Since you seem to imply that I claimed that chumpers are an issue for Scion of Darkness rather than Void Beckoner, which was claimed to be the quicker finisher in the message to which I was replying, please read my previous reply again in the context of what I was responding to.
That is not what I was implying - I was agreeing with you. Early game, Scion will either "steal" their best blocker or go unblocked. This makes it stronger than simply having trample and can give value even when the opponent's graveyard was empty at the start of combat (early value is a concern you both expressed).
Fair. It came off as correcting my position because it was a reply to me and started with 'FWIW' which carries the implication that I had said something wrong.
I think that I agree with this being a pretty valid consideration when it comes to the value that Scion provides, even if it is a kind of pseudo-punisher mechanic in that respect (they choose what blocks it) and does not account for token blockers.
That is definitely an interesting one, even if I wonder how much it would burn when it gets through on average. The fact that it is so good as a defensive creature definitely helps since you are not entirely reliant on the primary effect for value with the card. I would have to check if I have a suitable slot open, though.
Scion of Darkness doesnt seem like a very good reanimation target. It has no protection, only creates value after it deals damage and if you reanimated it early (which is ussually the game plan in reanimate style decks) the odd are you don't have a target in your opponent's graveyard. Sure, it can put itself in the graveyard but so can Void Beckoner which finishes the game more quickly
when reanimated.
Except when they can chump. I think that it is important that it gets less value early, though. I was not very interested in it and now I am even less so. But trample is a better keyword than deathtouch in this instance.
FWIW, If the opponent chumps Scion of Darkness, assuming the blocking creature is not a token, you get to reanimate the best creature they chumped with.
Since you seem to imply that I claimed that chumpers are an issue for Scion of Darkness rather than Void Beckoner, which was claimed to be the quicker finisher in the message to which I was replying, please read my previous reply again in the context of what I was responding to.
Scion of Darkness doesnt seem like a very good reanimation target. It has no protection, only creates value after it deals damage and if you reanimated it early (which is ussually the game plan in reanimate style decks) the odd are you don't have a target in your opponent's graveyard. Sure, it can put itself in the graveyard but so can Void Beckoner which finishes the game more quickly
when reanimated.
Except when they can chump. I think that it is important that it gets less value early, though. I was not very interested in it and now I am even less so. But trample is a better keyword than deathtouch in this instance.
Lotleth Troll? Oh my. I had a playset from way back. Definitely a good inclusion. My second Golgari slot has been kind of open, too, currently occupied by Korozda Guildmage.
What are your most wanted downshifts? Mine is definetly Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, she doesn't look like it would break anything and Vryn Wingmare feels awful to play with
I cannot remember exact ones right now but I feel like something like Blood Scrivener could be nice. It's got a powerful enough effect to be hype but in limited, it would not really break anything by being uncommon so there is a realistic chance of getting it. Mostly utility stuff right now rather than anything bomby, I would say.
I remain a big fan of the GY Incarnations and still even run Valor since the effects are just so strong. I also have live experience playing with them and I think that they remain really strong. Wonder, in particular, can help any big finishers that have their other bases covered also get evasion in decks like Reanimator. Given how much more (aggressive) looting we have access to these days, the incarnations ought to be better than they have ever been, unless the corresponding proliferation of associated keywords counts as a larger opposite factor.
Yep, I put in the new Rumor Gatherer from Capenna, but Mentor is definitely better.
Yeah, I was also about to go 'bye, Rumor Gatherer, we hardly knew ye', but then I got to thinking how important this kind of CA is in white and I think that I might try and stuff both in. The effect is still rare enough to be worth two slots despite the direct competition between the two, it feels like.
Finally able to post my thoughts on the set here now that I am home.
Overall? I agree that it is too deep on Commander-only and multiplayer mechanics. I still really loathe venturing and thus Initiative, even if I see its power level. And dice. The d20 mechanic also sucks, and I even removed the more powerful dice cards like Clay Golem from my CU/be recently because I the mechanic is just so bad for MtG. That said, there is a good number of cards listed below.
Likely Testing: Beckoning Will-o'-Wisp: The base stats are passable and me likey group pumps on sticks. Crystal Dragon: White still struggles with big creatures and +1 mana to Serra Angel for a helpful early mode feels nice. Githzerai Monk: Mass taps on a stick - with flash - feel like they must be good, and the body is still half-decent. Greatsword of Tyr: A very interesting way to get this effect with 'haste' in white. Lulu, Loyal Hollyphant: Another decent body with a repeatable mass pump effect. But might prove too cute. Alora, Merry Thief: Nice cross-synergy on a stick with decent stats. Sapphire Dragon: Conditional counters into finishers, even if both are slightly overcosted? Still a very good deal. Bonecaller Cleric: I think that the value is there, even (and perhaps especially) outside dedicated reanimator. I would still compare this to Monstrous. Guildsworn Prowler: Excellent value thanks to Deathtouch. I am surprised to have seen so little interest in this. Amethyst Dragon: Similar to the blue one. Removal with a decent finisher to back it up is nothing to sniff at. Insufferable Balladeer: This basically takes out a blocker for two rounds. For 2 mana. Livaan, Cultist of Tiamat: That this is a Prowess rather than a spellsliger trigger than the ability to target other creatures make this the best variant of this thus far in my opinion. Reckless Barbarian: It does not require tapping and a 2/2 is still decent in red. Two-Handed Axe: Combat trick into a pretty unique piece of equipment. Wilson, Refined Grizzly: Lovely keyword soup. Yum-yum. Noble's Purse: Interesting variant on Sphere of the Suns. Rug of Smothering: I agree on this being a kind of Eidolon of the Great Revel for Peasant.
The new Thriving Gates: Uninteresting but proven good.
Interesting: Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward: I agree with the comparison to Ivy Lane Denizen. Too much of a one-trick combo enabler that works with a bunch of similar cards. Banishment: We got a Detention Sphere. Probably less upside than other 4 mana O-ring variants. Blessed Hippogriff: Good but kind of uninteresting and going from 3 mana to 4 mana feels like a big jump for this kind of effect. Ellyn Harbreeze, Busybody: Interesting way of doing CA in white but a little too parasitic for that mana investment. Rescuer Chwinga: Making that a may is kinda interesting but removes combo potential. Candlekeep Inspiration: It is cute but does not increase your board presence in a deck where you only really get board presence if you draw specific enablers. There are better finishers for spellslingers. Irenicus's Vile Duplication: Interesting clone effect. Actually even better in spellslingers because it is a sorcery. Mystery Key: 3 mana and a hit for 3 cards is not bad at all. Vhal, Candlekeep Researcher: Still a lot of mana to use on other things. But still perhaps a bit situational for the mana investment. Winter Eladrin: Just basically another Man-O-War, better than the others. Sarevok, Deathbringer: This being symmetrical might be a little too dangerous. If it was only conditional, it would be excellent. Stirge: Early creatures that replace themselves are always of some interest. Viconia, Drow Apostate: Nice value on a passable body but a little too unreliable. Zhentarim Bandit: Certainly interesting but the stats make it unlikely to generate much value. Carefree Swinemaster: Pretty good token generator, all told. Dread Linnorm: This effect does a lot of things and looks better tagged onto a decent creature. Erinis, Gloom Stalker: Interesting kind of ramp and GY value on a good body. Halsin, Emerald Archdruid: Still a bit too conditional for a 4 mana initial investment but strong. Split the Spoils: Great value - if you have enough suitable cards in the GY. Cadira, Caller of the Small: The potential for exponential growth is hard to ignore. Oji, the Exquisite Blade: Plays two parts for purposes of blink decks. Bronze Walrus: Scry 2 on ETB tagged onto a mana myr is not bad at all. Dire Mimic: I hear that mimics were good in their native environment and a 5/5 on turn 3 or as a surprise blocker can certainly still hurt.
I would say that the biggest benefit of Terramorphic et co over thriving lands relate to the GY, specifically, for things like Delirium. I do wonder if a second set of Thriving lands would be better than Vivid lands, though...
People on the Pauper side seem pretty excited for Initiative right now. Given how backbreaking Monarch can be, I am starting to see the benefit. However, I still really, really hate venturing as a mechanic and thus, will almost certainly not include those cards. But what are others' takes here on the power level and whether the mechanic is worth supporting, given the hassle?
I like Bonecaller Cleric, too. If it was something like a 1/1, it would definitely be overcosted. But a 2/1 for 2, while no longer all that great, is still a body that can do things while you wait for the right moment. It is particularly nice since it pulls double duty as reanimator can struggle with needing so many specific parts. This is early board presence / a chumber in addition to a reanimation spell (even if the other roles are not essential to reanimator). I suppose that upgrading it to whatever is in the GY later in a midrange deck or such is also not a bad deal. I would play a 'Monstrous: Becomes target creature in your GY' card with those mana costs, probably.
Fair. It came off as correcting my position because it was a reply to me and started with 'FWIW' which carries the implication that I had said something wrong.
I think that I agree with this being a pretty valid consideration when it comes to the value that Scion provides, even if it is a kind of pseudo-punisher mechanic in that respect (they choose what blocks it) and does not account for token blockers.
Since you seem to imply that I claimed that chumpers are an issue for Scion of Darkness rather than Void Beckoner, which was claimed to be the quicker finisher in the message to which I was replying, please read my previous reply again in the context of what I was responding to.
Except when they can chump. I think that it is important that it gets less value early, though. I was not very interested in it and now I am even less so. But trample is a better keyword than deathtouch in this instance.
It is definitely interesting as dedicated in-colour support that provides CA when it hits so just removing it is not enough.
A little too dedicated for me, perhaps. Especially at 3 to cycle it. At 8 mana, it is extremely unlikely to get cast properly.
...woo.
I cannot remember exact ones right now but I feel like something like Blood Scrivener could be nice. It's got a powerful enough effect to be hype but in limited, it would not really break anything by being uncommon so there is a realistic chance of getting it. Mostly utility stuff right now rather than anything bomby, I would say.
Also, better red 1-drops, specifically those with 2 power. Realistically, something like Falkenrath Pit Fighter, Firedrinker Satyr or Wayward Guide-Beast. If WotC goes wild, Goblin Guide.
Yeah, I was also about to go 'bye, Rumor Gatherer, we hardly knew ye', but then I got to thinking how important this kind of CA is in white and I think that I might try and stuff both in. The effect is still rare enough to be worth two slots despite the direct competition between the two, it feels like.
Overall? I agree that it is too deep on Commander-only and multiplayer mechanics. I still really loathe venturing and thus Initiative, even if I see its power level. And dice. The d20 mechanic also sucks, and I even removed the more powerful dice cards like Clay Golem from my CU/be recently because I the mechanic is just so bad for MtG. That said, there is a good number of cards listed below.
Staple:
Gut, True Soul Zealot: That trigger and that token are just so damn good.
Likely Testing:
Beckoning Will-o'-Wisp: The base stats are passable and me likey group pumps on sticks.
Crystal Dragon: White still struggles with big creatures and +1 mana to Serra Angel for a helpful early mode feels nice.
Githzerai Monk: Mass taps on a stick - with flash - feel like they must be good, and the body is still half-decent.
Greatsword of Tyr: A very interesting way to get this effect with 'haste' in white.
Lulu, Loyal Hollyphant: Another decent body with a repeatable mass pump effect. But might prove too cute.
Alora, Merry Thief: Nice cross-synergy on a stick with decent stats.
Sapphire Dragon: Conditional counters into finishers, even if both are slightly overcosted? Still a very good deal.
Bonecaller Cleric: I think that the value is there, even (and perhaps especially) outside dedicated reanimator. I would still compare this to Monstrous.
Guildsworn Prowler: Excellent value thanks to Deathtouch. I am surprised to have seen so little interest in this.
Amethyst Dragon: Similar to the blue one. Removal with a decent finisher to back it up is nothing to sniff at.
Insufferable Balladeer: This basically takes out a blocker for two rounds. For 2 mana.
Livaan, Cultist of Tiamat: That this is a Prowess rather than a spellsliger trigger than the ability to target other creatures make this the best variant of this thus far in my opinion.
Reckless Barbarian: It does not require tapping and a 2/2 is still decent in red.
Two-Handed Axe: Combat trick into a pretty unique piece of equipment.
Wilson, Refined Grizzly: Lovely keyword soup. Yum-yum.
Noble's Purse: Interesting variant on Sphere of the Suns.
Rug of Smothering: I agree on this being a kind of Eidolon of the Great Revel for Peasant.
The new Thriving Gates: Uninteresting but proven good.
Interesting:
Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward: I agree with the comparison to Ivy Lane Denizen. Too much of a one-trick combo enabler that works with a bunch of similar cards.
Banishment: We got a Detention Sphere. Probably less upside than other 4 mana O-ring variants.
Blessed Hippogriff: Good but kind of uninteresting and going from 3 mana to 4 mana feels like a big jump for this kind of effect.
Ellyn Harbreeze, Busybody: Interesting way of doing CA in white but a little too parasitic for that mana investment.
Rescuer Chwinga: Making that a may is kinda interesting but removes combo potential.
Candlekeep Inspiration: It is cute but does not increase your board presence in a deck where you only really get board presence if you draw specific enablers. There are better finishers for spellslingers.
Irenicus's Vile Duplication: Interesting clone effect. Actually even better in spellslingers because it is a sorcery.
Mystery Key: 3 mana and a hit for 3 cards is not bad at all.
Vhal, Candlekeep Researcher: Still a lot of mana to use on other things. But still perhaps a bit situational for the mana investment.
Winter Eladrin: Just basically another Man-O-War, better than the others.
Sarevok, Deathbringer: This being symmetrical might be a little too dangerous. If it was only conditional, it would be excellent.
Stirge: Early creatures that replace themselves are always of some interest.
Viconia, Drow Apostate: Nice value on a passable body but a little too unreliable.
Zhentarim Bandit: Certainly interesting but the stats make it unlikely to generate much value.
Carefree Swinemaster: Pretty good token generator, all told.
Dread Linnorm: This effect does a lot of things and looks better tagged onto a decent creature.
Erinis, Gloom Stalker: Interesting kind of ramp and GY value on a good body.
Halsin, Emerald Archdruid: Still a bit too conditional for a 4 mana initial investment but strong.
Split the Spoils: Great value - if you have enough suitable cards in the GY.
Cadira, Caller of the Small: The potential for exponential growth is hard to ignore.
Oji, the Exquisite Blade: Plays two parts for purposes of blink decks.
Bronze Walrus: Scry 2 on ETB tagged onto a mana myr is not bad at all.
Dire Mimic: I hear that mimics were good in their native environment and a 5/5 on turn 3 or as a surprise blocker can certainly still hurt.
People on the Pauper side seem pretty excited for Initiative right now. Given how backbreaking Monarch can be, I am starting to see the benefit. However, I still really, really hate venturing as a mechanic and thus, will almost certainly not include those cards. But what are others' takes here on the power level and whether the mechanic is worth supporting, given the hassle?