Wow, this is a *much* tougher question than it was two weeks ago!
Back when I thought this was a broader release,
I would have wanted old lands that haven't been Modernized,
like Deserted Temple and Riptide Laboratory.
Now that I know it's more rare than a Unicorn, hmm...
1- Mana Drain
2- Force of Will
3- Stasis (seriously, WTF is up with no foil of this?!)
Yes, I like me some Blue.
I need that Stasis. Also Force of Will just has to be in it. There is no more staple card besides that for blue.
Do you guys really think that because the forum users on this forum are angry that that means the general population of magic players are angry also? If you do then you know nothing about the MTG consumer base...
The tiny fraction of people who post on this forum is nothing compared to the amount of casual players out there. Most casual table top players don't care about this product, let alone Commander premium foils. Then, on the other side of the spectrum, most of the Legacy/Modern tournament regulars don't care to spend more money on cards that they do not need to compete in the semi-pro circuit. The fact of the matter is that the amount of people complaining on this forum is nowhere near enough to make a splash to Wizards/Hasbro. This product will do exactly what they wanted it to do - generate hype and sales, while still maintaining a good relationship between shop owners and themselves. The small amount of players who care about foils for their casual decks pale in comparison to the amount of players who care about Standard only. You have to be kidding yourself. . . Never mind. . . I feel like it just goes in one ear, out the other...
Actually the shop owners in my area are really lets say upset about the limited availability of this. Each shop has already had issues with the FTV and they only see the problem as getting worse. They're asked to fill a demand where the supply just isn't there. Add to that the issue of Release cards and Prerelease cards sometimes not getting to the shops and artificial limits on foreign product (these are very popular in our area). Finally add all the bs that Magic is known to put shops through even to get recognized and the shops are pretty pissed.
Now just watch this be widely available on magic online or something. There's the way to piss off the shops even more. [maybe I shouldn't point that out to WoC.]
The WPN solicitation says 2/4 units for core/advanced. Units means items, not cases. Also, as I posted earlier in the thread, I confirmed with Helene Bergeot, the director of organized play, that it is most definitely 2 or 4 decks, NOT 2 or 4 cases. As this product is ordered by sanctioning it through WER, she would have every reason to know this.
Reading is tech...just sayin'
Dr. Jeebus is right on this. I can confirm. And if you read all of this thread you'll get that for half of it is us disagreeing about stuff.
I'm going completely of topic now because the 2/4 - 8/16 discussion seems to be going on for the last 20 pages (it's 2/4 btw), but when do we think the next spoiler will be shown and what will it be?
I'm hoping Monday or Wednesday. But it will probably be in like 2 weeks.
I kind of like it. I mean its pretty basic. it should of been Unleash 1. I just remember the prerelease of Dissension looking at some of the mechanics and going huh. They were a bit confusing and some were just terrible. This at least is playable and may be quite good in limited.
Do you seriously ****ing care that much about one product? Seriously, just one. This one isn't even going to be like next year's Commander's Arsenal. Why are you so butthurt over one little thing?
Ya, people care, players care. Emailing Wizards is the best way. Let them know that they made a mistake with making this such a limited print run. Let them know that labeling this a Commander Product and not a 'Super ultra your never going to get one' collectible is a disservice to the Commander community. Even if you support the product email them and tell them. The majority of players at the shops that I go to really were distressed at the limited availability. My response, email wizards and post.
Yes its one product. My concern is that they seem to be tightening up there grip on some product, creating an artificial limits in supply. I find the lack of supply of this just distasteful, but also I've noticed increased limits on other product like foreign language product and even the occasional supply in stuff like into decks. I'm also concerned about the possibility of them labeling this a success and trying this stunt again.
"There isn't going to be a commander's arsenal next year? This is a one shot product, not a continuing product line."
We know that they are releasing decks next year. The assumption is that the decks will be widely distributed. We really don't know for sure what the distribution will look like.
It's almost impossible to hit the mark right on the head. Wizards is reprinting cards with secondary market value, which can vary. Worse, by the sole act of reprinting cards, it influences the value of those cards! Given that a reprint will increase the availability of the cards, I think it's fair for Wizards to aim a bit too high. Too low is an almost garanteed failure since the sets wouldn't hold any value.
I compare this to new sets: the main reasons to crack pack outside of limited are:
1. To get cards that are currently non-available. (Being new cards helps *a lot* here.)
2. To hope that the cracked cards have more value than the price of the pack.
Reprints follows this, except that the value of cards is known in advance. It's more like the Jitte-in-a-precon case. I don't see reason why:
1. The value of the cards should be much below the MSRP, if at all.
2. The distribution should make it so that almost all units will be sold vastly above MSRP.
Ok from a market stand point it's a lot harder to impact the cost of lets say a beta serra angel by reprinting then by under costing the original. One of my friends and I were discussing this the other day. We realized that we actually could break the secondary market for certain cards. I'm not going to go into how to do this. We actually would never do this because no one really benefits, its awful for the game and for players. We have seen it done adjacently before. Its a little more complicated then selling at a reduced cost, but that's part of it. Anyway its much harder to do that through reprinting.
Lets say that they made a widely distributed promo of Snapcaster Mage. That would devalue because Snapcaster Mage is relatively new and hasn't established its long-term value of collect-ability.
Next lets look at Maze of Ith. Lets say they did another promo, but instead of putting it in a vaults they used it as a prerelease card. At first in the secondary market there may be a slight dip for the original, there may not, or it may just rise a bit (this seems to be more common). The original's collect-ability is well established so it will stabilize. The promo ultimately will be worth a fraction of the price though. Players will still appreciate the collect-ability of the original or the Judge Promo, its almost like judging the prerelease card and the other printings as separate products, because they are.
We've seen this happen many times in magic. For example, Serra Angel (until the last couple of printings [note: this is a card that they finally did manage to destabilize the market through reprinting, and how many printings did it take)], Birds of Paradise, Lightning Bolt, Wrath of God, Nicol Bolas...[there are many more].
Anyway I want to say something about the case of Nicol Bolas. Currently, Nicol Bolas is the most expensive of any of the elder dragons. There is this phenomena that sometimes occurs with reprinting where the original gains value, part of this is that the card is introduced to more players. They naturally may then want to pimp out their deck with the original. This adds to the Demand of the originals, and because the originals are a separate 'set' the supply generated does not infringe on the marketability of the originals.
Ok recap. Dr Jeebus is a troll. please don't feed the troll under the bridge. We established he has ulterior motive to defend the pricing and limited quantity. He also likes to disrupt the actual conversation here. I already feel I've posted way too much on this board, he has put me to shame in the sheer number of posts. By gosh, we should rename this thread the Dr. Jeebus thread for the number of winey bullying posts claiming that this is the first set truly and only for him and that he is always right even when he is wrong. He has reiterated the same points over and over for over ten twenty posts. Flagrant spamming and flaming troll is flagrant. I've complained about the tone and name calling and cursing. The mods seem not to care so. Let's play ignore the troll.
Anyway, lets get back to talking about the set. What other staples would you like to see? How would you like to see your shop distribute this? How many are going to try to get this? What do you think about the distribution (please keep on subject and cordial)? What Color combos in future commander would you like to see?
How is a list of cards that are almost all on the reserved list, and thus completely ineligible for reprinting, "back on topic"?
I was going by the old rules for the reserve list. They used to state that cards on the reserve list could be printed as premium versions. This has since been revised. Here are the current rules. I did though say it was my fantasy picks.
thats what decipher called it. Sadly, decipher stopped making good games a while ago.
But, more to the point, Decipher is the only company that I am aware of that has ever used the "CCG" moniker for it's product. Every other similar game I've seen has been "TCG" - just like Magic.
Indeed, the original concept of Magic was not that it would be a super colelctible itme (although, not many things are originally conceived as such).
Don't get me wrong, I do not have a problem with them making a short run of a product for collectible purposes. Where I am disappointed is that they said this would be "for avid commander players", and it is clearly not. It is for avid Magic Collectors.
It's not geared toward commander players in the slightest.
Ok really we're into semantics. This is the Commander Arsenal thread. So back on subject.
CCG was a term used by Decipher for their Star Wars and Star Trek card games. I was a player of SW back in the day, and always resented Magic for being called a TCG. I thought it was dumb and CCG sounded better. Ah to be a young, naive child back then.
Back to the topic at hand...
Random question for the store owners/managers that are floating around this thread, what are your stores planning on doing with your 2/4?
I'm not a store owner, but there are 5 stores in the area.
One is thinking about holding some sort of tournament (possibly limited)
Another is probably door prizing off the right to buy at one of their events
Shop Three will probably either keep for employee use or raise the price sky high until no one's interested
Shop four I don't really go to, but based on rumor, will hold tournament
Shop five isn't hooked up to wizards play network
Note: only one shop would even consider raising the price
Fair enough. Never seen the Alpha rulebook. Not sure what the Revised rulebook said, but it was referred to everywhere, almost 100% sure by WotC as well, as a CCG.
As for what people would like/expect to see in this set, what does it matter? You've pretty much all made it clear you aren't interested in buying it.
Dude, I would love to buy it. There is no hope beside Wizards changing there mind on distribution of me being able to get it. I can still hope and dream. I do believe that making it more available would be good for the format and for the price of those Alpha and Beta originals I have. I'm a librarian working part time so yah I'm an avid collector, but I won't be able to get because demand is going to kick this into the triple digits. What product is sold locally will be lotto-ed off or obtained by net sellers or the shark population. The only way I could get is if I chose to get ripped off for cards. Under pricing stuff like alpha and beta as a whole actually is worse to the market then selling reprints. If I sell I want to take my time, because that way I can get more money and those cards really are irreplaceable. I also feel for the b&m stores because they are trapped between a rock and a hard place (supply and demand). Magic or Food, I'm going to pick food. I can still play the guess what will be in this set, though.
Actually, Magic was the original CCG and predates the term TCG. I remember being irritated when the term TCG came out (multiple years after Magic hit stores) because it sounded stupid in comparison. To whiny teenage Jeebus, anyway. Regardless, Magic was officially created and marketed as a collectible card game by design. Had the term not changed (by popular usage, not an intentional shift from WotC) then perhaps there would be less complaining about this.
Of course you're welcome to trust the guy saying "it was like," "I'm pretty sure," and "I believe" over the guy who was actually around for this stuff and has the sort of anal retentive attention to detail required to assuredly remember these things accurately.
I was there. I'm as old as you, at least, if the info on your website is correct. Hay Troll get back under your bridge. Any way the original Rules book would like a word with you. I keep trying to bring this conversation idk back to its subject. so, for the last time, what would people like to see/expect to see in Commanders Arsenal?
Actually, anywhere you look, Magic: The Gathering is listed as a CCG and not a TCG. TCGs are more like munchkin or fluxx.
Not that I mind, it really doesn't make the argument that this product is justified stand, I just wanted to clarify that Magic is collectible and really always has been.
So says Beta Black Lotus.
MTG was like the original strategic TCG. I'm pretty sure it predates the use of the term CCG. I beleive that CCG is a misnomer since the determinate for a TCG to be a CCG is a strategic element to the game. Anyway we have tangent-ed off the plane. So back on subject, what do you wish to see in this ennobled buncombe?
I need that Stasis. Also Force of Will just has to be in it. There is no more staple card besides that for blue.
Actually the shop owners in my area are really lets say upset about the limited availability of this. Each shop has already had issues with the FTV and they only see the problem as getting worse. They're asked to fill a demand where the supply just isn't there. Add to that the issue of Release cards and Prerelease cards sometimes not getting to the shops and artificial limits on foreign product (these are very popular in our area). Finally add all the bs that Magic is known to put shops through even to get recognized and the shops are pretty pissed.
Now just watch this be widely available on magic online or something. There's the way to piss off the shops even more. [maybe I shouldn't point that out to WoC.]
Dr. Jeebus is right on this. I can confirm. And if you read all of this thread you'll get that for half of it is us disagreeing about stuff.
I'm hoping Monday or Wednesday. But it will probably be in like 2 weeks.
Ya, people care, players care. Emailing Wizards is the best way. Let them know that they made a mistake with making this such a limited print run. Let them know that labeling this a Commander Product and not a 'Super ultra your never going to get one' collectible is a disservice to the Commander community. Even if you support the product email them and tell them. The majority of players at the shops that I go to really were distressed at the limited availability. My response, email wizards and post.
Yes its one product. My concern is that they seem to be tightening up there grip on some product, creating an artificial limits in supply. I find the lack of supply of this just distasteful, but also I've noticed increased limits on other product like foreign language product and even the occasional supply in stuff like into decks. I'm also concerned about the possibility of them labeling this a success and trying this stunt again.
"There isn't going to be a commander's arsenal next year? This is a one shot product, not a continuing product line."
We know that they are releasing decks next year. The assumption is that the decks will be widely distributed. We really don't know for sure what the distribution will look like.
Ok from a market stand point it's a lot harder to impact the cost of lets say a beta serra angel by reprinting then by under costing the original. One of my friends and I were discussing this the other day. We realized that we actually could break the secondary market for certain cards. I'm not going to go into how to do this. We actually would never do this because no one really benefits, its awful for the game and for players. We have seen it done adjacently before. Its a little more complicated then selling at a reduced cost, but that's part of it. Anyway its much harder to do that through reprinting.
Lets say that they made a widely distributed promo of Snapcaster Mage. That would devalue because Snapcaster Mage is relatively new and hasn't established its long-term value of collect-ability.
Next lets look at Maze of Ith. Lets say they did another promo, but instead of putting it in a vaults they used it as a prerelease card. At first in the secondary market there may be a slight dip for the original, there may not, or it may just rise a bit (this seems to be more common). The original's collect-ability is well established so it will stabilize. The promo ultimately will be worth a fraction of the price though. Players will still appreciate the collect-ability of the original or the Judge Promo, its almost like judging the prerelease card and the other printings as separate products, because they are.
We've seen this happen many times in magic. For example, Serra Angel (until the last couple of printings [note: this is a card that they finally did manage to destabilize the market through reprinting, and how many printings did it take)], Birds of Paradise, Lightning Bolt, Wrath of God, Nicol Bolas...[there are many more].
Anyway I want to say something about the case of Nicol Bolas. Currently, Nicol Bolas is the most expensive of any of the elder dragons. There is this phenomena that sometimes occurs with reprinting where the original gains value, part of this is that the card is introduced to more players. They naturally may then want to pimp out their deck with the original. This adds to the Demand of the originals, and because the originals are a separate 'set' the supply generated does not infringe on the marketability of the originals.
Anyway, lets get back to talking about the set. What other staples would you like to see? How would you like to see your shop distribute this? How many are going to try to get this? What do you think about the distribution (please keep on subject and cordial)? What Color combos in future commander would you like to see?
I was going by the old rules for the reserve list. They used to state that cards on the reserve list could be printed as premium versions. This has since been revised. Here are the current rules. I did though say it was my fantasy picks.
Ok really we're into semantics. This is the Commander Arsenal thread. So back on subject.
Meekstone and Stasis I would enjoy. (Thought I would never say that)
Boris Devilborn, I'm still wishing for my textless Chains of Mephistopheles The Elder Dragons of course. Ramses Overdark; Dakkon Blackblade; Gwendlyn Di Corci; Halfdane; Hazezon Tamar; Lady Caleria; Rohgahh of Kher Keep; Tetsuo Umezawa; I can wish for the Duels. This of course is a fantasy list.
I'm not a store owner, but there are 5 stores in the area.
One is thinking about holding some sort of tournament (possibly limited)
Another is probably door prizing off the right to buy at one of their events
Shop Three will probably either keep for employee use or raise the price sky high until no one's interested
Shop four I don't really go to, but based on rumor, will hold tournament
Shop five isn't hooked up to wizards play network
Note: only one shop would even consider raising the price
Dude, I would love to buy it. There is no hope beside Wizards changing there mind on distribution of me being able to get it. I can still hope and dream. I do believe that making it more available would be good for the format and for the price of those Alpha and Beta originals I have. I'm a librarian working part time so yah I'm an avid collector, but I won't be able to get because demand is going to kick this into the triple digits. What product is sold locally will be lotto-ed off or obtained by net sellers or the shark population. The only way I could get is if I chose to get ripped off for cards. Under pricing stuff like alpha and beta as a whole actually is worse to the market then selling reprints. If I sell I want to take my time, because that way I can get more money and those cards really are irreplaceable. I also feel for the b&m stores because they are trapped between a rock and a hard place (supply and demand). Magic or Food, I'm going to pick food. I can still play the guess what will be in this set, though.
I was there. I'm as old as you, at least, if the info on your website is correct. Hay Troll get back under your bridge. Any way the original Rules book would like a word with you. I keep trying to bring this conversation idk back to its subject. so, for the last time, what would people like to see/expect to see in Commanders Arsenal?
MTG was like the original strategic TCG. I'm pretty sure it predates the use of the term CCG. I beleive that CCG is a misnomer since the determinate for a TCG to be a CCG is a strategic element to the game. Anyway we have tangent-ed off the plane. So back on subject, what do you wish to see in this ennobled buncombe?