Played against this list in my league. If you want to see how a game might play out with it I'll have the video up on my channel in a little bit. Granted I don't have the most experience with Kiki Chord, so I am playing very slowly and probably suboptimally...DON'T JUDGE ME...but please offer feedback on lines I miss https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
Nice list;; Will you test it eventually? I'll do !!
If you can make some videos with this list;; it would be great ! i like your videos.
Can do. I think I might do Kiki Chord this week though as I've been toying around with Eldritch Evolution and Renegade Rallier...it's pretty fun. If I get extra time this weekend though...
@Velthov
I think the Cryptic list would benefit from -1 Hoots, +1 Tasigur. I only ran two Tasigur bc of Flayer. Without Flayer filtering I'd want 3rd Tasigur for mid/late game card adv. Also might consider cutting one Squall for a Go for the Throat as an extra answer to Smasher/prime time etc.
Midrange list. Pairing New Lily with counters is infinitely better than LotV. I think you may cut a visions for an extra TS...otherwise It looks fun. Would like some Scours in there somehow.
Both look fun though...and fun is most important at FNM I feel.
@raikenxy
Congrats! Spreading Seas is slick. It's a great card I hadn't thought of. Would pair excellently with Collective Brutality too. I also like the Lumbering Falls with the uptick in Fatal Push.
I wonder if these more controlling lists would be able to get away with playing Sylvan Advocate. Could be a two of in place of Flayer in my list going up to 3 Tasigur. Plays offense/defense early, probably better than Flayer most of the time early and pairs as a big threat with man lands late.
The godfather of BGx Willy Edel tweeted his first take on Sultai BGx yesterday. Said he went 4-1 w/it in a league. He goes with Rain of Tears over Fulminator Mage in the sideboard in the hopes of getting extra uses out of Snappy. He goes DEEP on Damnation, and has the full playset of Collective Brutality in the 75. I like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as a way to both fight midrange decks that are trying to go bigger as well as being a pretty great threat against control decks in my experience.
I like the manabase. The 4 Darkslick Shores incentivizes you to fetch Forest or Swamp early which is better for Blood Moon. I love Treetop Village in general, and since you're more aggressive in this build the cheaper activation is probably worth it. There is definitely some room to tune here, but generally speaking it looks good.
It looks like he's relying on Jace instead of Snapcaster because it's an extra way to get card types in the yard through his loot ability. I used to do that with Jace and Bitterblossom if BB was useless in the matchup or just a redundant copy.
I'm guessing with Architects he likes the idea that it replaces itself while fueling delirium? It's also flexible in the sense that he can cycle opponents EOT if he's holding up mana? I'm wondering if it should be replaced with just another target for Traverse.
What smoresnbacon said. The deck is super toolboxy and Jace allows him to filter away cards that aren't good in the matchup for ones that ideally are, while simultaneously fueling Delirium. Jace also offers an alternate win condition in a deck full of creatures that can clog up the battlefield if necessary. The other thing is the deck is heavy on sorceries while pretty light on instants which are better with Snapcaster Mage.
I haven't been doing very well with the deck lately either. After the quick 5-0 and 4-1 in my opening two leagues it has gone really poorly lately. I think I had 5 wins total in my last 4 leagues with the Cryptic build. I definitely feel that to some extent the blame is on myself for keeping to many hands that likely should have been mulliganed. It's tough though because so many hands just have a mix of excellent cards that's easy to get trapped into looking at the power in hand versus your ability to interact throughout the game. The thing is modern, while slightly slower after the bans is still a fast format and if you aren't doing anything until T2 on the draw it's going to be hard coming back even with great cards in your hand.
Also I find this deck still can easily get stuck in the midrange trap of having the wrong cards in hand since the creatures tend to be proactive and the rest of the deck reactive. This is less of an issue than with the Grixis versions where almost all of their proactive cards (Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command, Snapcaster Mage) are also reactive, save the Tasigur's. I'm not done with the deck, but I am trying out some other Sutlai brews for a bit. I went 3-2 in a league with an untested Sultai Death's Shadow brew heavy on hand disruption and running the full playset of Stubborn Denial backed up with 4 Death's Shadow, 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Grim Flayer, and while I think that deck is a long way from ready it reminded me of how when I played BUG Delver that I always thought that this was how these colors want to be played. Cheap counterspells protecting an aggressive deck.
@Godrik1374
I like the list. I have an unhealthy love for Stubborn Denial. When I was playing my Delver variant I actually ran 4/3 Thought Cast over Serum Visions just to help get those Delve fatties down faster and to turn on Stubborn quicker. Just something to consider. Also I personally haven't found Damnation to be necessary, and these builds are a little more creature heavy so it's somewhat counter-intuitive to what we're doing as well. Have you found it to be that necessary? I have actually been running two Bitterblossom in the side now to help fight Grixis Delver, Control Variants, and it's also can be very good versus Affinity. Far better than Tarmogoyf is in the matchup.
I mean wow.. the only blue symbols in the deck are Creeping tar pit, 2x Snapcaster, and 2x Thought Scour..strangest list I've seen
This is very similar to the first list I built with Fatal Push actually. If you're going to dip into blue but want to stay base BGx this is the most effective way I've found. You're essentially a BG Delirium deck splashing blue for Thought Scour (instant speed Delirium enabler), Snapcaster Mages and some sideboard countermagic to make the blue worthwhile. Honestly if I didn't enjoy playing with Cryptic Command so much I would probably running something very similar to this.
So I've been brewing Sultai for a while now (since Gerard won the SCG Open forever ago), but have always come up short. Once I found this page, and with the addition of Fatal Push, it has made my brewing gears start turning once again. This is the list that I've been testing in paper with surprisingly good results.
I started this list with four Snapcaster Mage and two Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, but I slowly started flipping the two as I continued testing. JVP is an actual threat, and plays better with the hand disruption package I'm trying to run. Still, a few Snapcaster Mages are definitely required and I've found that two is the correct number for this list in particular. He's not something you want to see in an overabundance, but nice to have when we need to flashback a Fatal Push or a Cryptic Command every once in a while.
Liliana, the Last Hope acts as our Kolaghan's Command and an alternate win condition. If you haven't tried running her then I definitely recommend testing a few to see how she feels because she has been nothing but impressive in testing.
The mana has been great, and I've never had much trouble casting Liliana, the Last Hope on turn three then Cryptic Command on turn four. My mana base is similar to a Jund list, but with a few differences.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this build of Sultai because I could go into more detail on each and every card choice, but that would require time that I don't have at the moment (maybe later on this evening?). There's so many ways to build this deck that you can really tune it to your specific play style. Depending on your local meta I could easily see a more counter heavy version backed up by more Snapcaster Mages, or even some Thought Scours and a few Tasigur, the Golden Fangs if you wanted to go down that route. Sultai can be anything you tune it to be, and that's why I love this color combination.
I looked at your list, saw Jace and thought...yeah but it doesn't work as great with instants...and then looked at the rest of the list. Lists with Jace tend to be to slow/dependent on the graveyard and that made him really bad for a while, but he has game in a slightly slower meta for sure. I will say I don't tend to like Jace builds against Tron due to the lack of countermagic decks with Jace typically run, and I value beating Tron.
That said I spoke to a few people at GP Detroit (Eldrazi Winter) who were running Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in UW Control builds with Cryptic Command as I really like playing with Jace. I was curious about using Cryptic with Jace since he kind of requires a sorcery focused spell base and they each talked about how Cryptic is still an good card at Sorcery speed due to the bounce/draw/tap(when you're trying to close) modes.
I've definitely considered him as a sort of post board creature for grindy games. Maybe I should give it a try.
@Smoresnbacon - As I mentioned a little ways back I used to play BUG Delver a lot leading up to GP Detroit. I loved the deck, even 4-0'd a daily with it once but it got really bad when Eldrazi Oblivion Sower decks started showing up along with the Twin/Amulet bans forcing decks to get low and fast. Now that the format has started to slow down, and with the addition of Push it really could be decently positioned again. The absolute nuts in that deck is Stubborn Denial. It was absolutely bonkers with Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills, and Tasigur turning it on. I don't like the Murderous Cut or really the Shadow of Doubt in his list, but otherwise the list looks pretty solid.
I do however, have a couple of questions for which your response would be greatly appreciated:
1. Is it hard to achieve Delirium with Grim Flayer in this kind of build? I know he is a bit of an MVP in Abzan where we see the pitching of Lingering Souls to Collective Brutality feeding Flayer.
2. What was the reasoning behind only playing two copies of Flayer vs Abzan's four in your previous builds? Why play Tasigur over Flayer? Tasigur eating up your graveyard seems slightly counterintuitive in a build containing a playset of Goyfs. Does the amount of spells we have and the amount of counters/removal we use on our opponent make Tasigur's Delve effect on Goyf negligible? Do we play two Tasigur to circumvent the threat of being blown out by things like Chalice on two and general 2 CMC hate that is all-so-abundant in Modern?
3. Going back to Collective Brutality: How powerful is its synergy with Snapcaster Mage? I couldn't help but notice your current build does not have any of the former.
4. I am a huge fan of Cryptic Command, albeit its 1UUU does come across as demanding for a tri-colour deck. Has this ever been an issue for you and if so, how often/where?
5. I noticed some of your videos that you did not originally play hand disruption in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, nor in the form of Liliana of the Veil (at one point saying the latter wasn't good in this shell). How has your opinion changed?
Hi, I'm glad the recordings offered insight in any manner. I mostly do them for fun and I frequently bounce between decks (especially for recording) and so I unfortunately tend to have plenty of play mistakes I find especially when I re-watch. Even so it's nice to be able to show off different deck ideas that maybe don't have much coverage. Jund is by far my most played deck and yet I have almost no videos for that deck because there are so many videos of excellent players playing them. Anyway, it's always nice to hear when the videos are appreciated.
In regards to your questions I kind of short handed them below with my responses immediately after.
1) Grim Flayer is Delirium difficult? Delirium is somewhat difficult to hit in this deck. This is part of why I only play 2 copies. When I think of UBx and I think of the different colors you can combine and what they offer, in my opinion what differentiates green are the excellent catch all answers Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse and threats and the threats are what differentiate Sultai from Grixis or Esper. Since we don't have the direct damage to race combo decks, and the hate cards white has, nor do we have the ability to truly go to 8 once cmc removal like red/white do with Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile for aggro decks we need to emphasize the threats in green to both hold the fort in aggro and close quickly versus combo. Tarmogoyf is a no brainer, and the next best threat/wall in my opinion is Grim Flayer. Even at a 2/2 against combo he comes down on T2 and starts filtering for you to the cards that matter. Against aggro you can trade him off or he's a 4/4 and difficult to get past. I had dropped down to two copies from three since Delirium was difficult to trigger, but I think I am going to go back up to three for the reasons mentioned above. I haven't actually tried a list of this style with four copies as of yet, but it probably is something I should try...but I haven't to give myself more interactive cards early. I also have been considering, due to comments above, replacing what I think the 3rd copy of Grim Flayer would be with Tireless Tracker as it's a potential excellent grindy source of card advantage and hits pretty hard. However against most combo decks I think I'd prefer the two drop.
2) Why only two Grim Flayer? Is Tasigur, the Golden Fang counter-intuitive? So my answer above explains why two Flayer and why I think that is wrong. Tasigur works really well in this deck for a few reasons. It's pretty easy to quickly fill the graveyard and get him down, what with the fetches and Thought Scour which coincidentally works really well with Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage, and Grim Flayer. So again it offers us a potential early threat and wall, which is a big part of the equation...essentially he's a pseudo green threat. Tasigur also offers legitimate card advantage in longer grindier games which is something this build otherwise doesn't have. Tasigur's delve effect is pretty negligible in regards to Tarmogoyf, but the delve does present problems for Grim Flayer usually. Finally I do actually care that his CMC is 6. Every other creature in the deck has a CMC of two. I'm less worried about Chalice of the Void than I am of Engineered Explosives which is a very good card in the format right now.
3) Collective Brutality and synergy with Snapcaster Mage? In my videos I actually am running two Collective Brutality. The list on the right was showing my most recent iteration of the decklist. This was because I was recording the videos as playbacks. I like Collective Brutality and I likely will go back to them. They're just so flexible. The hand disruption in particular is nice, especially against combo since I'm not running any Inquisition or Thoughtseize. I don't know that the synergy with Snapcaster is all that impressive. I rarely find myself pitching extra cards in this build, at least compared to when I use it Jund. I mean the synergy of pitching a spell to Collective Brutality to snap back exists I just haven't run into it a ton as of yet.
4) Is Cryptic Command mana an issue? No. I haven't found it to be an issue at all. I basically copied Corey Burkhart in how he built his manabase for Grixis Control to support 4 Cryptic Command with 4 Thought Scour and 4 Serum Visions on 22 lands and adjusted it to match BUG colors. I believe I could be better in how I fetch out my lands to take less damage but I have not found hitting UUU to be a problem in the slightest.
5) Why no hand disruption? The million dollar question. Honestly Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize into Tarmogoyf is kind of my thing. Like I said I play Jund a LOT...but I want so badly for Sultai to be new Jund. I have spent a little effort trying to find a way to mix the hand disruption with the countermagic, but I typically find them to be a bit at odds. It's possible I'm too attached to Liliana of the Veil and so in my mind hand disruption without her just looks bad when it isn't. Lily is really pretty bad with countermagic in my experience. The advantage of planeswalkers is their recursive use, the card per turn value, but I have historically found in my UBx builds that I often don't want to uptick Lily often while holding countermagic/interaction which is extremely telegraphing. LotV wants you to get hands empty, but UBx in general and decks running lots of interactive spells want to have options in hand. Liliana, the Last Hope just plays better with these builds. If I'm going to add blue to a BG shell (think hand disruption) instead of green to a UB shell then I want to be certain the cards I'm bringing are worth it. So far I feel like the blue cards you add to a BG shell are not worth dipping into blue, where adding green to a UB shell is more effective. The most powerful cards in blue are Cryptic Command and Snapcaster Mage. I don't think it's worth dipping into blue for just Snapcaster and Mana Leak. I do think it's worth considering a cut of Serum Visions for IoK or TS, but I think you need to add a land if you do. The loss of filtering hurts, but the raw power of ripping a card may offset that loss. That said, Serum Visions is often a far better late game draw than hand disruption in builds like this. Maybe the deck could even run 4+ hand disruption in the side and transition into that over Thought Scour or some of the countermagic in matchups when it's more appropriate. There is lots of testing to still be done in this regard.
Sorry if I rambled on, but again I love the thought of a midrange control build of Sultai and want to help get there.
@naclmolecule
Out of curiosity what did you cut to make room for the 4th Thought Scour? Do you like the Burkhart manabase so far? I actually just updated my list cutting an Island for a 10th fetch after watching his MOCS videos. He makes an excellent point about how it's not really realistic to get all 3 Islands versus a Blood Moon deck anyway. Usually you're pulling most Cryptics and only need one to two Islands post board anyway, or you're making certain you can counter/remove the Blood Moon in response. I'm trying that out. However I'm running two Verdant Catacombs instead of blue fetches to keep my black and green fetch count at 6 since both of those colors are also important to me. I am considering making one of them an off color blue fetch instead but so far I like where it is at.
@Akalah
I've played a little bit with Tireless Tracker in straight BG builds and it is really good at grinding. It really does have the ability to a great card advantage engine in a deck like this. I really think adding one that you might try and use in the midgame when you're starting to run lower on cards in hand sounds excellent. I think it's possible I MIGHT be able to cut one removal spell from my current list. Definitely a great reminder and something I'm stewing on.
@Smoresnbacon
@Godrik1374
Glad you like the build. For anyone who is interested or into this sort of thing I recorded my playbacks from a couple of my leagues and uploaded them to my youtube channel. I was also going to record my 2-3(7-7) league but ran out of time. I may do that this weekend if I have time or I may just record a new league. I'm not a flawless player by any means, so expect some mistakes, and feel free to let me know if you find any as I'm always looking to improve.
TGCRequiem Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
Sultai Control Playlist - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtMOxBZ_cEw9lxr5aZCr_icyqJ7gyWikS
@Argomok
I agree the land count is low. I feel like with 22 lands, I need the 4 Serum Visions and 3 Thought Scour to make sure my mana is smooth, however I'm also heavily relying on hitting 4 mana consistently around T4-T6. You're a little lower curve and aren't as dependent on Cryptic so you might get away with 21, but I do have some concerns about your manabase in general. I'm assuming you don't have access to Misty Rainforest or Verdant Catacombs (hopefully they get reprinted soon). I think you actually did a good job of hitting reasonable numbers despite, but instead of a Steam Vents I almost wonder if you might be better to just run a single Darkslick Shores or Drowned Catacomb in its place. I also think you could probably replace a Breeding Pool with Botanical Sanctum or a Hinterland Harbor. Breeding Pool seems like the shock you'll have the most trouble accessing directly and I don't think you need two of each shock. I was also thinking you might find a little more flexibility by making one of your Bloodstained Mire's an offcolor blue fetch like Flooded Strand.
I don't know if you all can tell but Sultai is my favorite tri color combination ever and so I'm super excited to finally have a reasonable deck in those colors I can play in Modern. Bless you Fatal Push! I did have a pretty decent run with BUG Delver back in mid to late 2015 before Eldrazi and then hyper aggressive modern kind of killed that off. Now that the meta is slowing down slightly though it even might be fun to dust that off again though it probably still can't handle Eldrazi. Anyway it is a good time to Sultai!
For the record, this is my latest midrange build. I haven't been playing with it very much though since I've been playing the Control version and have found that a bit more consistent. I also do maindeck the Mana Leak because in G1 you just don't know what you're playing and it's the best catch all you can get despite its flaws, and just hope you close fast. It's also important to note that Mana Leak grows your Goyfs where Remand does not. Anyway I know you don't have several of these cards, but this is more of the approach I took with building midrange.
Is there any merit to a hybrid between "Cryptic BUG" and Midrange BUG or is there simply not enough deck space to accommodate both?
There is some merit, but I think the BUG Midrange builds, more so than any other BGx build, suffers the most from a contradiction in desire to be proactive versus reactive. Jund's red reactive spells can help proactively close the game. White is using powerful hate cards to proactively shut down opponents. The hand disruption is generally proactively trying to clear the way for your creatures or delay your opponent until you can. Countermagic by nature has to be reactive and so it creates this tension in BUG more so than in other decks. It might be different if there was a "true" counterspell at two cmc that could be held up as a catch all counter (in conjunction with something like Abrupt Decay), but Mana Leak is the best you have, and unfortunately the card is terrible late game and BUG is the most likely to run into the long game. This leads to running more conditional counters like Spell Snare, Countersquall, Stubborn Denial etc since they are at least "hard" counters.
This again just leads to an issue where instead of having either Abrupt Decay or Counterspell you have Abrupt Decay or conditional countermagic. This leads to a lot more instances where your hand will just NOT line up with what your opponent is doing. This is why I think the midrange builds of BUG need to just naturally be more reactive. That said I still think there is some merit because countermagic allows BUG to do one thing the other BGx matchups can't do and that is have game in nearly EVERY matchup. So while with that style of build you may lose a lot more due to awkward draws you're also going to have days where everything lines up, Inquisition away their removal, slam a Tarmogoyf, hold up countermagic/removal that is appropriate in the matchup and you just can't lose.
Haha, I would run LotV if I could afford it, although I would probably need goyfs first. But I have been looking to alter this deck to make room for counterspells as well, although it seems impossible the more I look at it.
Guess I just need to work on cutting cards for Thought Scour then. Thank you.
You are going to lose every game to Tron that they don't stumble hard with that build. It already takes them stumbling to beat Tron 25% of the time with Jund when you have Goyf in your deck, which you don't. Thought Scour, Mishra's Bauble and Liliana of the Veil will help you enable Delirium but it is still going to be to slow to fight Tron with any consistency in the build you have.
The question is how important is fighting Tron to you? If it's just an occasional matchup in your meta don't worry about it and expect to lose. If you get Goyfs you can still expect to lose but you may get a few more wins. You can also try Fulminator Mage plus Surgical Extraction in the side, but their good draws still often beat the draws you are lucky enough to draw it. This is why so many Jund decks just don't bother with siding for the matchup. Why spend 5 cards in your side to maybe get an extra 5% in the matchup at the cost of so many other matchups getting REAL sideboard help. Your deck is 95% a Jund build. If you have a small play group and you play against Tron a LOT, and care enough to fight them, then you're going to need to rethink your approach.
The way to beat Tron with BUG is with tempo and counter magic. Stubborn Denial, Negate, Countersquall, Snapcaster Mage paired with Tarmogoyf, fast Tasigur's, Grim Flayer or Delver of Secrets...maybe even Hooting Mandrills (if you're really supporting Stubborn Denial). Stick a threat and counter the spells that matter. I also think the Cryptic Command versions that are slightly less low to the ground, similar to what I'm currently running, are up to the fight as you can counter enough spells to get most of the way there with a Snapcaster or two.
I cut a Grim Flayer today going down to only two to add Liliana, the Last Hope today. I ran it through another Friendly League and went 4-1 (9-2) in games. Liliana was excellent. I also cut one Fulminator Mage from the sideboard to bring in a Jace, Architect of Thought. I thought it would just be good in grindier midrange matchups as well as being a good way to buy time against go wide decks/tokens. I never actually saw the card though and am not certain I'm sold on it anyway.
GW Tron 2-0 (1-0)
Game one I was able to use countermagic recurred with Snapcaster beats and eventually an ultimated Liliana to win. Game two I was able to get a T3 Fulminator Mage into Surgical Extraction on a Tron piece which allowed me to beat down with a Goyf protected with countermagic before he could get out anything threatening. Technically he did get a Wurmcoil Engine and Worldbreaker out, but Cryptic taps are great.
Goblins 2-0 (2-0)
The first game was pretty tight and I was able to fade him drawing a Lightning Bolt on a couple draw steps to close him out. I was able to keep his board clear of creatures those turns though to make sure he didn't have any Goblin Grenade fodder. Game two I really ran over him. Just a good draw and he couldn't get any pressure on me.
Merfolk 2-0 (3-0)
The first game here I had quick early removal into Liliana who was able to help maintain his board while I added more pressure. His last turn he played Master of Waves which would have stalemated us if Liliana weren't there to remove it and end the game. Game two was a long grindy affair in which I was able to ultimate Liliana and use the tokens to aggressively trade off for key creatures. There was definitely a window where had he drawn and stuck an Islandwalk lord he would have taken the game, but thankfully he didn't.
Death Shadow Jund 1-2 (3-1)
This match was great. I played a lot of Death Shadow Zoo over the last few months and so playing my first match against the new version was eye opening. As I expected it a played a lot more like Jund. I had a phenomenal hand to fight the deck, but my opponent seeing this with his opening Inquisition just bided his time sculpting his hand while picking me apart as much as he could allowing me to get him down to 1. When he went for the Temur Battle Rage win and I Spell Snared it I was excited knowing they only run two now, but he had both of them in hand and so the second one gave him game 1. Game two was much of the same back and forth, but I had just enough removal to hold him off killing me before I could get lethal through his Goyf with a Creeping Tar Pit. Game three I had to mull to 5, with two lands, a Go for the Throat, a Spell Snare and a Surgical Extraction. He picked away the Snare and GftT on his first two turns before playing his Goyf. However I was able to use that time to get the lands and a Snapcaster which allowed me to kill and Extract the Goyf. I thought that was going to put me way ahead but the next turn he casted his own Liliana, the Last Hope and rode her to victory. It made me very sad as I had sided out all of my Cryptic Commands thinking they would be to slow which gave me no way to race the zombie tokens, and reduced the number of answers I had in the deck to handle a resolved planeswalker in the first place.
Bogles 2-0 (4-1)
Game one the opponent mulled to 6 and kept a creatureless hand. By the time he drew one on T4 I was able to Cryptic it while I beat down to a quick victory. Game two he had a much faster start, but I had nice fatties to buy me a little time by stifling his ability to attack while he developed his board. By the time he was ready to attack however I was able to use Cryptic, and Snap Cryptic to tap his team and race him.
I really like your list guys, played jund for 3 years. Just bought tonight a cryptic sultai deck.
No place for lili last hope in main deck? I can understand than lotv and counterspell are bad together.
But I'm currently trying your list Requiem with -1 CB and +1 lili last hope.
I absolutely think Liliana, the Last Hope is playable in a version of this deck. I could even see one in the main, one in the side. This is actually part of what I've been considering as one of the extra two delirium enablers, just trying to figure out what I'd want to trade online to pick a copy up. I do think that the meta is not the greatest for Lily right now as a removal spell (thought as Genini said there are definitely matchups she shines), but she should be decently easy to protect in this build as an alternate win condition. Also her down tick not only can recur a Snapcaster but help feed the graveyard for Snap/Goyf/Flayer. As it is I was strongly considering cutting the 3rd Grim Flayer for something and I think this will be it. It's possible with the addition of a Lily, and eventually an Engineered Explosives it might be possible to fit a 3rd Flayer back in at least Delirium wise, but we'll have to see.
@Retswerd
I haven't tested Bitterblossom yet, but I will say with the builds I'm playing the only deck that has been a consistent struggle for me was Grixis Delver. Bitterblossom can be excellent against them out of the side assuming you are able to focus on protecting your life total. I also think it can be good as a two of in a more tempo/delirium focused build that maxes on Grim Flayer/Tamrogoyf with Thought Scours and Collective Brutality as ways to get it in the GY.
Played against this list in my league. If you want to see how a game might play out with it I'll have the video up on my channel in a little bit. Granted I don't have the most experience with Kiki Chord, so I am playing very slowly and probably suboptimally...DON'T JUDGE ME...but please offer feedback on lines I miss
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
Can do. I think I might do Kiki Chord this week though as I've been toying around with Eldritch Evolution and Renegade Rallier...it's pretty fun. If I get extra time this weekend though...
@Velthov
I think the Cryptic list would benefit from -1 Hoots, +1 Tasigur. I only ran two Tasigur bc of Flayer. Without Flayer filtering I'd want 3rd Tasigur for mid/late game card adv. Also might consider cutting one Squall for a Go for the Throat as an extra answer to Smasher/prime time etc.
Midrange list. Pairing New Lily with counters is infinitely better than LotV. I think you may cut a visions for an extra TS...otherwise It looks fun. Would like some Scours in there somehow.
Both look fun though...and fun is most important at FNM I feel.
@raikenxy
Congrats! Spreading Seas is slick. It's a great card I hadn't thought of. Would pair excellently with Collective Brutality too. I also like the Lumbering Falls with the uptick in Fatal Push.
I wonder if these more controlling lists would be able to get away with playing Sylvan Advocate. Could be a two of in place of Flayer in my list going up to 3 Tasigur. Plays offense/defense early, probably better than Flayer most of the time early and pairs as a big threat with man lands late.
I like the manabase. The 4 Darkslick Shores incentivizes you to fetch Forest or Swamp early which is better for Blood Moon. I love Treetop Village in general, and since you're more aggressive in this build the cheaper activation is probably worth it. There is definitely some room to tune here, but generally speaking it looks good.
https://twitter.com/bazardebagda/status/831161925979471873/photo/1
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants 13
4 Fatal Push
3 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries 8
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands 22
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Treetop Village
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
2 Collective Brutality
3 Rain of Tears
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Painful Truths
3 Damnation
What smoresnbacon said. The deck is super toolboxy and Jace allows him to filter away cards that aren't good in the matchup for ones that ideally are, while simultaneously fueling Delirium. Jace also offers an alternate win condition in a deck full of creatures that can clog up the battlefield if necessary. The other thing is the deck is heavy on sorceries while pretty light on instants which are better with Snapcaster Mage.
Also I find this deck still can easily get stuck in the midrange trap of having the wrong cards in hand since the creatures tend to be proactive and the rest of the deck reactive. This is less of an issue than with the Grixis versions where almost all of their proactive cards (Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command, Snapcaster Mage) are also reactive, save the Tasigur's. I'm not done with the deck, but I am trying out some other Sutlai brews for a bit. I went 3-2 in a league with an untested Sultai Death's Shadow brew heavy on hand disruption and running the full playset of Stubborn Denial backed up with 4 Death's Shadow, 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Grim Flayer, and while I think that deck is a long way from ready it reminded me of how when I played BUG Delver that I always thought that this was how these colors want to be played. Cheap counterspells protecting an aggressive deck.
I like the list. I have an unhealthy love for Stubborn Denial. When I was playing my Delver variant I actually ran 4/3 Thought Cast over Serum Visions just to help get those Delve fatties down faster and to turn on Stubborn quicker. Just something to consider. Also I personally haven't found Damnation to be necessary, and these builds are a little more creature heavy so it's somewhat counter-intuitive to what we're doing as well. Have you found it to be that necessary? I have actually been running two Bitterblossom in the side now to help fight Grixis Delver, Control Variants, and it's also can be very good versus Affinity. Far better than Tarmogoyf is in the matchup.
This is very similar to the first list I built with Fatal Push actually. If you're going to dip into blue but want to stay base BGx this is the most effective way I've found. You're essentially a BG Delirium deck splashing blue for Thought Scour (instant speed Delirium enabler), Snapcaster Mages and some sideboard countermagic to make the blue worthwhile. Honestly if I didn't enjoy playing with Cryptic Command so much I would probably running something very similar to this.
I looked at your list, saw Jace and thought...yeah but it doesn't work as great with instants...and then looked at the rest of the list. Lists with Jace tend to be to slow/dependent on the graveyard and that made him really bad for a while, but he has game in a slightly slower meta for sure. I will say I don't tend to like Jace builds against Tron due to the lack of countermagic decks with Jace typically run, and I value beating Tron.
That said I spoke to a few people at GP Detroit (Eldrazi Winter) who were running Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in UW Control builds with Cryptic Command as I really like playing with Jace. I was curious about using Cryptic with Jace since he kind of requires a sorcery focused spell base and they each talked about how Cryptic is still an good card at Sorcery speed due to the bounce/draw/tap(when you're trying to close) modes.
I've definitely considered him as a sort of post board creature for grindy games. Maybe I should give it a try.
@Smoresnbacon - As I mentioned a little ways back I used to play BUG Delver a lot leading up to GP Detroit. I loved the deck, even 4-0'd a daily with it once but it got really bad when Eldrazi Oblivion Sower decks started showing up along with the Twin/Amulet bans forcing decks to get low and fast. Now that the format has started to slow down, and with the addition of Push it really could be decently positioned again. The absolute nuts in that deck is Stubborn Denial. It was absolutely bonkers with Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills, and Tasigur turning it on. I don't like the Murderous Cut or really the Shadow of Doubt in his list, but otherwise the list looks pretty solid.
Hi, I'm glad the recordings offered insight in any manner. I mostly do them for fun and I frequently bounce between decks (especially for recording) and so I unfortunately tend to have plenty of play mistakes I find especially when I re-watch. Even so it's nice to be able to show off different deck ideas that maybe don't have much coverage. Jund is by far my most played deck and yet I have almost no videos for that deck because there are so many videos of excellent players playing them. Anyway, it's always nice to hear when the videos are appreciated.
In regards to your questions I kind of short handed them below with my responses immediately after.
Sorry if I rambled on, but again I love the thought of a midrange control build of Sultai and want to help get there.
Out of curiosity what did you cut to make room for the 4th Thought Scour? Do you like the Burkhart manabase so far? I actually just updated my list cutting an Island for a 10th fetch after watching his MOCS videos. He makes an excellent point about how it's not really realistic to get all 3 Islands versus a Blood Moon deck anyway. Usually you're pulling most Cryptics and only need one to two Islands post board anyway, or you're making certain you can counter/remove the Blood Moon in response. I'm trying that out. However I'm running two Verdant Catacombs instead of blue fetches to keep my black and green fetch count at 6 since both of those colors are also important to me. I am considering making one of them an off color blue fetch instead but so far I like where it is at.
@Akalah
I've played a little bit with Tireless Tracker in straight BG builds and it is really good at grinding. It really does have the ability to a great card advantage engine in a deck like this. I really think adding one that you might try and use in the midgame when you're starting to run lower on cards in hand sounds excellent. I think it's possible I MIGHT be able to cut one removal spell from my current list. Definitely a great reminder and something I'm stewing on.
@Smoresnbacon
@Godrik1374
Glad you like the build. For anyone who is interested or into this sort of thing I recorded my playbacks from a couple of my leagues and uploaded them to my youtube channel. I was also going to record my 2-3(7-7) league but ran out of time. I may do that this weekend if I have time or I may just record a new league. I'm not a flawless player by any means, so expect some mistakes, and feel free to let me know if you find any as I'm always looking to improve.
TGCRequiem Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
Sultai Control Playlist - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtMOxBZ_cEw9lxr5aZCr_icyqJ7gyWikS
@Argomok
I agree the land count is low. I feel like with 22 lands, I need the 4 Serum Visions and 3 Thought Scour to make sure my mana is smooth, however I'm also heavily relying on hitting 4 mana consistently around T4-T6. You're a little lower curve and aren't as dependent on Cryptic so you might get away with 21, but I do have some concerns about your manabase in general. I'm assuming you don't have access to Misty Rainforest or Verdant Catacombs (hopefully they get reprinted soon). I think you actually did a good job of hitting reasonable numbers despite, but instead of a Steam Vents I almost wonder if you might be better to just run a single Darkslick Shores or Drowned Catacomb in its place. I also think you could probably replace a Breeding Pool with Botanical Sanctum or a Hinterland Harbor. Breeding Pool seems like the shock you'll have the most trouble accessing directly and I don't think you need two of each shock. I was also thinking you might find a little more flexibility by making one of your Bloodstained Mire's an offcolor blue fetch like Flooded Strand.
I don't know if you all can tell but Sultai is my favorite tri color combination ever and so I'm super excited to finally have a reasonable deck in those colors I can play in Modern. Bless you Fatal Push! I did have a pretty decent run with BUG Delver back in mid to late 2015 before Eldrazi and then hyper aggressive modern kind of killed that off. Now that the meta is slowing down slightly though it even might be fun to dust that off again though it probably still can't handle Eldrazi. Anyway it is a good time to Sultai!
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Artifacts 2
2 Mishra's Bauble
Instants 12
4 Fatal Push
3 Mana Leak
1 Countersquall
2 Go for the Throat
2 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries 7
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands 23
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Blooming Marsh
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Feed the Clan
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Damnation
There is some merit, but I think the BUG Midrange builds, more so than any other BGx build, suffers the most from a contradiction in desire to be proactive versus reactive. Jund's red reactive spells can help proactively close the game. White is using powerful hate cards to proactively shut down opponents. The hand disruption is generally proactively trying to clear the way for your creatures or delay your opponent until you can. Countermagic by nature has to be reactive and so it creates this tension in BUG more so than in other decks. It might be different if there was a "true" counterspell at two cmc that could be held up as a catch all counter (in conjunction with something like Abrupt Decay), but Mana Leak is the best you have, and unfortunately the card is terrible late game and BUG is the most likely to run into the long game. This leads to running more conditional counters like Spell Snare, Countersquall, Stubborn Denial etc since they are at least "hard" counters.
This again just leads to an issue where instead of having either Abrupt Decay or Counterspell you have Abrupt Decay or conditional countermagic. This leads to a lot more instances where your hand will just NOT line up with what your opponent is doing. This is why I think the midrange builds of BUG need to just naturally be more reactive. That said I still think there is some merit because countermagic allows BUG to do one thing the other BGx matchups can't do and that is have game in nearly EVERY matchup. So while with that style of build you may lose a lot more due to awkward draws you're also going to have days where everything lines up, Inquisition away their removal, slam a Tarmogoyf, hold up countermagic/removal that is appropriate in the matchup and you just can't lose.
You are going to lose every game to Tron that they don't stumble hard with that build. It already takes them stumbling to beat Tron 25% of the time with Jund when you have Goyf in your deck, which you don't. Thought Scour, Mishra's Bauble and Liliana of the Veil will help you enable Delirium but it is still going to be to slow to fight Tron with any consistency in the build you have.
The question is how important is fighting Tron to you? If it's just an occasional matchup in your meta don't worry about it and expect to lose. If you get Goyfs you can still expect to lose but you may get a few more wins. You can also try Fulminator Mage plus Surgical Extraction in the side, but their good draws still often beat the draws you are lucky enough to draw it. This is why so many Jund decks just don't bother with siding for the matchup. Why spend 5 cards in your side to maybe get an extra 5% in the matchup at the cost of so many other matchups getting REAL sideboard help. Your deck is 95% a Jund build. If you have a small play group and you play against Tron a LOT, and care enough to fight them, then you're going to need to rethink your approach.
The way to beat Tron with BUG is with tempo and counter magic. Stubborn Denial, Negate, Countersquall, Snapcaster Mage paired with Tarmogoyf, fast Tasigur's, Grim Flayer or Delver of Secrets...maybe even Hooting Mandrills (if you're really supporting Stubborn Denial). Stick a threat and counter the spells that matter. I also think the Cryptic Command versions that are slightly less low to the ground, similar to what I'm currently running, are up to the fight as you can counter enough spells to get most of the way there with a Snapcaster or two.
I absolutely think Liliana, the Last Hope is playable in a version of this deck. I could even see one in the main, one in the side. This is actually part of what I've been considering as one of the extra two delirium enablers, just trying to figure out what I'd want to trade online to pick a copy up. I do think that the meta is not the greatest for Lily right now as a removal spell (thought as Genini said there are definitely matchups she shines), but she should be decently easy to protect in this build as an alternate win condition. Also her down tick not only can recur a Snapcaster but help feed the graveyard for Snap/Goyf/Flayer. As it is I was strongly considering cutting the 3rd Grim Flayer for something and I think this will be it. It's possible with the addition of a Lily, and eventually an Engineered Explosives it might be possible to fit a 3rd Flayer back in at least Delirium wise, but we'll have to see.
@Retswerd
I haven't tested Bitterblossom yet, but I will say with the builds I'm playing the only deck that has been a consistent struggle for me was Grixis Delver. Bitterblossom can be excellent against them out of the side assuming you are able to focus on protecting your life total. I also think it can be good as a two of in a more tempo/delirium focused build that maxes on Grim Flayer/Tamrogoyf with Thought Scours and Collective Brutality as ways to get it in the GY.