I see that Arrogant Bloodlord is starting to get some mentions in the wings. Which I find interesting, because I thought I was honestly the only one silly enough to test it.
In brief, I have been getting positive results from AB over the last month, but it's not for everyone, and it's not for every matchup. The obvious advantage to it is the power/cost ratio, but it's also a 3-drop. That means it fills out a gap where you'd normally play, say, a Specter. Specter is a great card in some situations, but if you want to go a more aggressive route where you put down actual threats on turn 2-4, AB is a much bolder 3-drop. Using it instead of Specter, it's very likely that you'll have a 2/1 pumpable, a 4/4 and a 6/6 flier down on turn 4, each of which can swing for massive damage even if one or two of the others is removed. One of the most important things about AB is that it's outside Bolt range, making it an extremely efficient card against Valakut.
Now, as for the drawback. I'm not going to list all the < 2 power cards that'll auto-kill AB, because there are quite a lot. However, a couple of things to keep in mind:
- If you play Gatekeeper (which you do) and Skinrender (which you might), you're already playing a build which is about clearing the board while maintaining pressure. AB plays into this, taking advantage of Skinrender which hits the turn that AB is ready to swing.
- Remember that AB doesn't just die to a < 2 power creature, it trades. Many of the creatures that it trades with are creatures you don't mind trading with, such as the elf leveler or even Geopede.
- Most of the creatures that trade with AB are the ones that you can and will remove with IoK, further ensuring that AB will swing at least a couple of times before trading with a big removal spell or a creature.
- Finally, AB is a card you'll often be considering for sideboarding. Fortunately, the decks you want to SB it out against are also the decks that you have some of the best SB cards against. I normally take out AB against stuff like WW Quest or Kuldotha, happily replacing it with Marsh Casualties which wrecks their decks.
Yeah, I second that. You two are equally ridiculous listening to. I'd happily be a user of a site with this type of purpose, but knowing that both are apparently being developed by 16-year-olds who think that anyone cares about email evidence of this or that - well, it just... turns me off, you know?
When one of you can come back, maintain a professional facade even in the face of being accused and mocked by the other party, well congratulations, you'll have demonstrated that you're above the level of involving the public in whatever trivial, meaningless feuds you think they care about.
I notice a lack of Mind Sludge. There's no excuse for that. It it literally the ONLY reason to play Mono-Black Control (If not for Sludge, there is no argument against splashing).
See, that was probably the general mindset like a month ago, but we've become a bit wiser since then.
Drana is facking terrible, dies to grasp and flame slash, is a 4/4 for 6 mana
Drana doesn't cost 6. She costs 5. Since most cards, if reduced by 1 mana cc, should be reevaluated, maybe you'd like to take a second look at her now that you know?
No, she doesn't give card advantage when she hits, but she's almost sure to give card advantage the turn after. She's sure to be a 7-power flier attacking on turn 6, possibly killing a creature when she does. Think about it.
She's not good versus everything. She's certainly not terrible either.
I think that about covers all the sideboarding I did. I am not sure what the last 2 spots will be but it could be something to the effect of 2xNihil Spell bomb but i am open too suggestions there. Hope that helped.
I prefer Bojuka Bog over the spellbomb. This is one of those extremely tight decks, and the possibility of using a freakin' land slot to wreck certain decks is just too good to pass up. You don't get the cantrip effect, but you don't thin your threat density either. Pyromancer's Ascension, Sun Titan recursion, Vengevine... wrecked by a land. It's beautiful, really.
BenUffindell,
I appreciate the time you took writing that up, but that seems exactly like the deck I've been playing since Scars came out and which has been discussed ad infinitum in the thread already. I'm not sure what you mean when you say this is the direction you think the deck should move in, because it seems like it's the very starting point for discussion of the B/G/U variant. In fact, stuff like Sign in Blood was an attempt at moving away from this original deck which didn't seem to fare very well in competitive play beyond the occasional FNM.
I'd personally rather not go back there, but I can understand why the combination of infect creatures with Vines and Distortion Strike is still appealing to many. Right now, I'm moving away from that and going for more control, because frankly, the whole all-in approach isn't working out for me. So it's Sign in Blood, Grasp of Darkness, etc. - probably even trying out Mono-black with Virulent Swipes, Vampire's Bite and Mind Sludge at some point.
13 creatures may seem in the low end for a deck with so many creature-based spells (Livewire Lash, Vines and Groundswell - actually only 10 total), but the SiB's and the recursion helps compensate for that. Still, I'll probably go up to 15 creatures if some of the non-creature cards start feeling suboptimal. Getting some good results so far though, going 60-40 in MTGO's 2-player constructed tournaments (over 23 games, so take that with a grain of salt for now). Still, having discovered the awesomeness of SiB in the deck, I wanted to try and take that further with Mind Rot and now Soul Stair Expedition.
Having decided against BoP for my build, I've been on the lookout for something else to fill out the 1-spot - and I came upon Soul Stair Expedition. Has anyone tried that in any of your builds? At first glance, it seems very promising. Essentially, it's a 1-drop (which doesn't clash with any of your creatures) that'll count as +2 infect creatures later on if the opponent puts up resistance. One of those creatures might even be Corpse Cur or Putrefax for extra awesomeness. Any thoughts or experiences?
At this point, a lot of people are just posting decklists in this thread, asking for feedback without explaining their choices (and most decklist differences are just a matter of Skittles vs. Putrefax or Groundswell vs. Prey's Vengeance, etc.) It doesn't seem like we're evolving anywhere that way. 80% of the core deck for each color combination has been established, so I'd like to hear some more battlefield reports about non-standard card choices and succesful/discarded ideas.
A couple of my own observations:
- Sign In Blood is really that good. I'm always happy to draw it. In this deck, it converts straight into pressure which usually makes sure that the 2 life drawback never becomes relevant, as you are on the dealing end.
- I used to play suicide black back in the day - a la 'drop your hand and hope for the best'. If your initial attack didn't win you the game, there was no way you'd win at all. While I'm doing an aggro infect build, there are just so many tools for this deck that convert into 'staying power' and card advantage for this deck. My 'staying power' cards are:
- Sign in Blood, as mentioned. Great, great card.
- I'm also running Mimic Vat like a lot of other people, and it really works. The beautiful thing is that even if you're in a game state where you're using the Vat to create chump blockers, their Infect ability means that you'll slowly be turning the game around instead of just hoping to draw something awesome.
- Adventuring Gear. One of those cards that don't feel like card advantage per se, but it creates an effect for you each turn that might as well have been a Giant Growth in your hand. Even though I'm playing B/G, I'm running Misty Rainforests in addition to Verdant Catacombs just for this guy, so I'm often casting Groundswells straight off of my lands using this cool little gadget. At 1cc for casting as well as activation, it's just perfect for my curve, much better than Trusty Machete which has a similar, more stable effect, but which I can't equip without losing temp.
- There's a lot of uncertainty about Vector Asp. I'm having a ball with this little dude, even though I only put him in as a casual experiment. Apart from actually enabling the rare T3 win (Groundswell T2, Vines or Groundswell on T3), he just squeezes right into the curve. He's not there to eat up a black mana and attack on turn 2; he's there to be the second or third attacker on turn 4, ensuring that one creature will get through with a pump spell on it.
The cards that haven't worked as well as expected so far are:
- Hand of the Praetors. Quite surprisingly, as this is probably the most 'obvious' include in the deck, and I'm guessing it's a core card in most decklists in the thread. Can anyone tell me what their experience with the card is? Running through his abilities, the +1/+1 bonus never seems to change the game state, as I usually only have 1 surviving infect creature down when HotP hits the board. The second ability, dealing a poison counter for each infect creature does give me some reach and has won me a couple of games, but the fact is that this is an ability that starts adding single poison counters, one at a time, from turn 5. I'm actually not entirely sold on this dude, weird as it may seem. Any feedback on this?
- Livewire Lash. Don't get me wrong, this card does win games, but other times it's a dead card. If your opponent is into direct damage or even bounce, it can get you there. However, I'm thinking about relegating it to the sideboard, since it's a lot less effective against a deck like U/W Control that block you, DoJ you and Journey you instead of targeting a creature with an actual spell. It *is* pretty cool to put LL on your 1/1 infector, Groundswell it and thus deal 9 counters in one swoop, but that requires you to have a creature and a pump spell to go with your LL. Not sure this is MD material for me.
First of all, never make a deck of more than 60 cards unless there's a really special reason to do it. It lessens the chance of drawing the cards you really need, and makes the deck less consistent.
Secondly, a card like the Invisionmancer doesn't work here. Sure, he makes an infect creature unblockable for 1 turn, but he's useless himself after that, since he doesn't deal damage in poison counters - so he's basically a 0/2 creature in this deck. If you want to make your creatures unblockable, rely on Distortion Strike or even stuff that grants flying.
Thirdly, take a look at the various infect threads around here, such as this one, and sort out which ideas work for you.
just thought i should correct you that it doesnt work this way. no matter how many creatures block your dude, you only get two cards out of it. it doesnt read "for each creature blocking equipped creature draw two cards".
At this point, it's not so much a matter of 'what could work in the deck', but 'what are you going to take out for it'. I'm down to simply having infect creatures and pump spells (including Livewire Lash). I also want to play 4 duress though, but I'm already out of space as it is. Infiltration Lens is definitely not going to cut it when fighting Livewire and other good cards for the slots.
Aw, bombo. Guess spell or -ability- would be too crazy on lash. Quest still works for what you're trying to accomplish though. Huge creature with infest early with a buff that sticks around to get the job done
How will you get your flying infect creature to deal combat damage to his creature so it can become 5/5?
In brief, I have been getting positive results from AB over the last month, but it's not for everyone, and it's not for every matchup. The obvious advantage to it is the power/cost ratio, but it's also a 3-drop. That means it fills out a gap where you'd normally play, say, a Specter. Specter is a great card in some situations, but if you want to go a more aggressive route where you put down actual threats on turn 2-4, AB is a much bolder 3-drop. Using it instead of Specter, it's very likely that you'll have a 2/1 pumpable, a 4/4 and a 6/6 flier down on turn 4, each of which can swing for massive damage even if one or two of the others is removed. One of the most important things about AB is that it's outside Bolt range, making it an extremely efficient card against Valakut.
Now, as for the drawback. I'm not going to list all the < 2 power cards that'll auto-kill AB, because there are quite a lot. However, a couple of things to keep in mind:
- If you play Gatekeeper (which you do) and Skinrender (which you might), you're already playing a build which is about clearing the board while maintaining pressure. AB plays into this, taking advantage of Skinrender which hits the turn that AB is ready to swing.
- Remember that AB doesn't just die to a < 2 power creature, it trades. Many of the creatures that it trades with are creatures you don't mind trading with, such as the elf leveler or even Geopede.
- Most of the creatures that trade with AB are the ones that you can and will remove with IoK, further ensuring that AB will swing at least a couple of times before trading with a big removal spell or a creature.
- Finally, AB is a card you'll often be considering for sideboarding. Fortunately, the decks you want to SB it out against are also the decks that you have some of the best SB cards against. I normally take out AB against stuff like WW Quest or Kuldotha, happily replacing it with Marsh Casualties which wrecks their decks.
When one of you can come back, maintain a professional facade even in the face of being accused and mocked by the other party, well congratulations, you'll have demonstrated that you're above the level of involving the public in whatever trivial, meaningless feuds you think they care about.
See, that was probably the general mindset like a month ago, but we've become a bit wiser since then.
Drana doesn't cost 6. She costs 5. Since most cards, if reduced by 1 mana cc, should be reevaluated, maybe you'd like to take a second look at her now that you know?
No, she doesn't give card advantage when she hits, but she's almost sure to give card advantage the turn after. She's sure to be a 7-power flier attacking on turn 6, possibly killing a creature when she does. Think about it.
She's not good versus everything. She's certainly not terrible either.
I prefer Bojuka Bog over the spellbomb. This is one of those extremely tight decks, and the possibility of using a freakin' land slot to wreck certain decks is just too good to pass up. You don't get the cantrip effect, but you don't thin your threat density either. Pyromancer's Ascension, Sun Titan recursion, Vengevine... wrecked by a land. It's beautiful, really.
I appreciate the time you took writing that up, but that seems exactly like the deck I've been playing since Scars came out and which has been discussed ad infinitum in the thread already. I'm not sure what you mean when you say this is the direction you think the deck should move in, because it seems like it's the very starting point for discussion of the B/G/U variant. In fact, stuff like Sign in Blood was an attempt at moving away from this original deck which didn't seem to fare very well in competitive play beyond the occasional FNM.
I'd personally rather not go back there, but I can understand why the combination of infect creatures with Vines and Distortion Strike is still appealing to many. Right now, I'm moving away from that and going for more control, because frankly, the whole all-in approach isn't working out for me. So it's Sign in Blood, Grasp of Darkness, etc. - probably even trying out Mono-black with Virulent Swipes, Vampire's Bite and Mind Sludge at some point.
I am using Corpse Cur.
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Plague Stinger
3 Corpse Cur
2 Skithiryx
3 Soul Stair Expedition
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Groundswell
4 Duress
3 Livewire Lash
4 Sign in Blood
3 Mind Rot
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Swamp
8 Forest
13 creatures may seem in the low end for a deck with so many creature-based spells (Livewire Lash, Vines and Groundswell - actually only 10 total), but the SiB's and the recursion helps compensate for that. Still, I'll probably go up to 15 creatures if some of the non-creature cards start feeling suboptimal. Getting some good results so far though, going 60-40 in MTGO's 2-player constructed tournaments (over 23 games, so take that with a grain of salt for now). Still, having discovered the awesomeness of SiB in the deck, I wanted to try and take that further with Mind Rot and now Soul Stair Expedition.
A couple of my own observations:
- Sign In Blood is really that good. I'm always happy to draw it. In this deck, it converts straight into pressure which usually makes sure that the 2 life drawback never becomes relevant, as you are on the dealing end.
- I used to play suicide black back in the day - a la 'drop your hand and hope for the best'. If your initial attack didn't win you the game, there was no way you'd win at all. While I'm doing an aggro infect build, there are just so many tools for this deck that convert into 'staying power' and card advantage for this deck. My 'staying power' cards are:
- Sign in Blood, as mentioned. Great, great card.
- I'm also running Mimic Vat like a lot of other people, and it really works. The beautiful thing is that even if you're in a game state where you're using the Vat to create chump blockers, their Infect ability means that you'll slowly be turning the game around instead of just hoping to draw something awesome.
- Adventuring Gear. One of those cards that don't feel like card advantage per se, but it creates an effect for you each turn that might as well have been a Giant Growth in your hand. Even though I'm playing B/G, I'm running Misty Rainforests in addition to Verdant Catacombs just for this guy, so I'm often casting Groundswells straight off of my lands using this cool little gadget. At 1cc for casting as well as activation, it's just perfect for my curve, much better than Trusty Machete which has a similar, more stable effect, but which I can't equip without losing temp.
- There's a lot of uncertainty about Vector Asp. I'm having a ball with this little dude, even though I only put him in as a casual experiment. Apart from actually enabling the rare T3 win (Groundswell T2, Vines or Groundswell on T3), he just squeezes right into the curve. He's not there to eat up a black mana and attack on turn 2; he's there to be the second or third attacker on turn 4, ensuring that one creature will get through with a pump spell on it.
The cards that haven't worked as well as expected so far are:
- Hand of the Praetors. Quite surprisingly, as this is probably the most 'obvious' include in the deck, and I'm guessing it's a core card in most decklists in the thread. Can anyone tell me what their experience with the card is? Running through his abilities, the +1/+1 bonus never seems to change the game state, as I usually only have 1 surviving infect creature down when HotP hits the board. The second ability, dealing a poison counter for each infect creature does give me some reach and has won me a couple of games, but the fact is that this is an ability that starts adding single poison counters, one at a time, from turn 5. I'm actually not entirely sold on this dude, weird as it may seem. Any feedback on this?
- Livewire Lash. Don't get me wrong, this card does win games, but other times it's a dead card. If your opponent is into direct damage or even bounce, it can get you there. However, I'm thinking about relegating it to the sideboard, since it's a lot less effective against a deck like U/W Control that block you, DoJ you and Journey you instead of targeting a creature with an actual spell. It *is* pretty cool to put LL on your 1/1 infector, Groundswell it and thus deal 9 counters in one swoop, but that requires you to have a creature and a pump spell to go with your LL. Not sure this is MD material for me.
Thoughts?
Secondly, a card like the Invisionmancer doesn't work here. Sure, he makes an infect creature unblockable for 1 turn, but he's useless himself after that, since he doesn't deal damage in poison counters - so he's basically a 0/2 creature in this deck. If you want to make your creatures unblockable, rely on Distortion Strike or even stuff that grants flying.
Thirdly, take a look at the various infect threads around here, such as this one, and sort out which ideas work for you.
Read the post.
Read the rules.
That's not what all the other rules gurus say.
How will you get your flying infect creature to deal combat damage to his creature so it can become 5/5?