Are there any other Grixis cards like spoils of war to distribute counters?
Spoils of War seems pretty bad; you cannot choose X yourself and it's not instant speed. The great thing about Unspeakable Symbol is the fact you can respond to stuff. If you worry about loosing Marchesa, get stuff that gives haste: that way she gets a counter same turn as cast and is much more likely to stick around.
It's always nice to get back to 40 life, and stay there, once you're almost dead by dropping a Resolute Archangel! Or keep everyone from tapping their creatures with a Sunblast angel in play.
Just curious at how Brago, or blue white can deal with heavy ramp decks and or landfall decks that get degenerate on their land drops and over powered drops? Obviously we can never fully match them in the land department so how do we get ahead without using Armageddon? Spirit of the Labyrinth ??
Well personally I wouldn't run Spirit of the Labyrinth, since my Brago list loves to draw a lot of cards. Also ramp isn't really an issue for me because of winter orb/static orb, that really shuts em down. Also, all the bounce/exile/destroy and even meekstone helps in dealing with possible fatties they might drop. Ow and don't forget to always stripmine a gaea's cradle on sight!
In regard to landfall decks, I don't have much experience against those but I'd say keep removing the threats that make them degenerate.
For me, the hardest stuff to deal with is instant/sorcery heavy decks, but that is due to my lack of counterspells.
(Posted on my phone so appologies if card tags don't work)
So now that the whole set is spoiled, what are you guys thinking of testing?
Hmm haven't looked very thoroughly at all the cards, but so far I'm just gonna test Olivia, Mobilized for War. That is, if she's gonna drop in price / I draft her, since I find the current price of $15 too much for what she does for the deck.
Also, it's so tempting to try Westvale Abbey! Not because I think it's gonna be good but it's just such an awesome card
I don't see why Confusion in the Ranks doesn't work while Olivia does.
Couldn't the stack for Confusion be: Sac Mulldrifter -> Draw cards -> Confusion trigger from bottom to top? In this case, I'd think you could swap creatures due to Confusion (since it's clearly on the battlefield right now), draw your cards, and the last ability will fizzle since you can't sacrifice a creature you don't control.
I don't see how that stack is different from Sac Mulldrifter -> Draw cards -> Olivia trigger.
Agree with this point of view, I also don't see why Mulldrifter wouldn't be on the battlefield if you stack the trigger in the aforementioned way. (Also found this post)
In addition to that, looking at the rulings on evoke:
702.73a Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card with evoke can be cast and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. “Evoke [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it.” Paying a card’s evoke cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
So if the exchange takes place, it also looks like the new controller still has to sac it.
I don't know for sure since I'm far from a judge myself but just curious on how these situations work out. But then again I don't think anyone runs a Confusion in the Ranks in his Marchesa deck so this might not be the right place to discuss such stuff
The sidisi one works, the mulldrifter one doesn't. When you evoke it is immediately sacrificed when it is put into play. Olivia's trigger is a when so it is put on the stack when mulldrifter enters play but by the time it would get a chance to resolve mulldrifter is already dead.
Anyway fine, I see your points, I'm definitely convinced to try her.
Are you sure? I thought so too but the following line from the rulings page made me think otherwise:
Playing a creature by paying its evoke cost will result in two comes-into-play abilities: The sacrifice ability from evoke, and whatever other ability the creature has. The creature's controller chooses in what order to put them on the stack. Both abilities can be responded to as normal.source
So I thought the new Olivia created the third trigger also allowed to be put on the stack in a chosen order, meaning you could end up with:
Draw 2 -> Place counter + give haste -> Sac
[Edit:] Thinking about it, this means the next time I decide to cast Mulldrifter for it's evoke cost and something like Carrion Feeder is in play, I might as well respond to the evoke sac trigger to at least give Feeder a +1/+1 counter too.
[Edit2:] Off topic, but if correct that means evoke is some nice tech with Confusion in the Ranks
At first I wasn't sure about this one since discarding is not something I like to do. On the other hand, a 3/3 flyer with no downside for 3cmc is always useful and the ability can be a backup plan. The River kelpie combo convinced me though, thats an awesome find
There are also some upsides to the ability even if Marchesa is also in play; casting a Mulldrifter for its evoke cost, nets you 3 cards eot for 3 mana. Orrrrr having Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploit itself; discard 1, tutor 2! (that does work right?)
First of all I agree big time on Jace Beleren! Great draw engine and fits nicely in the curve with 3 cmc. Always wondered why I didn't see him in more lists.
About what to cut in your list, first of all damn thats a lot of counterspells I don't run any in my list but if you have your reasons for that I'll leave them out of the suggestions.
- Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, he's quite ok early game to delay opponents but at 4 cmc I want to cast Brago. Late game he seems underwhelming;
- Strionic Resonator, I know it seems like an auto-include but I'm considering cutting it myself. Like gromgrom mentioned, it kinda underperforms and I'm actually never happy to topdeck it;
- Maybe cut 1 land? With those manarocks / ramp stuff you could try and go with 35;
- Curse of the Swine, good card but you already have a lot of stuff to get rid of creatures so maybe this one can be missed;
- Whispersilk Cloak, I've found 5 mana for the effect too much. Maybe change to Lightning Greaves?
- Sunblast Angel, I only see real synergy here with Static Orb (i.e. no Meekstone, Blind Obedience etc.);
- Restoration Angel, the flash is nice but a clone partially does the same thing and is more versatile.
Also, your list looks like a real control deck with all the counters, exile and bounce. If that is what works for you maybe consider removing stuff that, while good on its own, does not add to this strategy such as Whirler Rogue, Cloudform, Kor Cartographer.
Hmm never considered Deathrender.. Looks interesting but thinking about how it would perform, I don't think you can really 'chain' multiple triggers to dump your hand on the board. You'd probably want a counter on the creature with Deathrender attached to it before saccing it, meaning you want to attack with it first. And then if you also happen to have a haste enabler, you still only have 1 attack phase. It also doesn't really function without a sac outlet. So I'm afraid in practice the card reads "6 mana, each turn put one creature in play for free as long as you have a sac outlet", which is still nice but not Scourge of the Throne-game ending nice..
There are some situations where it could do some broken stuff, like when having Sage of Fables on the board and a hand full of wizards. Or with Unspeakable Symbol and enough disposable life.
It could serve as a sort of budget Sneak Attack (with some haste enabler and sac outlet on the board). Anyway, if you decide to test the card I'd like to hear how it performed for you!
Agree on Venser, he's awesome! Also, if the combo's involve artifacts toss a Tuktuk Scrapper in there as well (even if they don't there's always artifacts to blast!). It's 4 cmc so easy to fetch.
Against Nekusar, Sower of Temptation is great for stealing annoying commanders. And remember you have Aura Thief for all their additional stuff such as Fate Unraveler, Underworld Dreams, Spiteful Visions, etc. Been a while since I played against Nekusar but it seems we could be able to manage it. Especially when you got Sneak Attack, it will be very risky to let you draw cards, even if it damages you
Also I really recommend Márton Stromgald, might not look that good at first but I think he's responsible for closing the most games I won. Great card and cheap one too!
Another powerhouse, at least in my meta with not much combo and a lot of swarm decks, is Profaner of the Dead. It cripples so many decks I frequently play against, but again kinda meta dependent.
How has Master of Waves worked for you? Don't the Elemental tokens die right away when you flicker Master?
Fortunately, the tokens from Master of Waves live through a flicker; since exiling and returning them is one trigger, Master of Waves is back before State Based Actions are checked and they therefore survive as 2/1 creatures.
Hey all, I've posted in this topic a few times, looking for further advice here. I'm having trouble making cuts to my list. It's pretty damn competitive, and I wanna keep it that way, with a little fun thrown in. There is alot of Maze of Ith hate in here. For good reason.
Nice list! Looks very nasty to play against.
Stuff I personally don't run in my list (I'm running less of a stax build so I'll leave those cards unmentioned):
- Burnished Hart; it's a great card but I like everything to be a blink target. I run Oreskos Explorer instead. Doesn't ramp but still fetches basics plains;
- Blade Splicer; removed it as I always found him a bit underwhelming;
- Return to Dust; doesn't have feet, but that might be a meta call on your end;
- Render Silent/Swan Song; I don't run any counterspells. Some games I wished I did but in the end we have answers to almost anything, repeatably;
- Mnemonic Wall; do 8 instants/sorceries justify running this? Any reason to not replace it with archaeomancer?
I also had doubts about Mastery of the Unseen, but late game when you have a lot of mana it simply wins games. And since I only run three non-permanents it's a sure hit!
Spoils of War seems pretty bad; you cannot choose X yourself and it's not instant speed. The great thing about Unspeakable Symbol is the fact you can respond to stuff. If you worry about loosing Marchesa, get stuff that gives haste: that way she gets a counter same turn as cast and is much more likely to stick around.
Also Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Drana, Liberator of Malakir and Olivia, Mobilized for War can act as backup generals.
Well personally I wouldn't run Spirit of the Labyrinth, since my Brago list loves to draw a lot of cards. Also ramp isn't really an issue for me because of winter orb/static orb, that really shuts em down. Also, all the bounce/exile/destroy and even meekstone helps in dealing with possible fatties they might drop. Ow and don't forget to always stripmine a gaea's cradle on sight!
In regard to landfall decks, I don't have much experience against those but I'd say keep removing the threats that make them degenerate.
For me, the hardest stuff to deal with is instant/sorcery heavy decks, but that is due to my lack of counterspells.
(Posted on my phone so appologies if card tags don't work)
Also, it's so tempting to try Westvale Abbey! Not because I think it's gonna be good but it's just such an awesome card
The link in my sig is up to date, though the landbase isn't optimal (no duals/fetch).
Agree with this point of view, I also don't see why Mulldrifter wouldn't be on the battlefield if you stack the trigger in the aforementioned way. (Also found this post)
In addition to that, looking at the rulings on evoke:
702.73a Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card with evoke can be cast and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. “Evoke [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it.” Paying a card’s evoke cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
So if the exchange takes place, it also looks like the new controller still has to sac it.
I don't know for sure since I'm far from a judge myself but just curious on how these situations work out. But then again I don't think anyone runs a Confusion in the Ranks in his Marchesa deck so this might not be the right place to discuss such stuff
Are you sure? I thought so too but the following line from the rulings page made me think otherwise:
Playing a creature by paying its evoke cost will result in two comes-into-play abilities: The sacrifice ability from evoke, and whatever other ability the creature has. The creature's controller chooses in what order to put them on the stack. Both abilities can be responded to as normal. source
So I thought the new Olivia created the third trigger also allowed to be put on the stack in a chosen order, meaning you could end up with:
Draw 2 -> Place counter + give haste -> Sac
[Edit:] Thinking about it, this means the next time I decide to cast Mulldrifter for it's evoke cost and something like Carrion Feeder is in play, I might as well respond to the evoke sac trigger to at least give Feeder a +1/+1 counter too.
[Edit2:] Off topic, but if correct that means evoke is some nice tech with Confusion in the Ranks
That would be especially fun in larger multiplayer games; when it's your turn again you've replaced your whole hand with tutored cards
There are also some upsides to the ability even if Marchesa is also in play; casting a Mulldrifter for its evoke cost, nets you 3 cards eot for 3 mana. Orrrrr having Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploit itself; discard 1, tutor 2! (that does work right?)
About what to cut in your list, first of all damn thats a lot of counterspells
- Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, he's quite ok early game to delay opponents but at 4 cmc I want to cast Brago. Late game he seems underwhelming;
- Strionic Resonator, I know it seems like an auto-include but I'm considering cutting it myself. Like gromgrom mentioned, it kinda underperforms and I'm actually never happy to topdeck it;
- Maybe cut 1 land? With those manarocks / ramp stuff you could try and go with 35;
- Curse of the Swine, good card but you already have a lot of stuff to get rid of creatures so maybe this one can be missed;
- Whispersilk Cloak, I've found 5 mana for the effect too much. Maybe change to Lightning Greaves?
- Sunblast Angel, I only see real synergy here with Static Orb (i.e. no Meekstone, Blind Obedience etc.);
- Restoration Angel, the flash is nice but a clone partially does the same thing and is more versatile.
Also, your list looks like a real control deck with all the counters, exile and bounce. If that is what works for you maybe consider removing stuff that, while good on its own, does not add to this strategy such as Whirler Rogue, Cloudform, Kor Cartographer.
Ow and while you already have a hard time cutting stuff might I nonetheless mention these all-stars:
- Nevermaker
- Vanishing
- Teferi, Temporal Archmage
There are some situations where it could do some broken stuff, like when having Sage of Fables on the board and a hand full of wizards. Or with Unspeakable Symbol and enough disposable life.
It could serve as a sort of budget Sneak Attack (with some haste enabler and sac outlet on the board). Anyway, if you decide to test the card I'd like to hear how it performed for you!
Against Nekusar, Sower of Temptation is great for stealing annoying commanders. And remember you have Aura Thief for all their additional stuff such as Fate Unraveler, Underworld Dreams, Spiteful Visions, etc. Been a while since I played against Nekusar but it seems we could be able to manage it. Especially when you got Sneak Attack, it will be very risky to let you draw cards, even if it damages you
Also I really recommend Márton Stromgald, might not look that good at first but I think he's responsible for closing the most games I won. Great card and cheap one too!
Another powerhouse, at least in my meta with not much combo and a lot of swarm decks, is Profaner of the Dead. It cripples so many decks I frequently play against, but again kinda meta dependent.
Fortunately, the tokens from Master of Waves live through a flicker; since exiling and returning them is one trigger, Master of Waves is back before State Based Actions are checked and they therefore survive as 2/1 creatures.
Nice list! Looks very nasty to play against.
Stuff I personally don't run in my list (I'm running less of a stax build so I'll leave those cards unmentioned):
- Burnished Hart; it's a great card but I like everything to be a blink target. I run Oreskos Explorer instead. Doesn't ramp but still fetches
basicsplains;- Blade Splicer; removed it as I always found him a bit underwhelming;
- Return to Dust; doesn't have feet, but that might be a meta call on your end;
- Render Silent/Swan Song; I don't run any counterspells. Some games I wished I did but in the end we have answers to almost anything, repeatably;
- Mnemonic Wall; do 8 instants/sorceries justify running this? Any reason to not replace it with archaeomancer?
I also had doubts about Mastery of the Unseen, but late game when you have a lot of mana it simply wins games. And since I only run three non-permanents it's a sure hit!
If you do decide to run Kismet (I go with Blind Obedience, but same idea), maybe consider Sunblast Angel; blinkable, onesides ***