Great job so far, Bel & YaunTi. I am happy that these are finally going up. Having an outdated forum meant that I would be unprepared (which I was... for Cehpalid Breakfast... which I lost to... because I didn't know it would use Counterbalance...)
Thalakos Seer costs UU, when you and me were testing SJ you said that was a problem with counter balance. Thalakos Seer is even more conditional and probably less powerful.
Also 2 CC solutions to ichorid/cephalid breakfast are probably too slow especially if you have to transmute for them.
Force is card disadvantge, it turns their spell into hymn. You take 5 damage when it is revealed off of confidant. This deck often doesn't have an extra useless blue card to remove. It can only stop one card, unlike therapy that can often hit 2+ and at the very least it hits there best card when you spend a second card card on it, where Force often just hits the card they bait you with. The only decks I'd really really want force against would be decks playing dread return. Right now Force just doesn't seem necessary.
True - UU is very hard to consistently get, and that's why I didn't play Thalakos Seer today at the tournament (I will write a report in a few hours). I was very happy, however, to be reunited with it, having overlooked it initially. Thanks, Xandercoon. Tom, just two days ago we were discussing how Surveilling Sprite should cost 1 (or be a Wizard). If it cost 1, I suppose it wouldnt need to be a Wizard, and yet, it would be so great. Why have they not printed a 1cc version of the Thalakos Seer/Surveilling Sprite leavesplay-draw ability?
I found out today at the tournament that I didn't even want Leyline vs. Breakfast. In his words, "I only comboed twice today" - and Needle does a better job of stopping that anyway... not to mention Pongify. It is more important to manage their early game with Tarmogoyfs and Counterbalance than to bring in Leyline. And vs. Ichorid, I can get by with just Pongify-myself, eh?
You are 100% right on Force of Will, and I will not be using it in this deck because of the reasons you listed. I prefer Therapy, and, as you explained, for good reason. (The patrons of the tournament today didn't understand this, and kept asking my why I wasn't playing Force of Will / why I was using "eww Sage" - although they were nice to me today and I got a few compliments on Gilded Drake :))
Today I used Epochrasite instead of Phyrexian Arena, and I was very happy I did so. Good choice all around.
In other news, in just one day, a lot of the BB UU 1U 1B U B 2 1 cards have been revealed from Lorwyn
NeoDuress is real! (Thoughtseize)
I don't think I really want to run this over Cabal Therapy, though.
Ringskipper1U common
Creature - Faerie Wizard
Flying
When Ringskipper is put into a Graveyard from play clash with an oponent. If you win, return Ringskipper to its owners hand.
1/1
Pretty crappy compared to Epochrasite and Sage... not worth running, but a cool common nonetheless.
Shapesharer1U rare
Creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling 2U: Target Shapeshifter becomes a copy of target creature until end of your next turn.
1/1
In other words, it counts as a Faerie for Spellfumbler and can become a copy of Dark Confidant or Hunted Horror or opponent's fatty (Tarmogoyf and company) for a long while.
Profane CommandXBB
Sorcery
Choose two -
Target player loses X Life; or return target creature card with converted mana cost X or less from your Graveyard to play; or target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn; or up to X target creatures gain fear until end of turn.
A very nice card! Can this be a useful 1-of or is it too cute?
Overall, the best of these seems to be Shapesharer. Two turns of double-horror 2U after the initial 1U. Not to mention it can get bounced by riptide lab and counts as a Faerie... though it does die to every legal target of Engineered Plague ...and if I'm playing a Plague myself, it has to be boarded out, even... haha
Where are the 1cc Faeries!? Or will there be better 1cc Changelings?
EDIT: Okay, Profane Command is too expensive and is a worse Repeal... Shapesharer is too cute (if it cost U it would be amazingly useful). And Thoughtseize is amazing, but unfortunately is going to cost $20 or more...
Thalakos Seer? Xandercoon I can't believe I didn't see this. Okay Silvergill Adept is instantly pretty crappy. Thank you for pointing this out. I will sleep on this...
There actually was a tournament (that is still in progress by the way - we were waiting since August 2006 for Finn to fight... was it Puzzle? on MWS) that AoK was moderating.
I was the winner of my round, and I fight the winner of Finn vs. Puzzle(?) for the prize.
Considering that one isn't "over" ... you can imagine how - if things don't change - how it would go.
Though I do think it is an excellent way for a subforum (Legacy on Salvation) to get together to know each other and actually help each other out with each deck... kind of like in that one thing called Real Life
And most of the recent decks in Developing have been generic Stax or 'Goyf variants, without much of the interesting innovation that I had previously associated with that forum.
As I said before, I haven't seen non-Tarmogoyf innovation since... .... ....(when was the last time Xandercoon posted a deck?) haha but I jest...
If Bladewing really wants to do it, he gets my vote, but otherwise I vote for Finn (innovator and "sane" writer), or YaunTi (unbiased nuetral) or Belgareth (too far away from the US to take part in possible SallySource bickering ;))
I guess there was so much talk of how Gaddock Teeg is an immediate inclusion in D&T (mainly in the "Lor Spoilers for Legacy" thread in Legacy General) that nobody ever really got around to typing up a list... lol
Crystal Shard is a great effect, true. But then we get hit by the big 3. That lousy 3 has destroyed the candidacy of powerful cards time and time again in the history of this deck. Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge, Reality Acid, Sword of Fire and Ice(?)...
I will add Crystal Shard to the "cards to consider" list on the first page that need to be kept in mind. There are cards in this game that are refuted early on in deck development, but that - after later cards are printed - can return to the deck and be useful. So, it is good to keep a list of cards that fit into the concept though didn't "make the cut" per se. (I try to keep one on the first post, but I haven't kept it up to date recently.)
Extra Cost I think that as of now, the Shard costing 3 kills it. I think R&D could have made it cost 1 if it said "that you own," making it the Rescue Shard, almost. Then, I would definitely consider it, but you pay for options - in this case, 2 "more."
Work Often Enough This, like Stylus/Scepter, only provide card advantage upon the second tap. This is an important thing to keep in mind. Can shard be activated twice in a game? Maybe not. Can Stylus/Scepter? Hopefully yes.
Drake/Scepter Win without CA Yes, they probably work well enough together that the Drake, after doing its job, can be disposed of, rather than be reused. At the cost of 2 more, I suppose the card advantage could then instead be made up with a draw spell. (Night's Whisper, Phyrexian Arena). So now that I've broken it down to that level, I realize that it costing 3 is not only a concern when broken down, but also when lumped as "3" - as it implies that it has to be layed down in one turn, AND to tap out.
This is only worth doing if you are transmuting (goes and gets a creature to play with Vial, often, so its not truly tapping out on turn 3 - this is a delicate synergy that amazingly works out just right. Vial costs 1, 2 turns later it is ready to tap for 2, and also 2 turns later you have 3 land... so you can transmute for a 2cc creature/thing at that time. (I couldn't have predicted this at the time I made the deck, and yet it's something so fundamental that it itself implies that, in deck building, you cannot always perfectly influence each and every synergy upon creating a list of cards you want to include.)
Again, by lumping it to 3, it also means that it cannot be played before you played the item that produced the token.
Oh and last it is harder to resolve around counters. If this were rare, they'd make it cost less. If it were "own" they'd make it cost less. I guess they don't always have me in mind (haha actually they don't ever have rogue in mind, I doubt Wizards is reading this thread right now.)
Speaking of all of this, as a side note, I really wish they'd do a theme in a set in which they PURPOSELY make spells cost a lot less and tack on instead a life total penalty. (This actually already exists... some crappy Black Snake in the core sets.) For example, Crystal Shard would cost 1, but when it came into play, you lose 2-3 life or something.
Thank you all for the continued support and suggestions. I really tried to bring this to Flint this weekend, but my mother isn't letting me drive. Go figure. Is this the first instance of a deck's development being halted by a mother? haha
While I was posting the above long response, I didn't see btraut's post. A pseudo-sarnath :p... In response to it:
I believe that Phyrexian Arena is a decent choice for the time being. Else I would include the 4th card here. Arena is temporary, and you can consider it to be the 5th Confidant or 4th Infiltrator. Do not bother with Shadowmage, it costs 3. Shadowmage does nothing vs. Goblins. At all. Neither does Arena, but I broke the 3 barrier for this one card because it doesn't die to creature removal - which is also the reason for playing it as the 5th Confidant, as the Confidants are better, but die to all removal. This slot, being temporary, can be replaced by the 1x Counterbalance... or removed for room for other things.... or replaced with Lorwyn cards... and so on.
In fact, 2BB for 7 cards (Colfenor's Plans works with Scepter/Stylus to make it go away) isn't even that good in VH because getting 2BB is impossible.
Last, I will make the final decision on Force of Will once I see the entire Lorwyn spoiler in order to consider the rest of the Faeries. (I am praying for good utility and/or compliment to Spellfumbler. There ought to be something good at UB, B, or U, hopefully (as mentioned above), with a life penalty.) And yes, an indexing/draw spell would help with Force/Confidant, but the Force would be replacing the Indexer, as I think you know... Also, pre-Lorwyn-options, Force was considered in Therapy's slot, since Sage could prevent Confidant from revealing it, but at that point, if Sage was around, then Therapy was simply better. (In fact, Therapy is almost only good with Sage of Epityr, Eternal Witness, and Wall of Blossoms, etc.) I am only considering Force of Will if the deck does not use Sage. This creates sort of a catch-22, but I am praying that it will become irrelevant once a good Faerie is printed.
I think the second AoK (right before she left) changed the forum subsections (that that "Legacy Group" was formed to put together - does anyone remember that?) from how it was to how it is... things got out of hand.
In that group, I made sure AoK separated things clearly, and wrote more details in the descriptions of each - basically I wanted "New Ideas" to be a subforum for all new ideas, it seems logical. So "New Ideas" + "Developing" + "Competitive" ... without simply implying that New Ideas belonged in Developing (contrary to its name) and Competitive are sticked, with Developing not stickied... or however it is randomly set up now.
I think there are a lot of changes that can be made around here, and it will be awesome to see what can come out of it. For the first time, now that Extended is rotating WotC's grip on player's buy-me-because-your-deck-rotated obsession into oblivion, interest in Legacy has really increased (deservedly so)!
My nomination would either be Bladewing019 because he knows the format very well, is well spoken, and is sane. My other choice would be YaunTi because he is an ubiased nuetral member. Even if he isn't a Legacy veteran, this way he will do what is most important of all: consider all opinions and listen to feedback and thoughts on the forum and decks in general.
EDIT: Am I the only one that noticed the Pan's Labyrinth reference? ...unless it wasn't.
It seems I flip it once every two games, sometimes more How about you? If it wasn't for this, I would feel better about playing Force of Will over Therapy.
So yes, 1 Counterbalance is kinda cool... but is it stronger to have an Arena out, or to have a Counterbalance out in general...
Accidentally Banding? I believe they could attempt to try to bring back Banding if they could make it good. I haven't read the rules for Banding in a year or so, but is there anything (any When this bands, trigger blah) that could make Banding powerful / worth playing? If so, they could associate it with a tribe.... Kithkin... well, next set.
Speaking of predictions or requests if you like to think of them as that hehe... I believe that the one-drop merfolk will be something like Surveilling Sprite without Flying. Or so I hope
Oh, and as Viroid has so kindly pointed out, Silvergill Adept has replaced Raven Familiar in Aluren in Legacy.
I agree that unexplored design space is only brought up a few times each set, and I love the times that it is explored, but I understand that not every card can be original. It is just something you have to live with in order to get to the original cards.
I think Doran, the Siege Tower (nice new idea) and a few others in this set make up for any redundancy/unoriginality of other cards to past cards (Wormfang cycle, World Enchantments).
The only exception to this was that the Time Spiral block didn't have that much originality in it (only some of the blue cards, to tell you the truth), but I still was okay with this because of one other element of designing this game: sometimes it is necessary to revisit old designs in order to expand them. Specifically, if they do not revisit Planeswalkers in a set in the future, then it would have been all for naught.
Though now that brings up an interesting side point haha... how often will they print Planeswalkers hereafter? 5 (one per color) per set? Or less than that? More? Infrequently?
True - UU is very hard to consistently get, and that's why I didn't play Thalakos Seer today at the tournament (I will write a report in a few hours). I was very happy, however, to be reunited with it, having overlooked it initially. Thanks, Xandercoon. Tom, just two days ago we were discussing how Surveilling Sprite should cost 1 (or be a Wizard). If it cost 1, I suppose it wouldnt need to be a Wizard, and yet, it would be so great. Why have they not printed a 1cc version of the Thalakos Seer/Surveilling Sprite leavesplay-draw ability?
I found out today at the tournament that I didn't even want Leyline vs. Breakfast. In his words, "I only comboed twice today" - and Needle does a better job of stopping that anyway... not to mention Pongify. It is more important to manage their early game with Tarmogoyfs and Counterbalance than to bring in Leyline. And vs. Ichorid, I can get by with just Pongify-myself, eh?
You are 100% right on Force of Will, and I will not be using it in this deck because of the reasons you listed. I prefer Therapy, and, as you explained, for good reason. (The patrons of the tournament today didn't understand this, and kept asking my why I wasn't playing Force of Will / why I was using "eww Sage" - although they were nice to me today and I got a few compliments on Gilded Drake :))
Today I used Epochrasite instead of Phyrexian Arena, and I was very happy I did so. Good choice all around.
In other news, in just one day, a lot of the BB UU 1U 1B U B 2 1 cards have been revealed from Lorwyn
- NeoDuress is real! (Thoughtseize)
I don't think I really want to run this over Cabal Therapy, though.
- Ringskipper 1U common
Creature - Faerie Wizard
- Shapesharer 1U rare
Creature - Shapeshifter
- Profane Command XBB
Sorcery
Overall, the best of these seems to be Shapesharer. Two turns of double-horror 2U after the initial 1U. Not to mention it can get bounced by riptide lab and counts as a Faerie... though it does die to every legal target of Engineered PlagueFlying
When Ringskipper is put into a Graveyard from play clash with an oponent. If you win, return Ringskipper to its owners hand.
1/1
Pretty crappy compared to Epochrasite and Sage... not worth running, but a cool common nonetheless.
Changeling
2U: Target Shapeshifter becomes a copy of target creature until end of your next turn.
1/1
In other words, it counts as a Faerie for Spellfumbler and can become a copy of Dark Confidant or Hunted Horror or opponent's fatty (Tarmogoyf and company) for a long while.
Choose two -
Target player loses X Life; or return target creature card with converted mana cost X or less from your Graveyard to play; or target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn; or up to X target creatures gain fear until end of turn.
A very nice card! Can this be a useful 1-of or is it too cute?
Where are the 1cc Faeries!? Or will there be better 1cc Changelings?
EDIT: Okay, Profane Command is too expensive and is a worse Repeal... Shapesharer is too cute (if it cost U it would be amazingly useful). And Thoughtseize is amazing, but unfortunately is going to cost $20 or more...
I was the winner of my round, and I fight the winner of Finn vs. Puzzle(?) for the prize.
Considering that one isn't "over" ... you can imagine how - if things don't change - how it would go.
Though I do think it is an excellent way for a subforum (Legacy on Salvation) to get together to know each other and actually help each other out with each deck... kind of like in that one thing called Real Life
If Bladewing really wants to do it, he gets my vote, but otherwise I vote for Finn (innovator and "sane"
4 Gilded Drake
3 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
1 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
4 Aether Vial
3 Despotic Scepter
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
2 Riptide Lab
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
I find the fact that this version has literally NO CHANCE against Goblins pretty funny... but post-FS it really stopped being a priority.
I will add Crystal Shard to the "cards to consider" list on the first page that need to be kept in mind. There are cards in this game that are refuted early on in deck development, but that - after later cards are printed - can return to the deck and be useful. So, it is good to keep a list of cards that fit into the concept though didn't "make the cut" per se. (I try to keep one on the first post, but I haven't kept it up to date recently.)
Extra Cost I think that as of now, the Shard costing 3 kills it. I think R&D could have made it cost 1 if it said "that you own," making it the Rescue Shard, almost. Then, I would definitely consider it, but you pay for options - in this case, 2 "more."
Work Often Enough This, like Stylus/Scepter, only provide card advantage upon the second tap. This is an important thing to keep in mind. Can shard be activated twice in a game? Maybe not. Can Stylus/Scepter? Hopefully yes.
Drake/Scepter Win without CA Yes, they probably work well enough together that the Drake, after doing its job, can be disposed of, rather than be reused. At the cost of 2 more, I suppose the card advantage could then instead be made up with a draw spell. (Night's Whisper, Phyrexian Arena). So now that I've broken it down to that level, I realize that it costing 3 is not only a concern when broken down, but also when lumped as "3" - as it implies that it has to be layed down in one turn, AND to tap out.
This is only worth doing if you are transmuting (goes and gets a creature to play with Vial, often, so its not truly tapping out on turn 3 - this is a delicate synergy that amazingly works out just right. Vial costs 1, 2 turns later it is ready to tap for 2, and also 2 turns later you have 3 land... so you can transmute for a 2cc creature/thing at that time. (I couldn't have predicted this at the time I made the deck, and yet it's something so fundamental that it itself implies that, in deck building, you cannot always perfectly influence each and every synergy upon creating a list of cards you want to include.)
Again, by lumping it to 3, it also means that it cannot be played before you played the item that produced the token.
Oh and last it is harder to resolve around counters. If this were rare, they'd make it cost less. If it were "own" they'd make it cost less. I guess they don't always have me in mind
Speaking of all of this, as a side note, I really wish they'd do a theme in a set in which they PURPOSELY make spells cost a lot less and tack on instead a life total penalty. (This actually already exists... some crappy Black Snake in the core sets.) For example, Crystal Shard would cost 1, but when it came into play, you lose 2-3 life or something.
Thank you all for the continued support and suggestions. I really tried to bring this to Flint this weekend, but my mother isn't letting me drive. Go figure. Is this the first instance of a deck's development being halted by a mother? haha
While I was posting the above long response, I didn't see btraut's post. A pseudo-sarnath :p... In response to it:
I believe that Phyrexian Arena is a decent choice for the time being. Else I would include the 4th card here. Arena is temporary, and you can consider it to be the 5th Confidant or 4th Infiltrator. Do not bother with Shadowmage, it costs 3. Shadowmage does nothing vs. Goblins. At all. Neither does Arena, but I broke the 3 barrier for this one card because it doesn't die to creature removal - which is also the reason for playing it as the 5th Confidant, as the Confidants are better, but die to all removal. This slot, being temporary, can be replaced by the 1x Counterbalance... or removed for room for other things.... or replaced with Lorwyn cards... and so on.
In fact, 2BB for 7 cards (Colfenor's Plans works with Scepter/Stylus to make it go away) isn't even that good in VH because getting 2BB is impossible.
Last, I will make the final decision on Force of Will once I see the entire Lorwyn spoiler in order to consider the rest of the Faeries. (I am praying for good utility and/or compliment to Spellfumbler. There ought to be something good at UB, B, or U, hopefully (as mentioned above), with a life penalty.) And yes, an indexing/draw spell would help with Force/Confidant, but the Force would be replacing the Indexer, as I think you know... Also, pre-Lorwyn-options, Force was considered in Therapy's slot, since Sage could prevent Confidant from revealing it, but at that point, if Sage was around, then Therapy was simply better. (In fact, Therapy is almost only good with Sage of Epityr, Eternal Witness, and Wall of Blossoms, etc.) I am only considering Force of Will if the deck does not use Sage. This creates sort of a catch-22, but I am praying that it will become irrelevant once a good Faerie is printed.
In that group, I made sure AoK separated things clearly, and wrote more details in the descriptions of each - basically I wanted "New Ideas" to be a subforum for all new ideas, it seems logical. So "New Ideas" + "Developing" + "Competitive" ... without simply implying that New Ideas belonged in Developing (contrary to its name) and Competitive are sticked, with Developing not stickied... or however it is randomly set up now.
I think there are a lot of changes that can be made around here, and it will be awesome to see what can come out of it. For the first time, now that Extended is rotating WotC's grip on player's buy-me-because-your-deck-rotated obsession into oblivion, interest in Legacy has really increased (deservedly so)!
My nomination would either be Bladewing019 because he knows the format very well, is well spoken, and is sane. My other choice would be YaunTi because he is an ubiased nuetral member. Even if he isn't a Legacy veteran, this way he will do what is most important of all: consider all opinions and listen to feedback and thoughts on the forum and decks in general.
EDIT: Am I the only one that noticed the Pan's Labyrinth reference?
So yes, 1 Counterbalance is kinda cool... but is it stronger to have an Arena out, or to have a Counterbalance out in general...
Shouldn't these be uncommon? They're not that amazing, are they? I know they're great, but... 5 rare slots?
Shadowmage Infiltrator - a Wizard, but costing 3 is too much.
Dimir Guildmage - a Wizard, awesome art, but abilities are heftily priced.
I think you can go down to 18 rats, and show us what you come up with for a UB version.
Wojek Siren > Marhsalling Cry
I would play as much discard as you can. In here you should have Castigate and Augur, but if you go UB, play Augur still and maybe Stupor.
Speaking of predictions or requests if you like to think of them as that
Oh, and as Viroid has so kindly pointed out, Silvergill Adept has replaced Raven Familiar in Aluren in Legacy.
I think Doran, the Siege Tower (nice new idea) and a few others in this set make up for any redundancy/unoriginality of other cards to past cards (Wormfang cycle, World Enchantments).
The only exception to this was that the Time Spiral block didn't have that much originality in it (only some of the blue cards, to tell you the truth), but I still was okay with this because of one other element of designing this game: sometimes it is necessary to revisit old designs in order to expand them. Specifically, if they do not revisit Planeswalkers in a set in the future, then it would have been all for naught.
Though now that brings up an interesting side point haha... how often will they print Planeswalkers hereafter? 5 (one per color) per set? Or less than that? More? Infrequently?