Because I'm assuming that this will become the new primer pretty soon I figured that I would post here. I have been playing with 1-2 Bloodghast and having success. I know that since the DRS banning Scooze has been pretty popular, but I was finding that after a big cloud it is all I need to just finish the game out. By the time they get their lands back it is after 4+ draws and I will have had at least a land to bring back the Ghast. He synergies with Liliana of the Veil, which I have been running, but the new Nissa also looks pretty promising so I will have to give that a try. I will probably play this at Modern for the next week because I have wanted to go back to it for some time, so hopefully I can play more of a controlling build that has better focus on winning after the Death Cloud.
On a side note, I am not sure if it was ever mentioned in the last primer, but I have had some success with Phyrexian Totem. It gives a little bit extra for the Death Cloud, and you only really need one activation post-cloud to win. There are not threats to it at this point either because all of the opponents lands will be gone, and we are typically +3 lands ahead of the opponent when we cloud (at least that is what I have found). I know Treetop does the same thing, but I just want to start throwing ideas out there.
As far as the Sundering Titan goes, yes it is good. It wrecks three color decks, and as long as it isn't RG Scapreshift (which there isn't really much of anymore) then it is good.
Second, why would you run Tooth and Nail when you have Karn, Ulamog, Emrakul, etc..... It is just worse than anything else run in the deck currently.
Also where are your questions, you kind of just stated some cards that have been discussed in the last billion pages...
As for all of the comments about the new Vault, I have been doing some testing with it as a 3/1 split in O-stones and Vault (where my All is Dust used to be) and there are some extremely narrow corner cases when it is worse, but they only seem to happen when you are very far ahead. I have only hit about 2 problems with it in ~40 matches. Overall I like the Vault and will probably run it for a while but if I keep hitting matches where I exile my Karn 2 or 3 times then I will probably drop it.
I'm trying again 1x Life from the Loam in the sideboard, and it has been working quite well.
Comparing to Crucible, it does not die to artifact destruction and discard, and it is resilient to counterspell.
I normally side it vs decks with land destruction (wur, hatebear, bg, living end) or decks that needs specific lands (tron, scapeshift, where I search asap ghost quarter).
It can be retrieved at any time with a chromatic, if you need to crack the Relic.
It combos with its dredge ability, but it has a nombo with the eldrazi.
I think of it as a 5th sylvan scrying but immune to discard and aven mindcensors and shadow of doubts
I normally run one in my board for stores that I know have an abundance of Living end and Hatebears. It has worked out well. I also suggest even going to 1 forest in the main and having 2 Ghost Quarters. This with the Loam can destroy other manabases and catch people off guard a lot of the time.
Aggressive Mining seems mediocre. Without spells that ramp lands into play, it doesn't seem like it'd really do anything for us unless we were already insanely ahead. In which case, why would you need it?
I tested with Realms Uncharted a long time ago. It's basically just a more expensive Life from the Loam. There aren't enough utility lands to really capitalize on it. So it's just 3cmc into 4 damage. Essentially having the same problem as Grisly Salvage and its ilk. It's nifty but in the end it really doesn't do anything productive.
Waste Not does seem solid, especially with the Loam+Raven's Crime. The main problem I see with a deck like that, is you are going to start leaning more on GB and less on R. I see Assault getting cut from a list like that over time (and probably rightfully so) which would disassociate it from this primer's topic. I've considered building a GB discard deck that utilizes Waste Not in a manner similar to 8-Rack since that seems more linear and effective. It'd just fall away from being an Assault Loam deck. I'd say test it out when you can and see how shoehorning it in works out, since there is some overlap in strategy but don't try to force R in it if it doesn't make sense.
Ok, well Realms Uncharted was just a idea that I figured has been brought up a billion times before, I'd just never seen it on here.
As for waste not, I have been looking into a sort of Gristlebrand-Reanimator-Assualt-Loam lovechild hybrid. It is primarily GB and has a tiny splash of red in it. Once I get the list from the guy I am going to do my own version of it, since I already have been and then I can post it back here. I know it's not strictly Assault Loam, but it may offer up ideas to other people. I was thinking it would make for a good start for Waste Not.
I know your deck is revolving around having haste creatures, but you could also branch out a bit. Something like Ashling's Prerogative could let you run a more constant curve. Having almost all of the creatures at say 2cmc then burn spells at 1cmc could work. There would then be the chance of using Æther Vial to drop now hasted threats. Just a thought, because I know the more gimmicks you run the less consistent the deck becomes.
I would also be worried about a way to refill your hand after dumping all of these low cost spells. Maybe going black for something such as Sign in Blood or Night's Whisper could ensure that you have the gas to really finish off the opponent.
Also people seem to miss the great card advantage that can be gained through using tibalt.
if you build a deck around him and use cards like grave crawler, blood ghast, reckless wurm , fiery temper, squee then the draw back of discarding is negated and it means you draw a card and get a positive result.
even spells like ravens crime once you discard them can be played again and again so it adds to your resources rather than just simply discarded
This has been suggested through things like Fiery Temper, and everything you already suggested but OP doesn't seem to want to go that route. Personally I think it is the best direction for the deck. One problem that he may find is the lack of protection for Tibalt because all of his creatures are being sacced. The other problem is that all of the creatures that have good grave recursion can't block which doesn't protect you very much.
Couple of things. Playing three Karns is probably going to be a really bad idea. You are not RG Tron and trying to assemble the lands as fast as possible. My guess is that you will be getting Tron online sometime around turns 6-7 (if you live that long) so until then Karn is going to be a dead card in your hand.
Also why not run some Graven Cairns, they will let you filter for the double red for Anger the Gods, and all of the black spells in your deck. I would suggest running Pyroclasm too.
I'm not trying to play cute with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded, he's there because I'm already taking enough damage from Bitterblossom, Smallpox, and Blood Crypt and Dark Confidant just isn't where I want to be. I'm not trying to abuse his graveyard interaction, although Grim Lavamancer benefits greatly from it as well as Faithless Looting. He is in here to grab me more discard/resource depletion cards. I get what type of build your talking about, but I'm more into getting some cards into my hand versus getting some cards into the graveyard. The plan with him is to use up the early plays I have in the opener and make sure I can keep getting fuel. Chandra would have been nice here, but the curve just isn't right, and Bob mixed with everything else puts me on a fast clock where I need to make sure I have my threats. You need to control what the other player is able to do before you start your game plan, the exception being Bitterblossom.
Ok, I gut what you are saying, but I'll just say now that using Tibalt to "grab [me] more discard/resource depletion cards" is probably not going to work out as you would like because of the random clause. You will probably hit a lot of scenarios that you want an extra card, but also want to hold onto something.
Why not play Snapcaster Mage for the flashback on Bolts and such?
If you are going to run Tibalt, you need cards that will have an equal value form the yard. Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Lingering Souls, and basically anything with Madness could work. Make a Gatherer search for "Madness" as the rules text, as it may give you an idea of some cards to run.
Life from the Loam can restock your hand with a lot of lands so that you have less of a chance of discarding something relevant that you want. This could basically be built into a Jund Assault Loam deck that uses Raven's Crime and Flame Jab. I have tried it beofre, and it is mostly too cute to play Tibalt. I still suggest giving it another chance because it was an extremely fun deck.
The trick is that everything needs to have a lot of value when put into the yard, and that you don't want to get into the trap of building around Tibalt. He should only enhance your deck.
Lastly I think that Dark Confidant is an auto 4-of in the deck if you don't go the madness route. Keeping a very low curve is your best bet to have this idea work out.
I am very tempted to do two mainboard Spellskite's tbh. I think they are great. I have the Spreading Seas in there for the RG Tron match up mainly. No one in this thread seems to have a hard time with that deck but I would say it is 60-40 or worse for me.
RG Tron isn't that bad. You can really do two things I have found.
1) Let them get Tron online while spending that time stocking up counterspells. Once they begin to use their mana, they can only realistically cast one spell per turn for the first couple of turns. If you remand Karn or a Wurmcoil you have essentially casted a Time Walk with a cantrip. The problem with this is that they will eventually flood out, but if you can assemble a slaver lock in time then the matchup is really easy.
2) You can counter and bounce any early mana rocks and Sylvan Scryings to stop them from getting Tron until turns 5 or 6. Almost every turn they will tap out leaving them very vulnerable. This is usually the easiest way to play if you have some good early disruption in your opening hand. If you have more ramp, you can play the latter but they can outrace you.
The deck seemed to run smoothly, and never got hit too hard form the tempo lost in Smallpox. Because he was casting Pox on turn 2, he could discard a reanimator target then turn 3 play his land back up to 2, then cast Goryo's Vengeance bringing back whatever he discarded to win. The thing that he had going for him was the late game that his deck had built in, with the Ravens Crime Loam engine. If there is any interest I can try to recreate his list, or ask him for it? Has this sort of thing ever been done before?
The new Aggressive Mining seems like it could be in a slot as the fourth Assualt maybe. Playing it lategame will provide you insane card advantage, but in multiples will be a problem. The other thing is that it would have to change the gameplan a bit more, because if you want it to be the most effective we need lands in play. We can't just really stop at ~4 lands and then use the rest for Assualt damage. There would have to be a good stock of maybe 7 in play so that we could sac a land on each players turn to stock our hand with four cards.
I know there has also been discussion on Waste Not in the past, but it's going to be a very real card soon. Will it have any merit in the Jund shell? Just throwing that out there.
And lastly has Realms Uncharted ever been tested before? It seems like it would provide good card advantage for us. Being able to essentially draw 4 at instant speed is a pseudo-gifts for this deck, even if we don't have that many toolbox-like lands.
Would it be worth it to run 2 Crucibles mainboard to make Realms Uncharted amazing? It would eliminate any threat of Tec Edge and GQ as long as you drew it and the synergy with Realms seems really powerful. It would also provide synergy against Tron mirrors since you can recur your GQ.
You should think about it as "Will playing two sub optimal cards (in this deck) ever be better than one better/more streamlined one?" In most matchups there isn't any land destruction, so how would a maindeck crucible be relevant in these? The Realms Uncharted is also a dead draw on its own most of the time because it gives you opponent a choice.
What 4-5 cards would you be cutting for these anyways? Most of the deck is streamlined so taking some of the cards out and replacing them with a few sub-par ones wont help the game plan at all. Both could have a place in your sideboard.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ability won't even stop Karn from being Bolted at three loyalty, and loosing all them before dying. It will only protect lands and the 3-4 creatures we play (Not Emmy though, he doesn't even need it).
RDSRedemption, try to just update your posts with an EDIT at the bottom rather than double posting all the time just so you don't clog up the thread. Other than that thanks for trying out the deck!
Anyways, I have been paying with a singleton Enter the Infinite. It has been amazing as a "If this resolves then I win" card. The problem though is that it is a win-more card in the sense that if you can cast it and have it resolve, then you probably could have been cycling through your deck anyways. I feel that this is the same for Omniscience. If you resolve it, you have basically won the game. It is not hard to generate that mana so I think that it is a good idea to look into the options but remember that they are win-more cards. Also it is key to note that we still need to pay the X for Blue Sun's Zenith (in case someone didn't know).
Personally I am more of a fan of Epic Experiment. EE when cast is basically combining Enter the Infinite and Omniscience in a way that you get to cast it for free, and draw the card. It is a fixed Mind's Desire, but works fine in the case of our deck. Since we are primarily all instants and sorceries we will always be hitting cards that will do things for us. If you cast it for X = 10, or more, then you can stack all of your spells and essentially win.
This requires a red splash in the deck, but also opens us up to the options of Past in Flames, Lightning Bolt, and even Grapeshot as a win condition. If you want to go big you could even cast Worldfire of of EE and stack a Lightning Bolt behind it so once they both resolve you win the game!
Or if you wanted to you could reveal a Biorhythm of of EE and then Bolt them. The card just opens up tons of possibilities when cast.
The downside is that it dumps BSZ and Reality Spasm into the yard. There will be no shuffle effect form the BSZ, so this is where either a well timed Time Reversal comes in, or Past in Flames. This opens us up to graveyard hate. This comes in the form of Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, or Grafdigger's Cage as some examples. We can combat this with our new red splash by using cards like Lightning Bolt or Flame Slash for creatures, and Ancient Grudge for the artifacts (and affinity). This may seem to be turning the deck into a Twin or Storm deck, but I think some of the maindeck slots are too tight to be doing that. ....however playing some Tarmogoyf's seems good.......
The last thing I would mention with this is the color requirements. Although we only need one red source, by adding in things like Grudge, Bolt, PiF, etc... you need to start upping them. This could lead to the need of maybe a 3 Misty Rainforest, 3 Scalding Tarn split? I suggest that we could go down to maybe only 12 basics as 2 Mountians, 6 Forests, 4 Islands because it is easier to fetch blue with the shocks that are legal right now. Without being able to play shocks, or any other dual lands, having access to all of our colors is crucial.
In conclusion, I think that if you are playing any win-more cards then you should be playing EE because it is essentially 2 of them in 1.
P.S. - What do people think about Squelch in the board? It works great for Mono U Tron?
P.P.S. - For anyone who wants to pimp the deck, I suggest getting all Guru lands to fill in your basic lands. People will be impressed I guarantee it.
If you are not going to post anything relevant to the discussion than please don't bother posting. If you haven't realized yet, the deck is almost all jank. The thing that separates it apart form most of the things posted on here is that it wins. I doubt you have even tested this sort of deck at all.
The Helix Pinnacle was more of a joke, but the fact is that once we resolve it then there is no problem making upwards of 100 mana once we go off. I know its a narrow card, but the thread needs dumb options like this to create discussion and possibly stumble upon a good card.
On a side note, I am not sure if it was ever mentioned in the last primer, but I have had some success with Phyrexian Totem. It gives a little bit extra for the Death Cloud, and you only really need one activation post-cloud to win. There are not threats to it at this point either because all of the opponents lands will be gone, and we are typically +3 lands ahead of the opponent when we cloud (at least that is what I have found). I know Treetop does the same thing, but I just want to start throwing ideas out there.
Second, why would you run Tooth and Nail when you have Karn, Ulamog, Emrakul, etc..... It is just worse than anything else run in the deck currently.
Also where are your questions, you kind of just stated some cards that have been discussed in the last billion pages...
As for all of the comments about the new Vault, I have been doing some testing with it as a 3/1 split in O-stones and Vault (where my All is Dust used to be) and there are some extremely narrow corner cases when it is worse, but they only seem to happen when you are very far ahead. I have only hit about 2 problems with it in ~40 matches. Overall I like the Vault and will probably run it for a while but if I keep hitting matches where I exile my Karn 2 or 3 times then I will probably drop it.
As for waste not, I have been looking into a sort of Gristlebrand-Reanimator-Assualt-Loam lovechild hybrid. It is primarily GB and has a tiny splash of red in it. Once I get the list from the guy I am going to do my own version of it, since I already have been and then I can post it back here. I know it's not strictly Assault Loam, but it may offer up ideas to other people. I was thinking it would make for a good start for Waste Not.
I would also be worried about a way to refill your hand after dumping all of these low cost spells. Maybe going black for something such as Sign in Blood or Night's Whisper could ensure that you have the gas to really finish off the opponent.
Also why not run some Graven Cairns, they will let you filter for the double red for Anger the Gods, and all of the black spells in your deck. I would suggest running Pyroclasm too.
Why not play Snapcaster Mage for the flashback on Bolts and such?
Life from the Loam can restock your hand with a lot of lands so that you have less of a chance of discarding something relevant that you want. This could basically be built into a Jund Assault Loam deck that uses Raven's Crime and Flame Jab. I have tried it beofre, and it is mostly too cute to play Tibalt. I still suggest giving it another chance because it was an extremely fun deck.
The trick is that everything needs to have a lot of value when put into the yard, and that you don't want to get into the trap of building around Tibalt. He should only enhance your deck.
Lastly I think that Dark Confidant is an auto 4-of in the deck if you don't go the madness route. Keeping a very low curve is your best bet to have this idea work out.
1) Let them get Tron online while spending that time stocking up counterspells. Once they begin to use their mana, they can only realistically cast one spell per turn for the first couple of turns. If you remand Karn or a Wurmcoil you have essentially casted a Time Walk with a cantrip. The problem with this is that they will eventually flood out, but if you can assemble a slaver lock in time then the matchup is really easy.
2) You can counter and bounce any early mana rocks and Sylvan Scryings to stop them from getting Tron until turns 5 or 6. Almost every turn they will tap out leaving them very vulnerable. This is usually the easiest way to play if you have some good early disruption in your opening hand. If you have more ramp, you can play the latter but they can outrace you.
Life from the Loam
Griselbrand
Goryo's Vengeance
Raven's Crime
Pentad Prism
Lotus Bloom (I think I saw this.)
Faithless Looting
The deck seemed to run smoothly, and never got hit too hard form the tempo lost in Smallpox. Because he was casting Pox on turn 2, he could discard a reanimator target then turn 3 play his land back up to 2, then cast Goryo's Vengeance bringing back whatever he discarded to win. The thing that he had going for him was the late game that his deck had built in, with the Ravens Crime Loam engine. If there is any interest I can try to recreate his list, or ask him for it? Has this sort of thing ever been done before?
I know there has also been discussion on Waste Not in the past, but it's going to be a very real card soon. Will it have any merit in the Jund shell? Just throwing that out there.
And lastly has Realms Uncharted ever been tested before? It seems like it would provide good card advantage for us. Being able to essentially draw 4 at instant speed is a pseudo-gifts for this deck, even if we don't have that many toolbox-like lands.
What 4-5 cards would you be cutting for these anyways? Most of the deck is streamlined so taking some of the cards out and replacing them with a few sub-par ones wont help the game plan at all. Both could have a place in your sideboard.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ability won't even stop Karn from being Bolted at three loyalty, and loosing all them before dying. It will only protect lands and the 3-4 creatures we play (Not Emmy though, he doesn't even need it).
Anyways, I have been paying with a singleton Enter the Infinite. It has been amazing as a "If this resolves then I win" card. The problem though is that it is a win-more card in the sense that if you can cast it and have it resolve, then you probably could have been cycling through your deck anyways. I feel that this is the same for Omniscience. If you resolve it, you have basically won the game. It is not hard to generate that mana so I think that it is a good idea to look into the options but remember that they are win-more cards. Also it is key to note that we still need to pay the X for Blue Sun's Zenith (in case someone didn't know).
Personally I am more of a fan of Epic Experiment. EE when cast is basically combining Enter the Infinite and Omniscience in a way that you get to cast it for free, and draw the card. It is a fixed Mind's Desire, but works fine in the case of our deck. Since we are primarily all instants and sorceries we will always be hitting cards that will do things for us. If you cast it for X = 10, or more, then you can stack all of your spells and essentially win.
This requires a red splash in the deck, but also opens us up to the options of Past in Flames, Lightning Bolt, and even Grapeshot as a win condition. If you want to go big you could even cast Worldfire of of EE and stack a Lightning Bolt behind it so once they both resolve you win the game!
Or if you wanted to you could reveal a Biorhythm of of EE and then Bolt them. The card just opens up tons of possibilities when cast.
The downside is that it dumps BSZ and Reality Spasm into the yard. There will be no shuffle effect form the BSZ, so this is where either a well timed Time Reversal comes in, or Past in Flames. This opens us up to graveyard hate. This comes in the form of Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, or Grafdigger's Cage as some examples. We can combat this with our new red splash by using cards like Lightning Bolt or Flame Slash for creatures, and Ancient Grudge for the artifacts (and affinity). This may seem to be turning the deck into a Twin or Storm deck, but I think some of the maindeck slots are too tight to be doing that. ....however playing some Tarmogoyf's seems good.......
The last thing I would mention with this is the color requirements. Although we only need one red source, by adding in things like Grudge, Bolt, PiF, etc... you need to start upping them. This could lead to the need of maybe a 3 Misty Rainforest, 3 Scalding Tarn split? I suggest that we could go down to maybe only 12 basics as 2 Mountians, 6 Forests, 4 Islands because it is easier to fetch blue with the shocks that are legal right now. Without being able to play shocks, or any other dual lands, having access to all of our colors is crucial.
In conclusion, I think that if you are playing any win-more cards then you should be playing EE because it is essentially 2 of them in 1.
P.S. - What do people think about Squelch in the board? It works great for Mono U Tron?
P.P.S. - For anyone who wants to pimp the deck, I suggest getting all Guru lands to fill in your basic lands. People will be impressed I guarantee it.
almostall jank. The thing that separates it apart form most of the things posted on here is that it wins. I doubt you have even tested this sort of deck at all.The Helix Pinnacle was more of a joke, but the fact is that once we resolve it then there is no problem making upwards of 100 mana once we go off. I know its a narrow card, but the thread needs dumb options like this to create discussion and possibly stumble upon a good card.