Are you basically running the same list still asdfpanda?
I went up to 4 Gideon's personally. He can actually be decent against control as he gets to -6 exile a permanent pretty quickly. It keeps them from playing Teferi if they can't answer Gideon. 4 copies isn't as bad as I thought. Just let your opponent attack into the first one while you're lifelinking another creature with him and you can race pretty well. They finally kill Gideon, you bust out the second, and third if needed. Again, he just becomes an alternate removal spell when you play him on turn 3 and can protect him.
Been brewing around all sorts of different stuff, but I think 4 Gideons is about right.
It seems to me that the deck isn't quite aggro enough against control. I can beat mono-red and mono-white usually (unless their Benalish Marshal comes down early.) Mono blue can be overcome too so long as they don't get that curious obsession/evasive creature combo. out too early.
Where I struggle is with midrange and control, and anything a bunch of green creatures.
That's where I'm at with the deck. I think Prison Realm is something worth considering. I think the deck needs more than the 4 Conclave Tribunal I've been running. I feel it needs at least 5 removal spells that hit walkers and creatures, maybe 6 or 7. I keep losing to control by not having an answer to Teferi or other walkers that they play.
I'm still at 3 Gideon but only because I don't have the wildcard for a 4th on MTGA lol. I don't see 4 Gideon as wrong. I agree with the midrange and control issue, but there's a list by Mazuku94 that went 5-0 on MTG Goldfish that may be of interest:
It seems that it's extremely low to the ground on the curve, forgoing stuff like Seraph of Scales, and doesn't include Gideon. It instead focuses on cheap and fast card advantage. The Revival//Revenge is an interesting choice. I'm bringing this up because it seems that you can go with more exile effects to deal with the control matchup, or just decrease the curve for more tempo to race against control. However, while being an aristocrat deck, it's a different style, yours seems more midrangey. Let us know how thePrison Realm testing goes. I personally am still running Mortify.
On another note I know you mentionedVenerated Loxodon as a good option, and I think it's worth consideration against specifically Cry of the Carnarium. That card just wrecks us.
I wanted to share what I've been using in Arena that has been working fairly well for me. My goal is to keep Cruel Celebrants in play as much as possible and have the ability to reanimate them with the Sorin and Ajani as well as the black land that will put them in your hand. Costly Plunder and Militia Bugler work as a fantastic card advantage engines to keep things moving and to make sure you always get your celebrant. I'll admit I haven't yet played the Finale of Eternity yet, but I am interested to see if it will be a good late game card or not. A crappy Rally the Ancestors, but it might work. I also really want to try Revival/Revenge as a reanimator, but not sure how many. Going to craft them next.
I hadn't considered Militia Bugler as an option, good idea. If you're going with the Sorin/Ajani plan I would include more of those. I personally don't think Finale of Eternity is worth it mainboard, getting up to say 6 mana is pretty difficult, and it's bad game 1 vs control. However, I think it is a fantastic sideboard option to deal with Sultai/Golgari Midrange style decks, hitting Wildgrowth Walkers, Hydroid Krasis and other stuff easily. I haven't tested it myself.
I'm going to try Sorin first, then Revival//Revenge as well, although it may take a while.
I run a very similar list on arena, and those matches where you have multiple cruel celebrants, but no way to sac your dudes for the win? Bontu has got you covered. It’s a 3 of in my deck, and I don’t feel like I’m losing consistency with it. Bontu May be the worst of the god cycle, but in this deck, it’s the best.
I think Bontu can work as a 1 of. Though, I'm liking Plaguecrafter too, even if it doesn't slam onto the battlefield like Bontu.
I'm not sure the knights list is all that great. I do like the idea of Benalish Marshal if we drop the number of black cards so we can run fewer swamps and throw in a guildgate or 2. I'll investigate it at some point.
Oh it's fine with the multiple posts, if it helps with brainstorming. You're right about Unclaimed Territory helping out with Benalish Marshall. As for cards like Costly Plunder and Final Payment, I think they fit in a shell with Dreadhorde Invasion and/orLegion's Landing.The only problem I see is that they aren't good enough as standalone cards.
I'm actually starting to think Knights tribal is a thing. I'm doing really well with this list. Gideon is great. Note that he can convoke the turn he comes out. I'm also eyeing Oath of Kaya a bit more heavily if I'm running this many knights and also a walker. Conclave TribunalVenerated Loxodon are great in the deck. NOTE THAT MIDNIGHT REAPER IS A KNIGHT!!!!
A knight shell is definitely possible, I don't think it would be necessarily better or worse, just a different style. Triple White mana for Benalish Marshal is tough though.
I think pitiless pontiff doesn't do much in this deck. You have enough enablers that it isn't needed.
I can see that perspective, but it's also such an effective blocker, being able to sacrifice a chump before damage is dealt is really nice. It's saved me from many a Goblin Chainwhirler, large Wildgrowth Walker, etc. I'll try substituting in other cards though.
Anyway, I haven't made too many modifications, I just upped the Gideon count to 3 and took out a History of Benalia. Still working on it.
Updated list, the sideboard should be a bit better, but will change as the meta develops. I'm really torn on leaving out Hunted Witness, it's decidedly average but it also feels bad not having a resilient turn one blocker. Still haven't tested out different amounts of Gideon, or including Legion's Landing; don't have the wildcards on MTGA yet. Also considering Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord and Teysa Karlov as one-ofs. Orzhov Enforcer is better than Tithe Taker in some matchups.
Gideon is very good, giving Pitiless Pontiff vigilance applies a lot of pressure, and dodges board wipes. Golgari/Sultai Midrange lists are probably the toughest matchup, if Priest of Forgotten Gods isn't set up early enough, they just go wider than we can, and heal a bunch with Wildgrowth Walker. Find//Finality and Cry of the Carnarium also are tough to deal with, can't dodge them with Pitiless Pontiff.
Pretty solid starting point, the one thing that jumps out at me is that your curve stops at 3 and 4 and you are running 23 lands but then you have 3 of the 6-drop Lili's. I would just cut her for 3 gideons or dreadhorde invasions. From my testing, both gideon and dreadhorde invasion are really good, I would cut hunted witness to fit both of them in personally.
Yeah I agree that Liliana is too slow after playing some more. Good suggestions with the Dreadhorde invasion and Gideon, I'll try them out. Do you think that Legion's Landing has a place here?
It does pretty well against RDW. I could see dropping a few of the Pitiless Pontiffs for more lands ,different creatures, or another History. Sideboard is a work in progress, it's too superfriends heavy, and I'd like to play Basilica Bell-Haunt.
I'm still at 3 Gideon but only because I don't have the wildcard for a 4th on MTGA lol. I don't see 4 Gideon as wrong. I agree with the midrange and control issue, but there's a list by Mazuku94 that went 5-0 on MTG Goldfish that may be of interest:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/standard-wb-83245#paper
4 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
//30 Creature
4 Cruel Celebrant
4 Gutterbones
4 Hunted Witness
4 Midnight Reaper
2 Orzhov Enforcer
4 Plaguecrafter
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
4 Tithe Taker
4 Revival // Revenge
//22 Land
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
7 Plains
7 Swamp
It seems that it's extremely low to the ground on the curve, forgoing stuff like Seraph of Scales, and doesn't include Gideon. It instead focuses on cheap and fast card advantage. The Revival//Revenge is an interesting choice. I'm bringing this up because it seems that you can go with more exile effects to deal with the control matchup, or just decrease the curve for more tempo to race against control. However, while being an aristocrat deck, it's a different style, yours seems more midrangey. Let us know how thePrison Realm testing goes. I personally am still running Mortify.
On another note I know you mentionedVenerated Loxodon as a good option, and I think it's worth consideration against specifically Cry of the Carnarium. That card just wrecks us.
I hadn't considered Militia Bugler as an option, good idea. If you're going with the Sorin/Ajani plan I would include more of those. I personally don't think Finale of Eternity is worth it mainboard, getting up to say 6 mana is pretty difficult, and it's bad game 1 vs control. However, I think it is a fantastic sideboard option to deal with Sultai/Golgari Midrange style decks, hitting Wildgrowth Walkers, Hydroid Krasis and other stuff easily. I haven't tested it myself.
I'm going to try Sorin first, then Revival//Revenge as well, although it may take a while.
I think Bontu can work as a 1 of. Though, I'm liking Plaguecrafter too, even if it doesn't slam onto the battlefield like Bontu.
Oh it's fine with the multiple posts, if it helps with brainstorming. You're right about Unclaimed Territory helping out with Benalish Marshall. As for cards like Costly Plunder and Final Payment, I think they fit in a shell with Dreadhorde Invasion and/orLegion's Landing.The only problem I see is that they aren't good enough as standalone cards.
Thanks for all the suggestions, I agree that Priest of Forgotten Gods is slow, it doesn't have an immediate impact on the battlefield. I'll try substituting Midnight Reaper and Plaguecrafter. I'll consider Conclave Tribunal as well, it is a lot more flexible than Mortify.
A knight shell is definitely possible, I don't think it would be necessarily better or worse, just a different style. Triple White mana for Benalish Marshal is tough though.
I can see that perspective, but it's also such an effective blocker, being able to sacrifice a chump before damage is dealt is really nice. It's saved me from many a Goblin Chainwhirler, large Wildgrowth Walker, etc. I'll try substituting in other cards though.
Anyway, I haven't made too many modifications, I just upped the Gideon count to 3 and took out a History of Benalia. Still working on it.
4 Hunted Witness
4 Gutterbones
4 Cruel Celebrant
4 Tithe Taker
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
3 Pitiless Pontiff
3 Seraph of the Scales
3 Dreadhorde Invasion
3 History of Benalia
//3 Instant
3 Mortify
//2 Planeswalker
2 Gideon Blackblade
//23 Land
8 Plains
7 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Duress
2 The Elderspell
2 Despark
2 Teyo, the Shieldmage
1 Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants
2 Vraska's Contempt
2 Basilica Bell-Haunt
Updated list, the sideboard should be a bit better, but will change as the meta develops. I'm really torn on leaving out Hunted Witness, it's decidedly average but it also feels bad not having a resilient turn one blocker. Still haven't tested out different amounts of Gideon, or including Legion's Landing; don't have the wildcards on MTGA yet. Also considering Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord and Teysa Karlov as one-ofs. Orzhov Enforcer is better than Tithe Taker in some matchups.
Gideon is very good, giving Pitiless Pontiff vigilance applies a lot of pressure, and dodges board wipes. Golgari/Sultai Midrange lists are probably the toughest matchup, if Priest of Forgotten Gods isn't set up early enough, they just go wider than we can, and heal a bunch with Wildgrowth Walker. Find//Finality and Cry of the Carnarium also are tough to deal with, can't dodge them with Pitiless Pontiff.
Yeah I agree that Liliana is too slow after playing some more. Good suggestions with the Dreadhorde invasion and Gideon, I'll try them out. Do you think that Legion's Landing has a place here?
4 Hunted Witness
4 Gutterbones
4 Cruel Celebrant
4 Tithe Taker
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
4 Pitiless Pontiff
4 Seraph of the Scales
3 History of Benalia
//3 Instant
3 Mortify
//3 Planeswalker
3 Liliana, Dreadhorde General
//23 Land
8 Plains
7 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Duress
2 The Elderspell
2 Despark
2 Gideon Blackblade
2 Teyo, the Shieldmage
1 Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants
2 Oath of Kaya
It does pretty well against RDW. I could see dropping a few of the Pitiless Pontiffs for more lands ,different creatures, or another History. Sideboard is a work in progress, it's too superfriends heavy, and I'd like to play Basilica Bell-Haunt.