When a deck has been put together for a while and thoroughly tested, I just get the feeling that changes don't happen very often. Out of my 6 decklists, I've added maybe 2 cards in total since Kaladesh just because they are tuned and nothing else that was released really moved the needle for me. It's pretty normal for a deck such as this to not have a whole lot of changes.
Dunno if you still play and update this deck, but I'm curious as to your opinion on Animation Module. At first glance, it's a self-contained Grimgrin-enabler with a bonus ability to boot. But you do need some fodder to get it started...
First, Animation Module is not bad. I don't run it myself as I didn't see something compelling enough to remove for it, but you wouldn't be wrong for playing it in your own list. It is just something that depends on your meta. I don't get many kills through Grimgrin getting commander damage, and even then, I don't want to be dumping the mana into it to try and one shot an opponent. Not to mention that I probably don't have that much mana to even get to the magical 21 power that I'd need and would overextend my board in the process (tapping out). I'd rather run Hatred or something if I was fixing to really pile on to Grimgrin and dome piece someone.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is cute and an intriguing card to me, but doesn't really fit here with what we are aiming to do. They're a sacrifice outlet, but not the kind that I think we want. I have hesitation towards sacrifice outlets that aren't providing strong benefit to us, are incredibly cheap (3 mana is a bit much I think). There are some nice Grave Pact interactions with them, but we have a sacrifice outlet in our command zone and a variety of other ones in the deck. The card is redundant, but not efficient enough to come in.
Faerie Artisans is one that I had seen, but not really considered here. It is a token producer, which is nice, and you get nice ETB value from it, even if the tokens are temporary. You also get to sacrifice the tokens in response. What I don't like about it, however, is that it is a 4 drop that doesn't give guaranteed value since opponents can play around it. While it is likely that -someone- is going to play a creature that will give you a token, 4 mana is a lot to pay for a rattlesnake when they can remove it or Grimgrin and you'd be losing its most compelling benefits. It would warrant testing, but at 4 mana, it is in a very competitive slot. 3-5 mana is the powerhouse of EDH curves and a card has to be great to make it into that range for me at this point. I don't want to appear as though I'm making the argument that, "it will get removed so it isn't worth playing," because that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that there has to be a lot to go right for it to be the benefit that you'd be hoping to get at 4 mana when you include it in the list and it is so easy for opponents to play around it that there are likely just better, cheaper, or more resilient ways to produce tokens or sacrifice fodder. All that said, I do really like the card, I feel like it would be decent in the list, and disrupting opponents' turns by forcing them to deal with it or play sub-optimally (i.e. playing worse creatures to give you a worse token copy) is certainly valuable. Certainly worth testing, possibly worth a slot, but it is hard to know without testing first.
Thanks for the interest in the list. As I stated back in September, I don't update it as much and didn't pursue full primer status because there just does not seem to be the interest in this particular type of Grimgrin list because hurrdurr zombie tribal sort of rules the design space around him. I get updates when people post on this thread, though, so feel free to continue the discussion here. I still have the deck together and the list in the OP is up to date, so I am happy to talk about it. I don't make many changes these days because once a deck is together for this long, it reaches a point where the only cards worth considering are new releases and, even then, they have to be a really good fit since this deck has narrowed in on a specific strategy. That means the generic "goodstuff" from new sets that often gets people hyped just doesn't move the needle here because any card that is being added really needs to mesh with the strategy.
Dunno if you still play and update this deck, but I'm curious as to your opinion on Animation Module. At first glance, it's a self-contained Grimgrin-enabler with a bonus ability to boot. But you do need some fodder to get it started...
I have been constructing a new thread for my own Grimgrin build, that I hope to post within the month. (something with primer quality takes work)
I have been playing with animation module quite a bit. I have been finding it in the win more category. While it does maintain grimgrin, I find myself often forgetting to pay for triggers, and you still need the creature to seed it. Right now I am debating replacing it. I almost never choose it over Tormod's crypt or skull clamp when I drop Trinket mage, and it is only really good for explosive growth on grimgrin. My deck includes enough good token makers, ETB utility creatures and reanimation that I do not lack for sacrifice fodder.
Faerie Artisans is cool idea I may need steal. I hadn't thought of them and they are worth testing.
I agree with pretty much all of what you said. What sort of Grimgrin list are you running yourself?
EDH is equal parts doing your stuff and trying to stop other people from doing theirs. Imo, part of the social contract is interacting with the board (read: destroying other people's things based on threat assessment). Players with no interaction aren't holding up their end of the bargain.
That article was an educational read, Sheldon. I appreciate the bear puns and the candid address of what really is a controversial topic. I hope you are doing well and hopefully on your way to recovery.
I've been a vocal advocate for the return of BaaC since it was removed. This article does change a bit how I feel about that. I miss having Rofellos in my Omnath list, but if I may not even get him back and potentially also lose Narset, TaN, DEN, Vorinclex, Winter Orb, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc. in the process of the separate list returning, then it is better off gone.
One thing that did bother me some is that you made the mental leap that just because the list returned meant that it should be used in a larger capacity than its previous incarnation in order to justify its existence. Prossh and Derevi were just as busted before it was removed yet they remained legal. As were Zur and Arcum (I don't think Narset existed yet). GAAIV is taxing, but not that ridiculous. Is there, then, a declared war on Stax effects in this alternate reality? Or is the implication that the list, to bother having it, needs to be more expansive than it was previously? This policy shift seems to be counter to the minimalist approach to banning that the RC has continually stood by.
Are we, in this world of your article, just not allowing things that toe the line any longer? That are strong, but tend to be cards that are run intentionally to be more cutthroat? I agree that there would certainly be a litany of cascading bans that would follow the changed philosophy of the BaaC list to include commanders that are prototypical of the competitive/cutthroat style without many more tame lists.
The crux of my concerns, I believe, is that the additional BaaC bans that you discuss are only seen in the light that they are because the social contract has already done its job with regard to their use in casual circles. Shouldn't bans be reserved for the cards that don't successfully do that?
Also, for the record, I deliberately built a less competitive Narset list that is still good (because I have difficulty deliberately powering down my decks below a certain threshold due to the aggregate strength of my playgroup) and notably runs zero extra turn or extra combat effects.
I think that you failed, in some respect, to address the fact that it is probable that most of these commanders don't have a ton of "casual" decks built around them because when they sit down at a table at a card shop, players are going to go by the commander's reputation for competitive application rather than the individual power level of the player's deck and focus that player out of the game. Ironically, in this situation, the player that builds the casual deck with the stereotypically "competitive" commander is the one that wouldn't get to play the game rather than the alternative that would lead to the hypothetical banning of that same commander.
In the end, though, the pragmatist in me says that begging for the return of the BaaC list, now, is more untenable than just dealing with the fact that I can't play with one of my favorite cards instead of a dozen of them. The adage, "be careful what you wish for," seems to be especially prophetic.
Of course, this could all just be a ruse to get people to stop asking about it for fear that you ban the whole world as a response: real scorched earth policy stuff. I'm not wearing my tin foil hat, though.
Depending on how fast your list is, I could see it being win-more. I run it, personally, and I am always happy to see it come up as it takes me from threatening to blowout win the majority of the time I can get it to stick.
One thing I'd be curious about is how good Paradox Engine could be in this deck with a draw engine + tap mana producer(like Doubling Cube). I could see you playing mono-Green storm (with a combat win-con or Helix Pinnacle if you can generally produce enough mana, which is possible). Potentially win-more if the draw engine and mana producer were going to win you the game normally, but it could be fun. Mono-G is far more complex than meets the eye.
I like OG Ulamog. I've been running him for a while and the Annihilator + GY shuffle combined with destroying on cast makes him the clear cut winner. I still run both him and Terastodon, but I think I'd side with original Ulamog if I had to pick.
I too like Courser and have debated her merits many times. It comes down to making it easier to get gas by filtering through your deck. As far as 3 drops go in mono-Green, I think she is excellent and is just generally a good card to be throwing out at that CMC. Every time I look to put Azusa in the deck, I shy away from her. 2 additional lands per turn is busted, but you need the two additional lands in your hand, which isn't super common, at least for me. I like that Gaea's Touch is more resilient and you can use it to repay for itself in a pinch where you need extra mana. While Azusa is great, I think we've gotten enough Green cards in the last few years that she isn't an auto-include.
Ah, yes. The old "greater community" ban list. You know, random strangers from the internet voting in open, easily manipulated polls to decide what should be banned and what isn't. Because that has more authority than a body of judges and high-level tournament players who literally created the format and are the reason it is so successful that you are here demanding that they be ousted. Oh and they do it well enough that WotC leaves them in charge, too. Go ahead, call it an appeal to authority, because I'm not wrong.
I can't believe you are as nice as your are to these -individuals-, Sheldon. They certainly don't deserve it.
OP, you and people like you have no qualification at all to run a ban list for a format. And the absolutes you speak in seem to be pretty Sith-y to me.
How is it that saying goes? Better the devil you know...
I may not agree with everything that Sheldon and the RC decide, but I don't think that I, or the majority of the community, would be stupid enough to take the reins away from them and give them to internet trolls instead.
Linvala is still one of the best hate bears in the game. She is excellent WITHOUT Living Plane. With it, it just makes her a more valuable card in the deck as a lock piece and an oppressive hate bear. With how good decks like Yisan, Breya, Derevi (does that work against her 1WUG ability?), Scion, Tasigur, Thrasios, Kydele, Captain Sisay, Ghave, Marath, Prossh, etc. are, it can outright turn a deck off. This doesn't even consider the non-legendary creatures with activated abilities that are used in lists. I'd say she is far more necessary than Elesh Norn, though Norn is also a very good card in the deck.
Living in California, I am pretty spoiled with good wine. Cyro, you should check out J. Lohr. They are a local winery near my home and their Riesling is very good and I've bought a bottle of it myself in the past.
Sheldon, you're a good person, and I have every confidence you will triumph. I feel Henry V would have something rather motivational for your coming war, St. Crispin or something about breaches...
How do you keep deck ideas fresh and avoid doing what you have done before while still building lists that last and you want to keep together for a while (years, sometimes)?
I doubt you play much constructed these days, but how do you feel about the new "Frontier" format being postulated? Poorly conceived replacement for Modern that will see the same problem with price spikes? or, total cashgrab for vendors to make bank on recently rotated Standard sets flooding the market? (admittedly, there is no winning for the player in this answer, and my bias is pretty clear).
Lastly, I'm going to be proposing to my girlfriend of 3 years very soon. She is the love of my life and I'm confident she is going to say yes. This makes me a bit nervous, though, and I feel pressured to make it perfect and from the heart. How did you ask your lovely wife to marry you and how did you come to settle on that plan?
Always good to have you on the boards. Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, and God Bless.
A little OT, but I think the meta will adjust to lifegain over time. We have a player that does the Test of Endurance style Oloro list and the only way to win against that is by going hard in the paint. It falls really hard to tempo play and the only real way to prevent the deck abusing life total is by swinging in. I feel like those you play against will realize, in time, that not chipping away at your life total throughout the game is what allows you to get into the situation with 100 plus life. Of course, it is more difficult to swing through a deck with good bodied creatures than an Oloro prison setup without harming your own board, but I think it is something people will adapt to when playing you.
I'm curious, how have you liked Ishai? I feel like it should be a 3 mana flyer if it is coming in on 1/1 because of how many things can just wreck it (cough, Marath). Does it get removed often? Does it get in for good damage? Do people ignore it due to its inevitability of getting large? The 3rd cast being 8 mana really makes me hesitant if it can't protect itself.
Reanimation potential of Karador is too good I think. None of the partners really further the deck's game plan, I feel. The Orzhov one that brings a creature back to hand every turn isn't bad, but I still think I'd prefer Karador.
No doubt that having an additional color is something that is pretty nice because you get access to a TON of other tools; you're absolutely right. I just don't find myself wanting or needing those cards. I've felt like this list is just about as tight as it can be for the last couple years and it has only gotten tighter as we've gotten some really amazing cards printed for us. I don't know if I'm sentimentally attached to the deck that we do have, but I just can't see myself cutting so many cards in order to add black.
When you add colors, there are always going to be more consistency issues even if, in a small sample size, they sort of worked out. It might be a couple percentage points, but it exists. I do think there are a ton of ways to make a good mana base without breaking the bank these days, though. I also think the colorless lands are a very underrated part of this deck's strength (Academy Ruins, Alchemists' Refuge, etc.) and only add to our utility.
As I've said, I already made an Atraxa counters list, so I won't be doing this, but the deck probably would be improved with Anguished Unmaking, Demonic/Vampiric Tutor, Reanimation Stuff, Mimeoplasm, but you have to sacrifice some of the creature-toolbox aspect in order to add straight value. It would be interesting for sure. Personally, Atraxa in the command zone is more appealing than the partners, at least for me.
I've built a +1/+1 counters Atraxa list already, so I'm not exactly looking to move away from Jenara. Not to mention, the Bant land base in Jenara is going to be far more consistent (which can't be undersold) and I really don't see a whole lot of slots in the deck to be cut in order to add a color be it Black or Red. Thrasios + Ravos would probably be the best of the 4-color options, but Bant is such a strong shard that I'm not looking to add Black with the list we already have.
You can choose him as the artifact. Easily recurrable and tutorable wrath on demand with a good body seems great. And you don't have to keep him if you want to get Jenara and a sword or something. Does a good job of clearing the mucked up battlefield, but a poor job of stopping specific threats as opponents get to choose to keep them.
Tragic Arrogance, however, is amazing if you opponents have more than one of anything because YOU get to choose.
That said, his limitations are more than made up for by his convenience I think. I'm probably cutting Supreme Verdict for him.
Cataclysmic Gearhulk anyone been playing this card? I haven't been around the boards much lately, but this came up a couple times recently for me where if I'd had this bad boy in the deck, I could have avoided a sticky situation, especially with how easy it is to tutor for creatures or cheat them into play with this deck.
First, Animation Module is not bad. I don't run it myself as I didn't see something compelling enough to remove for it, but you wouldn't be wrong for playing it in your own list. It is just something that depends on your meta. I don't get many kills through Grimgrin getting commander damage, and even then, I don't want to be dumping the mana into it to try and one shot an opponent. Not to mention that I probably don't have that much mana to even get to the magical 21 power that I'd need and would overextend my board in the process (tapping out). I'd rather run Hatred or something if I was fixing to really pile on to Grimgrin and dome piece someone.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is cute and an intriguing card to me, but doesn't really fit here with what we are aiming to do. They're a sacrifice outlet, but not the kind that I think we want. I have hesitation towards sacrifice outlets that aren't providing strong benefit to us, are incredibly cheap (3 mana is a bit much I think). There are some nice Grave Pact interactions with them, but we have a sacrifice outlet in our command zone and a variety of other ones in the deck. The card is redundant, but not efficient enough to come in.
Faerie Artisans is one that I had seen, but not really considered here. It is a token producer, which is nice, and you get nice ETB value from it, even if the tokens are temporary. You also get to sacrifice the tokens in response. What I don't like about it, however, is that it is a 4 drop that doesn't give guaranteed value since opponents can play around it. While it is likely that -someone- is going to play a creature that will give you a token, 4 mana is a lot to pay for a rattlesnake when they can remove it or Grimgrin and you'd be losing its most compelling benefits. It would warrant testing, but at 4 mana, it is in a very competitive slot. 3-5 mana is the powerhouse of EDH curves and a card has to be great to make it into that range for me at this point. I don't want to appear as though I'm making the argument that, "it will get removed so it isn't worth playing," because that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that there has to be a lot to go right for it to be the benefit that you'd be hoping to get at 4 mana when you include it in the list and it is so easy for opponents to play around it that there are likely just better, cheaper, or more resilient ways to produce tokens or sacrifice fodder. All that said, I do really like the card, I feel like it would be decent in the list, and disrupting opponents' turns by forcing them to deal with it or play sub-optimally (i.e. playing worse creatures to give you a worse token copy) is certainly valuable. Certainly worth testing, possibly worth a slot, but it is hard to know without testing first.
Thanks for the interest in the list. As I stated back in September, I don't update it as much and didn't pursue full primer status because there just does not seem to be the interest in this particular type of Grimgrin list because hurrdurr zombie tribal sort of rules the design space around him. I get updates when people post on this thread, though, so feel free to continue the discussion here. I still have the deck together and the list in the OP is up to date, so I am happy to talk about it. I don't make many changes these days because once a deck is together for this long, it reaches a point where the only cards worth considering are new releases and, even then, they have to be a really good fit since this deck has narrowed in on a specific strategy. That means the generic "goodstuff" from new sets that often gets people hyped just doesn't move the needle here because any card that is being added really needs to mesh with the strategy.
I agree with pretty much all of what you said. What sort of Grimgrin list are you running yourself?
I've been a vocal advocate for the return of BaaC since it was removed. This article does change a bit how I feel about that. I miss having Rofellos in my Omnath list, but if I may not even get him back and potentially also lose Narset, TaN, DEN, Vorinclex, Winter Orb, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc. in the process of the separate list returning, then it is better off gone.
One thing that did bother me some is that you made the mental leap that just because the list returned meant that it should be used in a larger capacity than its previous incarnation in order to justify its existence. Prossh and Derevi were just as busted before it was removed yet they remained legal. As were Zur and Arcum (I don't think Narset existed yet). GAAIV is taxing, but not that ridiculous. Is there, then, a declared war on Stax effects in this alternate reality? Or is the implication that the list, to bother having it, needs to be more expansive than it was previously? This policy shift seems to be counter to the minimalist approach to banning that the RC has continually stood by.
Are we, in this world of your article, just not allowing things that toe the line any longer? That are strong, but tend to be cards that are run intentionally to be more cutthroat? I agree that there would certainly be a litany of cascading bans that would follow the changed philosophy of the BaaC list to include commanders that are prototypical of the competitive/cutthroat style without many more tame lists.
The crux of my concerns, I believe, is that the additional BaaC bans that you discuss are only seen in the light that they are because the social contract has already done its job with regard to their use in casual circles. Shouldn't bans be reserved for the cards that don't successfully do that?
Also, for the record, I deliberately built a less competitive Narset list that is still good (because I have difficulty deliberately powering down my decks below a certain threshold due to the aggregate strength of my playgroup) and notably runs zero extra turn or extra combat effects.
I think that you failed, in some respect, to address the fact that it is probable that most of these commanders don't have a ton of "casual" decks built around them because when they sit down at a table at a card shop, players are going to go by the commander's reputation for competitive application rather than the individual power level of the player's deck and focus that player out of the game. Ironically, in this situation, the player that builds the casual deck with the stereotypically "competitive" commander is the one that wouldn't get to play the game rather than the alternative that would lead to the hypothetical banning of that same commander.
In the end, though, the pragmatist in me says that begging for the return of the BaaC list, now, is more untenable than just dealing with the fact that I can't play with one of my favorite cards instead of a dozen of them. The adage, "be careful what you wish for," seems to be especially prophetic.
Of course, this could all just be a ruse to get people to stop asking about it for fear that you ban the whole world as a response: real scorched earth policy stuff. I'm not wearing my tin foil hat, though.
One thing I'd be curious about is how good Paradox Engine could be in this deck with a draw engine + tap mana producer(like Doubling Cube). I could see you playing mono-Green storm (with a combat win-con or Helix Pinnacle if you can generally produce enough mana, which is possible). Potentially win-more if the draw engine and mana producer were going to win you the game normally, but it could be fun. Mono-G is far more complex than meets the eye.
I too like Courser and have debated her merits many times. It comes down to making it easier to get gas by filtering through your deck. As far as 3 drops go in mono-Green, I think she is excellent and is just generally a good card to be throwing out at that CMC. Every time I look to put Azusa in the deck, I shy away from her. 2 additional lands per turn is busted, but you need the two additional lands in your hand, which isn't super common, at least for me. I like that Gaea's Touch is more resilient and you can use it to repay for itself in a pinch where you need extra mana. While Azusa is great, I think we've gotten enough Green cards in the last few years that she isn't an auto-include.
I can't believe you are as nice as your are to these -individuals-, Sheldon. They certainly don't deserve it.
OP, you and people like you have no qualification at all to run a ban list for a format. And the absolutes you speak in seem to be pretty Sith-y to me.
How is it that saying goes? Better the devil you know...
I may not agree with everything that Sheldon and the RC decide, but I don't think that I, or the majority of the community, would be stupid enough to take the reins away from them and give them to internet trolls instead.
Sheldon, you're a good person, and I have every confidence you will triumph. I feel Henry V would have something rather motivational for your coming war, St. Crispin or something about breaches...
How do you keep deck ideas fresh and avoid doing what you have done before while still building lists that last and you want to keep together for a while (years, sometimes)?
I doubt you play much constructed these days, but how do you feel about the new "Frontier" format being postulated? Poorly conceived replacement for Modern that will see the same problem with price spikes? or, total cashgrab for vendors to make bank on recently rotated Standard sets flooding the market? (admittedly, there is no winning for the player in this answer, and my bias is pretty clear).
Lastly, I'm going to be proposing to my girlfriend of 3 years very soon. She is the love of my life and I'm confident she is going to say yes. This makes me a bit nervous, though, and I feel pressured to make it perfect and from the heart. How did you ask your lovely wife to marry you and how did you come to settle on that plan?
Always good to have you on the boards. Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, and God Bless.
I'm curious, how have you liked Ishai? I feel like it should be a 3 mana flyer if it is coming in on 1/1 because of how many things can just wreck it (cough, Marath). Does it get removed often? Does it get in for good damage? Do people ignore it due to its inevitability of getting large? The 3rd cast being 8 mana really makes me hesitant if it can't protect itself.
When you add colors, there are always going to be more consistency issues even if, in a small sample size, they sort of worked out. It might be a couple percentage points, but it exists. I do think there are a ton of ways to make a good mana base without breaking the bank these days, though. I also think the colorless lands are a very underrated part of this deck's strength (Academy Ruins, Alchemists' Refuge, etc.) and only add to our utility.
As I've said, I already made an Atraxa counters list, so I won't be doing this, but the deck probably would be improved with Anguished Unmaking, Demonic/Vampiric Tutor, Reanimation Stuff, Mimeoplasm, but you have to sacrifice some of the creature-toolbox aspect in order to add straight value. It would be interesting for sure. Personally, Atraxa in the command zone is more appealing than the partners, at least for me.
Tragic Arrogance, however, is amazing if you opponents have more than one of anything because YOU get to choose.
That said, his limitations are more than made up for by his convenience I think. I'm probably cutting Supreme Verdict for him.
Has anyone been running it?