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  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from ShaperOfChaos »
    If you look at the decks that leaned heavily on Myth Realized and Elspeth, Sun's Champion it feels like they could easily adapt to having the thopter + sword combo. The mid-range control decks already have their aggro plan figured out and I think the cards needed to really synergize with thopters will require removing too many of those elements.

    Pros:
    • Early (flying) blockers help against creature-based aggro.
    • Life-gain component helps against burn and aggro decks.
    • Doesn't require significant tapping out (compared to Elspeth) on your main phase.
    • Grows quickly (faster than Myth, faster than Elspeth most of the time).
    • Has evasion to swing with.

    Cons:
    • Two cards, so harder to set up.
    • Weak to graveyard hate.
    • Weak to artifact hate.

    Those are some significant drawbacks, but ultimately I feel it's resilient enough to warrant some exploration. I think it's a great addition for the decks that want to play more on the control side of things and less on the midrange side.

    I think AV is of dubious value. The 4-turn delay makes it a terrible top deck, though if you can resolve it you can bury your opponent in card advantage. It'll work best in the deck that already have strong ability to delay and draw out the game, which I don't think any of us particularly like in the current meta.


    The unbans are without a doubt interesting, but from my standpoint I haven't made up my mind about these new tools yet. You mention that "myth & elspeth" decks could adopt the combo.My own list as an example;

    The thopter-sword combo doesn't give earlier blockers than Lingering Souls so that's not an improvement. That being said, it's reapeatable, scales with your mana, and provides life which is nice. However, as you mentioned, you'll need to find the combo. Though you don't really want to run a full playset of each piece as the effect doesn't stack. It's also important to be aware of that the pieces alone doesn't do much, making both a bad top-deck if they're alone. You'll probably want cards like Thirst and Serum Visions for digging.

    If I would take my deck as a starting point, the first cuts would be:

    -4 Myths
    -1 Clique (moved to the side)
    -1 Painful Truths
    +3 Thopter Foundry
    +2 Sword of the Meek
    +1 Thirst for Knowledge

    It's an interesting first change, that's for sure. Though, when it comes to AV versus SV, I think that Serum would be the best for the list as it helps dig for the combo and can be re-cast with Snapcaster.

    Edit small observations:

    * T1 Ancestral Vision conflict with T1 colonnade which is slightly awkward.

    * Jace, Architect of Thought seems relevant in the new meta if thopters running rampant.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from Kahleelah »
    Arguments like "this goldfish is great" doesn't encourage me to play it. How often does Myth fail to impact the board in a meaningful way? How often is it a bad top deck? These are problems I have with it, in theory.


    It was a response to "why not run an actual win con". What does that even mean, what defines an "actual" win condition? These are my playtesting results with Myth. Myth have won me games, fallen short in some. I don't have more to add than my experience with the card, all I know is that it works for me.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Myth doesn't cause overextension, it cause consideration - wether or not your opponent decides to represent interaction for your myth. This is why, in my opinion, cards like Lingering Souls & Timely are essential for the Myth strategy.

    I don't understand what you mean with "why not run an actual win con". Myth is definitely an actual win con, you can't compare it to five-six mana walkers and three-four mana creatures. It cost one mana!

    Here's an optimal goldfish example from my deck;
    T1 colonnade
    T2 Myth + Visions
    T3 Souls
    T4 Swing with souls, verdict
    T5 Flashback Souls, Visions, Path - attack with a 6/6 Myth

    It's not uncommon for me to have a 12/12 myth, and I still have access to threats like Gideon, Archangel Avacyn, Souls etc. I don't get why people think you have to give up those cards when you run Myth Realized. You can't replace the card with anything in UW midrange and call it a day, you have to construct a specific type of deck in order to utilize it properly.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from TheAller »
    To be clear, I have nothing against your love for Myth guys, and I like the way you are experimenting, it's one of the best things to do in Magic. That being said, I believe you're overestimating Myth's potential and I explained why. I don't have much to add, except I need to ask you Spotred to explain me exactly what this means:

    While yes, there aren’t any high level placements to prove the card’s potential (I check regularly), there isn’t any placements to show that it has failed either.


    'Cause to me the second part of this sentence is really obscure. No sarcasm intended.


    Yeah, that sentence became a bit vague, apologies. Also, when I wrote that I failed to realize that low placing results normally aren't shared at mtgtop8 & goldfish.

    What I tried to say is that the card seems untested. This definitely do say more against the card's relevance than for it. So I guess the only thing I can do is to keep at it and place well with it myself.

    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I feel the need to chime in on the recent discussion, as I’ve been an advocate for Myth Realized pretty much since it was spoiled. My goal have been to make an optimal UW build for the card - this is where I’m at currently ”Mythic Command”.

    I'm currently sitting at a 64% playtesting win rate over 54 Bo3 games - link, so that's all the credibility I currently can serve the table.

    ---

    I'm not going to touch the points in the discussion that has happened, as I don't have time to actively participate. Instead I'm going to share my thoughts on the card based on my own experience and observations;

    1. The context:

    I think it's important to realize that Myth shouldn't be slotted into the default UW build. Due to the nature of the card you're required to have a higher spell density than the typical midrange approach. When you look at these restrictions, you shouldn't think about what the card has replaced in the traditional list, but rather see it as an unique build with its own set of pros & cons. I believe Myth facilitates an unique deck in similar fashion as Emiria Control - UW is a vast color combination, builds can coexist.

    2. The facilitator:

    By including Myth in your build you're committing yourself to a spell heavy deck. The fact that you aren't forced to run any 'bad or specific' cards is important. For example "Thing in the Ice" requires Sorceries & Instants, but highly favors the latter from a gameplay perspective. Myth pretty much work with any non-creature spell, thus we can play our trumps without worrying too much about synergy.

    I like to say that Myth gives 'face' to your gameplan - meaning each spell advance your gameplan. This means that a normally "useless" card for UW, like Spreading Seas, can serve a purpose with a Myth on the field. Finally, the spell heavy deck design makes you vulnerable to early creature aggression, and this is why I'm a fan of Lingering Souls and/or Timely Reinforcements in the build.

    3. The mana cost:

    This is, in my opinion, maybe the most overlooked aspect of Myth Realized that people fail to mention in discussions - it cost one single mana! I feel that most ignore this fact when they compare it to cards like “Thing in the Ice”, three drops or other high cost win conditions like Planeswalkers. There are no other threats in the UWBR color spectrum that can be deployed turn one. That being said Myth normally goes down t2 when we lead with Colonnade.

    Now, this is all good theory, but there are merits in the criticism mentioning Myth’s activation cost and the fact that it needs build-up. This is why the card can’t be your only win condition, nor should you design your deck to solely protect it. You need to be smart, know when to attack, and have enough game knowledge to anticipate what your opponent might have that can interact with it.

    4. Its role:

    The card is without a doubt a win condition, but it’s also a mana sink as the game progress. While the ability isn’t particularly interesting or cheap, the possibility to put a lore counter on a Myth at instant speed let us do something with our mana if the opponent doesn’t do anything worth interacting with. Other obvious traits like immunity to sorcery speed removal and sweepers are also a plus. One interesting aspect is that the card can give accidental information about the opponents hand – if they’re sandbagging cards or leaving mana open you should expect an answer to your Myth, and can act accordingly.

    ---

    Apart from this, the card is nothing more than a cheap beat stick. It has no evasion, however the UW ‘all-stars’ Supreme Verdict & Cryptic Command does a nice job “splitting oceans”. I can’t say that the myth-build is better than the traditional lists – ironically I think UW control might be one of my worse matchups. To end my post; I honestly believe that the card is worth exploring and I know that it’s a working threat in the modern format – how strong is yet to be seen.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Timely is indeed great alongside Myth. It just fits the strategy so well as the card won't do early blocks and doesn't count as a creature making it easy to get the full effect out of the reinforcements.

    I'd recommend testing a single Terminus in the list. It facilitate some great blow-outs for the strategy. I've had success with it.

    Also Narset is a card I've enjoyed as we naturally bring a high spell count to support Myth.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Great write-up! In my opinion a much needed update of the old thread. Nice to have a fresh point for further discussion.

    Also, nice to see a fellow Myth fan. I'm utilizing it myself, and honestly think it's an overlooked card. Personally I splash black for Lingering Souls which is a alongside the Myth. My deck plays & feels like "blue junk", I enjoy the more synergistic and proactive gameplay.

    http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mythic-command/
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    I agree that Halo is good, been working nicely thus far (I have one in the side). Considering adding one more.

    Tested versus UW Eldrazi yesterday and I'm a bit unsure how to really combat them. From the side they can add Disenchant and Stubborn Denial. The latter was a deciding factor in my matches - especially when you try to land a three - four cmc sideboard card on curve when they all ready is ahead on mana.

    Thus I'm not sold on damping matrix against UW Eldrazi. I think something like Pithing Needle would be more impactful if you play on curve.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    I tested a few games versus colorless eldrazi this weekend (2-2) - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mythic-command/. Last round in game four was tense. Faced a Sower with bSkull equipped. I had 2 life, though my field was a 12/12 myth and four Spirit tokens. Unfortunately Endbringer was cast and I was unable to answer, loosing to the "can't" block on myth and a Smasher through the tokens.

    Boarded inn, amongst other things, one copy of Ghostly Prison & Worship. Never saw the latter, but Prison was present and mvp. Also, I tested boarding inn Runed Halo & Extraction. When I saw it Halo saved me from Batterskulls naming germ, and extraction exiled all the temples one game - though it feels a bit conditional.

    The list I fought had 3 Batterskulls which are a pain to deal with. To the point where I wish I had one Disenchant in the sideboard - note that the "new" UW eldrazi has two-three in their side, allowing them to answer our enchantments.

    But honestly at this point I'm not sure if I'm going to bother testing more versus eldrazi as they play a completely different game.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    I'm playing 1 charm in the main - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mythic-command/

    It has been useful in some scenarios. Like topping a pia with a dark confidant on the board vs Jund. That being said I often find myself siding it out, but that's necessary not a bad thing. It's never a bad card which is nice.

    I'm interested in testing Dissolve or Detention Sphere in the slot.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Personally I like this list a lot http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-uw-control-23331#paper , it 5-0'ed a league 9 Feb. It have some resemblance to my own list and I agree with most of the card choices. Surgical Extraction in the side is spicy, and I'm going to test those out instead of my Mindcensors.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Quote from wpgstevo »
    I really think Myth realized is where control finishers want to be as a low investment option with huge growth potential. I could be wrong, but we'll find out soon!


    I agree. Being brewing with Myth since release and I think the card is overlooked. However I'm dipping into black for Lingering Souls and Truths. Personally I believe it's an different take on UW Control that needs it's own discussion - my goal is to finish the primer and post it here someday.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    With Twin and Bloom gone UW Control definitely gets a boost in relevance. As the sideboard now can be more streamlined to beat Tron & Affinity. I'm definitely consider upping my Stony Silence count, and packing spreading seas main board. Spellskite seems less relevant now as do dispel, but I'm really glad to be packing Lingering Souls & Myth Realized moving forward.

    However, one thing that worries me is that Tron now could up its "boil" count as a lot of their sideboard slots just got unlocked.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Quote from Trifas »

    The problem I see with Myth is the fact that it can be easily 1-for-1ed by many decks (not just those with Abrupt Decay, though AD is something we cannot stop). Lingering Souls, on the other hand, is a card that will often require a 2-for-1 if you don't want to get slowly killed by flying spirits.

    I'm not saying the card is necessarly junk, but in order to take the most out of it you would probably need to change the deck so much that you would start to take suboptimal decicions and make it more vulnerable against decks that can answer your main gameplan. I see Myth as a "White Delver". Delver dies to pretty much everything in the format. But it is so cheap and cost-efficient that by the time the opponent manages to kill it, it has already dealt enough damage for you to finish him with Bolts, Lavamancers or Young Pyromancer tokens. In a similar way, I can see a deck with Myth packing lots of Paths, Vapor Snags, Remands, Wrath effects and other things that will both grow your Myth and clear the way for him to attack. Question is: how a deck like this will perform against the most common decks in the format?


    This is true, it'll indeed be dealt with 1-for-1. Though I one aspect you seem to ignore is that the card doesn't die to common removal before you deliberately activates it (decay being the exception). Naturaly, being a control deck, I'd have counter spell backup before I attack meaning I decide when I want to fight over the Myth. This means that the opponent always has to consider it, which forces them to either hold up answers or ignore the threat. Because of this, Myth actually gives a surprising amount of free information about your opponents hand. There is also a point in it being a one drop, making almost every trade an even one-for-one. Also if it gets Pathed it would be mana neutral. However, black on white, it does die to removal with no relevant effect other than giving "face" to your control spells.

    I have to disagree here. I don't know if you saw my list, but I absolutely don't feel that I've taken sub-optimal decisions for my deck. So far, it actually performs quite well against the most common decks in the format - however there is still testing to be done (my time is a bit limited). But I've learned one thing playing Myth, and that is that it absolutely isn't an agro nor tempo card. It's too much of a tempo loss, and I believe the only decks that can reliably utilize the card are control decks with natural card draw. This includes Jeskai, Esper and UW.


    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] UW Control
    Quote from TheAller »
    No, I don’t have experience with it. So you’re certainly more qualified than myself to talk about it. The thing is, luckily, you don’t need to test every single card to know whether it’s good or not.


    I see. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess you don’t need to test every single card, but then again you shouldn’t be too quick to judge a card you’ve never tested. I honestly recommend reading this article.

    Quote from TheAller »
    This is a card I know for sure wouldn’t be good in my UW Control. As you say, and I agree with you here, it’s for draw-go versions only. The problem is draw-go versions aren’t really viable as they lose to Tron and now, to the new Eldrazi deck. Not to mention they have a harder time dealing with some other midrange and control decks, as the Wall-Finks-Resto mechanic is great at generating card advantage.


    Indeed. I really have to stress that you simply cannot slot Myth into UW Midrange and expect it to work. It requires some more defining deck changes, almost at the same axis as Emira Control. However your only option isn’t to be draw go. As you briefly saw, I run the full playset of Souls & Visions, alongside sweepers and walkers. Like, Narset becomes a great due to the spell density Myth facilitates. Context is important - the environment the card is ‘living’ in.

    Tron is, and will always be a difficult matchup for UW Control. No matter the version. However, I've managed to make it feel like a 40/50 matchup which is enough for me. Here, Myth becomes invaluable as it establishes a t1 threat, allowing you to focus on disruption at the crucial turn 3-4. Most of my wins comes from a properly stalled game, and a huge Myth (or Narset / Tamiyo ultimate). Playing Walls and Finks against Tron just felt bad, to the point where I decided to test something new. I’m excited to pitch the list against Eldrazi and see how it fares.

    Quote from TheAller »
    But even in a draw-go version, which again I don't think is viable in current Modern, I think there are far better options than Myth. Namely: planeswalkers, flash creatures, Colonnades and Ojutai. Myth needs interaction with other cards to work and is very easy to destroy. It way harder to get rid of planeswalkers, and Cliques, Snaps and Restos do other things apart from being able to attack. This is not to mention Myth is slow and can be chumpblocked all day.


    You’re absolutely right that there are other good options, but most of them are 3 CMC and above. None which are a one drop (if we exclude the auto-include Colonnades). With most UW lists you’ll normally have make a decision before establishing a serious threat: “Do I hold represent disruption, or do go for pressure?” Restoration Angle and Snapcaster being the exception.

    I believe this is the important part, Myth doesn’t need “interaction” with other cards, it triggers on cast, by the cards I’m already playing. Nowhere in my list do I have a unique card just for Myth alone! That’s the beauty of it, the card doesn’t requires any specific card to work - just that you pack a higher noncreature count.

    Quote from TheAller »
    Looking quickly into your list (I’m a bit in a hurry right now), it looks like you don’t even really need Myth. You have Souls, Clique, Snaps, Colonnades and a couple Planeswalkers. Why even bothering playing this card? You could use those slots for example to run Mana Leak, which is a big absent in your list, or increase the number of Snapcasters and Cliques.


    I like to say that Myth gives “face” to an already strong spell-suite, most notably Cryptic Command and Supreme Verdict (and Souls). It rewards an interactive game plan, and I believe it focus the deck strategy more than the normal Control/Midrange hybrid. Personally I don’t find Wall of Omens, Kitchen Finks and Resto Angle as an appealing control strategy – to me its midrange with counter- instead of kill-spells. However I’m not saying it’s bad, just that I think that Myth promotes a more streamlined plan. It comes down early, meaning I don’t have worry about establishing a threat late game. Lingering Souls urge the opponent to go wide and act as defense, while Verdict sweeps the board (leaving Myth unharmed). Cryptic Command can tap blocker for a clean swing if needed, and the walkers provide additional value. I don’t see why both strategies can’t co-exist?

    If you look again I do run the standard counterspell numbers. It’s just that I’ve been testing a configuration – which I’ve begun to love. Normally it’d be the 3 leak / 2 remand split. But instead I’ve opted for a singleton package with Negate, Logic Knot, Condescend, Remand and Shadow of Doubt. Also I don’t think it’s right to run more than one Clique in the 75. The same goes for Snapcaster – more than two copies just seems unnecessary when we don’t have access to red's reach.


    Quote from Trifas »
    Usually a control deck wants a very resilient threat as a win-con (or something that grants us card advantage). Myth can only attack (or block) and does nothing else for us. I guess its place is something like a UW Tempo deck, but I'm not sure about how viable this would be.

    That being said, if the card is working for you, then keep going. But be careful with the trap of "It won me many games", cause maybe there's another card that would make your deck win many more, even not being the card that dealt the most damage to the opponent.


    This is true, though I don’t really think that the UW “Control” list that plays Walls, Finks, Restoration Angle etc. is a true control deck. It plays more like a midrange deck – in my opinion (I used to play it).

    My idea was to bring a set of diverse threats to the table – Myth, Souls & Colonnades. These cards seek to attack from separate angles, thus making no single answer good against all of them. Also, I believe the reason why control decks want a resilient threat is because they’re “sacrificing the control” in order to establish the threat – this because these traditional threats are 5-6 mana bombs. Myth however isn’t a six drop, it’s a one drop that grows as the game progresses. My optimal line is T1 Colonnade, T2 Myth + Visions / Snare, T3 Souls / Interaction / Cantrips / Myth activation, T4 Cryptic Command / Supreme Verdict / Narset etc. At T5 can have a myth ranging from 3/3 to 8/8. Now, if I get careless and getting my Myth killed what did I really lose? Sure, I’m down 1 card that costed me 1 mana. But tell me, was any play pre T2 unnecessary or just there for growing the Myth? I was playing a solid control game, however with the opportunity to attack for 8 at turn 5..

    Quote from Keezy23 »

    [...] When you play a card like myth, there is less space for stuff like RIP, stony, dispel, clique, mindcensor, etc and the draw power to find these cards.


    Where on earth does this statement come from? That makes no sense. If anything, Myth could release space for these cards! Unless you mean that you would slot the Myths alongside the normal creature suite (walls, finks, resto) or in the sideboard(?). If so, I can understand the problem. However, that shouldn't be the idea in the first place - you'll need to do some adjustments for Myth to work. This is like saying Restoration Angle restricts you from playing those cards because you need to add Wall of Omens... At the very least, I have no problems playing those cards you're mentioning when the list is taking Myth into account.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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