@Soundreason: I dig it. You know your chops, and I've not seen such a detailed first post write-up since Swiftcreek. Phylactery Lich, yeah buoy. I've always wondered why this hulk hasn't smashed its way onto the scene. Agree that stubborn denial is a wrecking ball, and I wonder if your deck might benefit by one more large creature: Tasigur - although the speed at which you fill your GY is questionable. My overall concern is the addition of Darksteel Axe/Darksteel Relic along with Ensoul Artifact because they have very little worth on their own. To your point, this is part of your overall Shouta-themed whole hog approach. Similarly, you have correctly identified the (5) foil cards to fear, particularly Liliana and Path.
I am concerned about your artifact count: 13. This doesn't come close to justifying Mox Opal, nevermind 2 of them. And, it's overall too little to reliably run a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas on the draw function by about 5 cards. Again, I get that you are doing a very, very focused attack deck theme, so digging isn't your thing. I guess you can kind of look at this deck as a version of artifact attack -- Affinity. Ultimately, the question to ask is, "is this a better deck than affinity?" I honestly don't know. Their primary trick is Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager for explosive attack potential, while you're going with a stout 5/5 attack. Your advantage is the sideboard and more adaptable suite of spells.
Thanks for the feedback, Raystack. I've definitely thought about the things you brought up as concerns, so here's how I got to the current version of the list:
Artifact Count
Part of the issue here is tied to the linearity of the deck - because the archetype requires multiple two-card synergies to function, the deck has lots of 'mandatory' card slots (threats require artifacts to enable them and vice-versa), keeping room for utility cards low. However, some of those utility cards are also 'mandatory' in the sense that they are required in order to interact with what others are doing in the meta-game (spot removal, hand disruption, and counters). Incidentally, this also makes sideboarding very challenging, as you only have a few slots that can be adjusted for any given match up.
Because of how aggressively this list plays, I'd say 4 out of 5 times I play Tezz I'm using his -1 to make another 5/5 and keep the stream of threats flowing. Unlike the more controlling version of the deck where he is a good source of card advantage and can find specific pieces to lock or hate your opponent, in this deck Tezz is here as a resilient source of threats who happens to be able to dig in a pinch on an even board.
This list is in flux, and in the version of the main-deck immediately prior to this one had +2 Spellskite, -2 Damnation, with Damnation having been moved to the board. This helped with an artifact count of 15 (that is my target number for the deck, I think you can't go higher without sacrificing core elements), but ultimately I decided that Damnation was able to get me more value in the match ups I was expecting.
Also, the artifact count is more like 17 than 13. I know this is kind of cheating, but I count the Blinkmoths because there are times when I can activate them to make a Mox live, which is a little like filtering a mana. Not ideal, but it works.
However, you are right to note that it is sometimes difficult to meet the metalcraft requirement for Mox Opal, which leads you to consider the following when looking at a hand: if you kept a Mox Opal but can't find the third artifact to enable metalcraft, do you run Mox Opal onto the table? This might seem like giving away information, but it is free to get it on board now, and depending on the board state it could represent a 'hasty' 5/5 threat on any subsequent turn off of an Ensoul or Tezzeret either in hand or off the top of the deck. Seeing the in hand situations are easy, but it's important to play to the top-deck, too.
Why not Affinity?
A few reasons. The main thing here is just that Affinity isn't my play style because it doesn't involve enough active disruption and interaction. Affinity doesn't interact so much as go wide and race. This deck is built more to go deep and interact, if that makes sense.
I also think this deck offers unique angles of attack that trump what Affinity can do, including being able to play a sweeper onto your own creature filled board and then attack anyway.
Finally, playing this version of an aggressive artifact deck strands many more 'dead' cards with your opponents than playing Affinity would. Their Bolts and Electrolyzes can't remove your threats (unless you're sloppy with man-land activations). Any of their 'destroy' effects are dead, and many of their stronger sideboard cards for the matchup (Ancient Grudge, Shatter Storm, Creeping Corrosion, Stony Silence, Pyroclasm, Drown in Sorrow, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Curse of Death's Hold, etc.) are all less good and/or dead in the match up.
By the way, since you took time to reply, any specific thoughts on IoK vs. Thoughtseize? Right now that's the main thing I'm going over in my mind as for which I'd rather be using game 1, or if I should run a split.
Edit: Didn't see Radouf's reply until after I'd written my first response -
I thought about Mana Leak a little bit, and I think I've found myself being more tempted by its little brother, Spell Pierce. There isn't really any single creature I can think of that I'm afraid of if it resolves, so being able to have a more mana efficient soft counter means it can allow me to keep protection available and curve into a threat a turn earlier than Leak would. I'm thinking about some number of Spell Pierce in the board, and have also considered Dispel for similar reasons. Perhaps a 1 and 1 split in the board would be good. I also like how efficient Spell Snare is, but I'm not sure there are enough 2 mana cards I actually care about. I tend to be more worried about 1, 3, and 4.
Vendilion Clique is a card I had thought about in very early list versions, but haven't thought much about since. I'm pretty sure I could find room for one or two in the sideboard, since that part is far from nailed down now anyway. I think it would be especially good against opposing Blood Moon decks, and probably also helps with Tron.
Serum Visions I did think about this, but I keep coming back to needing my cards to do something themselves, as opposed to finding me cards that do something. Thirst for Knowledge meets this requirement because it is a source of real card advantage, not just selection. That said, in some ways this deck is a combo deck, so having the ability to dig is somewhat appealing, I just don't think the benefits outweigh the risks of cutting the cards in the slots it would need to occupy.
You're right that Shackles and Lich don't play nicely together, which is why I think a rebuild would be in order if I tried to go that route. More fetchlands, shocklands, still Urborgs... I just don't think it can do what this deck does anymore at that point.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang out of the SB sounds pretty appealing, actually. I like the argument that he's good once they board out their dead removal, although I do think that by virtue of his 5 toughness he still already didn't die to a lot of those cards anyway. Still, having an additional source of cards if a game goes long could be beneficial.
If I try to up my artifact count, I think I start by cutting a land back down to 22 and finding a cheap bauble or one mana artifact to fill the slot, like another Darksteel Relic.
I'm about to post a list I've been hacking away at for the past two months or so. This list is built on a U/B Tezzeret Control shell, but underwent some significant changes on the way such that the deck looks much different now, and is arguably no longer a control deck. There are reasons I made these changes, and I'll get into those below, but to summarize the main two:
1./ U/B Tezz Control felt too slow sometimes. I wanted to give a faster clock and way to close out the game.
2./ The list I (and most on this forum, from what I can tell) built on was Shota Yasooka's 2014 Modern Pro Tour list, which did not have access to certain appealing cards that have since been released.
So with those two points made, let me get the list up, and then talk specifically about some of the card choices, and what has and has not performed well for me in testing.
Alright, so hopefully you don't have to look at the list for too long to figure out what's going on here. An army of indestructible 5/5 creatures has proven, time and again, to be something my opponents aren't prepared to kill. That said, here are some comments on specific card choices and things to watch out for:
Top 5 Cards to Avoid (this is game one, obviously people will have spiteful stuff post board):
1./ Path to Exile & Dismember - While most removal is dead against our threats, these are obviously live. The way to play around them is to use IoK to dig into their hand and clear the way, and then have Stubborn Denial around to protect your resolved threats. I'd also like to quickly add at this point that Stubborn Denial is perhaps both the most important card and the biggest revelation in the deck. Patrick Chapin's pro tour efforts might not have shown it, but Stubborn Denial was a hidden gem in his list, and it has consistently over-performed for me in this deck. Meeting the ferocious condition is very easy, since all of your non man-land threats meet the criteria, and even being able to just Force Spike people can be great, especially if used on turn one on the play to counter your opponent on the draw from hitting you with targeted discard.
2./ Liliana of the Veil - I haven't played against Lilly much with this deck yet, but she also can answer our big threats. Top ways to beat her are: make them discard her early, counter her before she comes down, Damnation a board with an indestructible threat on your side to swing through and clean up, or use your man lands to pressure her and potentially speed that effort up with Darksteel Axe. The Axe is mostly there as an Ensoul target, Tezz target, or to be a good Phylactery counter holder, but it is also relevant surprisingly often as a piece of equipment. Equipping the man lands is great, and sometimes your creatures need the extra 2 power to win a ground fight through a Wurmcoil Engine or something.
3./ Blood Moon - The worst. Not gonna lie, if they stick this, unless you're pretty far ahead on board, you're not likely to win. Our 6 mana rocks do give us some chance of not being locked out, but it's definitely uphill. The deck only plays two basics, and doesn't run any fetches. That decision is motivated by a desire to take less damage from our mana base, and since we don't take any and our threats are big and cheap, we actually have a really good shot at racing burn in game one. The two basics in the deck are actually a concession to how good Path is against us as a removal spell, and helps mitigate the downside.
4./ Cryptic Command - Because of the way the threats in the deck come together, Cryptic's bounce mode can often set up some gross 2 or 3 for 1 scenarios where they bounce whatever artifact you have Ensouled, or bounce whatever artifact is holding your Phylactery Counter. IoK also can't get it, but at least sees it coming. All I can offer here is that Stubborn Denial is amazing against this card, and you should hope to draw a copy before you get Cryptic'd. The one thing I'll say about Cryptic Command is that the times at which it tends to be cast are predictable, so even if you don't know they have it, if you think they do you can often set up situations where you can use Stubborn Denial's Force Spike mode to deal with it, since people seem to have no problem tapping out on turn 4 if they don't know about your denials yet.
5./ Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - So I never even thought about this card until I played against it, but Ugin is gross because while almost every other sweeper in the game is irrelevant against our indestructible legion, Ugin can easily eat all of your Ensouls, Liches, and Tezzerets. More frustratingly, though, you often can't take a line that plays around both Karn AND Ugin. Karn makes you want to play redundant threats in case he comes down to exile the first, and Ugin makes you want to sandbag threats because when he comes down he'll eat everything. Only your man-lands and Tezz'd threats are safe. Plan accordingly.
That's where the deck is now. Here are some changes I've currently got in mind for the main deck:
+2 Darksteel Relic / -2 Darksteel Axe
I was pretty averse to Relic when I was first researching the list because it seems extremely 'do nothing' without the synergizing components. At least Axe is relevant in cases where equipping it is good. However, the cards making me rethink my assessment are Mox Opal, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Stubborn Denial. By getting out a Relic on turn one, for free, instead of having to decide whether to play the Axe or cast/leave up disruption, I'm more likely to have hands that let me curve a turn one disruption spell into turn 2 Ensoul, swing. I also like this option because getting our indestructible targets onto zero on our curve instead of one makes Chalice of the Void more viable as a sideboard card, which is something I've been playing with the idea of for decks like Burn, Affinity, Storm, and Zoo.
It occurs to me that this also leads to the nut draw of: Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, Darksteel Relic, and Ensoul Artifact. This deck already has explosive draws, but by adding this I get the terrifying T1: "Citadel, Opal, Relic, Ensoul Relic, go."
Now imagine the remaining 3 cards in your hand are land, Stubborn Denial, Thirst for Knowledge. I don't see how that hand loses.
+4 Ghost Quarter, +1 or 2 Crucible of Worlds / -4 Blinkmoth Nexus, -1 or 2 Artifacts (not sure which)
Blinkmoth is great, sometimes it's my MVP. However, I really wish I had a good way to not get rolled over by Tron. If I were to make this change, I'd also totally shake up the mana base to enable myself to recur fetches for whatever value that entailed. I'd probably also find room for Vedalken Shackles somewhere at the same time, although I think that would lead down the road to a much different deck. I don't know, but it seems good. Maybe I can get away with using Fulminator Mage for those purposes instead?
-2 to 4 Inquisition of Kozilek / +2 to 4 Thoughtseize
The question is simple but I don't know the answer: in the current meta, is being able to hit Cryptic, Twin, Rhino, Become Immense, and Karn/Ugin (mostly) more important than not taking 2 (or more) damage against decks like Scapeshift, Burn, Zoo, Affinity, or other highly aggressive archetypes?
Bonus Round!
Find room for the singleton Rapid Hybridization in this deck, because it is both a sweet removal spell nobody expects, and you can also get awesome value on defense by targeting your own indestructible threats for 1 mana 3/3s at instant speed!
Anyhow, that's all I've got to say on the deck for the time being. I'd look forward to whatever input you folks have on cards I may not have considered or properly analyzed.
Yeah Artisan of Kozilek isn't really a great reanimation target, since it's ability only triggers if you cast it, not if you cheat it into play.
Question for Reanimator Players at large:
What do we think about delve spells, and how many should be in the 75? Which and where?
I was starting to play with 2x Dig Through Time, but I found that by the time I was ready to dig, I was also usually always ready to just reanimate some fatty, usually Griselbrand. With Griselbrand out, Dig becomes almost useless (other than as "blue spell" for FoW), and it's just really unimpressive. I still really like that it can let you reload exactly what you need for a combo in the face of too much disruption, but I feel like I'm better off just trying to 'go off' consistently on my first few tries than I am trying to play a sub-optimal card that helps me reload when I fail to force my things through.
For the time being, I've cut down to just one Dig in the main, since I still like the utility. Can anyone else with some more experience playtesting Delve spells weigh in on this? I'd love to know what other players thing.
Yeah I really enjoy Stasis decks as well. I used to run a mono-U Chronatog build.
SCG recently featured a Bant Stasis list that looked pretty cool. It used mana creatures, Quirion Ranger, and Scryb Ranger with Exploration and Horn of Greed as the engine. I'm in the process of building it (or some iteration thereof) because Stasis is the best!
The only think I dislike about Dark Ritual is that it only buys you a one time advantage, and actually makes their bad plays good. What I mean by that is that normally Force of Will is one of their worst cards against us, but with Dark Ritual, they can wait to see what we try to cast off of the Ritual and Force that. Usually them casting Force is like us getting a free Hymn to Tourach, so I don't mind it at all. But if our Turn one is "Ritual, Lili" and they Force the Lili, then that ended up being a really *****ty play.
Personally, I took the Dark Rituals out of my build and am running a small number of Mox Diamonds instead (currently 2, might go up to 3). I don't really need them for the colour fixing, but it's nice to have a source of mana acceleration that a) sticks around even if whatever it was accelerating gets countered, and b) doesn't count towards Pox counts for mana sources, further breaking Pox symetry in our favour. Mox Diamond is also a good discard outlet for things like Crucible of Worlds in the main, so if I discard lands I know I'll get a shot to recur them in the long run.
I'd be interested in hearing everyone else's thoughts re: Dark Ritual vs. Mox Diamond as acceleration sources.
I think that Necroplasm is a good card, but it has two really big downsides stapled to it, as compared to Nether Spirit.
First, and most importantly, is that Nether Spirit costs ZERO mana 9 times out of 10. Given that Pox has a tendency to destroy our own lands with our spells, having a threat that comes back every turn, for free, is a pretty big deal.
The second issue is that, in order to dredge the Necroplasm, you also have to not draw a card. This is also a big issue, because sometimes you need a blocker and to draw cards that keep advancing your board state.
Take two different game states: one where you have 3 lands and a Necroplasm, and your opponent has 3 lands and a 5/6 Tarmogoyf. Let's say the Tarmogoyf represents lethal, and you have to block it. This means that for every turn for the rest of the game, you need to dredge your Necroplasm, and then spend all 3 of your mana just to cast it. You will never win this game without taking a chance on not dredging, and instead hoping to hit a relevant card off the top of your deck. At best Necroplasm will slowly lose the game for you, and in a sense you will be "Necroplasm locked."
Take the same scenario, but replace the creature with Nether Spirit. Now, you've got a blocker, for free, every turn, and are free to draw off the top of your deck while you look for a permanent answer to the Tarmogoyf. You can wall that 'Goyf all day, and still be able to draw through your deck looking for relevant spells. Necroplasm just doesn't give you that option.
Ultimately, Necroplasm is a good creature and idea, but I think the marginal utility is far too low compared to what Nether Spirit brings to the table.
Edit: The only place I would see Necroplasm doing good work is against a matchup that is already good for this deck. Against U/R Delver, you would kill their Elemental tokens and Insectile Aberrations on zero (turn 1), their un-flipped Delvers and Swiftspears on one (turn 2), and their Young Pyromancers on 2 (turn 3). Even then, I'd rather just board in Engineered Plague on Humans and watch them weep. Ditto for the Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk matchups.
We run so many black sources + Urborg (and Dark Rituals and Moxes) that getting the BBBB casting cost portion shouldn't be too hard. Then we can delve the whole yard and produce an army out of nowhere. Seems legit to me? Possibly as an alternative to Tombstalker?
Yeah I took my Pox deck to a Legacy tournament on Friday night and TC was a total beating. It lets decks grind with us because every card they use is just fueling an eventual Ancestral Recall to refill their grip, which is super frustrating.
I had an opponent cast TC THREE TIMES against me in one match. All max delve, as in he delved 21 cards that game. I was just on Gatherer looking for the most spiteful tech I could come up with to beat that card, because I feel like I was losing games to Treasure Cruise when I had the rest of their deck under control.
I'm just going to list a bunch of ideas, either possibly as main deck or sideboard tech, but with Delve becoming a big time mechanic in Legacy, I think we can't get away with not attacking people's Graveyards as a resource, because it WILL eventually fuel their grip.
Also, the notion of just having either main deck Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, or Nihil Spellbomb also occurred to me. I don't mind letting them get one TC off if it means I can stop them from doing it again in a game, but when they can do it multiple times in a game it really gets out of hand.
Also, what do you all think of the possibilities Khans opened up for Delve in Pox? Specifically, these cards stand out as playable:
Murderous Cut
Somewhat an upgrade over Spinning Darkness? Upsides include ability to kill black creatures, and ability to kill things with toughness > 3 (mostly 'Goyf, maybe opposing Tombstalker).
Necropolis Fiend
Any chance this is better or en par with Tombstalker? Being able to keep shooting things could be relevant.
In playing the deck, it always feels most powerful when you have an early Temur Ascendancy ensuring your stream of cards never runs out. I wanted to play a more control oriented late game, but I've realized that is just isn't as powerful as getting a consistently early Temur Ascendancy and then triggering it as many times as possible. This caused a complete re-build with a hard shift in focus towards permanents to maximize the chance of sticking something worthwhile with Genesis Hydra.
Why Hydra and Ascendancy are BFFs:
Let's think of the two different scenarios - one where you start with Temur Ascendancy in play before casting your Genesis Hydra, and one where you don't.
A thing to note is that you always want to try to Hydra for an X value of at least 4 to ensure your Hydra will trigger Ascendancy (an exception is if you know a Knuckleblade is in your top 3 cards, in which case it is acceptable to Hydra for 3 to flip it and still trigger a card draw). So say you cast Hydra, X = 4 with an Ascendancy on board, and flip a Savage Knuckleblade. The Genesis ability will resolve before it enters the battlefield itself, so you'll flip 4, grab the Knuckleblade, and then shuffle your library. Then the Knuckleblade enters the battlefield, triggers Ascendancy, and draws you a card. Then, once its "When you cast" trigger has been resolved, the Hydra enters the battlefield as a 4/4, triggers Ascendancy, and draws you another card. Both creatures have haste from Ascendancy, and you are at option to attack.
When you start without an Ascendancy in play, you still want to cast for at least X = 4, because you want to find an Ascendancy with the Hydra trigger, put it into play, and then have the Hydra enter the battlefield onto it, trigger it, draw you a card and attack with haste.
Seriously, Genesis Hydra and Temur Ascendancy are so good together I feel silly for having tried to build the deck otherwise.
Out With the Spells, In With the Creatures:
So I'm going to eat some crow here and admit that the older version of the deck was cool, but didn't have the focus it needed to truly shine. However, this new list I've cooked up can feel really broken:
I have to leave soon to go do a draft with some friends, but I'll come back and do a more in depth description of why so many cards changed, how the list plays differently, and why my sideboard is so skewed towards hosing mono-coloured aggro (local meta totally requires me to do it).
Also, I don't know how I did it, but the mana base is perfect. You would expect a 3 colour deck to have fixing problems, but between the balance I struck with my land spread, plus the two drop dorks, I've not once had an issue casting a spell with this deck. I can often play a turn 3 Temur Ascendancy with just my lands, and not even take damage for it.
But i have yet to think about creatures with toughness 5. Maybe fated conflagration X3 in the board.
I expect Burn Away to eventually become a fringe metagame player, especially once Sultai decks start showing up with more refined deck lists. It's more expensive to cast, but the mana requirements are far less restrictive, and exiling graveyards is actually a very relevant effect when Delve is a thing (and Delve is totally a thing).
Needs more Perilous Vault. Seriously, I don't think a lot of people remember that this is a real card, but it is sooooo gooood at mopping up everything. It also has the upside of making your opponent fear playing anything into it, making up for the tempo you lose on the turn you first play it (kind of).
I was playing Maze's End a good deal in the last Standard format (RIP :(), and after Perilous Vault was released I changed the deck around to be almost all Fogs, counterspells, and sweepers. The Vault was literally my only main deck non-land permanent, and it pulled serious weight in just about all match ups.
Obviously the Grixis deck will need to run some number of non-land permanents as win conditions, as there are no land based options for that right now, but that doesn't drop the power level of the card. Having such a strong reset button is a serious trump against what just about everyone is doing (except for Nissa, Worldwaker making lands into creatures) means that you can control the board state, wipe at your convenience on their end step (or in response to something they do/try to do), and then deploy a threat and start going on the offensive ASAP.
Think about the card. That's all I ask. I see it as a 2 of in this kind of list.
Thanks for taking a look, ProficientNomad. I'd already done a pretty thorough scour of the available options, and pretty much arrived at the same conclusions as you (Polukranos, World Eater and Polis Crusher best fit the bill, Ember Swallower is not embarrassing, but likely doesn't fit the bill). For the record, there are a few other creatures I've considered running, based on the Tribute mechanic (I'm not a big fan, but it's not terrible...)
Fanatic of Xenagos
I gave this some serious thought for playtime in the 3 slot, but Boon Satyr just offered too much flexibility. If they pay tribute, then Fanatic of Xenagos triggers Temur Ascendancy. However, if they don't pay, due to the wording of Ascendancy the ability will never trigger (it only triggers when 4+ power creatures enter the battlefield, it doesn't check when any creature enters the battlefield to see if it has 4 power). If the latter option were true, I could stack the triggers to draw cards whether they paid tribute or not, but alas, R&D was not so kind.
Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
Before everyone laughs at this "bad" mythic (I admit it isn't great), take a second to think about how the Tribute game changes with a Temur Ascendancy in play. Either they give you a 5/5 haste and you draw a card, or they give you a 3/3 haste and you get it back if it dies. Those are good enough options that I've given some serious thought to playing this in the slot where Ashcloud Phoenix currently sits. I tested a split for a while, but I might try switching them all over to Flame-Wreathed Phoenixes to see how I feel. I expect I'll be unhappy with it and will go back to Ashcloud (just seems more consistent), but it's worth playing with to see if anything surprises me.
Thoughts About Changes to the List:
One issue I've run into more than once with this deck is feeling like I don't quite have enough red sources. I think I'm going to tweak the mana base just a little bit, with the plan being to go:
I'm worried about the damage off of Confluence because of how aggressive the format currently is, but being able to cast anything I want to cast, whenever I want to cast it, might just be worth the few pings here and there. Plus, if my opponent is running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth then I get to use it as a Swamp instead!
The other change I'm thinking of is finding a way to get +1 Stubborn Denial into the main deck. This card is really good, and while I do have 4 in the 75, I want to bring in one from the board, which would free up a board slot for something new, likely either Keranos, God of Storms, another Surrak Dragonclaw, or another Sagu Mauler. Options for cards I'm thinking of swapping are...:
-1 Temur Ascendancy (I know I said I wanted to max on copies, but I'm not sure if that's really correct. My initial build only had 3, and maybe that's enough)
OR
-1 Elvish Mystic (This can only help with casting a few of the deck's spells, as G is the mana colour I have access to in the most abundance in most situations anyway, and I'm generally looking for another R or U source. Mystic is good, but maybe not an auto 4-of in this list the way it is in most others)
OR
-1 Crater's Claws (This just doesn't come up often enough for me to know if I really need it or not. If I have to cut just one of my flex spells, this would get the axe before Hour of Need, based purely on my desire to make stylish Hour of Need plays)
Possible Sideboard Changes
I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to swap Destructive Revelry for Back to Nature. I know there is some anti-synergy with Temur Ascendancy and Boon Satyr, but I think that the games where Back to Nature is good, that it will be so good that I won't mind a little bit of symmetry in the effect (I still expect it will hit them harder than it hits us), and I can also board out the cards most likely to end up as collateral damage.
Anyway, just keeping this up-to-date with my thought process about ways this list can be tweaked.
Final Thought:
Burn Away
So... this can kill things that are pretty big, but it also totally hoses any decks leaning too hard on the Delve mechanic. I think Sultai lists we see in the next few weeks will be increasingly tuned, and it's only so long before everyone is drawing 3 cards for 1 mana all day, or vomiting up big piles of Zombies with Empty the Pits. The metagame might not be mature enough for this to matter yet, but I want to note that this card is an option to keep in mind if the circumstances call for it.
Icefeather Aven is actually a pretty decent card. Definitely underrated and I think a viable card in constructed.
I agree that the Aven is pretty solid, and I might go back to experimenting with it in the deck. Truth be told, I've been so happy with Heir of the Wilds that I haven't really been looking for other 2 drops in the list.
You're in red but aren't running Goblin Rabblemaster. Boon Satyr is great and all, but Rabblemaster is format defining and obviously an incredibly powerful tempo card. In my lists, I've always considered Savage Knuckleblade and Rabblemaster to be the core. The two of them together demand answers from your opponent, or they probably just lose.
Rabblemaster is definitely a solid card. The main reason he didn't make this list is because of his inability to trigger card draw off of Temur Ascendancy. I'm not sure if I did a great job of driving the point home in my original post, but Temur Ascendancy is the main raison d'etre for the deck. The thing with this deck (and I'll get to this in more detail later) is that you look like a typical ramp deck at first, until you stick your first real threat. Then you shift gears and start playing a reactive game plan. Boon Satyr plays really well into both the defensive and pro-active modes of the deck, activates Ferocious, and draws cards off of Ascendancy.
Rabblemaster, while great, really only has one mode (make dudes, turn them sideways). The lack of both flexibility and synergy are what kept me away. Though I might consider him for future iterations of a Temur deck, for what this list is trying to do he just doesn't fit the bill.
Surrak is a good card, however, it's only as good as the control decks you're expecting to play against. All of the control decks are pretty shaky as of now, and counterspells are (generally speaking) pretty weak. I'd put him in the SB maybe, and bring him in MB if control decks become an issue. Personally, I'd consider Keranos, God of Storms as a curve-topper in a list like this. He's a value engine that can quickly accelerate you far ahead of the opponent.
I like Keranos a lot in certain lists, but I don't think he's quite impactful enough in this one. I'm open to considering him in a sideboard slot for games against more controlling opponents, however. He is a very grindy card, trying to win games by going long, and his lack of flash limits his utility once we've moved into our more reactive game plan. Here are things Surrak does for the list that Keranos can't:
1./ Surprise! It's a 6/6 blocker! Your thing dies. Keranos definitely can't do this.
2./ Surprise! Your blocks are bad because now my creatures suddenly have trample and... whoops, was that lethal?
3./ I really want Temur Ascendancy to draw all the cards.
Honestly, the "can't be countered" text on Surrak is pretty much just a bonus that gets stapled on, but it is not the reason I play him. He's just a really efficient rate on a creature (6/6 Flash for 5 is pretty good), and he makes combat calculations for your opponents much more difficult just by virtue of being in the list.
Also, I like Ashcloud Phoenix, but I think it belongs in a more controlling deck that wants to go into the late game. It really begins to shine when you get to that point of inevitability, where it becomes impossible to kill and your opponent needs to start making bad plays to stay afloat.
I agree that the Phoenix is at its best when you've got the 6 mana to re-flip it every turn if you can, but for me it covers a lot of important bases.
1./ It flies. As the only flier in our list, this is actually a big deal. Mantis Rider has proven to be a real thing, and Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkhan are bound to be around in some numbers, along with Butcher of the Horde and other things as well. I really need something to fill this role in the list, and it's either the Phoenix, or go slightly higher in the curve for my own Stormbreaths.
2./ It plays really well with Temur Ascendancy (my pet card for this list, in case you haven't noticed by now). A turn four Phoenix that stays at home on defence is meh. A turn four Phoenix that draws me a card and immediately swings for 4 up top is a really solid creature.
As for meeting the criteria of "4 drop that plays well with Ascendancy", two other cards I've been considering are Polukranos and Polis Crusher. If anyone has other suggestions that might be good here I've overlooked, I'm all ears.
I found the OP post kind of ironic talking about the Knuck not having to always go in a ramp deck and yet here he proposes a deck with 8 ramp sources lol...
I think you missed the "shifting gears" part of this decks gameplan that I discussed above. The fact that a deck contains mana accelerants (and seriously Rattleclaw Mystic is far too good at fixing in this deck not to play it) doesn't make it a "Monsters" deck. There is no irony here, regardless of whether you perceived any. The kinds of decks I was referring to certainly don't have late game instant speed plays that turn two of their mana dorks into 4/4 fliers, draw them two cards, and then swing with haste (Hour of Need, you're so pretty in this list).
Simply put, "Monsters" decks are tap out, I'm all in on making more dudes kind of decks. Think about Jund Monsters last season (and eventually Jund Walkers). It had all of what, two, maybe 3 instant speed plays in the whole list? Ultimate Price, Abrupt Decay, and sometimes Golgari Charm? These decks are mostly interested in saying "Here's a threat, can you answer it?" (if yes) "Ok, well, here's another threat" or, if no "Oh, that's too bad because don't look now but, here's another threat".
Ramp ramp ramp, tap out tap out tap out, occasionally stop to remove a blocker (usually at sorcery speed). Did I miss anything? My point was that most of the lists I've seen with Knuckleblade in them have been self-described "Temur Monsters" lists that follow this same game plan. The list I've proposed doesn't play that way, at all, and takes a much more controlling posture after resolving just one of its larger creatures.
I think Ascendancy is a pretty bad card as you can run a creature base that all have haste all ready or pseudo-haste in cards like Satyr / Dragonclaw.
Ascendancy is great at drawing cards. This isn't all about haste, although that is admittedly a large and important component. Having every threat you play for the rest of your game replace itself as soon as it comes into play is a big deal. Also, even with Knuckleblade, let me ask you the following question (let's assume a natural curve with no acceleration):
Would you rather:
1./ Play it on turn three for 3 mana, with no haste, and cross your fingers that they don't have a removal spell?
2./ Play it on turn four for 3 mana, pay one to give it haste, and cross your fingers that they don't remove it before you untap?
3./ Play it on turn four for 3 mana, draw a card off of last turn's Temur Ascendancy, attack right away because Ascendancy gave him haste without you having to invest extra mana, and keep the 4th mana open to hold up a Stubborn Denial in case they try to remove it before you get to untap?
I don't know about you, but one of those lines looks much more appealing to me than the other two.
(Here's a hint: it's the one where you draw an extra card, still get to attack, and hold up a counterspell for their removal attempt.)
For me, I play 9 creatures in my Temur deck and I've been doing extremely well (I guess 10 if you count the 1 of Sarkhan). Honestly, I've never figured out why none of these lists play Tormenting Voice and Dig Through Time over the poor ramp creatures (which lets you then MB Anger of the Gods...). My deck is base RU and splashes G, where most of these Temur lists I see is GR splashing U. I honestly think the former is much stronger (letting you really play the tempo/control game) with Disdainful Stroke and Stubborn Denial MB.
I don't dislike that version of the list, but I think yours and mine just have different approaches to how to play the game. Honestly, in my games with this list, other than Savage Knuckleblade (which everyone can see is obviously a good card) and Temur Ascendancy (can you tell I like this card?), the card in my deck that has impressed me the most is Heir of the Wilds. That card puts a lot of strain on their blockers, their life total, and their removal. They either have to deal with it, or resign themselves to eating 3 a turn for the rest of the game.
Not going to lie: the idea of running a mainboard Anger does hold some appeal for me, but that's just not where this list is at right now. Dig Through Time is a good spell, but I'm counting on Ascendancy to draw me cards (of which it does an excellent job, thanks) and don't really do much to actively fill my graveyard. Tormenting Voice is ok, I guess? But I'm not really looking for card selection or graveyard filling in this approach, either, and since the spell doesn't provide any actual card advantage, or accelerate my overall game plan, it's also not what I'm looking for. I can understand it if card quality really matters to you, but with all of temples I think I get enough selection without having to compromise on speed.
The problem with your deck is that a lot of time the cards you want to cast are very awkward with the others. Do you want to cast Mystic on T2 or Heir? You have all this ramp and not many ways to use it. On top of that you only have 11 ways to trigger the draw off Ascendancy and it can be very awkward drawing it when you've played your creatures. I think you're trying to do 2 things at once and end up doing both very poorly. Mystics and Rattleclaws are very bad in a tempo shell.
The answer to whether I want to cast Mystic or Heir on Turn 2 is contextual. Do I need Mystic for fixing or to accelerate a turn 3 option? Do I want Heir to apply some pressure on the ground? Am I going to have a turn 3 ferocious enabler to turn on the Heir right away? If I play Mystic now, can I play Heir + something else next turn? Your comment also completely ignores the existence of the Morph mechanic. Rattleclaw Mystic is both a 2 drop and a 3 drop.
That's not a conflict - those are options. I like having a little bit of flexibility in the way my list plays, giving me ways to adapt to different board states and opposing lists. By your reasoning, any list that runs multiple two drops is in conflict - (i.e. "omfg Jeskai Tempo, your list has Seeker of the Way AND Magma Jet AND Lightning Strike... which do you actually want to cast on T2?! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!") that example might seem like hyperbole, but that's where your reasoning takes it.
For the record, I don't think that 8 mana creatures is that much ramp, especially since Rattleclaw Mystic is actually also a completely respectable two power attacker when the situation calls for it. There's a reason Rattleclaw is in the list and Sylvan Caryatid isn't. As for things to ramp into, for starters there is literally every card in my deck (being able to play things a turn early is pretty helpful), but it also opens up things like making it easier to keep mana open for Stubborn Denial or Temur Charm or Disdainful Stroke (post board), lets me flash in Boon Satyr (especially in bestow mode) or Surrak earlier, lets me play bigger Crater's Claws, lets me flip Ashcloud Phoenix back up earlier, lets me dump excess mana into Savage Knuckleblade's activated abilities, and lets me Hour of Need more quickly and with more targets in the late game to upgrade my dudes, draw some cards, and give me a closer, lets me get down an early Sagu Mauler in sideboarded games where that is relevant... seriously if you can't see ways to spend mana in this deck, you're really not looking or trying.
You're right that drawing more copies of Ascendancy late game isn't exactly where you want to be, but neither is drawing Anger of the Gods if their board is empty, or Destructive Revelry if they have no targets. That's variance in Magic - sometimes your cards are really good, sometimes they're dead. At least multiple Ascendancy copies stack, so that if I play out the second and draw another threat the next turn, I can play it and draw TWO cards. I can also keep mana open to return Savage Knuckleblade, then re-deploy it to re-trigger Ascendancy. Maybe not the sexiest play in the world, but there are worse things than having the option to draw a card for 6 (or 3, untap, then another 3, more likely) when you're in a tight spot.
At the end of the day, I think you're knocking this list without actually having tested it, at all, or respecting the fact that just because it plays differently from how you would build it doesn't make it "bad". If you want to come in and give constructive feedback, talk about ways to improve on the base idea, and share thoughts about things that can be swapped in and out, I'm all ears.
However, if you want to come in, say "lol bad deck is bad", then post your list, that really isn't helpful, and is also missing the point, I think.
Your list looks good for you, and if you like playing it, more power to you. I like the way this list has played, in practice, and I'd like to keep building around the core ideas. If you want to be constructive and help improve a list, that's great, but don't come into a thread, ***** on someone's deck, give no constructive feedback, miss some critical interactions, and then conclude that your deck is good and mine is bad without so much as testing the list or giving the concepts a fair shake.
Thanks for the feedback, Raystack. I've definitely thought about the things you brought up as concerns, so here's how I got to the current version of the list:
Artifact Count
Part of the issue here is tied to the linearity of the deck - because the archetype requires multiple two-card synergies to function, the deck has lots of 'mandatory' card slots (threats require artifacts to enable them and vice-versa), keeping room for utility cards low. However, some of those utility cards are also 'mandatory' in the sense that they are required in order to interact with what others are doing in the meta-game (spot removal, hand disruption, and counters). Incidentally, this also makes sideboarding very challenging, as you only have a few slots that can be adjusted for any given match up.
Because of how aggressively this list plays, I'd say 4 out of 5 times I play Tezz I'm using his -1 to make another 5/5 and keep the stream of threats flowing. Unlike the more controlling version of the deck where he is a good source of card advantage and can find specific pieces to lock or hate your opponent, in this deck Tezz is here as a resilient source of threats who happens to be able to dig in a pinch on an even board.
This list is in flux, and in the version of the main-deck immediately prior to this one had +2 Spellskite, -2 Damnation, with Damnation having been moved to the board. This helped with an artifact count of 15 (that is my target number for the deck, I think you can't go higher without sacrificing core elements), but ultimately I decided that Damnation was able to get me more value in the match ups I was expecting.
Also, the artifact count is more like 17 than 13. I know this is kind of cheating, but I count the Blinkmoths because there are times when I can activate them to make a Mox live, which is a little like filtering a mana. Not ideal, but it works.
However, you are right to note that it is sometimes difficult to meet the metalcraft requirement for Mox Opal, which leads you to consider the following when looking at a hand: if you kept a Mox Opal but can't find the third artifact to enable metalcraft, do you run Mox Opal onto the table? This might seem like giving away information, but it is free to get it on board now, and depending on the board state it could represent a 'hasty' 5/5 threat on any subsequent turn off of an Ensoul or Tezzeret either in hand or off the top of the deck. Seeing the in hand situations are easy, but it's important to play to the top-deck, too.
Why not Affinity?
A few reasons. The main thing here is just that Affinity isn't my play style because it doesn't involve enough active disruption and interaction. Affinity doesn't interact so much as go wide and race. This deck is built more to go deep and interact, if that makes sense.
I also think this deck offers unique angles of attack that trump what Affinity can do, including being able to play a sweeper onto your own creature filled board and then attack anyway.
Finally, playing this version of an aggressive artifact deck strands many more 'dead' cards with your opponents than playing Affinity would. Their Bolts and Electrolyzes can't remove your threats (unless you're sloppy with man-land activations). Any of their 'destroy' effects are dead, and many of their stronger sideboard cards for the matchup (Ancient Grudge, Shatter Storm, Creeping Corrosion, Stony Silence, Pyroclasm, Drown in Sorrow, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Curse of Death's Hold, etc.) are all less good and/or dead in the match up.
By the way, since you took time to reply, any specific thoughts on IoK vs. Thoughtseize? Right now that's the main thing I'm going over in my mind as for which I'd rather be using game 1, or if I should run a split.
Edit: Didn't see Radouf's reply until after I'd written my first response -
I thought about Mana Leak a little bit, and I think I've found myself being more tempted by its little brother, Spell Pierce. There isn't really any single creature I can think of that I'm afraid of if it resolves, so being able to have a more mana efficient soft counter means it can allow me to keep protection available and curve into a threat a turn earlier than Leak would. I'm thinking about some number of Spell Pierce in the board, and have also considered Dispel for similar reasons. Perhaps a 1 and 1 split in the board would be good. I also like how efficient Spell Snare is, but I'm not sure there are enough 2 mana cards I actually care about. I tend to be more worried about 1, 3, and 4.
Vendilion Clique is a card I had thought about in very early list versions, but haven't thought much about since. I'm pretty sure I could find room for one or two in the sideboard, since that part is far from nailed down now anyway. I think it would be especially good against opposing Blood Moon decks, and probably also helps with Tron.
Serum Visions I did think about this, but I keep coming back to needing my cards to do something themselves, as opposed to finding me cards that do something. Thirst for Knowledge meets this requirement because it is a source of real card advantage, not just selection. That said, in some ways this deck is a combo deck, so having the ability to dig is somewhat appealing, I just don't think the benefits outweigh the risks of cutting the cards in the slots it would need to occupy.
You're right that Shackles and Lich don't play nicely together, which is why I think a rebuild would be in order if I tried to go that route. More fetchlands, shocklands, still Urborgs... I just don't think it can do what this deck does anymore at that point.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang out of the SB sounds pretty appealing, actually. I like the argument that he's good once they board out their dead removal, although I do think that by virtue of his 5 toughness he still already didn't die to a lot of those cards anyway. Still, having an additional source of cards if a game goes long could be beneficial.
If I try to up my artifact count, I think I start by cutting a land back down to 22 and finding a cheap bauble or one mana artifact to fill the slot, like another Darksteel Relic.
I'm about to post a list I've been hacking away at for the past two months or so. This list is built on a U/B Tezzeret Control shell, but underwent some significant changes on the way such that the deck looks much different now, and is arguably no longer a control deck. There are reasons I made these changes, and I'll get into those below, but to summarize the main two:
1./ U/B Tezz Control felt too slow sometimes. I wanted to give a faster clock and way to close out the game.
2./ The list I (and most on this forum, from what I can tell) built on was Shota Yasooka's 2014 Modern Pro Tour list, which did not have access to certain appealing cards that have since been released.
So with those two points made, let me get the list up, and then talk specifically about some of the card choices, and what has and has not performed well for me in testing.
Behold, THIRSTY LICHES!:
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
2x Creeping Tar Pit
3x River of Tears
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Snow-covered Swamp
1x Snow-covered Island
Artifacts:
3x Darksteel Axe
4x Talisman of Dominance
2x Mox Opal
4x Ensoul Artifact
4x Phylactery Lich
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Disruption:
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Stubborn Denial
2x Smother
1x Doom Blade
1x Go for the Throat
2x Damnation
Refill:
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Duress
1x Consume the Meek
2x Negate
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
3x Spellskite
2x Torpor Orb
Alright, so hopefully you don't have to look at the list for too long to figure out what's going on here. An army of indestructible 5/5 creatures has proven, time and again, to be something my opponents aren't prepared to kill. That said, here are some comments on specific card choices and things to watch out for:
Top 5 Cards to Avoid (this is game one, obviously people will have spiteful stuff post board):
1./ Path to Exile & Dismember - While most removal is dead against our threats, these are obviously live. The way to play around them is to use IoK to dig into their hand and clear the way, and then have Stubborn Denial around to protect your resolved threats. I'd also like to quickly add at this point that Stubborn Denial is perhaps both the most important card and the biggest revelation in the deck. Patrick Chapin's pro tour efforts might not have shown it, but Stubborn Denial was a hidden gem in his list, and it has consistently over-performed for me in this deck. Meeting the ferocious condition is very easy, since all of your non man-land threats meet the criteria, and even being able to just Force Spike people can be great, especially if used on turn one on the play to counter your opponent on the draw from hitting you with targeted discard.
2./ Liliana of the Veil - I haven't played against Lilly much with this deck yet, but she also can answer our big threats. Top ways to beat her are: make them discard her early, counter her before she comes down, Damnation a board with an indestructible threat on your side to swing through and clean up, or use your man lands to pressure her and potentially speed that effort up with Darksteel Axe. The Axe is mostly there as an Ensoul target, Tezz target, or to be a good Phylactery counter holder, but it is also relevant surprisingly often as a piece of equipment. Equipping the man lands is great, and sometimes your creatures need the extra 2 power to win a ground fight through a Wurmcoil Engine or something.
3./ Blood Moon - The worst. Not gonna lie, if they stick this, unless you're pretty far ahead on board, you're not likely to win. Our 6 mana rocks do give us some chance of not being locked out, but it's definitely uphill. The deck only plays two basics, and doesn't run any fetches. That decision is motivated by a desire to take less damage from our mana base, and since we don't take any and our threats are big and cheap, we actually have a really good shot at racing burn in game one. The two basics in the deck are actually a concession to how good Path is against us as a removal spell, and helps mitigate the downside.
4./ Cryptic Command - Because of the way the threats in the deck come together, Cryptic's bounce mode can often set up some gross 2 or 3 for 1 scenarios where they bounce whatever artifact you have Ensouled, or bounce whatever artifact is holding your Phylactery Counter. IoK also can't get it, but at least sees it coming. All I can offer here is that Stubborn Denial is amazing against this card, and you should hope to draw a copy before you get Cryptic'd. The one thing I'll say about Cryptic Command is that the times at which it tends to be cast are predictable, so even if you don't know they have it, if you think they do you can often set up situations where you can use Stubborn Denial's Force Spike mode to deal with it, since people seem to have no problem tapping out on turn 4 if they don't know about your denials yet.
5./ Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - So I never even thought about this card until I played against it, but Ugin is gross because while almost every other sweeper in the game is irrelevant against our indestructible legion, Ugin can easily eat all of your Ensouls, Liches, and Tezzerets. More frustratingly, though, you often can't take a line that plays around both Karn AND Ugin. Karn makes you want to play redundant threats in case he comes down to exile the first, and Ugin makes you want to sandbag threats because when he comes down he'll eat everything. Only your man-lands and Tezz'd threats are safe. Plan accordingly.
That's where the deck is now. Here are some changes I've currently got in mind for the main deck:
+2 Darksteel Relic / -2 Darksteel Axe
I was pretty averse to Relic when I was first researching the list because it seems extremely 'do nothing' without the synergizing components. At least Axe is relevant in cases where equipping it is good. However, the cards making me rethink my assessment are Mox Opal, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Stubborn Denial. By getting out a Relic on turn one, for free, instead of having to decide whether to play the Axe or cast/leave up disruption, I'm more likely to have hands that let me curve a turn one disruption spell into turn 2 Ensoul, swing. I also like this option because getting our indestructible targets onto zero on our curve instead of one makes Chalice of the Void more viable as a sideboard card, which is something I've been playing with the idea of for decks like Burn, Affinity, Storm, and Zoo.
It occurs to me that this also leads to the nut draw of: Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, Darksteel Relic, and Ensoul Artifact. This deck already has explosive draws, but by adding this I get the terrifying T1: "Citadel, Opal, Relic, Ensoul Relic, go."
Now imagine the remaining 3 cards in your hand are land, Stubborn Denial, Thirst for Knowledge. I don't see how that hand loses.
+4 Ghost Quarter, +1 or 2 Crucible of Worlds / -4 Blinkmoth Nexus, -1 or 2 Artifacts (not sure which)
Blinkmoth is great, sometimes it's my MVP. However, I really wish I had a good way to not get rolled over by Tron. If I were to make this change, I'd also totally shake up the mana base to enable myself to recur fetches for whatever value that entailed. I'd probably also find room for Vedalken Shackles somewhere at the same time, although I think that would lead down the road to a much different deck. I don't know, but it seems good. Maybe I can get away with using Fulminator Mage for those purposes instead?
-2 to 4 Inquisition of Kozilek / +2 to 4 Thoughtseize
The question is simple but I don't know the answer: in the current meta, is being able to hit Cryptic, Twin, Rhino, Become Immense, and Karn/Ugin (mostly) more important than not taking 2 (or more) damage against decks like Scapeshift, Burn, Zoo, Affinity, or other highly aggressive archetypes?
Bonus Round!
Find room for the singleton Rapid Hybridization in this deck, because it is both a sweet removal spell nobody expects, and you can also get awesome value on defense by targeting your own indestructible threats for 1 mana 3/3s at instant speed!
Anyhow, that's all I've got to say on the deck for the time being. I'd look forward to whatever input you folks have on cards I may not have considered or properly analyzed.
Cheers.
Question for Reanimator Players at large:
What do we think about delve spells, and how many should be in the 75? Which and where?
I was starting to play with 2x Dig Through Time, but I found that by the time I was ready to dig, I was also usually always ready to just reanimate some fatty, usually Griselbrand. With Griselbrand out, Dig becomes almost useless (other than as "blue spell" for FoW), and it's just really unimpressive. I still really like that it can let you reload exactly what you need for a combo in the face of too much disruption, but I feel like I'm better off just trying to 'go off' consistently on my first few tries than I am trying to play a sub-optimal card that helps me reload when I fail to force my things through.
For the time being, I've cut down to just one Dig in the main, since I still like the utility. Can anyone else with some more experience playtesting Delve spells weigh in on this? I'd love to know what other players thing.
Cheers.
SCG recently featured a Bant Stasis list that looked pretty cool. It used mana creatures, Quirion Ranger, and Scryb Ranger with Exploration and Horn of Greed as the engine. I'm in the process of building it (or some iteration thereof) because Stasis is the best!
Personally, I took the Dark Rituals out of my build and am running a small number of Mox Diamonds instead (currently 2, might go up to 3). I don't really need them for the colour fixing, but it's nice to have a source of mana acceleration that a) sticks around even if whatever it was accelerating gets countered, and b) doesn't count towards Pox counts for mana sources, further breaking Pox symetry in our favour. Mox Diamond is also a good discard outlet for things like Crucible of Worlds in the main, so if I discard lands I know I'll get a shot to recur them in the long run.
I'd be interested in hearing everyone else's thoughts re: Dark Ritual vs. Mox Diamond as acceleration sources.
I think that Necroplasm is a good card, but it has two really big downsides stapled to it, as compared to Nether Spirit.
First, and most importantly, is that Nether Spirit costs ZERO mana 9 times out of 10. Given that Pox has a tendency to destroy our own lands with our spells, having a threat that comes back every turn, for free, is a pretty big deal.
The second issue is that, in order to dredge the Necroplasm, you also have to not draw a card. This is also a big issue, because sometimes you need a blocker and to draw cards that keep advancing your board state.
Take two different game states: one where you have 3 lands and a Necroplasm, and your opponent has 3 lands and a 5/6 Tarmogoyf. Let's say the Tarmogoyf represents lethal, and you have to block it. This means that for every turn for the rest of the game, you need to dredge your Necroplasm, and then spend all 3 of your mana just to cast it. You will never win this game without taking a chance on not dredging, and instead hoping to hit a relevant card off the top of your deck. At best Necroplasm will slowly lose the game for you, and in a sense you will be "Necroplasm locked."
Take the same scenario, but replace the creature with Nether Spirit. Now, you've got a blocker, for free, every turn, and are free to draw off the top of your deck while you look for a permanent answer to the Tarmogoyf. You can wall that 'Goyf all day, and still be able to draw through your deck looking for relevant spells. Necroplasm just doesn't give you that option.
Ultimately, Necroplasm is a good creature and idea, but I think the marginal utility is far too low compared to what Nether Spirit brings to the table.
Edit: The only place I would see Necroplasm doing good work is against a matchup that is already good for this deck. Against U/R Delver, you would kill their Elemental tokens and Insectile Aberrations on zero (turn 1), their un-flipped Delvers and Swiftspears on one (turn 2), and their Young Pyromancers on 2 (turn 3). Even then, I'd rather just board in Engineered Plague on Humans and watch them weep. Ditto for the Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk matchups.
I also actually forgot to list one card among "potentially playable delve spells".
Anybody give any thought to Empty the Pits?
We run so many black sources + Urborg (and Dark Rituals and Moxes) that getting the BBBB casting cost portion shouldn't be too hard. Then we can delve the whole yard and produce an army out of nowhere. Seems legit to me? Possibly as an alternative to Tombstalker?
I had an opponent cast TC THREE TIMES against me in one match. All max delve, as in he delved 21 cards that game. I was just on Gatherer looking for the most spiteful tech I could come up with to beat that card, because I feel like I was losing games to Treasure Cruise when I had the rest of their deck under control.
I'm just going to list a bunch of ideas, either possibly as main deck or sideboard tech, but with Delve becoming a big time mechanic in Legacy, I think we can't get away with not attacking people's Graveyards as a resource, because it WILL eventually fuel their grip.
Ravenous Trap
Grave Consequences
Gravestorm
Planar Void
Bitter Ordeal
Also, the notion of just having either main deck Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, or Nihil Spellbomb also occurred to me. I don't mind letting them get one TC off if it means I can stop them from doing it again in a game, but when they can do it multiple times in a game it really gets out of hand.
Also, what do you all think of the possibilities Khans opened up for Delve in Pox? Specifically, these cards stand out as playable:
Murderous Cut
Somewhat an upgrade over Spinning Darkness? Upsides include ability to kill black creatures, and ability to kill things with toughness > 3 (mostly 'Goyf, maybe opposing Tombstalker).
Necropolis Fiend
Any chance this is better or en par with Tombstalker? Being able to keep shooting things could be relevant.
We were missing what I've quickly realized is possibly our most important creature:
Genesis Hydra
In playing the deck, it always feels most powerful when you have an early Temur Ascendancy ensuring your stream of cards never runs out. I wanted to play a more control oriented late game, but I've realized that is just isn't as powerful as getting a consistently early Temur Ascendancy and then triggering it as many times as possible. This caused a complete re-build with a hard shift in focus towards permanents to maximize the chance of sticking something worthwhile with Genesis Hydra.
Why Hydra and Ascendancy are BFFs:
Let's think of the two different scenarios - one where you start with Temur Ascendancy in play before casting your Genesis Hydra, and one where you don't.
A thing to note is that you always want to try to Hydra for an X value of at least 4 to ensure your Hydra will trigger Ascendancy (an exception is if you know a Knuckleblade is in your top 3 cards, in which case it is acceptable to Hydra for 3 to flip it and still trigger a card draw). So say you cast Hydra, X = 4 with an Ascendancy on board, and flip a Savage Knuckleblade. The Genesis ability will resolve before it enters the battlefield itself, so you'll flip 4, grab the Knuckleblade, and then shuffle your library. Then the Knuckleblade enters the battlefield, triggers Ascendancy, and draws you a card. Then, once its "When you cast" trigger has been resolved, the Hydra enters the battlefield as a 4/4, triggers Ascendancy, and draws you another card. Both creatures have haste from Ascendancy, and you are at option to attack.
When you start without an Ascendancy in play, you still want to cast for at least X = 4, because you want to find an Ascendancy with the Hydra trigger, put it into play, and then have the Hydra enter the battlefield onto it, trigger it, draw you a card and attack with haste.
Seriously, Genesis Hydra and Temur Ascendancy are so good together I feel silly for having tried to build the deck otherwise.
Out With the Spells, In With the Creatures:
So I'm going to eat some crow here and admit that the older version of the deck was cool, but didn't have the focus it needed to truly shine. However, this new list I've cooked up can feel really broken:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Savage Knuckleblade
4x Genesis Hydra
3x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Ashcloud Phoenix
3x Sagu Mauler
Spells:
4x Temur Ascendancy
2x Hour of Need
1x Frontier Bivouac
4x Temple of Mystery
4x Temple of Abandon
3x Wooded Foothills
4x Yavimaya Coast
1x Shivan Reef
3x Forest
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Scuttling Doom Engine
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
4x Stubborn Denial
4x Feed the Clan
4x Circle of Flame
I have to leave soon to go do a draft with some friends, but I'll come back and do a more in depth description of why so many cards changed, how the list plays differently, and why my sideboard is so skewed towards hosing mono-coloured aggro (local meta totally requires me to do it).
Also, I don't know how I did it, but the mana base is perfect. You would expect a 3 colour deck to have fixing problems, but between the balance I struck with my land spread, plus the two drop dorks, I've not once had an issue casting a spell with this deck. I can often play a turn 3 Temur Ascendancy with just my lands, and not even take damage for it.
I expect Burn Away to eventually become a fringe metagame player, especially once Sultai decks start showing up with more refined deck lists. It's more expensive to cast, but the mana requirements are far less restrictive, and exiling graveyards is actually a very relevant effect when Delve is a thing (and Delve is totally a thing).
Uh, you mean turn 7, right?
Jace comes down turn 4 with 5 loyalty, +1 right away = 6 loyalty Jace on T4.
T5 +1 = 7
T6 +1 = 8
T7 -8 = Ultimate on Turn 7.
What kind of crazy math are you doing?
I was playing Maze's End a good deal in the last Standard format (RIP :(), and after Perilous Vault was released I changed the deck around to be almost all Fogs, counterspells, and sweepers. The Vault was literally my only main deck non-land permanent, and it pulled serious weight in just about all match ups.
Obviously the Grixis deck will need to run some number of non-land permanents as win conditions, as there are no land based options for that right now, but that doesn't drop the power level of the card. Having such a strong reset button is a serious trump against what just about everyone is doing (except for Nissa, Worldwaker making lands into creatures) means that you can control the board state, wipe at your convenience on their end step (or in response to something they do/try to do), and then deploy a threat and start going on the offensive ASAP.
Think about the card. That's all I ask. I see it as a 2 of in this kind of list.
Fanatic of Xenagos
I gave this some serious thought for playtime in the 3 slot, but Boon Satyr just offered too much flexibility. If they pay tribute, then Fanatic of Xenagos triggers Temur Ascendancy. However, if they don't pay, due to the wording of Ascendancy the ability will never trigger (it only triggers when 4+ power creatures enter the battlefield, it doesn't check when any creature enters the battlefield to see if it has 4 power). If the latter option were true, I could stack the triggers to draw cards whether they paid tribute or not, but alas, R&D was not so kind.
Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
Before everyone laughs at this "bad" mythic (I admit it isn't great), take a second to think about how the Tribute game changes with a Temur Ascendancy in play. Either they give you a 5/5 haste and you draw a card, or they give you a 3/3 haste and you get it back if it dies. Those are good enough options that I've given some serious thought to playing this in the slot where Ashcloud Phoenix currently sits. I tested a split for a while, but I might try switching them all over to Flame-Wreathed Phoenixes to see how I feel. I expect I'll be unhappy with it and will go back to Ashcloud (just seems more consistent), but it's worth playing with to see if anything surprises me.
Thoughts About Changes to the List:
One issue I've run into more than once with this deck is feeling like I don't quite have enough red sources. I think I'm going to tweak the mana base just a little bit, with the plan being to go:
-1 Yavimaya Coast
and either...
+1 Wooded Foothills
OR
+1 Mana Confluence
I'm worried about the damage off of Confluence because of how aggressive the format currently is, but being able to cast anything I want to cast, whenever I want to cast it, might just be worth the few pings here and there. Plus, if my opponent is running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth then I get to use it as a Swamp instead!
The other change I'm thinking of is finding a way to get +1 Stubborn Denial into the main deck. This card is really good, and while I do have 4 in the 75, I want to bring in one from the board, which would free up a board slot for something new, likely either Keranos, God of Storms, another Surrak Dragonclaw, or another Sagu Mauler. Options for cards I'm thinking of swapping are...:
+1 Stubborn Denial
and taking out...
-1 Temur Ascendancy (I know I said I wanted to max on copies, but I'm not sure if that's really correct. My initial build only had 3, and maybe that's enough)
OR
-1 Elvish Mystic (This can only help with casting a few of the deck's spells, as G is the mana colour I have access to in the most abundance in most situations anyway, and I'm generally looking for another R or U source. Mystic is good, but maybe not an auto 4-of in this list the way it is in most others)
OR
-1 Crater's Claws (This just doesn't come up often enough for me to know if I really need it or not. If I have to cut just one of my flex spells, this would get the axe before Hour of Need, based purely on my desire to make stylish Hour of Need plays)
Possible Sideboard Changes
I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to swap Destructive Revelry for Back to Nature. I know there is some anti-synergy with Temur Ascendancy and Boon Satyr, but I think that the games where Back to Nature is good, that it will be so good that I won't mind a little bit of symmetry in the effect (I still expect it will hit them harder than it hits us), and I can also board out the cards most likely to end up as collateral damage.
Anyway, just keeping this up-to-date with my thought process about ways this list can be tweaked.
Final Thought:
Burn Away
So... this can kill things that are pretty big, but it also totally hoses any decks leaning too hard on the Delve mechanic. I think Sultai lists we see in the next few weeks will be increasingly tuned, and it's only so long before everyone is drawing 3 cards for 1 mana all day, or vomiting up big piles of Zombies with Empty the Pits. The metagame might not be mature enough for this to matter yet, but I want to note that this card is an option to keep in mind if the circumstances call for it.
I agree that the Aven is pretty solid, and I might go back to experimenting with it in the deck. Truth be told, I've been so happy with Heir of the Wilds that I haven't really been looking for other 2 drops in the list.
Rabblemaster is definitely a solid card. The main reason he didn't make this list is because of his inability to trigger card draw off of Temur Ascendancy. I'm not sure if I did a great job of driving the point home in my original post, but Temur Ascendancy is the main raison d'etre for the deck. The thing with this deck (and I'll get to this in more detail later) is that you look like a typical ramp deck at first, until you stick your first real threat. Then you shift gears and start playing a reactive game plan. Boon Satyr plays really well into both the defensive and pro-active modes of the deck, activates Ferocious, and draws cards off of Ascendancy.
Rabblemaster, while great, really only has one mode (make dudes, turn them sideways). The lack of both flexibility and synergy are what kept me away. Though I might consider him for future iterations of a Temur deck, for what this list is trying to do he just doesn't fit the bill.
I like Keranos a lot in certain lists, but I don't think he's quite impactful enough in this one. I'm open to considering him in a sideboard slot for games against more controlling opponents, however. He is a very grindy card, trying to win games by going long, and his lack of flash limits his utility once we've moved into our more reactive game plan. Here are things Surrak does for the list that Keranos can't:
1./ Surprise! It's a 6/6 blocker! Your thing dies. Keranos definitely can't do this.
2./ Surprise! Your blocks are bad because now my creatures suddenly have trample and... whoops, was that lethal?
3./ I really want Temur Ascendancy to draw all the cards.
Honestly, the "can't be countered" text on Surrak is pretty much just a bonus that gets stapled on, but it is not the reason I play him. He's just a really efficient rate on a creature (6/6 Flash for 5 is pretty good), and he makes combat calculations for your opponents much more difficult just by virtue of being in the list.
I agree that the Phoenix is at its best when you've got the 6 mana to re-flip it every turn if you can, but for me it covers a lot of important bases.
1./ It flies. As the only flier in our list, this is actually a big deal. Mantis Rider has proven to be a real thing, and Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkhan are bound to be around in some numbers, along with Butcher of the Horde and other things as well. I really need something to fill this role in the list, and it's either the Phoenix, or go slightly higher in the curve for my own Stormbreaths.
2./ It plays really well with Temur Ascendancy (my pet card for this list, in case you haven't noticed by now). A turn four Phoenix that stays at home on defence is meh. A turn four Phoenix that draws me a card and immediately swings for 4 up top is a really solid creature.
As for meeting the criteria of "4 drop that plays well with Ascendancy", two other cards I've been considering are Polukranos and Polis Crusher. If anyone has other suggestions that might be good here I've overlooked, I'm all ears.
I think you missed the "shifting gears" part of this decks gameplan that I discussed above. The fact that a deck contains mana accelerants (and seriously Rattleclaw Mystic is far too good at fixing in this deck not to play it) doesn't make it a "Monsters" deck. There is no irony here, regardless of whether you perceived any. The kinds of decks I was referring to certainly don't have late game instant speed plays that turn two of their mana dorks into 4/4 fliers, draw them two cards, and then swing with haste (Hour of Need, you're so pretty in this list).
Simply put, "Monsters" decks are tap out, I'm all in on making more dudes kind of decks. Think about Jund Monsters last season (and eventually Jund Walkers). It had all of what, two, maybe 3 instant speed plays in the whole list? Ultimate Price, Abrupt Decay, and sometimes Golgari Charm? These decks are mostly interested in saying "Here's a threat, can you answer it?" (if yes) "Ok, well, here's another threat" or, if no "Oh, that's too bad because don't look now but, here's another threat".
Ramp ramp ramp, tap out tap out tap out, occasionally stop to remove a blocker (usually at sorcery speed). Did I miss anything? My point was that most of the lists I've seen with Knuckleblade in them have been self-described "Temur Monsters" lists that follow this same game plan. The list I've proposed doesn't play that way, at all, and takes a much more controlling posture after resolving just one of its larger creatures.
Ascendancy is great at drawing cards. This isn't all about haste, although that is admittedly a large and important component. Having every threat you play for the rest of your game replace itself as soon as it comes into play is a big deal. Also, even with Knuckleblade, let me ask you the following question (let's assume a natural curve with no acceleration):
Would you rather:
1./ Play it on turn three for 3 mana, with no haste, and cross your fingers that they don't have a removal spell?
2./ Play it on turn four for 3 mana, pay one to give it haste, and cross your fingers that they don't remove it before you untap?
3./ Play it on turn four for 3 mana, draw a card off of last turn's Temur Ascendancy, attack right away because Ascendancy gave him haste without you having to invest extra mana, and keep the 4th mana open to hold up a Stubborn Denial in case they try to remove it before you get to untap?
I don't know about you, but one of those lines looks much more appealing to me than the other two.
(Here's a hint: it's the one where you draw an extra card, still get to attack, and hold up a counterspell for their removal attempt.)
I don't dislike that version of the list, but I think yours and mine just have different approaches to how to play the game. Honestly, in my games with this list, other than Savage Knuckleblade (which everyone can see is obviously a good card) and Temur Ascendancy (can you tell I like this card?), the card in my deck that has impressed me the most is Heir of the Wilds. That card puts a lot of strain on their blockers, their life total, and their removal. They either have to deal with it, or resign themselves to eating 3 a turn for the rest of the game.
Not going to lie: the idea of running a mainboard Anger does hold some appeal for me, but that's just not where this list is at right now. Dig Through Time is a good spell, but I'm counting on Ascendancy to draw me cards (of which it does an excellent job, thanks) and don't really do much to actively fill my graveyard. Tormenting Voice is ok, I guess? But I'm not really looking for card selection or graveyard filling in this approach, either, and since the spell doesn't provide any actual card advantage, or accelerate my overall game plan, it's also not what I'm looking for. I can understand it if card quality really matters to you, but with all of temples I think I get enough selection without having to compromise on speed.
The answer to whether I want to cast Mystic or Heir on Turn 2 is contextual. Do I need Mystic for fixing or to accelerate a turn 3 option? Do I want Heir to apply some pressure on the ground? Am I going to have a turn 3 ferocious enabler to turn on the Heir right away? If I play Mystic now, can I play Heir + something else next turn? Your comment also completely ignores the existence of the Morph mechanic. Rattleclaw Mystic is both a 2 drop and a 3 drop.
That's not a conflict - those are options. I like having a little bit of flexibility in the way my list plays, giving me ways to adapt to different board states and opposing lists. By your reasoning, any list that runs multiple two drops is in conflict - (i.e. "omfg Jeskai Tempo, your list has Seeker of the Way AND Magma Jet AND Lightning Strike... which do you actually want to cast on T2?! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!") that example might seem like hyperbole, but that's where your reasoning takes it.
For the record, I don't think that 8 mana creatures is that much ramp, especially since Rattleclaw Mystic is actually also a completely respectable two power attacker when the situation calls for it. There's a reason Rattleclaw is in the list and Sylvan Caryatid isn't. As for things to ramp into, for starters there is literally every card in my deck (being able to play things a turn early is pretty helpful), but it also opens up things like making it easier to keep mana open for Stubborn Denial or Temur Charm or Disdainful Stroke (post board), lets me flash in Boon Satyr (especially in bestow mode) or Surrak earlier, lets me play bigger Crater's Claws, lets me flip Ashcloud Phoenix back up earlier, lets me dump excess mana into Savage Knuckleblade's activated abilities, and lets me Hour of Need more quickly and with more targets in the late game to upgrade my dudes, draw some cards, and give me a closer, lets me get down an early Sagu Mauler in sideboarded games where that is relevant... seriously if you can't see ways to spend mana in this deck, you're really not looking or trying.
The list has 12 ways to trigger Ascendancy, by the way, not 11 - 4x Savage Knuckleblade, 3x Boon Satyr, 3x Ashcloud Phoenix, 1x Surrak Dragonclaw, 1x Hour of Need.
4 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 12, no?
You're right that drawing more copies of Ascendancy late game isn't exactly where you want to be, but neither is drawing Anger of the Gods if their board is empty, or Destructive Revelry if they have no targets. That's variance in Magic - sometimes your cards are really good, sometimes they're dead. At least multiple Ascendancy copies stack, so that if I play out the second and draw another threat the next turn, I can play it and draw TWO cards. I can also keep mana open to return Savage Knuckleblade, then re-deploy it to re-trigger Ascendancy. Maybe not the sexiest play in the world, but there are worse things than having the option to draw a card for 6 (or 3, untap, then another 3, more likely) when you're in a tight spot.
At the end of the day, I think you're knocking this list without actually having tested it, at all, or respecting the fact that just because it plays differently from how you would build it doesn't make it "bad". If you want to come in and give constructive feedback, talk about ways to improve on the base idea, and share thoughts about things that can be swapped in and out, I'm all ears.
However, if you want to come in, say "lol bad deck is bad", then post your list, that really isn't helpful, and is also missing the point, I think.
Your list looks good for you, and if you like playing it, more power to you. I like the way this list has played, in practice, and I'd like to keep building around the core ideas. If you want to be constructive and help improve a list, that's great, but don't come into a thread, ***** on someone's deck, give no constructive feedback, miss some critical interactions, and then conclude that your deck is good and mine is bad without so much as testing the list or giving the concepts a fair shake.