gr Devotion list that runs Whisperwood Elemental, Arbor Colossus, Polukranos, World Eater in a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx shell splashing Red for Crater's Claws and some other goodies to close the game out quickly. How does RW fare against this new build, especially since I have seen many lists moving away from Valorous Stance main deck in favor of Wild Slash.
Does the number of wide builds and devotion shells mean that End Hostilities needs to be part of the equation again, or do we just try to race with flyers? Brimaz doesn't hold the ground well against 5/5s....
If the format does not move towards token strategies, this deck is quite good, fortunately, there is a sorcery speed Festergloom in Red that the deck might have to play, along with Arc Lightning.
I actually like playing some decent amount of burn in the main deck of this list, since you are just going to kill your opponent as quickly as possible. That said, I have no idea if Blue is even necessary in this list, and it is a splash at most.
While the deck may actually want another early aggro creature instead of Lightning Strike/Arc Lightning (and it even may be Courser of Kruphix for its versatility and card selection vs. other decks), it has proven itself in testing. The low curve, speed, and raw power level of the cards in this deck is quite strong.
Sideboard
4 Magma Spray
2 AEtherspouts
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Counter target spell if you have a 4cc crit
2 Tap effect?
Despite the arrival of Jadelight Ranger and Ravenous Chupacabra, the deck still struggles in the late game, which is somewhat to be expected with a more aggressively tilted midrange deck. The lack of card draw aside from a low-power Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and the lack of recursion or late-game threats (no planeswalkers) means that the deck struggles against other midrange decks that have those types of cards (such as the blue splash). Ultimately, you are still at the mercy of the top of your deck, and without reach (or a manland like Hissing Quagmire), I think there may be better options.
I will be testing the splash more next.
Things I did like:
Walking Ballista is a great answer to Rekindling Phoenix.
Main deck Deathgorge Scavenger is actually quite strong, and something I would recommend in many green builds as GPG and Search for Azcanta seem to be everywhere.
So, wait, aside from Fetchlands, the deck loses almost nothing? (Wingmate Roc is a non-zero loss to the deck)
As the spoilers come to a close, and we see exactly what lands are available, building a mana base should become more workable. The new lands seem like a fine addition to the deck, and the deck should still be able to run enough color sources to play either Sylvan Advocate or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy on turn 2.
Sounds like a contender to me.
During spoiler season, I would like to use this forum to brainstorm the position of Bant Company post-rotation, and see what new cards may or may not slot into the deck.
So far:
It seems as if you can push the tempo aspect of Bant Company, play the full playset of Bounding Krasis, Reflector Mage, and the new Stitched Mangler.
None of the other cards really stand out.
Thoughts?
6-7 1cc creatures (4 Falkenrath Gorger, 3 new 1/1 Lifelink Vampire)
15-16 2cc creatures (4 Heir of Falkenrath, 4 Relentless Dead, 4 Asylum Visitor, 3 Olivia's Bloodsworn, 1 1R Madness Enabler)
10-11 3cc creatures (4 Olivia, 3 Drana, 4 Incorrigible Youths)
You are going to want to shave on creatures for some removal, probably 4 Fiery Temper, 2 new XR Madness Burn spell or some catch-all removal spell.
This deck's worst problem is going to be that Sylvan Advocate and Reflector Mage will probably still see a ton of play, and you either have to go over or through those cards. Heir of Falkenrath, Relentless Dead, Olivia's Bloodsworn, Olivia, Drana, and Incorrigible Youths all apply in this case.
So, expect more Goblin Rabblemaster-type cards in Standard in the near future.
Previously, Elvish Mystic limited all 1XX spells to Green, which was fine until Green received multiple 1XX spells that were powerful (Deathmist Raptor, Courser of Kruphix) and it forced everyone to play a Green-based aggro/midrange deck at the expense of all other decks. I really wanted to make a deck with multiple 3cc creatures and Elvish Mystic, but Temur strategies don't work because Savage Knuckleblade is 3 colors, and all other attempts to make Elvish Mystic into Hordeling Outburst (or similar cards) simply did not work. What other powerful, playable 3cc card in Standard can be played off turn 1 Elvish Mystic? It doesn't happen.
Also, have you ever tried to get the Mardu mana base to work consistently? Not possible.
Double life AND double card draw (aside from your draw step)!
That seems bonkers.
Plus, Ux gets the perfect necessary counterspell, B gets a cheaper Wrath effect that doesn't hit Tasigur (or Rhino, unfortunately) -- control got A LOT stronger in this set, probably because the aggro decks also became stronger/faster with Honored Hierarch, Kytheon, and new burn spells.
Against Gr Devotion Game 1 (where you would see Whisperwood Elemental), you have to try to tempo them out, and play Outpost Siege on Dragons, not Khans. Early Wild Slash on mana dorks + Goblin Rabblemaster/Seeker of the Way draws should put Gr on the back foot, forcing them to play large creatures defensively instead of offensively, and allowing you to run out Chained to the Rocks and Valorous Stance to force through more damage. Post-SB, you board in Dragons and Sarkhan, and just work really hard to keep them off enough devotion that a Polukranos will wreck your flyers. If it has two green pips, it needs to die. I also tend to find that Soulfire Grand Master is excellent against these lists since it can buy back Stoke the Flames and/or Valorous Stance. If they have a busted draw on the play, like most of Standard, they will probably overrun you. Move on to the next game, and chalk it up to variance.
-3 Lightning Strike, -4 Hordeling Outburst, +3 Stormbreath Dragon, +2 Sarkhan, +however many Valorous Stance you run in the board.
Zurgo Bellstriker
Foundry Street Denizen
Firedrinker Satyr
Akroan Crusader
Satyr Hoplite
Monastery Swiftspear
Dragon Fodder
That's a lot of use that Atarka's Command can go big with. Hordeling Outburst might be too slow, and you will definitely want to draw more cards to refill your hand.
The format is definitely changing with this set.
Just curious about a couple of key points about the deck.
1. Have we decided in what metagame the hive mind here prefers Brimaz to Ashcloud Phoenix, and vice versa? Sam Black seemed pretty insistent that neither card is where you want to be versus the Gx Midrange lists, but I definitely prefer Phoenix vs. mirror (game 1 at least, before they can bring in Magma Spray), UBx Control lists, and Gx Midrange, which means that I play Ashcloud Phoenix over Brimaz all day.
2. Have we decided what the 24th land should be: Wind-Scarred Crag vs. Evolving Wilds? This seems like a really key difference in card choices for such an important slot in the list. I would have thought we could come to some kind of consensus about this by now.
3. Is the RW Aggro list played by Ben Stark better or worse than the stock list that we predominantly showcase in this thread? Reasons?
So far, I have seen the metagame change to:
1. More Gr Devotion.
2. Possibly some more copies of UB Control.
3. More Jeskai Aggro over Jeskai Tokens.
In other words, I expect more Wild Slash, 3 toughness creatures, and sweepers.
What changes would you make to the list in anticipation of these differences in the metagame?
The core:
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Chained the Rocks
4 Stoke the Flames
(the only thing I would ever want to change about this is maybe -1 Stormbreath Dragon)
The metagame changes:
4 Lightning Strike (more 3 toughness creatures)
2 Wild Slash (to keep down the mirror mostly, probably some number of Magma Spray post-board)
2 Valorous Stance (to keep down the Gr Devotion Polukranos Game 1, plus respond to Crux of Fates)
2 Ashcloud Phoenix (tough to sweep, flies over Gr, solid blocker)
3 Outpost Siege (I could see playing 2 Siege, but I like 3, and dropping a land)
23 land
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Battlefield Forge
10 Mountain
5 Plains (no need for double white early due to no Brimaz)
Sideboard Changes
2 Elspeth (go big in the mirror)
3 Mastery of the Unseen (along with Outpost Siege, beats UB Control)
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Erase
3 End Hostilities (need to keep down the Devotion lists)
3 Arc Lightning (for the inevitable tokens)
1 Magma Spray (this is a better mirror breaker due to Ashcloud Phoenix)
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos (mirror breaker)
Thoughts?
Does the number of wide builds and devotion shells mean that End Hostilities needs to be part of the equation again, or do we just try to race with flyers? Brimaz doesn't hold the ground well against 5/5s....
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Temur Charm
4 Stoke the Flame
4 Arc Lightning or Lightning Strike
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Shivan Reef
5 Forest
2 Mountain
I actually like playing some decent amount of burn in the main deck of this list, since you are just going to kill your opponent as quickly as possible. That said, I have no idea if Blue is even necessary in this list, and it is a splash at most.
While the deck may actually want another early aggro creature instead of Lightning Strike/Arc Lightning (and it even may be Courser of Kruphix for its versatility and card selection vs. other decks), it has proven itself in testing. The low curve, speed, and raw power level of the cards in this deck is quite strong.
Sideboard
4 Magma Spray
2 AEtherspouts
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Counter target spell if you have a 4cc crit
2 Tap effect?