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  • posted a message on Flip a Coin.deck
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Nertak »

    Everyone is trying to win so everyone is building toward that. People need to conserve their resources.


    Because doing nothing is a winning line when you have 7 opponents who are expending theirs?

    Quote from Nertak »
    At first Chance encounter is a joke.


    Why? Doesn't the deck threaten to win with a single untap step using cards like Stitch in Time and Fiery Gambit? Not "100% probability of winning" but significantly higher than 0%.

    Quote from Nertak »
    Improvements can definitely be made but I have seen it go from joke to deadly incredibly quickly.


    Assuming turn 2 Thumb turn 3-4 Chance Encounter you can threaten to win on the following turn. I don't know how you can consider that a "joke" card and/or one that you don't need to worry about until later on.


    So the deck is bad because its too good at winning and everyone will team up against you to stop you from winning even though all their decks are also capable of suddenly winning?
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Flip a Coin.deck
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Nertak »
    Prid discounts this type of deck because he plays mostly large player ffas and says everyone will team up against you. Personally I doubt this because that would suggest you appear to be the most dangerous, and with 7 other players I have a hard time seeing how that would be the case until its too late.


    Just we're clear your argument is that the vast majority of the MTG population is unable to recognize the threat of Chance Encounter until it wins the game? This could obvious be true for you and the people in your meta. I won't profess to have intimate knowledge on your collective ability to read and/or employ reading comprehension. My argument is that rational human beings with reasonable reading levels can critically assess the threat presented by a card like Chance Encounter. That obviously won't hold true for 100% of players in 100% of metas but I'm working under the assumption that slave's opposition will.


    I said "Until its too late," not that people wouldn't know its a win condition. You have 8 players in the game in this example. Everyone is trying to win so everyone is building toward that. Your honestly going to tell me that you think this deck would seem like the biggest threat? One person is clearly running green ramp, another is running kiki jiki, 3 are running tribal decks like sliver, 2 are running infinite combo decks. This is going to be the biggest threat right away? Do your games just involve nobody playing any cards for the first 10 turns? People need to conserve their resources. At first Chance encounter is a joke. 10 counters needed is a lot. Its a threat but its something to worry about later. Then there are any number of combos to get crazy numbers of counters on it quickly. My friend's deck does run things to protect it like Planar Chaos and when you don't need it to search muddle the mixture. Then everything causing flips plus stitch in time plus fossil find suddenly you are taking 3 or 4 turns in a row and what seemed like a joke just won the game.

    I don't think my friend's deck is optimal. Improvements can definitely be made but I have seen it go from joke to deadly incredibly quickly.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Flip a Coin.deck
    Too often on this board we treat multiplayer as a static format. Prid discounts this type of deck because he plays mostly large player ffas and says everyone will team up against you. Personally I doubt this because that would suggest you appear to be the most dangerous, and with 7 other players I have a hard time seeing how that would be the case until its too late. That isn't my format so i fully admit I could be wrong. My playgroup rarely does pure large ffas. We mostly do 2v2, pentagram, 3v3, 2v2v2 and emperor. My friend has a flip deck. I have played on its team and against it many times. The deck is fun both to team with and play against.

    Its worth noting that Prid3 would never field this type of deck. The cards aren't inherently unfair. As for building a flip deck because you like the flavor, Prid says that ""Flavour" is an arbitrary cop-out that only exists to serve as a non-quantifiable variable in order to serve your personal whims and desires. Rather than justifying decisions with any reasonable or rational justifications you can simply state the "flavour defense" to wash your hands of personal accountability. It doesn't matter how, why or even if the deck works because you were only building it for "flavour" anyways. It's a defense mechanism employed to save-face should your creations fail to live up to (what people perceive to be) reasonable expectations. If the deck sucks, no biggie, you had to adhere to flavour so it wasn't your fault"

    In other words, you would only build a flip deck if you were insecure about losing. So its hardly surprising that prid would be against building it, since flavor is not something worth considering.

    Here is my friend's deck if you are curious as to what he runs.



    He hasn't updated it in a while. So i'm sure improvements can be made.

    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Kaladesh is going to be insane.
    What do you guys think saheeli Rai will go for? I want her for a stupid Scry deck I have that wins with flamespeaker adept. I don't want to spend a lot of money though since it is just a stupid scry deck that wind with flamespeaker adept. Think she will settle for a reasonable price or should I give up hope now?

    (her peroder amount is a little over $13 fyi)
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Prid3's Kaladesh Multiplayer Set Review
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Nertak »

    Got it, you can throw filters, fetches, shocks and everything to support your argument but if I do then somehow now price is a factor.


    I'm asking you for decks. Your argument is that the card has generic applications. I'm saying that it has niche applications. The decks that play Tendo Ice Bridge are very unique. Things like Amulet Bloom that can bounce it with Simic Growth Chamber, Bant Eldrazi decks that want to go turn 1 Noble Hierarch turn 2 Thought-knot Seer, very specific, weird decks that have unique play patterns. You don't see normal decks playing Tendo Ice Bridge. No Abzan or Jund list has them. America Control doesn't field them. Legacy/Vintage decks don't field it. I don't recall it doing anything in Standard.

    W.r.t to price, I'm not sure what your point is. Is your argument that all of players can afford to add Bayous and Verdant Catacombs to their lists? Because that hasn't been my experience in the slightest.


    My point is your argument is not rational. You listed the fetches, filters, shocks etc as cards you would play over aether hub. So I then listed the same cards as cards I would run over blooming marsh. Then you said well those are expensive. So I responded they were just as expensive when you listed them to support your argument. Now you are saying that tendo ice bridge never saw any play in legacy/vintage so its niche. That is just a completely preposterous thing to say as we both know that blooming marsh will never see any play in legacy/vintage. It won't see any play in modern either. That is a standard that 99.9% of cards can't meet including virtually every card in this set, many of which you gave fine grades. Yet those cards don't get niche reviews. You gave fumigate a C. Fumigate will NEVER be played in modern/legacy/vintage.

    You don't like aether hub and that is fine. I still maintain that you underestimate it. I don't like blooming marsh and really can't envision ever running it in anything. Lets say I underestimate it. Clearly we aren't gonna agree. No point in either of us wasting more energy on this.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Prid3's Kaladesh Multiplayer Set Review
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Nertak »

    Crumbling Vestige is not anywhere near as good. You are stuck holding it in your hand until you also have one of the off color card in your hand that you run it for and doing so could easily cause you to miss land drops. tendo ice bridge you play whenever and tap for colorless all day long till you need the colored mana.


    If you say so.

    Quote from Nertak »

    Running a 5 color deck not based on creatures is still not easy. Especially in agro metas. Running a deck with 8 city of brass will add so much damage to you. Gemstone mine completely vanishes. There are plenty of scenarios where tendo would be better.


    Fair, 5 color, noncreature decks that field lands which only tap for colored mana once? Those exist? That's not "niche"?

    Quote from Nertak »
    Finally by your own logic Blooming Marsh which you gave a B+ should be niche because please show me a situation where you would want to run it over bayou, overgrown tomb, twilight mire, woodland cemetery, verdant catacombs, Exotic Orchard


    Sure. What's the cheapest Bayou in TCGplayer? $120 bucks or something? What about the cheapest Verdant Catacombs? 70? Twilight Mire is 30 at best? I can think of hundreds of reasons to roll with alternatives.


    Got it, you can throw filters, fetches, shocks and everything to support your argument but if I do then somehow now price is a factor.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Prid3's Kaladesh Multiplayer Set Review
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Nertak »
    Reprinting tendo ice bridge as an uncommon and having it tie into a larger mechanic only gets a nitch rating? Tendo was a $9 card before Aether hub was leaked. So many cards are a bunch of colorless mana and then 1 colored mana like Madcap Experiment or Paradoxical Outcome. You are seriously underestimating it if you think its just niche.



    Don't forget that Crumbling Vestige is extremely similar and hasn't seen any play whatsoever.


    Crumbling Vestige is not anywhere near as good. You are stuck holding it in your hand until you also have one of the off color card in your hand that you run it for and doing so could easily cause you to miss land drops. tendo ice bridge you play whenever and tap for colorless all day long till you need the colored mana.

    Running a 5 color deck not based on creatures is still not easy. Especially in agro metas. Running a deck with 8 city of brass will add so much damage to you. Gemstone mine completely vanishes. There are plenty of scenarios where tendo would be better.

    Finally by your own logic Blooming Marsh which you gave a B+ should be niche because please show me a situation where you would want to run it over bayou, overgrown tomb, twilight mire, woodland cemetery, verdant catacombs, Exotic Orchard


    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Prid3's Kaladesh Multiplayer Set Review
    Reprinting tendo ice bridge as an uncommon and having it tie into a larger mechanic only gets a nitch rating? Tendo was a $9 card before Aether hub was leaked. So many cards are a bunch of colorless mana and then 1 colored mana like Madcap Experiment or Paradoxical Outcome. You are seriously underestimating it if you think its just niche.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Octopus Kraken Leviathan
    Since he is running Quest for Ula's Temple and deep-sea kraken already I would recommend clockspinning and everflowing chalice. Likely not in budget till it leaves standard but I think I would also try running thing in the ice. If you guys play a lot of team games then crush of tentacles should seriously be considered.

    Personally I don't like augury owl, mulldrifter or sea gate oracle in this deck. I also think some of the fatties you list are clearly better then others.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Spiders!!!!
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Nertak »

    Simply put the end result of your logic is everyone running the same cards and making the decisions on what to run purely by math.


    It's extremely time consuming and difficult to statistically prove what the optimal build for each deck is. It's a burden of proof so difficult to meet that you can't possibly hold someone else to it because you could never provide it yourself. This is especially true given that Magic is never played in a vacuum and so your individual card choices could vary wildly based on your own personal metagame needs.

    Quote from Nertak »
    An attitude that ruins any fun the game offers, and one that is particularly odd on a casual forum where the entire idea is to build fun decks.


    I'm extremely passionate about Magic and enjoy playing it. I almost always have fun slinging spells. It's possible to "enjoy playing Magic" and "enjoy winning." They're not mutually exclusive as you're suggesting.

    Quote from Nertak »
    Variety is what makes the game fun.


    That's what makes Magic fun? Variety? Do you spend your time reading those color swap books because they're filled with a variety of colors?

    People find Magic "fun" (a completely subjective term) for a throng of reasons. You're grossly oversimplifying things by trying to boil it down to exactly one variable. I agree that variety is part of what makes Magic fun but it's only a drop in the bucket.

    Quote from Nertak »
    Finally, your assertion that anyone who isn't by math running the best cards is using some sort of cop out defense mechanism is insulting not to mention incredibly condescending.



    Just so we're clear this has nothing to do with only building the best possible deck each and every time. Even I don't do that. I'm asking you "what practical value does flavour possess if flavour can be whatever you want whenever you want it to be?" Isn't it a self-fulling prophecy? I deem these cards flavorful therefore my deck adheres to flavour? How is that not frivolous self-gratification/a cop-out/a self-defense mechanism to circumvent failure? Let's say that we agree that I'm being condescending. Am I wrong? Any card can be deemed "flavourful" by anyone at any time for any reasons right? How isn't that a cop-out?


    Your entire speech is about projecting emotions onto other people. The narrative is that pride3 is better then those idiots. "They can't handle losing so they make all of these trap doors that they can call upon in the event that they lose." That is not the same as saying "I play to win and use any tool I can."

    I find it boring to run the same cards over and over. Thats it. None of the emotionally baggage you are throwing on me actually applies.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Spiders!!!!
    Quote from Prid3 »
    Quote from Xyx »
    The perversion that is changelings has forever tainted tribal deckbuilding. Frown It is sad that a tribal deckbuilder now faces a mutually exclusive choice of flavor and winning.


    Changelings are irrelevant. "Flavour" is an arbitrary cop-out that only exists to serve as a non-quantifiable variable in order to serve your personal whims and desires. Rather than justifying decisions with any reasonable or rational justifications you can simply state the "flavour defense" to wash your hands of personal accountability. It doesn't matter how, why or even if the deck works because you were only building it for "flavour" anyways. It's a defense mechanism employed to save-face should your creations fail to live up to (what people perceive to be) reasonable expectations. If the deck sucks, no biggie, you had to adhere to flavour so it wasn't your fault (even though no one actually cares that you imposed self-restrictions). Even if Changelings didn't exist it still wouldn't prevent people from pleading the flavour-th because they'd still find other ways to artificially restrict their deckbuilding decisions and give themselves an out in case it backfired miserably.


    Sarcasm is sometimes difficult to detect over the internet. If you are being sarcastic then ignore the rest of this

    I don't know what you are talking about. Flavor is everything. If I want to build an elf deck its because of flavor. Someone somewhere could present me with a statistical analysis showing that I would win more often if I built say a sliver deck instead. Mathematically, of all the tribes in magic the gathering, one tribe would win more often then the rest. According to you everyone should be running that best tribe because otherwise we are not being "reasonable or rational."

    Simply put the end result of your logic is everyone running the same cards and making the decisions on what to run purely by math. An attitude that ruins any fun the game offers, and one that is particularly odd on a casual forum where the entire idea is to build fun decks. In another thread you said you would run burgeoning in every green deck. I'm sure math would back you up on that, but my god is that boring. I have 23 decks right now. If I was running all the same cards in each of those decks I would have quit the game years ago do to lack of variety. Every green deck needs burgeoning every blue deck needs rhystic study every white deck needs land tax. Every deck period needs sol ring. Sooooooooo boring. Variety is what makes the game fun. Variety in what you play and variety in what your opponent plays. Finally, your assertion that anyone who isn't by math running the best cards is using some sort of cop out defense mechanism is insulting not to mention incredibly condescending. I can't speak for others by my worth as a human being is not linked to winning games of magic. I don't have to win to feel good about myself and I certainly don't need to make contrived back doors to protect my honor in the event that I lose.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Burgeoning vs wild growth
    Quote from Prid3 »
    "do you want to win games of Magic?" Burgeoning vastly outperforms Wild Growth 97% of the time and can figuratively win games on its own as early as turn 3. Turn 1 Burgeoning, turn 2 Windfall turn 3 untap with 9 lands in play. That's it. It's that simple.


    I understand your point, you don't have to respond with a replacement card but any argument involving windfall is really weak to me. Pairing something with a card that is so broken that its restricted in vintage and banned in legacy (its too old for modern or it would absolutely be banned there too) is where most of you guys lose me.

    I don't want to win games of magic bad enough to run the cards that are so overpowered that they ruin the game.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Burgeoning vs wild growth
    Wanted to know people's opinions. Do burgeoning and wild growth fulfill the same exact roles in a deck? and therefore one is just better then the other? Or do they do different things and the specifics of your deck will determine which card is actually better?

    Burgeoning does not give any mana. It lets you play your lands quicker so if you draw it early in a game you can front end your lands but unless you are stupidly mana flooded or have a strong card draw mechanism you won't actually end up with more mana late game then you would have without it. A deck with 24 lands and burgeoning still just has 24 cards generating mana.

    Wild Growth more directly gives mana. Its ramp early game and it also kinda functions as land 25-28. This makes it more likely that any card you draw will produce mana.

    To me burgeoning has much more potential to cascade when combined with other cards, but is less stable then wild growth. I don't view them as doing the same thing and don't think that one is always better then the other.


    Thoughts?
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Goad / Maddening Imp, Infect deck. Help needed
    With all of these -1/-1 counters floating around on your opponents stuff. All these +1/+1 counters floating around on your stuff contagion engine seems really good in this deck to me.
    Posted in: Multiplayer
  • posted a message on Spiders!!!!
    Quote from Xyx »
    Quote from Nertak »
    The point is I would not run it. Not in a spider deck, not in any deck.
    Fair enough, but what else are you going to put in a spider deck? Let's assume that we're building a Tribal Wars deck, so we need at least 20 actual "Creature - Spider" cards (or *sigh* changelings) to qualify.


    Even if I was interested in building a spider deck I would not build one currently. ishkanah, grafwidow is $10 right now. Once it leaves standard it will be 10 cents. I would wait. Also, I build legacy legal decks. No banned or restricted cards for me so no sol ring, mana crypt, demonic tutor, etc. For the sake of honor or whatever I won't run any shapeshifters.

    Spiders are a difficult deck to build. I don't deny that but here we go.

    Dragonlair spider is the best spider. The problem with it is it requires 2 red to cast and its 6 mana. I don't like splashing a color just for 1 card. Especially if that one card is difficult to cast. I also don't like that its 6 mana. I feel that any deck running a card that is 6 or more mana needs mana ramp. The thing is there is nothing else that is 6 or more mana that I want to run. Now i'm stuck investing in red and mana ramp just for dragonlair spider. I don't think its worth all of that. Sadly, I think my spider deck is cutting the best spider. (It also annoys me that it makes insects not spiders)

    The next best spider probably Ishkanah, grafwidow. Again I would wait till its out of standard and plummets in price. Its not as good a card as Wingmate roc and that went from $15 when it was in standard to $1.15 tcg play mid now. Ishkanah will drop even further. It also has its own set of problems. Its only good if you have delerium and getting delerium requires an investment. It also wants you to splash black for its ability. That is fine though. Spider spawning also wants your graveyard full and it also benefits from black. So the basis of the deck is Green with black splashed in built around Ishkanah, grafwidow and Spider spawning. A self decking mechanic seems advisable with these cards. I really like mesmeric orb. Better still I own them. Since virtually ever spider has more toughness then power assault formation gives the deck a nice boost in damage. Since i'm self decking I think I want 4 of most things since i'll lose some to the graveyard.

    So far the deck is

    Need some stuff to keep me alive. My group as very agro. deadly recluse and juvenile gloomwidow punish people for attacking early and still have some effect late game. I also can't see any reason not to run spider fog so arachnogenesis is in.



    Now its really just filling in the remaining slots with cards I like and adjusting the numbers so everything fits. sporecap spider hits hard with assault formation. I like commune with the gods to help get assault formation and to get cards in the graveyard. penumbra spider replaces itself.



    This is what I would playtest as my spider deck. Make changes from there. If most decks I play against are NOT tribal I would likely run coat of arms. If they are then I would never run it.



    Posted in: Multiplayer
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