Way back I was playing talismans as a way to ramp, but I was also playing sweepers maineck. I never wanted to play dorks because the sweepers would just kill them, but I was always a turn behind on my ramp because of it. Dorks provide you a mana advantage right from the start, allow for a T2 TKS, and can provide you more coloured mana when you have Caverns and temples in hand. Exalted is also really night on a Reality Smasher as it an attack past Anglers. Removing sweepers to the sideboard and playing dorks in the main is clearly the way to go.
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Feb 19, 2018Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
Feb 19, 2018Posted in: Modern
I'm working on what I'm calling the "Modern Compendium" which is essentially a database of every viable deck in the format. It's super long as you can imagine, so I'm not going to be done it anytime soon. Also with the limitations of the forums I can't sort it very user friendly which is annoying. This would be a good short term solution to the many-deck problem.Quote from Lantern »I'd be for option 2. The truth is... Until wizards lets us get data again, the old way of doing it is dead. No "tier list" exists without bias anymore. Modern has also evolved to be as diverse as legacy, there is a stupid amount of decks now.
So my suggestion would be Option 2- Make a sticky thread that has all Decks in it, with a short overview on the deck in it. That way there is a table of contents and new users can go to that to learn more. Lets be real... returning users subscribe to X amount of threads and dont browse really, only new users looking to get info. Give them that option.
Option 1 has too much bias, and does a bad job at being a tier list. Option 2 with tier list stickys is just doing a worse version of what we have now. Theres no good way to organize those threads in option two sans a table of contents. Option 3 doesnt change anything and has been lacking anyways.
My end goal would be one on the main page with every deck you could possibly play (Modern Compendium), then on in the Proven section to list all those decks, and one in the Deck Creation section for all the decks that miss whatever cutoff we set up for the Proven section. That way any reasonable deck without many result that falls down pretty far in deck creation may not be lost forever in the sea of threads with only a few posts. Having section specific stickies would be quite easy to do. I like that idea.
Feb 18, 2018Posted in: Modern
Yep. I'm ready for the salt to flow in full force again. Tron still doesn't have a GP win even after that other top 8 when it had 4 copies at the end of 2017. It's how the metagame works and people just don't get it...Quote from Lord Seth »So now that people have already cycled through Eldrazi, Grixis Death's Shadow, and Lantern, I guess Tron is going to be the next "OMG WAY TOO STRONG" deck of choice, even though it didn't have a single Top 8 (or Top 16, for that matter) in the preceding Grand Prix and this is a lame duck format anyway.
I want Tron to get a win before the next shift which I am expecting to speed up for fear of Jace. If it does then Tron isn't going to have much of a chance in that metagame.
Feb 17, 2018Glad to see interest for the deck is picking up again. I'll make a primer for it in the coming weeks since it will probably see some play now.Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
EDIT: Well it made top8 at GP Lyon. Looks like I should really make that primer now.... and I probably should have never removed it from Developing Competitive
Feb 17, 2018We're back for the third high-level event of the year!Posted in: Modern
Follow the stream on the Magic Twitch page or the text coverage here on the mothership.
I only just created this at round 6, so for everyone also tuning in now that is where we are at. Gabe Nassif (BR Hollow One) vs Thomas Langlotz (Boggles), and Nassif just thought the FTV Dryad Arbor was a forest and lost the match. He was dead pretty much any way, but I still can't wait to hear about that one for the next week....
Feb 16, 2018Posted in: Modern
And this is why I also had Option 1 as a way to sort the forums. If you look at that list of 79 decks which are playable from a FNM+ level, there are a handful of deck that have won or been in the top 32 of a semi-recent GP/PT. 'Proven' decks in the format could include these 30 decks:Quote from Albegas »That definitely seems like way too many lists for established. I don't think it would be a huge deal for veteran users on the site, but for newer players looking to get into Modern, I really question if they're even going to be willing to go through 3 whole pages of primers. Seems more likely that they'll only read the first two pages at most. I think being stricter on the Established requirements and moving most of those asterisked decks to Developing would actually give those decks more exposure than if we kept in Established only for them to be stuck on the last page collecting dust.
Burn, Jeskai Control, UW Control, Jund, Abzan, Mardu, Humans, Vizier Company, Gx Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund Death's Shadow, UR Storm, RG Titanshift, Affinity, Living End, Elves, Lantern Control, Knightfall, Blue Moon/UR Breach, Dredge, Boggles, Death & Taxes, GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Infect, Hollow One, Grishoalbrand, Ad Nauseam
Competitive fringe decks that we have seen be 9-0 at a GP before losing, or top 8 a SCG event, or won a PPTQ, or been competitively almost there for a while, etc... can fit into 'Established' as these decks:
Skred Red(won a GP but has been absent ever sine), Taking Turns, Ponza, 8Rack, RW Prison, Amulet Titan, UB Mill, KCI Combo, Grixis Contorl, BW Tokens, Mono U Tron, Cheeri0s, BW Eldrazi Processor, RUG Scapeshift, Bant Spirits, UW Tron, Soul Sisters, Zoo, Restore Balance, Bubble Hulk, BW Smallpox, Kiki-Chord, Jeskai Midrange
Then there has to be a choice made about putting every other remotely FNM viable deck into Established, or leaving it all in Developing (Deck Creation). A cutoff system could be something like Proven = GP/PT top 32 or better in the last 6-9 months. Established is everything else that isn't a new deck creation deck that has or had some relevance in the past, and Developing is the rest of it.
Proven is still those 30 decks mentioned above and everything else goes into Developing (Deck Creation). That will basically be a free for all for whatever is below the cutoff. I see the impact of this being that more traffic will be in that subforum meaning new decks will get pushed down faster. This is going to be one of the cons of this route but would make the forums cleaner in the long run.
Again the cutoffs and number of decks are just being thrown around right now, but it can give an idea of what the forums may look like post-move.
Feb 16, 2018Posted in: ModernAlright, so the majority of people are suggesting Option 2. I personally agree that trying to sort decks by archtype would be a pain without having 5+ sections, and even then I can guarantee there would be some backlash about it.Quote from 0evil_overlord0 »I think option 2 is best. Option 1 feels too close to just renaming Tier 1 and Tier 2.Quote from idSurge »I'm with Group 2 as well. The line between Proven and Established is too blurry. I'm still not convinced that UWR (pre Jace that is) is Tier 1. Never have been.Quote from axman »So theoretical question... would 8-rack (and other fringe decks like that) be considered established or development under option 2?
My biggest concern with a three part system is fringe decks that occasionally have good tournament finishes.Quote from Albegas »I definitely like the idea of just emulating the Legacy subforum at this point and going with option 2.
As for the subcategories, would it be good just to have an "other" category to include strategies that don't operate like traditional aggro/midrange/control decks but aren't really combo decks? Just from reading the State of Modern thread, it seems like for every player that would consider Prison tactics a subsection of Control, there's another that treats Prison as a distinct category. "Big Mana" can also be a bit vague given the differently methods that it can be done as well as the different end goals of those decks. It just seems like it'd be much easier to create a new category that encompasses all the non-traditional style decks than arguing semantics.Quote from Colt47 »I don't think there is much choice but to go with option 2, so that has my own vote. Going to save my rantings for WoTC and their information embargo another day.Quote from LennX »Option 2 with no deck sorting. We get to see more decks potentially since there is only 3 sections now.
Any decks that had won a GP/PT in the past 6 months get a sticky for Established. Any new/rough decks that top 8 (or top 32) in a GP/PT or wins a RPTQ stickied for Developing.
With options 1 and 2 we could also create a stickied thread in the main forums that is updated each month with the play percentages of each deck in the Proven/Established sections. This would still give players an idea of what decks to expect at tournaments in the current meta and would allow for a broader deck classification system.
This can be merged with the state of modern thread to at least have a "fresh" topic to discuss.Quote from Shmanka »I'm also with Option 2, it's really the only currently functional way I can forsee this going as the card pool increases.
Quote from Vissah »Option 2 for me.
I suggested this a couple times and I`m happy to see there is something being done about the whole Tier system.Quote from purklefluff »Option 2.
There's no particular reason to arbitrarily create a "best deck club" when the format is so changeable by location and metagame. Having a general large pool of the competitive options will allow more variation of interest and visibility for decks on the rise or the fringes of top results. It's fairer to everyone.
That said, option two would be well served to be complimented by an additional locked-for-discussion thread where mods or someone helpful posts top-32 and day-2 results in a blog style, just as they are released. This would enable the community to make more informed decisions about what decks to play instead of an arbitrary tier system.Quote from ikariw »I also vote for option 2 - maybe a poll would be goodQuote from ktkenshinx »Option 2 is fine, as long as we are okay with the "established" section being gigantic.
I strongly advise against sub-dividing any sections by archetype. There is too much bleed and too much controversy, especially on this forum, about what constitutes midrange/control/aggro/etc.Quote from c001357 »option 2, no archetype boards. theyre the biggest reason a few threads on the legacy boards are dead, i feel.
If we go ahead and lump all of the decks into one 'Established' section then it will look something like this:
BurnThat's a possible total of 79 decks for the Established section. At the default 25 decks per page, you'll possibly need to scroll for 3 pages just to find a specific thread. Also, all of the decks in that list with a * besides them could be in contention to get moved to the Developing section. Before you tell me that "X deck doesn't belong there", the requirements aren't set in stone yet and I just put them down on the more obvious decks that have fallen out of playablility as I made the list. If the intention is "Any deck that is FNM viable or better" gets to be in Established, then basically all of Deck Creation should be moved over. The cutoff would probably be "Able to Day 2 at a GP (or better) with the deck" at it's lowest requirements. Some decks like Delver variants, Ascendency Storm, Cruel Control, etc.. just don't exist out of FNM anymore so is it really fair to say that they should be in Established?
Grixis Death's Shadow
Jund Death's Shadow
Blue Moon/UR Breach
Death and Taxes
Mono U Tron
BW Eldrazi Processor
*UR Ascension Storm
This is simply to give an idea of what the Established section could look like with Option 2. Nothing is set in stone yet.
Feb 15, 2018As you may have noticed by now, the Modern subforum has been slow to update deck tiers and have a consistent method of categorizing each tier month-to-month. Ever since ktkenshinx stepped down from maintaining his (exceptionally good) personal tierlist we have been using external tierlists to maintain the forums.Posted in: Modern
When Wizards changed how they release MTGO data any site that collected this data (sites like MTGGoldfish, mtgtop8, etc...) begun using 'bad' data. We have tried using other tierlists, but they have all seemingly fallen off either due to the MTGO data change or lack of upkeep. The current tierlist that we were following is done by Lejoon, but that also hasn't been updated in a little while. As we become more and more out of date users being to ask about the forums tiering system. Now that Wizards is yet again changing how they release data, we are looking to implement a new structuring system to the fourms.
What we are looking to do is emulate the structuring system of the Legacy subforum. If you haven't seen it before, they group decks as either Established, Developing, or Budget. With such a deep card pool, there are many decks that are viable in a competitive setting. This allows the Established section to be broken down further into Aggro & Tempo, Midrange, Control, and Combo.
As the Pro Tour and GP Toronto have shown, Modern boasts some of the most diverse gameplay in Magic. There is an argument for no longer grouping decks into tiers since so many different decks are viable at the highest level of competitive play (and even more so at FNM's). Decks like Lantern Control or Boggles which are powerful enough to take down a PT/GP in the right metagame, spend most of their time sitting in the Tier 2/3 sections because they are not played much even though they are clearly established decks in the format.
Following this logic there are a few routes to take with restructuring the forums:
1) Change to Proven, Established, Developing, and Budget sections. Proven includes all decks with PT/GP results and still receive a good amount of play in the format (ie: Jund Loam even though it has a GP win, would not get to be Proven). This category includes pretty much all Tier 1-2 decks and select decks in Developing Competitive. Established will be for decks without PT/GP results, but are often seen at a FNM and could still win it. This would mean not as many decks from Developing Competitive make it into Established as the cutoff will be more strict, but some decks from Deck Creation will make it into Established. Established also includes decks that have been crippled by bans and have yet to make a comeback (ie: Bloom Titan). Developing (or Deck Creation) will stay as-is for all new brews to be posted there before they can move up to a new section. Current stickied decks will become unstickied. Budget will stay the same.
2) Emulate Legacy and change to Established, Developing, and Budget sections. Established includes all decks with PT/GP results and a good amount of play in the format. This includes pretty much all Tier 1-2 decks and a broader range of decks in Developing Competitive. Developing will be for everything else that isn't budget.
3) "Don't touch the structure of the forums and keep updating them according to X tierlist."
4) "How about you try [insert completely different system here]."
With options 1 and 2 we could also create a stickied thread in the main forums that is updated each month with the play percentages of each deck in the Proven/Established sections. This would still give players an idea of what decks to expect at tournaments in the current meta and would allow for a broader deck classification system. These percentages would probably come from a consistent source like MTGGoldfish or mtgtop8, so wouldn't be super accurate. We can also look into sorting decks by Aggro & Tempo, Midrange, Control, and Combo the same way that Legacy does... but there is also the problem with decks such as Tron and Lantern. They should really be called Big Mana and Prison respectively, but could also be considered Combo and Control decks depending on how we classify them... If Lantern is the only prison deck in Proven, does it really make sense to have a sub-forum only for it?
I will edit this later with an example classification of decks for each section.EDIT: Look at this and this post, or find them in the thread below.
The mod team would love to hear the communities feedback on this proposed change. We want to see if there is anything we missed, and be transparent about these changes nothing gets changed out of the blue. What do you like about this? What do you not like about this? We're going to leave this up for ~1 week before starting the trial run.
Feb 14, 2018Moved to the budget subforum from the main modern forum.Posted in: Budget (Modern)
Logic Knot is going to be a good counter for you. Opt also lets you play at instant speed, either flashing in a creature or using the cantrip. I'd include 4 of those.
Feb 14, 2018It's good in Devoted Druid decks since most of your creatures are 0 power mana dorks and Druids. The rest of the creatures are either 2 power, like Eternal Witness, Vizier of Remedies, or Duskwatch Recruiter so you can keep two of them usually. The biggest problem is that it is noncreature and therefor dilutes Collected Company, resulting in it seeing no play. I've thought about it as a sideboard card but at the end of the day there's just better things to be playing.Posted in: Modern
Feb 13, 2018There was a thread on Reddit a while ago that had it split up as GP wins and PT wins, but I couldn't find it... I am working on a side project called the Modern Compendium which I want to include this info in. Thanks LordSeth for compiling all of this! Would you by chance have the PT and GP only breakdowns of each deck winning?Posted in: Modern
Feb 13, 2018I'm locking this thread. This should either be reposted as a topic in the sites trading post if you are looking to sell cards. If you want to ask others about stores around you, or try to sell to people in your location then check out the Market Street.Posted in: Modern
Feb 12, 2018Since the thread had to be remade because the character limit was reached, I am archiving this thread to hopefully reduce confusion. I am changing the title from "Infinite Combo Reference" to "Infinite Combo Reference (Old Thread)", locking it, and archiving it. To see the current up to date thread please click here.Posted in: Modern Archives
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