Why are people play Oblivion Sower in SideBoards now?
How is that better than other cards?
I currently don't play it in my sideboard, but I could see a use vs U/W Approach since it arbitrarily removes cards from the game and could hit an Approach. I tend to agree with you that this is not better than other options. I've actually found that with 7 enchantment accelerators, I'm able to support Lost Legacy in that match-up which is nice support for a Thought-Knot Seer.
Question for you, do you think this morphs into some kind of dinosaur ramp with Ixalan?
Some Key points;
-Deserts are invaluable, its REAL nice having deserts in play already so you can fetch more exotic lands with HoP. Ruins gives you so much more reach with this deck, you can even hit planeswalkers. During the whole tournaments I only took one damage from the lands. I think going a full 9 deserts isnt a bad idea, 4 Oasis, 4 ruin and 1 scavenging grounds. Scavenging grounds has SO many applications in this meta, you HAVE to play at least one.
-I still wish I had 3 Ulamogs, I only cast him 3 times.
-I think eight 3 cmc ramp spells and full 4 HoP is right.
-HoD is a beast, at least 2 main!
-with weirding wood, sweltering sunds, beaneath the sands and sheltered thicket one can really dig through their deck to find cards.
Great Finish!
On your individual points, (1) I agree wholeheartedly on the deserts. I've taken more damage from land than you, but it's critical to have 1 in play for the turn 4 Hour of Promise. You lose so much value if you don't get the zombies... (2) I agree and I'm still playing three Ulamogs. I prefer him to World Breaker and Walking Ballista, but I've gone a slightly different direction (see below)... (3) I again agree with 8-9 3 cmc ramp spells. I split it a little differently... (4) I can see that, but I'm more comfortable in a slightly different direction... (5) I too have been impressed with how easy it is to see so much of the deck and I still don't think I cycle aggressively enough...
I took this deck through an MTGO league to a 3-2 finish. Should have been 4-1 if not for a major mistake...
Round 1 vs UW Spirits/Monument (1-0, 2-1)
Game 1 was decided by a couple of Fumigates keeping his board clear and my life total high enough. Game 2 was a mulligan to 5 followed by spirit beats. Game 3 saw a play mistake (wrong lands on Hour of Promise) not cost me a game as I was still able to cast 2 Ulamogs (after removing one with my own Descend upon the Sinful) with the 3rd in hand...
Round 2 vs RW Humans (1-1, 2-3)
Game 1 was a mulligan to 6 and a sound beating. I had no early interaction or sweeper to help against 3 creatures and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Game 2 was closer and, maybe, I used my 2x Cast Out on the wrong creatures, but the double striking Needle Spire still went a long way on me. This was one of the first games I lost with an active Authority of the Consuls.
Round 3 vs Mono B Zombies (2-1, 4-4)
Game 1 had me lead off with a blind turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. My life total never went below 20. Game 2 was a loss due to a misplay. I cast a World Breaker on a full board instead of the Descend upon the Sinful... Luckily Game 3 saw a perfect curve of turn 5 Fumigate and Turn 6 Ulamog (with a second Ulamog in hand).
Round 4 vs GB Cryptolith Rites (2-2, 5-6)
Game 1 was a mulligan and me just trying to figure out what he was doing. Authority of the Consuls kept me in the game to see what was going on, but at that point, I was dead to 2 swings from Ormendahl. Game 2 was understanding that Yahenni, Undying Partisan needs to be removed quickly and permanently followed up by a couple sweepers and Ulamog. Game 3 he had a fast flip on a Duskwatch Recruiter which flooded his board. No sweeper showed up on my side.
Round 5 vs UB Control (3-2, 7-6)
Game 1, I'm not sure he really understood the match-up and he may have made a couple mistakes. The result was a fight over an Ulamog with an Ugin trigger. It ended with me landing Ajani and removing the Gearhulk. My next Ajani activation revealed Balista, World Breaker, and Authority... Game 2 was pretty hard fought and once he lost his card advantage, I took over sweeping up The Scarab God with a Descend upon the Sinful netting an uncontested Angel...
At the end of the day, I was pretty happy with the white over red. Fumigate and Descend upon the Sinful made a nice sweeper suite, but the spot removal was really lacking.
I think my keys moving forward are:
(1) Lands make a huge difference. I never activated Sea Gate Wreckage, so while it sounds good - the consistency of another desert or colored mana source is probably better. As previously stated, you really want (at least) 1 desert by turn 4 to maximize the return on Hour of Promise. My own issue was tapping the right mana at the right time... Shorting yourself on white mana is never a positive...
(2) The deck needs better early interaction. White spot removal is not good. I sided in Blessed Alliance for a couple of Game 2s and almost always sided it back out for Game 3. Authority plus sweepers is great, but you have to find a way to the sweepers. Access to 'exile' interaction also seems to be a key right now... Not sure if the Pacifism approach would work, but maybe...
(3) Ajani Unyielding blew my mind. I had no idea how powerful he would be. Playing the enchantment acceleration with him is right as the card advantage he provides in the late game is back breaking for opponents.
(4) This was the first set of matches in a long time where play mistakes cost me in a big way either elongating the game or killing me on the spot. Many people talk about how ramp can 'lose to itself'. I want to quit adding to the number...
With nothing hitting the B&R list from Standard today, I'll probably make some minor changes and hit another league. If anyone has ideas, let me know! What are the thoughts on adding an additional color?
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
what are your reasons for:
1 magma spray
2 Traverse
1 harness
1 deliverance
?
how do you feel about:
walking ballista
4 MD Kozilek's return......and on that note
What if one Main decked against red and zombies to improve the matc up with control Sideboard?
My reasons for Magma Spray and Harnessed Lightning are that I feel like 6 spot removal cards are a good number. I split them to test if I like one over the other. I prefer Harnessed Lightning in most match-ups, but Magma Spray certainly has application vs Red and Zombies.
Dissenter's Deliverance is a utility card. Lately, I have been using it more for cycling to find land or a closer. I board it out in match-ups where the artifact kill is not needed.
Traverse the Ulvenwald is one I wanted to test to see if the mana screw issues could be solved simply. There is no non-creature ramp below 3 mana in a lot of lists that I have tried. I have played more than expected games where I sit on 2-mana for 3 turns, draw a land, and am dead on the board. I feel like we should be able to miss 1 land drop in the first 4 turns and expect to still play. I find if I miss 2, you're fighting uphill waiting for them to stall. If you miss 3, the game is lost. I feel much more confident keeping a hand with 2 lands and a Traverse than a hand with 2 lands and a Beneath the Sands. As you pointed out on the number of lands, it's probably a small, subtle difference, but it changes a lot of outcomes.
I've tried Walking Ballista and, as a 1-of, found it pretty 'meh'. It's best in the red match-up, of course, but I'm see a shift towards Zombies online.
Same thing with Kozilek's Return. It's certainly a boss vs red, but it's really a disappointment versus Zombies (and most other decks). I shifted to more maindeck Sweltering Suns, but could see keeping a Kozilek's Return in the board for added help vs Red.
That, to me, is the problem I am probably having right now. I think vs red, this deck should be set up in 1 way and versus other decks, even aggro, you would make different choices. Then again, I may just be playing wrong.
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
So, I've been playing around with this on MTGO and I have a few questions...
#1) How often do you expect to lose to mana issues?
I went through a league with Nassif's list and played numerous matches in TP. I went 1-4 through the league losing 3x to Ranumap Red (2-6 in games) and 1x to G/R Pummeler (1-2). In all 4 of my losses, I lost at least 1 game each match to flood (most literally ending with twice as many lands as spells) or screw (stuck on 2 lands for multiple turns with a 3-mana ramp spell in hand). I think I could have easily been 4-1 if the variance could be reduced. Ideas?
#2) What guidelines do you use on keeping an open hand? Can you ever keep a 5-land opener? How heavily do you require interaction to keep a 4-land hand?
If I know I'm playing aggro, I've kept a 5-land (at least 1 desert) hand with Kozilek's Return and Hour of Promise with some success. Outside of that, I've not seen any reason to keep a 5-land hand (even against slow decks). For the 4-land hand, I feel like you need at least 1 removal spell (3-mana sweeper or spot removal) in order to keep. This may be because of my experience with the hyper-flooding on MTGO, though. Too often I feel like you take a 4-land hand and turn it into 8 lands in play, 2 zombies, and 2 mana pump enchantments with no interaction and still more ramp left in hand...
In terms of play, I really like Nassif's mana base. I feel like it is very solid and flexible - 8 deserts with a Scavenger Grounds, Sanctum of Ugin and Sea Gate Wreckage, enough red to reliably cast Hour of Devastation... It seems to work very well. I'm still not as convinced of the 7 3-mana ramp spells, 1 Shefnet Monitor, and 4 Hour of Promise as I feel that with 26 lands this is just a hair too much ramp. What are people's experiences with some of the other set-ups?
In looking at the last 10 decks published on MTGgoldfish plus Nassif's list (2 weeks of data):
27 lands - 1 deck (14 ramp - 8 sweepers)
26 lands - 5 decks (12,13,14,15x2 ramp - 6,7,8,9x2 sweepers)
25 lands - 1 deck (13 ramp - 7 sweepers)
24 lands - 4 decks (13,14,15x2 ramp - 7x2,8,9 sweepers)
That feels pretty wide open.
I'd love to hear some options on making the deck play a little more consistently...
Censor is only good if you're playing an unaware opponent. It happens, but usually not twice.
RDW doesn't have the ability to really play around this though. They really want to go 1, 2, 3 or 2+1,4 for their first four turns. If you can censor anything, odds are it'll be a reasonably big road bump. This deck literally cannot afford to wait a turn for their entire game plan. Yeah people running regular decks play around censor, but RDW/RR specifically simply cannot play around it and you can and will light them up with it.
I understand that they won't play around it, but look at their board, even in the scenario you described... potentially 5 threats played in 4 turns and you countered 1, assuming you drew the Censor. You've likely taken 7-11 damage.
The red match-up, in my opinion, is about efficiency. Censor is bad here because we don't have time to cycle and countering a 1-2-mana creature for 2 mana is only 'fair' removal. If you are 'reliably' using this on 3- and 4-mana creatures, you are in good shape, but Essence Scatter is most likely better.
I'm working on a list with a more removal-heavy low-end to go with a more mid-range end-game. A couple of counters for mid-to-late game threats, but low reliance on them early.
The problem with this is that we have to load up on cheap removals and reduce card draw and counter which will make this deck really weak against the rest of the field.
I think the counters do need to go as long as Red is 20-40% of the meta. You could potentially keep a couple of them for the late game or to hit a Hazoret, but counters are best when they are efficient answers. UU1 for Disallow is a losing strategy when you are countering 1 mana creatures...
Essence Extraction is perfect removal against RE as it nukes early game beats + gives that extra life-gain padding. Strong sideboard choice.
Fatal Push is relevant enough, and scales well enough, to MB/SB split, or just straight MB. Cheap, cheap removal.
Dark Intimations is a bomb in its own right: carves up opponents creatures (hits indestructible) plus shaves their hand, while cantripping and restoring one of those trades you made earlier. But it also sets up God-Pharaoh for a back-to-back 7 and 7 to face. Dealing 14 damage in two turns with GP is absurd.
Unsubstanciate is huge for slowing down the game. Big tempo disruption.
Hell, Censor is a good CS in this matchup.
Essence Extraction is still not good. BB cost is very difficult for this deck, especially if you are tyring to make 3 colors. Collective Brutality would be better as it kills a creature and has the drain option.
The best black removal spell in standard is more than likely Grasp of Darkness as it answers every threat in the red deck. I so wish Fatal Push was more relevant for standard, but without fetch lands, it's just not nearly as versatile as it is in modern. In standard, it's a speed bump and vs Red, you're removing a 1-mana threat for 1-mana - very fair...
Dark Intimations is too slow and while it may hit an indestructible Hazoret (or other), the opponent chooses. Wonder if they will hit sac the Village Messenger or the Hazoret? If you are casting this at 5 and it's 'working', you're already winning. If you follow this up with a 7-mana sorcery-speed walker and can go -4, -4 for 14 damage, you could've done just about anything...
Censor is only good if you're playing an unaware opponent. It happens, but usually not twice.
I agree that opting for black is probably the better way to go. We could also mention grasp of darkness to deal with hazoret and glorybringer. However, I wonder if doomfall might be a better card in the main. We can either pick hazoret out of hand or wipe their board and force them to sacrifice hazoret. In non aggro matches, we still get the benefit of disruption. What do you think?
Doomfall has the problem that it is their choice. I like the versatility, in general, but it's too slow in my opinion. Taking a card on turn 3 doesn't affect the board, so you would have to follow it up with a sweeper. Using it to remove a Hazoret after a sweeper requires an open turn from them, so I'm not sure that's going to be too reliably effective.
The deck doesn't play itself, so I imagine some folks who are picking it up for the first time don't know the best avenues of play for each scenario, but enough about that. I've had success with it, and will probably stream the rest of my competitive league this weekend, currently 1-0 with first match against UR control.
Now, the changes. Gifted Aetherborn is a great card and I won't cut it. Here's why: Deathtouch. Sure, lifelink is all popular these days because of Ramunap Red, but deathtouch is the keyword that makes this 2-drop worth it. Kills Bristling Hydras and Torrential Gearhulks and Electrostatic Pummelers and Ammit Eternals all day long, which is important in this deck. Contraband Kingpin just gives lifelink to a 1/4 body. I'll stick with my Wurmcoil Vampire.
Yahenni's Expertise I'm still looking at. I like 3 toughness sweepers for matchups where Bygone Bishop or Kari Zev or Sylvan Advocate can get out of hand if not dealt with.
Censor stays. It's a one mana cycler. It counters stuff. There's no downside.
Hollow One is still good, but I may make the land/rotbeast addition to see if I like it. Nimble Obstructionist isn't just a cycler, he's (she's?) also a flash 3 power evasive threat if we're playing fair magic. We play fair magic a lot.
Fetid Pools stays. You need a critical mass of cyclers to make the deck consistent, and cutting a free dual land that also cycles is not the way to add consistency. Ipnu Rivulet also stays, as it's ability not only can grow your grave to give your vile manifestations oomph, I've used it a few times to mill away my opponent's Approach the Second Sun.
Flaying tendrils underperforms, collective brutality underperforms, and the three cards that were cut are such good tempo plays that I begin to wonder if the streamer has read them. 1CMC instant that wins the mirror or blanks Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk. 1CMC flash enchantment that renders any threat useless basically. And a 1 CMC nonland boomerang that also casts from grave to make opponent pitch two cards (possibly including the one you bounced).
All said, I don't like the changes. It pigeonholes the deck as a God-Pharaoh's Gift deck, which can be hated easily. As to your suggestion that GPG is a do nothing token generator, it's simply much much better than that. I invite you to play some matches with or against the deck.
I don't know that anyone is arguing that the deck can't be successful. The bigger question is, how competitive is it in the current meta?
I want to believe that this deck is 'better' than the other Gift decks because you don't need to rely on 'randomly' sending cards to the graveyard for reanimation. The problem is that the reanimation targets are weaker than alternatives, i.e. Lurching Rotbeast < Angel of Invention.
You also make the statement, "We play fair magic a lot" which begs the question, is this a 'good' fair magic deck? That point may be arguable, but this isn't something that I would necessarily play vs Ramunap Red. Censor, Vile Manifestation, and Gifted Aetherborn are all good, early cards, but I'm not convinced they will consistently buy you the time to get to turn 5, drop an Archfiend of Ifnir and then cycle on the next turn to sweep.
Personally, I feel like Gifts should be a focused combo for Game 1 with a 'fairer' component post-board.
What about a more basic answer to Ranunap Red? One of the top performing U/R decks ran sideboard Pia Nalaar and deck of other types I've seen run Filigree Familiar. It may put us off a full control plan, but speedbumps with upsides are good speed bumps to have. Lifegain, kill a creature and draw a card. All seem good alongside some cheap removal to stem the bleeding until you can take control of the game.
Also, what do you all think of Savage Alliance? Damo da Rosa ran a pair in his sideboard for the mirror. It hits most of their drops, plus one of anything bigger with escalate. Not great in other match ups, but something to know it's there.
How often will they really be speed bumps, though? Red has a lot of 'target creature cannot block' effects and relying on your 3 drop to act as a speed bump doesn't seem that reliable unless your removal package can cover the rest.
Savage Alliance seems interesting, but we really need an answer to Hazoret.
the only reason why I'm favoring ub over uw is because of ifnir. reanimating champion with archfiend of ifnir in play just wipes anyboard. may not happen too often but its just so fun putting -1/-1 counters on hazoret
For me, it just feels very reactive instead of proactive. I can certainly understand the joy of sweeping your opponent, but that's a lot of setup to not just win...
I've been brewing up a BW list as well, I think Crested Sunmare is a wincon to look at especially against Red. With so many ways to gain life on each turn, Crested Sunmare can easily take control of games if it resolves. Gifted Aetherborn is a really good card too.
I've toyed with Oketra's Monument as well and I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it in the BW since it doesn't help Gifted Aetherborn get out quicker.
T2 Lone Rider ---> T3 Essence Extraction is a pretty neat play, even though Lone Rider isn't rotation proof you can still pick him up for super cheap if money is why you're trying to keep it rotation proof.
Other great finishers and threats are going to be Angel of Invention and Gisela the Broken Blade (not rotation proof)
While I agree that Crested Sunmare can close if it resolves, I think the early interaction needs to be there to get the turn 5 to cast it. Oketra's Monument doesn't do enough in my opinion and after playing a few games Gisela the Broken Blade, it's disappointing that she doesn't survive any of the black sweepers.
Sadly I have had no opportunity to test my list as I've been abroad, the first run will be FNM this week. I'm planning to load the sideboard with lots of removal and some Flaying Tendrils and Fumigates, plus Dispossess for the GPG and Gearhulk decks.
Something a little like this:
If you expect decent builds of Ramunap Red, You'll want 4x Grasp of Darkness (it's the only answer to Hazoret) in the main and Authority of Counsels slows them down a lot.
I know there will be at least 2 God-Pharoah's Gift decks around as well as mono-red, so have to be prepared for that, and Control is generally popular at my store. Not 100% sure on the SB yet, would like input on what needs to go there
I think the sideboard depends a lot on how tough each match-up is. BW Eldrazi seems a little more aggro than where I might go with the build, but it could be good in this meta.
I think good sideboard cards are: Authority of Counsels, Collective Brutality, Scarab Feast, Crook of Condemnation, and some kind of sweeper.
A streamer (forgot who) played ShinyFirefly's current decklist in a 5-game series without success. When showing his own version of the deck, some notable differences included:
* 3 Contraband King replaced Gifted Aetherborn. It's easier to hit, survives more removal, and still has the necessary lifelink for reanimation.
* 3 Yahenni's Expertise came in as -3/-3 wipes the majority of the board while still allowing for another play.
* Censor got chopped b/c it didn't add to the gy's creature count.
* Hollow One and Nimble Obstructionist got cut for their large cycle costs and being unwieldy. An additional land, gate, and rotbeast took their place.
* Fetid Pools were removed b/c their ETB tapped property made the early turns inconsistent. Ipnu Rivulet, likewise, got the boot since our dual lands required basics.
* Flaying Tendrils and Collective Brutality came into the sideboard while Scarab Feast, Spontaneous Mutation, and Consign // Oblivion got the boot.
I'm not 100% sold on all the changes, but I do find they take the deck in an a more streamlined direction. All things considered, the deck itself leaves me questioning what we're truly trying to exploit. God-Pharoh's gift is essentially an unreliable, 4/4 token generator that doesn't have much of an immediate impact. We're not abusing insane ETB shenanigans like other gift decks and I've yet to find an opponent who truly feared a non-evasive, hasted X/4.
I bolded what I agree a lot with on the U/B build and, to a degree, some of the alternative builds of Gift Reanimator. Reanimator decks succeed because they are able to generate an advantage that leads to inevitability. Look at Modern and Legacy. The reanimation targets are beasts. Simply slowly putting X/4s on the battlefield doesn't automatically do create enough of an advantage. Yes, you can win games, but I don't feel like it's good enough to push the archetype. These decks are easily sideboarded against with a lot of hate available.
Right now, (imo), Marionette Master and Angel of Invention are the two best reanimation targets to create an advantage. (I've also been tinkering with an Apocalypse Demon as an immediate finisher.) Is there room to get more powerful reanimation targets into the deck?
I'm very interested in brainstorming what a BW midrange deck might look like. I feel like this could be a good meta choice. Access to lifegain, sweepers, early removal, discard... Sounds very interesting!
The Oblivion Sower was for the Temur Energy match-up. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35794_Ramp-Of-Approval-Grand-Prix-Washington-DC-2nd.html Makes sense and it seems to have worked well for him. He ended up like 8-0 over two days vs Energy...
I currently don't play it in my sideboard, but I could see a use vs U/W Approach since it arbitrarily removes cards from the game and could hit an Approach. I tend to agree with you that this is not better than other options. I've actually found that with 7 enchantment accelerators, I'm able to support Lost Legacy in that match-up which is nice support for a Thought-Knot Seer.
Question for you, do you think this morphs into some kind of dinosaur ramp with Ixalan?
Great Finish!
On your individual points, (1) I agree wholeheartedly on the deserts. I've taken more damage from land than you, but it's critical to have 1 in play for the turn 4 Hour of Promise. You lose so much value if you don't get the zombies... (2) I agree and I'm still playing three Ulamogs. I prefer him to World Breaker and Walking Ballista, but I've gone a slightly different direction (see below)... (3) I again agree with 8-9 3 cmc ramp spells. I split it a little differently... (4) I can see that, but I'm more comfortable in a slightly different direction... (5) I too have been impressed with how easy it is to see so much of the deck and I still don't think I cycle aggressively enough...
I took this deck through an MTGO league to a 3-2 finish. Should have been 4-1 if not for a major mistake...
4 Forest
2 Fortified Village
4 Hashep Oasis
2 Plains
1 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Scattered Groves
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Shefet Dunes
4 Shrine of the Forsaken
CREATURES (7)
2 World Breaker
2 Walking Ballista
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ajani Unyielding
ENCHANTMENTS (12)
2 Authority of the Consuls
3 Gift of Paradise
4 Weirding Wood
3 Cast Out
SPELLS (13)
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
4 Fumigate
4 Hour of Promise
2 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Farm // Market
1 Spring // Mind
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Solemnity
2 Linvala, the Preserver
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Thought-Knot Seer
Round 1 vs UW Spirits/Monument (1-0, 2-1)
Game 1 was decided by a couple of Fumigates keeping his board clear and my life total high enough. Game 2 was a mulligan to 5 followed by spirit beats. Game 3 saw a play mistake (wrong lands on Hour of Promise) not cost me a game as I was still able to cast 2 Ulamogs (after removing one with my own Descend upon the Sinful) with the 3rd in hand...
Round 2 vs RW Humans (1-1, 2-3)
Game 1 was a mulligan to 6 and a sound beating. I had no early interaction or sweeper to help against 3 creatures and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Game 2 was closer and, maybe, I used my 2x Cast Out on the wrong creatures, but the double striking Needle Spire still went a long way on me. This was one of the first games I lost with an active Authority of the Consuls.
Round 3 vs Mono B Zombies (2-1, 4-4)
Game 1 had me lead off with a blind turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. My life total never went below 20. Game 2 was a loss due to a misplay. I cast a World Breaker on a full board instead of the Descend upon the Sinful... Luckily Game 3 saw a perfect curve of turn 5 Fumigate and Turn 6 Ulamog (with a second Ulamog in hand).
Round 4 vs GB Cryptolith Rites (2-2, 5-6)
Game 1 was a mulligan and me just trying to figure out what he was doing. Authority of the Consuls kept me in the game to see what was going on, but at that point, I was dead to 2 swings from Ormendahl. Game 2 was understanding that Yahenni, Undying Partisan needs to be removed quickly and permanently followed up by a couple sweepers and Ulamog. Game 3 he had a fast flip on a Duskwatch Recruiter which flooded his board. No sweeper showed up on my side.
Round 5 vs UB Control (3-2, 7-6)
Game 1, I'm not sure he really understood the match-up and he may have made a couple mistakes. The result was a fight over an Ulamog with an Ugin trigger. It ended with me landing Ajani and removing the Gearhulk. My next Ajani activation revealed Balista, World Breaker, and Authority... Game 2 was pretty hard fought and once he lost his card advantage, I took over sweeping up The Scarab God with a Descend upon the Sinful netting an uncontested Angel...
At the end of the day, I was pretty happy with the white over red. Fumigate and Descend upon the Sinful made a nice sweeper suite, but the spot removal was really lacking.
I think my keys moving forward are:
(1) Lands make a huge difference. I never activated Sea Gate Wreckage, so while it sounds good - the consistency of another desert or colored mana source is probably better. As previously stated, you really want (at least) 1 desert by turn 4 to maximize the return on Hour of Promise. My own issue was tapping the right mana at the right time... Shorting yourself on white mana is never a positive...
(2) The deck needs better early interaction. White spot removal is not good. I sided in Blessed Alliance for a couple of Game 2s and almost always sided it back out for Game 3. Authority plus sweepers is great, but you have to find a way to the sweepers. Access to 'exile' interaction also seems to be a key right now... Not sure if the Pacifism approach would work, but maybe...
(3) Ajani Unyielding blew my mind. I had no idea how powerful he would be. Playing the enchantment acceleration with him is right as the card advantage he provides in the late game is back breaking for opponents.
(4) This was the first set of matches in a long time where play mistakes cost me in a big way either elongating the game or killing me on the spot. Many people talk about how ramp can 'lose to itself'. I want to quit adding to the number...
With nothing hitting the B&R list from Standard today, I'll probably make some minor changes and hit another league. If anyone has ideas, let me know! What are the thoughts on adding an additional color?
Thanks!
My reasons for Magma Spray and Harnessed Lightning are that I feel like 6 spot removal cards are a good number. I split them to test if I like one over the other. I prefer Harnessed Lightning in most match-ups, but Magma Spray certainly has application vs Red and Zombies.
Dissenter's Deliverance is a utility card. Lately, I have been using it more for cycling to find land or a closer. I board it out in match-ups where the artifact kill is not needed.
Traverse the Ulvenwald is one I wanted to test to see if the mana screw issues could be solved simply. There is no non-creature ramp below 3 mana in a lot of lists that I have tried. I have played more than expected games where I sit on 2-mana for 3 turns, draw a land, and am dead on the board. I feel like we should be able to miss 1 land drop in the first 4 turns and expect to still play. I find if I miss 2, you're fighting uphill waiting for them to stall. If you miss 3, the game is lost. I feel much more confident keeping a hand with 2 lands and a Traverse than a hand with 2 lands and a Beneath the Sands. As you pointed out on the number of lands, it's probably a small, subtle difference, but it changes a lot of outcomes.
I've tried Walking Ballista and, as a 1-of, found it pretty 'meh'. It's best in the red match-up, of course, but I'm see a shift towards Zombies online.
Same thing with Kozilek's Return. It's certainly a boss vs red, but it's really a disappointment versus Zombies (and most other decks). I shifted to more maindeck Sweltering Suns, but could see keeping a Kozilek's Return in the board for added help vs Red.
That, to me, is the problem I am probably having right now. I think vs red, this deck should be set up in 1 way and versus other decks, even aggro, you would make different choices. Then again, I may just be playing wrong.
Here's the list I was playing:
4 Forest
4 Hashep Oasis
2 Mountain
3 Ramunap Ruins
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Sheltered Thicket
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
4 Abrade
1 Harnessed Lightning
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
4 Kozilek's Return
1 Beneath the Sands
2 Gift of Paradise
4 Weirding Wood
2 Hour of Devastation
4 Hour of Promise
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Shefet Monitor
3 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Walking Ballista
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
2 Game Trail
3 Hashep Oasis
2 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Sheltered Thicket
3 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Abrade
1 Harnessed Lightning
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
1 Kozilek's Return
3 Sweltering Suns
1 Beneath the Sands
2 Gift of Paradise
4 Weirding Wood
2 Hour of Devastation
1 Neheb, the Eternal
4 Hour of Promise
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Shefet Monitor
2 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
#1) How often do you expect to lose to mana issues?
I went through a league with Nassif's list and played numerous matches in TP. I went 1-4 through the league losing 3x to Ranumap Red (2-6 in games) and 1x to G/R Pummeler (1-2). In all 4 of my losses, I lost at least 1 game each match to flood (most literally ending with twice as many lands as spells) or screw (stuck on 2 lands for multiple turns with a 3-mana ramp spell in hand). I think I could have easily been 4-1 if the variance could be reduced. Ideas?
#2) What guidelines do you use on keeping an open hand? Can you ever keep a 5-land opener? How heavily do you require interaction to keep a 4-land hand?
If I know I'm playing aggro, I've kept a 5-land (at least 1 desert) hand with Kozilek's Return and Hour of Promise with some success. Outside of that, I've not seen any reason to keep a 5-land hand (even against slow decks). For the 4-land hand, I feel like you need at least 1 removal spell (3-mana sweeper or spot removal) in order to keep. This may be because of my experience with the hyper-flooding on MTGO, though. Too often I feel like you take a 4-land hand and turn it into 8 lands in play, 2 zombies, and 2 mana pump enchantments with no interaction and still more ramp left in hand...
In terms of play, I really like Nassif's mana base. I feel like it is very solid and flexible - 8 deserts with a Scavenger Grounds, Sanctum of Ugin and Sea Gate Wreckage, enough red to reliably cast Hour of Devastation... It seems to work very well. I'm still not as convinced of the 7 3-mana ramp spells, 1 Shefnet Monitor, and 4 Hour of Promise as I feel that with 26 lands this is just a hair too much ramp. What are people's experiences with some of the other set-ups?
In looking at the last 10 decks published on MTGgoldfish plus Nassif's list (2 weeks of data):
27 lands - 1 deck (14 ramp - 8 sweepers)
26 lands - 5 decks (12,13,14,15x2 ramp - 6,7,8,9x2 sweepers)
25 lands - 1 deck (13 ramp - 7 sweepers)
24 lands - 4 decks (13,14,15x2 ramp - 7x2,8,9 sweepers)
That feels pretty wide open.
I'd love to hear some options on making the deck play a little more consistently...
I understand that they won't play around it, but look at their board, even in the scenario you described... potentially 5 threats played in 4 turns and you countered 1, assuming you drew the Censor. You've likely taken 7-11 damage.
The red match-up, in my opinion, is about efficiency. Censor is bad here because we don't have time to cycle and countering a 1-2-mana creature for 2 mana is only 'fair' removal. If you are 'reliably' using this on 3- and 4-mana creatures, you are in good shape, but Essence Scatter is most likely better.
I'm working on a list with a more removal-heavy low-end to go with a more mid-range end-game. A couple of counters for mid-to-late game threats, but low reliance on them early.
I think the counters do need to go as long as Red is 20-40% of the meta. You could potentially keep a couple of them for the late game or to hit a Hazoret, but counters are best when they are efficient answers. UU1 for Disallow is a losing strategy when you are countering 1 mana creatures...
Essence Extraction is still not good. BB cost is very difficult for this deck, especially if you are tyring to make 3 colors. Collective Brutality would be better as it kills a creature and has the drain option.
The best black removal spell in standard is more than likely Grasp of Darkness as it answers every threat in the red deck. I so wish Fatal Push was more relevant for standard, but without fetch lands, it's just not nearly as versatile as it is in modern. In standard, it's a speed bump and vs Red, you're removing a 1-mana threat for 1-mana - very fair...
Dark Intimations is too slow and while it may hit an indestructible Hazoret (or other), the opponent chooses. Wonder if they will hit sac the Village Messenger or the Hazoret? If you are casting this at 5 and it's 'working', you're already winning. If you follow this up with a 7-mana sorcery-speed walker and can go -4, -4 for 14 damage, you could've done just about anything...
Censor is only good if you're playing an unaware opponent. It happens, but usually not twice.
Doomfall has the problem that it is their choice. I like the versatility, in general, but it's too slow in my opinion. Taking a card on turn 3 doesn't affect the board, so you would have to follow it up with a sweeper. Using it to remove a Hazoret after a sweeper requires an open turn from them, so I'm not sure that's going to be too reliably effective.
I don't know that anyone is arguing that the deck can't be successful. The bigger question is, how competitive is it in the current meta?
I want to believe that this deck is 'better' than the other Gift decks because you don't need to rely on 'randomly' sending cards to the graveyard for reanimation. The problem is that the reanimation targets are weaker than alternatives, i.e. Lurching Rotbeast < Angel of Invention.
You also make the statement, "We play fair magic a lot" which begs the question, is this a 'good' fair magic deck? That point may be arguable, but this isn't something that I would necessarily play vs Ramunap Red. Censor, Vile Manifestation, and Gifted Aetherborn are all good, early cards, but I'm not convinced they will consistently buy you the time to get to turn 5, drop an Archfiend of Ifnir and then cycle on the next turn to sweep.
Personally, I feel like Gifts should be a focused combo for Game 1 with a 'fairer' component post-board.
Is a white splash completely unreasonable?
How often will they really be speed bumps, though? Red has a lot of 'target creature cannot block' effects and relying on your 3 drop to act as a speed bump doesn't seem that reliable unless your removal package can cover the rest.
Savage Alliance seems interesting, but we really need an answer to Hazoret.
For me, it just feels very reactive instead of proactive. I can certainly understand the joy of sweeping your opponent, but that's a lot of setup to not just win...
While I agree that Crested Sunmare can close if it resolves, I think the early interaction needs to be there to get the turn 5 to cast it. Oketra's Monument doesn't do enough in my opinion and after playing a few games Gisela the Broken Blade, it's disappointing that she doesn't survive any of the black sweepers.
If you expect decent builds of Ramunap Red, You'll want 4x Grasp of Darkness (it's the only answer to Hazoret) in the main and Authority of Counsels slows them down a lot.
I think the sideboard depends a lot on how tough each match-up is. BW Eldrazi seems a little more aggro than where I might go with the build, but it could be good in this meta.
I think good sideboard cards are: Authority of Counsels, Collective Brutality, Scarab Feast, Crook of Condemnation, and some kind of sweeper.
Have you tested yet?
I bolded what I agree a lot with on the U/B build and, to a degree, some of the alternative builds of Gift Reanimator. Reanimator decks succeed because they are able to generate an advantage that leads to inevitability. Look at Modern and Legacy. The reanimation targets are beasts. Simply slowly putting X/4s on the battlefield doesn't automatically do create enough of an advantage. Yes, you can win games, but I don't feel like it's good enough to push the archetype. These decks are easily sideboarded against with a lot of hate available.
Right now, (imo), Marionette Master and Angel of Invention are the two best reanimation targets to create an advantage. (I've also been tinkering with an Apocalypse Demon as an immediate finisher.) Is there room to get more powerful reanimation targets into the deck?