By the way, why do you play more than one Duskwatch? You only need one. That extra slot could be a second Lil Teferi in the MD.
My meta is absolutely polluted with UW and Bx. So even without having concrete data on Veil, I'll be jamming it hard. Post board I'll be on 4x Lil Tefer and 4x Veil. The 4x Giver is obvious. I think I keep all 4 Lunge in, post board despite the GY hate, just because it increases the number of win routes.
Playing 7x cards that 2-for-1 me, in a meta of removal and discard and counterspells is not viable. I'm trying some brews while I figure out where I want to go with the deck. I'm certain 4x MD Giver and 3-4x SB Veil will be in any version I build. Once I have anything worth discussing, I'll report back.
@Arkaedrian: Coco and Incubation have whiffed WAY too often for me to ever rely on such effects again. I'm seeing alternate sources of card selection and it is already looking to be an edifying pursuit.
Knight of Autumn is now relevant against UR Phoenix in G1 due to Aria. If you run into a lot of Aria, then I suppose Knight of Autumn in the MD is more justifiable.
As I've explained before, the Incubation//Incongruity slots are subpar. Has anyone experimented with them? A fellow on the discord runs Eldritch Evolution in those slots and is having great success.
Also, the Discord channels for Druid combo got some reorganizing. All-in shells, like this deck, are now separate from Chalice shells. Things should be clearer now.
The problem with midrange is that the combination of discard and removal makes it the most difficult archetype to combo against. On top of that, they have more card advantage and better raw card quality, so it's hard to try and grind them out. And lastly, quick clocks like Goyf and Scooze mean you have to draw removal or somehow race them.
Pro black creatures work because it's a way to play fair that simply cheeses midrange instead of playing their grindy two-for-one game. I'm guessing Mirran Crusader or Mystic Enforcer aren't what you're looking for :o) The advantage with those two over Colossus against BG is that they better deal with a board of opposing green beaters. Beyond pro black creatures, with 4 Tef already in the 75 the best suggestion I have are walkers like Gideon AoZ. You could try going super deep with other cheese plans like Asceticism which would allow you to chump, regen until you assemble the combo. But it goes without saying that 5 mana is a lot. I tried Tireless Tracker, which was okay, but it underperformed most of the time. It's not hard to race the clues or the body, and they can easily kill it within a turn to limit you to one or two clues drawn.
I think you missed the point I was making: the pro-black dudes plan may beat BGx, but it does NOT beat all the other decks that disrupt on multiple axes and apply pressure, such as BW Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer, and Esper Death's Shadow.
So I'm looking for alternatives. I suppose we could play fair with Lil Teferi and Gideon AoZ. But Giver of Runes may change everything. Giver backed up by Greaves, Shalai, Eternal Witness, and maybe some sort of removal should handle ANY midrange deck. But the MD has few slots to cut in general and the SB obviously does not have that kind of space. I'd really like to hear your experiences with Giver in relation to midrange opponents.
By the way, I've been liking Giver after recognizing that I want more protection effects than 4 Lunge. Presently, I am cutting the extra dork, 3rd Neoform, and 2nd main deck Tef for 3 Giver. I moved the Tef to the board, cutting the 3rd BFT.
Try to fit the 4th Giver, so you can see it often so you can evaluate the card properly. It is good in so many circumstances and you need to experience that.
How has Knight of Autumn in the maindeck been for you? I've been warned against playing such things in the MD, as it is effectively just a hate card for opponents' sideboard measures.
This should be a permanent link to the Druid discord. There's no channel for this particular version of Druid Combo but we can change that. Let me know if anyone has trouble with it: https://discord.gg/C7WdRPr
After testing the list above a little bit, it seems to me like splashing both blue and black is worth it. The cost of running two extra shocks is minimal. Thoughtseize in the sideboard helps a lot against other linear decks and helps you dodge boardwipes in the grindier matches. Plague engineer hasn't been that usefull so far, but I can imagine this card doing work against Infect, which I suspect will be played a lot.
I can understand the value of Thoughtseize against boardwipes, but how does it help against linear decks? There are few decks that are faster than us: wouldn't our time and resources be better spent comboing? IMO, sideboard options against specific super-high-speed matchups should be more speed or deck-specific hate cards.
Contrast with this list: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30876&iddeck=263025
This is definitely slower than us, but much much more fair. Thoughtseize in the SB looks super strong there and clearly was worthwhile given that she made Top 8 in the event.
Now, to address the Thoughseize vs board wipes: we're usually hoping to go under boardwipes. However, we have to admit that said plan is not reliable. So Thoughseize DEFINITELY has value here. However, the mana base is already a little strained if you want to do game winning things on turns 2 and 3. If you're looking past the 4th turn regularly, you might want to consider a different version of Druid combo (like the link I posted above, which definitely looks rad).
As far as this shell dealing with sweepers: has anyone considered Nissa, Steward of Elements? We cast her for 2 (X=0) and her 0 ability has 40 possible hits in the deck. However, said hits are a little low in individual value.
Thanks for the great response to Aetherbringer. I'd be interested in testing out Giver of Runes more. Big thing with the card is finding 3-4 slots. I definitely like playing the set rather than 1 or 2 because it's fairly bad off the top and isn't a card you'll be tutoring too often (although you have more incentive without Ezuri). Looks like you accomplished that by shaving Duskwatch, no 9th dork, and cutting Dryad Arbor. I'll have to consider going to 1 to 2 Duskwatch in the future, but I do find myself getting scrappy wins with it often. I'm not huge on cutting Arbor personally, but if you'd like to forego it, I'd encourage you to play some fastlands over 2-3 fetches.
I like your list for a removal heavy metagame for sure. Similar to BFT out of the side, T1 Stepmom, T2 Druid with Lunge in hand is a fantastic nut draw. You'll have to let us know what you think of your list.
Welcome back!
I have a feeling I'm going to miss the Dryad Arbor. It enhances the WHOOPS I WIN potential. But naturally drawing Arbor sucks, or even worse its in your opener, both of which have happened to me more than a few times. And of course it just sucks in my removal heavy local meta.
Duskwatch I don't expect to miss much. I've played him a lot in Company shells and he's always been a little awkward on multiple axes. I expect him to be much worse here. So unless the card disadvantage from Neoform and Eldritch Evolution are relevant very often, I'm not afraid of trimming him to 1.
List changes from my last post:
-2 Misty Rainforest
+1 Razorverge Thicket
+1 Botanical Sanctum
-2 SB Heroic Intervention
-2 SB Reflector Mage
+1 SB Selfless Spirit
+1 SB Scavenging Ooze
+1 SB Eidolon of Rhetoric
+1 SB Deputy of Detention
I already trimmed some fetches for some fastlands. Glad to hear you concur with that.
I couldn't find my Heroic Interventions and Reflector Mage is just an Unsummon after TitI flips, which doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
Selfless Spirit does a decent Heroic Intervention impression. Nice synergy with Postmortem Lunge + Teferi!
Scooze is very experimental. I suppose anything could be there but Scooze is SO STRONG against so many decks that it seems like a good use of a spot.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is not great for us, but its even worse for TitI decks.
Deputy of Detention is a catch-all.
I'm excited to take this deck for a spin at FNM. I expect to do much better than when I tried this deck sans Stepmom.
I'm definitely building off @AcademyRuin's list. It is clearly well tuned and a great starting point. However, I personally disagree with @AcademyRuins regarding Giver of Runes. I think Stepmom is going to be a big bonus for this deck. Our number one problem is creature removal and Postmortem Lunge doesn't solve that all on its own. To be fair, I only play paper Magic and my local meta is very removal heavy. So that is probably defining a lot of my choices.
Starting this upcoming FNM, I'll be testing this list:
If I can get my hands on a Waterlogged Grove at a decent price, that will be taking the slot of one of the Horizon Canopies.
Card choices:
Rhonas over Ezuri: My single biggest concern is, if you can't go for Ballista, Rhonas allows any of your creatures to attack for infinite damage whereas Ezuri only enables Elves. Also, on the off chance that my opponent Surgicals the Devoted Druids, Rhonas opens up a possible beatdown plan. And I really like that he's indestructible. I do wonder if I'll miss the double Druid + Ezuri combo.
Only 1 Duskwatch: Finale removes the need for Duskwatch. If you have the mana combo, cast Finale for Ballista with X being a large number. Ballista will enter the battlefield as a 0/0 with no counters but state based effects won't kill it until the spell finishes resolving. Next part of the spell gives Ballista +X/+X. When Finale finishes resolving, Ballista will be an X/X with zero counters on it. Spend your infinite mana on Ballista's add-a-counter ability, then shoot your opponent for an arbitrarily large amount of damage. 1 Duskwatch remains so you can combo off when you don't have Finaly by fetching him with Neoform or Eldritch Evolution.
3 Postmortem Lunge: Playing 4 Lunge kinda sucks. They clog up your hand and don't do anything most of the time.
1 Lightning Greaves: In the spot of the 4th Lunge. This is a proactive alternative to Lunge. No its not perfect, but it has a variety of advantages that Lunge doesn't and it plays very nice with mana dorks and with Stepmom. There's a strong possibility that there should be more than 1 of these in the 75. Only testing will tell.
SB Knight of Autumn: Reliably handles many issues.
SB Eladamri's Call: An early tutor that doesn't 2-for-1 ourselves
Experiments:
Heroic Intervention is intended for combating sweepers.
Yes, Duskwatch Recruiter decreases in value as you play more Finale of Devastation, so number vary as appropriate.
I'm glad to hear Giver of Runes is working out for you. I'm excited to try it once my local meta calms down.
Postmortem Lunge is a complex card. Having multiple in hand or topdecking them later can be a major bummer. On the other hand, it often lets you win on turn 3 when your opponent plays removal on your turn 2 Druid. Given that this deck is pretty speed oriented, I'd say it is very worth playing. At least 3 in the maindeck and maybe a 4th in the side. Mix and match with Lightning Greaves according to your meta's tastes.
Beating Izzet Phoenix is hard for almost all Druid decks. For this Druid deck, your primary win plan will be to combo them out before TiTi flips. If it does flip, you likely have 1 out: have your Druid kill itself, lunge it back next turn (without getting Surgical Extraction'd), and win off that. If you find UR Phoenix to be a large portion of your meta, other Druid shells are probably better for you.
Number of tutors is often decided by your strategy. What are you trying to do? This thread is primarily for a super speed game plan with a consistent turn 2 Druid and turn 3 win (hence the Neoforms and Postmortem Lunges). If you have a different plan, you'll play different tutors. Check out the Druid combo Discord to see other varieties.
Every shell of Druid just races Tron. Unless said deck is playing Knight of the Reliquary, in which case it races Tron and plays Ghost Quarter and/or Field of Ruin.
My meta is absolutely polluted with UW and Bx. So even without having concrete data on Veil, I'll be jamming it hard. Post board I'll be on 4x Lil Tefer and 4x Veil. The 4x Giver is obvious. I think I keep all 4 Lunge in, post board despite the GY hate, just because it increases the number of win routes.
Playing 7x cards that 2-for-1 me, in a meta of removal and discard and counterspells is not viable. I'm trying some brews while I figure out where I want to go with the deck. I'm certain 4x MD Giver and 3-4x SB Veil will be in any version I build. Once I have anything worth discussing, I'll report back.
@Arkaedrian: Coco and Incubation have whiffed WAY too often for me to ever rely on such effects again. I'm seeing alternate sources of card selection and it is already looking to be an edifying pursuit.
As I've explained before, the Incubation//Incongruity slots are subpar. Has anyone experimented with them? A fellow on the discord runs Eldritch Evolution in those slots and is having great success.
Also, the Discord channels for Druid combo got some reorganizing. All-in shells, like this deck, are now separate from Chalice shells. Things should be clearer now.
I think you missed the point I was making: the pro-black dudes plan may beat BGx, but it does NOT beat all the other decks that disrupt on multiple axes and apply pressure, such as BW Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer, and Esper Death's Shadow.
So I'm looking for alternatives. I suppose we could play fair with Lil Teferi and Gideon AoZ. But Giver of Runes may change everything. Giver backed up by Greaves, Shalai, Eternal Witness, and maybe some sort of removal should handle ANY midrange deck. But the MD has few slots to cut in general and the SB obviously does not have that kind of space. I'd really like to hear your experiences with Giver in relation to midrange opponents.
Try to fit the 4th Giver, so you can see it often so you can evaluate the card properly. It is good in so many circumstances and you need to experience that.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-denUciIxx59UgiTb2FG-RSGP9KfUnon3F2FfUPzW7I/edit?usp=drivesdk
@AcademyRuins: Due to the diversity of midrange strategies, I'm looking for answers besides Chameleon Colossus, etc. Have you found any good hate?
I found Incubation/Incongruity to be disappointing when I was playing a shell with many possible hits. See the early versions of this deck:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/799097-druid-evolution
Your list definitely has too few hits! I can't imagine Incubation/Incongruity performing well in your list, despite the popularity of your list.
How is Eladamri's Call performing for you? It seems pretty slow to me.
https://discord.gg/C7WdRPr
https://discord.gg/C7WdRPr
Contrast with this list:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30876&iddeck=263025
This is definitely slower than us, but much much more fair. Thoughtseize in the SB looks super strong there and clearly was worthwhile given that she made Top 8 in the event.
Now, to address the Thoughseize vs board wipes: we're usually hoping to go under boardwipes. However, we have to admit that said plan is not reliable. So Thoughseize DEFINITELY has value here. However, the mana base is already a little strained if you want to do game winning things on turns 2 and 3. If you're looking past the 4th turn regularly, you might want to consider a different version of Druid combo (like the link I posted above, which definitely looks rad).
As far as this shell dealing with sweepers: has anyone considered Nissa, Steward of Elements? We cast her for 2 (X=0) and her 0 ability has 40 possible hits in the deck. However, said hits are a little low in individual value.
I have a feeling I'm going to miss the Dryad Arbor. It enhances the WHOOPS I WIN potential. But naturally drawing Arbor sucks, or even worse its in your opener, both of which have happened to me more than a few times. And of course it just sucks in my removal heavy local meta.
Duskwatch I don't expect to miss much. I've played him a lot in Company shells and he's always been a little awkward on multiple axes. I expect him to be much worse here. So unless the card disadvantage from Neoform and Eldritch Evolution are relevant very often, I'm not afraid of trimming him to 1.
List changes from my last post:
-2 Misty Rainforest
+1 Razorverge Thicket
+1 Botanical Sanctum
-2 SB Heroic Intervention
-2 SB Reflector Mage
+1 SB Selfless Spirit
+1 SB Scavenging Ooze
+1 SB Eidolon of Rhetoric
+1 SB Deputy of Detention
I already trimmed some fetches for some fastlands. Glad to hear you concur with that.
I couldn't find my Heroic Interventions and Reflector Mage is just an Unsummon after TitI flips, which doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
Selfless Spirit does a decent Heroic Intervention impression. Nice synergy with Postmortem Lunge + Teferi!
Scooze is very experimental. I suppose anything could be there but Scooze is SO STRONG against so many decks that it seems like a good use of a spot.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is not great for us, but its even worse for TitI decks.
Deputy of Detention is a catch-all.
I'm excited to take this deck for a spin at FNM. I expect to do much better than when I tried this deck sans Stepmom.
I'm definitely building off @AcademyRuin's list. It is clearly well tuned and a great starting point. However, I personally disagree with @AcademyRuins regarding Giver of Runes. I think Stepmom is going to be a big bonus for this deck. Our number one problem is creature removal and Postmortem Lunge doesn't solve that all on its own. To be fair, I only play paper Magic and my local meta is very removal heavy. So that is probably defining a lot of my choices.
Starting this upcoming FNM, I'll be testing this list:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Giver of Runes
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rhonas
1 Walking Ballista
3 Neoform
4 Eldritch Evolution
3 Finale of Devastation
3 Postmortem Lunge
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Knight of Autumn
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eladamri's Call
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Reflector Mage
If I can get my hands on a Waterlogged Grove at a decent price, that will be taking the slot of one of the Horizon Canopies.
Card choices:
Experiments:
Cards I'm considering for the future, depending on the performance of the current configuration:
Card recommendations for beating Thing in the Ice, UW Planeswalkers Control, and BGx Midrange are appreciated!
Also, the Devoted Druid combo Discord does have a dedicated channel for Bant. That may be worthwhile for you.
I'm glad to hear Giver of Runes is working out for you. I'm excited to try it once my local meta calms down.
Postmortem Lunge is a complex card. Having multiple in hand or topdecking them later can be a major bummer. On the other hand, it often lets you win on turn 3 when your opponent plays removal on your turn 2 Druid. Given that this deck is pretty speed oriented, I'd say it is very worth playing. At least 3 in the maindeck and maybe a 4th in the side. Mix and match with Lightning Greaves according to your meta's tastes.
Beating Izzet Phoenix is hard for almost all Druid decks. For this Druid deck, your primary win plan will be to combo them out before TiTi flips. If it does flip, you likely have 1 out: have your Druid kill itself, lunge it back next turn (without getting Surgical Extraction'd), and win off that. If you find UR Phoenix to be a large portion of your meta, other Druid shells are probably better for you.
Number of tutors is often decided by your strategy. What are you trying to do? This thread is primarily for a super speed game plan with a consistent turn 2 Druid and turn 3 win (hence the Neoforms and Postmortem Lunges). If you have a different plan, you'll play different tutors. Check out the Druid combo Discord to see other varieties.
Every shell of Druid just races Tron. Unless said deck is playing Knight of the Reliquary, in which case it races Tron and plays Ghost Quarter and/or Field of Ruin.