If you each discarded a card that might not be broken (in a general sense; of course it would be for our deck). You could also maybe make it a sorcery.
Edit: here you go
Love it! Send that to MaRo! Let's get it that in Huey.
For sweepers, it's Drown in Sorrow all day (even though I only run one in my 75). On par with Sorrow, for me, is Damnation (again, a singleton in the 75). I think there are plenty of good arguments for damnation, but Damnation works really well in a deck that is 8 Rack Attack. The casting of my creatures tends to elicit a greater board response from my opponent (they can't necessarily shore up a hand when they have a Dark Confidant or Gravecrawler or Mutavault running at their face. It seems counterintuitive to be casting a Wrath of God AND creatures. Shoosh, who knows, maybe it is. BUT, the Bobs are drawing me cards into and beyond this card, the Crawling Dead can return, and it IS only one card....which can be commonly create a GG scenario. I certainly don't fear the 4 CMC which folks have said is highly prohibitive.
As for Smother, Victim of the Night, Slaughter Pact, and Doom Blade for spot removal? Take your pick. I am a fan of Smother, despite I_Am_Outerspace astute observation that Smother doesn't hit Kiki/Resto, Linvala, Wurmcoil, or Primeval. I don't sweat these cards too much. Primeval Titan and Wurmcoil Engine most likely comprise no more than 1/2 a dozen creature slots in an opponent's deck, i.e. Kangaroo and Tron don't run a lot of creatures. So, I think 4 Bridges and 4 Liliana can cover these kackalacks just fine. Linvala, Keeper of the Peace is of no particular threat to us. Kiki and Angel? That is a concern for Smother. For that, and other reasons all together, I go with Slaughter Pact.
The creature removal portion of our deck is the least elegant element of our creation. The synergies of Liliana and Bridge and Rack and Discard create a symphony of destruction. I'd love to lose the creature removal as it just feels like an ugly piece of scotch tape needed to secure an otherwise perfectly wrapped gift. At this point, I'm down to one Slaughter Pact main deck, but I like the 8 Rack variant that is running 3 Spellskite and 3 Bitterblossom (I think it's Willjcus') that has no main deck removal cards. The latest version of my 8 Rack Attack deck borrows from that discipline.
Symphony of Destruction BB
Instant
Destroy target creature. That creature's controller discards a card. "Rack wins."
That would end the kill spell debate. haha Before I possibly get a beatdown for this post, this was very tongue-in-cheek and I realize it's OP.
This is my first time posting in this forum. I love Black and when I made the switch to Modern MB Devotion was one of the decks that beckoned me to play it. Mine has a little twist with the addition of Birthing Pod. It was a lot of fun and maybe it'll help with ideas of where you can go with the deck.
Darkblast > Drown in Sorrow > Bile Blight (in my opinion)
I agree Darkblast is one of the top spots for removal for 8rack, but I am not a fan of either Drown in Sorrow orBile Blight. Pryoclasm is sometimes not enough, Anger of the Gods can be too little too late vs decks like Aura Hexproof and Affinity... and both of these cards are more efficient than Drown in Sorrow. I think if I was going to use any removal maindeck other than Darkblast it would probably be Smother>Doom Blade>Victim of Night.
When it comes to main deck removal I would probably go victim of night>smother>doom blade. First, although Black seems to be the weakest of the 5 colors atm in Modern there are still some formidable creatures that are seeing play like phyrexian obliterator and dark confidant. Although Black Devotion and BG(x) are not super prevalent in most metas they still make Doom Blade a dead card or near dead, geralf's messenger nixes both VoN and DB but Gerry is probably best answered by ensnaring bridge, because either way he'd need to eat 2 removal spells. Smother cant hit Kiki, Resto, Linvala, Wurmcoil, Primeval. There are probably a few other 4+ CMC creatures I'm not coming up with right now. But there are more relavent creatures that are 4cmc + than creatures that are zombies, werewolves, or vampires.
Hi all. Very much liking this thread, and loving my first forays into Modern with the 8-Rack deck. Feels very much like old school black - crafty and underhand! I am very, very new to Modern, so I have a question. I played years ago, and then again very recently, so Modern is the type I know least about - it literally picks up where I left off. My question is whetehr or not there is an obvious reason that Instant speed discard does not feature heavily in these builds? My (out of date) instincts tell me to expect things like 4x Funeral Charm just so that we can strike in the draw phase. Surely that is advantageous once we all get down to top-decking?
Thanks in advance.
One problem is that 8rack has such a tight decklist. There are very few flex spots. The issue with charm is the opponent gets to choose the card which makes it bad early in the game. The other opponent choice discard spells are far superior. Raven's crime can be abused and Wrench Mind creates instant card advantage (most of the time). And although charm can even act as removal there are still better options like Victim of Night and Slaughter Pact. Look above at destroyermaker's list, That is as sound of a 60 as you can get. The biggest flex spot in the deck is Bitterblossom vs Dark Confidant vs Spellskite. Too much tinkering can hurt the deck's power.
Been meaning to bring this up for awhile: I've been testing Darkblast sideboard for some time now; it's quickly made its way into the deck as a mainstay for me, replacing Drown in Sorrow. I've hated Drown since I started using it because of the 3cmc. It's not a bad card and is sometimes a blowout, but it's extremely awkward when usually we don't want to side out Bridge or Lily, and so our already very tight curve now has 11 3 drops. Darkblast is great because, since it recurs, often I will side out Bridge for it (Bitterblossom is also common), and create the opposite effect (lower curve).
The other reason it's great is something that might not be apparent at first: like Dakmor, when we have Buried Ruin out, it can dig for a Bridge or a Rack when we need it, and even more efficiently than Dakmor. It's not unlike using Ponder every turn. I also think we need to use Buried Ruin for this reason (besides the fact redundancy is good).
When you're behind, Drown can be better because it helps you catch up, but Darkblast helps you stay ahead/at parity and can sometimes help you catch up, so more often it's the better card, in my opinion.
For anyone that doesn't know, Blast can kill 2 toughness creatures when you cast it during your upkeep then dredge it.
My list is below, for reference. It might be correct to use 4x Ruin 2x Dakmor but I've been feeling more comfortable with this, personally. It's mostly for mana reasons but it needs to be fairly late game for us to use Ruin, so I don't necessarily want to see it too often anyway.
I really like your build. In my opinion, it's the most ideal for proactive 8rack. I would have a different sideboard, but that's just a meta thing.This is the 60 I would like to play, but without BB it's impossible. So I use Mutavault instead of Buried Ruin, and cant quite get the same value out of Darkblast (a card I have really liked in the sideboard).
I have found Darkslick Shores to be a good addition. It comes down untapped on all of the important turns 1 through 3, and saving the 2 life here and there from Spellskite's ability can make a difference. Like in a scenario I had last night. I had Darkslick, Ensnaring Bridge, 2 racks, and Spellskite on the board and my life at 1 against Merfolk. He "couldn't" target Ensnaring Bridge with the Steel Sabotage in his hand because I could just redirect it to Spellskite without paying 2 life, and so on his next turn I won.:) It's basically a small addition that for the most part has small upside but no downside.
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wrench Mind
3x Victim of Night
4x Dark Confidant (Waste Not)
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Mutavault
14x Swamp
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x The Rack
Sideboard (15)
2x Bile Blight
2x Pithing Needle
2x Drown in Sorrow
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Spellskite
4x Surgical Extraction
I only "splash" for Spellskite. Darkslick seems like a simple and unabrasive addition that can save some life. I havent tested Waste Not against all the big meta decks, yet. But against decks like Affinity, Burn, Zoo I have/would take Waste Not out for Spellskite/removal/LoS, whichever is most appropriate. It would probably be what comes out against tron for extraction, but Victim would also come out.
I don't run Urborg simply because I dont have them anymore and they are now $40.
Question. How have people faired against Living End? I have never personally played the archetype but it seems like it has to be one of our hardest match ups. Or am I wrong?
EDIT: I am also constantly putting Smallpox in and out of the deck. I love it, it's just so difficult finding the perfect build. The land aspect of it alone can hit some decks so hard.
If you have played 8rack many many games it's really not confusing. Again IF you have played 8rack a lot you will have run across this scenario many times...
You have a bridge, racks and a Waste Not on the field 3 lands and no cards in hand and a Raven's Crime in the GY. Your opponent has a couple creatures say a couple 1/1 Sodlier Tokens with 3 cards in hand. You draw a land and retrace Raven's Crime...
1) They discard a land giving you BB which you have no use for. (FYI good players will hold lands most often when attempting to counteract The Rack and about half of our discard doesn't hit land.)
2) They discard a creature and you get a 2/2 Zombie that can't attack, and also doesn't block their Tokens that also can't attack.
3) They discard a nonland noncreature and you draw a card, maybe a Bridge or Liliana that you now can't play with 2 mana available, and now they can attack you next turn.
All 3 scenarios your waste not, was underwhelming.
If you haven't ran into a situation where you have a rack and bridge and are in topdeck mode you haven't played 8rack very much. Give it a little more time and you will see how this makes Waste Not, kind of just a Waste.
Also in this scenario if Waste Not was Bitterblossom or Dark Confidant (the cards most people are saying they will take out for Waste Not) either card would be way better.
I don't even know what to say to the suggestion that Waste Not is the answer to Tron...
I feel like I'm missing something. How is Bob *way better* in this scenario? He will gather cards EVERY turn no matter what, where Waste Not *might* draw. Bob can't attack with his 2 power like the zombie(s). And Bob will drain your life while your opponent attempts to hold onto cards to prevent damage from the racks.
I definitely see an argument for Bitterblossom since you draw the card for turn, attack, play whatever card you drew.
You gave just one scenario of an infinite number of possibilities. But Waste Not can steal games without even a "nuts draw", with all the 4-ofs in 8rack it's not that unsual to get a great opener with it. And I'll make a scenario of my own that isnt even close to Christmasland. Opening hand Thoughtseize, WN, 3x Swamp, Ravens crime, Rack. Not a nuts draw by any means. Thoutseize turn 1 and determine if WN is a good play t2 or later. If it is good for turn 2 you play WN. Turn 3 you Raven's Crime at least twice giving you 2 triggers. This early in the game with cards in your hand do they dump two land and give you BBBB or 1 land for BB to work with? Tough to say, but for a lot of decks lands are absolutely crucial turns 1-3. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to think at this point you could be having your opponent discard 2-4 cards on turn 3. And I never even mention the turn 2 and 3 draws and already this hand seems to be pretty formidable. And sure there are plenty of ways you could counter that scenario and how it could go poorly, but I could just as easily counterback and add to how this scenario could be back-breaking to the opponent.
I think Waste Not needs a lot more testing before just being casted out. Right now I've liked it better than Bob. I dont have Bitterblossoms so that isnt an option in my 8rack. If after extensive testing Waste Not proves to be "a waste", I'll personally move towards Spellskite main board.
The idea of waste not is a nonbo. It either adds mana to cast spells that we probably dont have in our hand. It lets us draw cards that we dont want in our hand thanks to ensnaring bridge. It gives us zombies that most likely cant attack thanks to ensnaring bridge and cant block non attacking creatures.
Situationally its ok, i like it as a sideboard if your group has a living end player but even that isnt that good. It looks great, but it doesnt do what our deck is supposed to do. 8rack stops both of the players from having a hand, and a board that doesnt move while the rack slowly kills them. Waste not does very minimal to do this.
Have you actually tested it? Or just making assumptions?
Sure Bridge and Waste Not can "nonbo", but so can Bob and Bridge or Manlands and Bridge and plenty of people play those in 8rack. Bob, Bitterblossom, and Waste Not all have pros and cons. One difference is that Waste Not can do a lot of things the others do but without lost of life.
Merfolk should be playing remand and spreading seas both help them dig for answers and spreading seas is often the downfall of many people I play as my merfolk just landwalk all over them. 2/2 zombies don't block landwalkers very well.
Waste Not seems absolutely Flying Speghetti Monster awful vs affinity. They empty their hand faster than any other deck, and Waste Not only interacts when they discard. You would have to be using suboptimal discard spells like Funeral Charm to even touch their hand after a few turns.
I did a bunch of testing with Waste Not proxied and sure there was a few times I got to Inquisition turn 1, Waste Not turn 2, then Wistful Thinking turn 3 and just go nuts. But that was maybe 1 in ten games, the rest of the time it was either an awful top deck, or my opening Inquisition/Thoughtseize/Gitaxtian Probe revieled I need to hit their hand again, ASAP before dropping Waste Not, making it a pretty bad card in my hand again.
Although I have humored the idea of using cards like Vapor SnagEchoing Truth, etc after you drop a Waste Not, then follow both up with removal on your turn and EoT bouncing stuff to their hand. That is with splash blue for Wistful Thinking, Spellskite and 2 Gitaxian Probe.
Yeah, spreading seas is why ensnaring bridge isn't an auto win against Merfolk. Two of my three swamps had been turned to Islands in one game against him, and cards started getting stuck in my hand, and I lost that one.
Yeah, I am sure Waste Not will do nothing against Affinity, like Wrench Mind. Affinity can be just a tough match up for 8rack anyways regardless of the build because it can swing through ensnaring bridge. Obviously, those examples I gave are Magical dreams everyone has with cards like Waste Not. There were times of course when Waste Not was bad or only okay, and it needs more playtesting against more of the top meta decks, but I'm loving its potential.
Spreading Seas has no effect on Ensnaring Bridge. I was talking about 2/2 Zombie tokens from Waste Not vs Merfolk. Most of the time they will have islandwalk and give you an island a good portion of the time. Ensnaring Bridge is fantastic vs merfolk... game 1, if it's not countered.
Oh yeah, I am defintely aware of how good Ensnaring Bridge is vs Merfolk (especially game 1), but it doesnt just end the game. What I was referring to was a game against my friend where I had 3 swamps and he Spreading Seas 2 of them. I started drawing an abundance of double black costing spells (Liliana's, Wrench Minds, and Victim of Nights) without seeing another Swamp, so his Merfolk were able to attack eventually. And the other game where i referred to zombies as "all-stars", was a game when he saw only one Spreading Sea, but I Smallpoxed and sac'd my "Island". So his creatures never had Islandwalk the rest of the game.
idk about "almost never". If you have thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek on t1 you can make an informed decision. And if you see the potential to combo off t3 then you probably should against some decks. I didn't always drop it turn 2 if I knew I had to be more proactive. I found that Turn 2 waste not into a turn 3 resolved lili really forces your opponent to think hard about what they discard.
EDIT: There were a lot of times I'd play it turn 3 with a non-Wrench mind discard card in my hand.
Merfolk should be playing remand and spreading seas both help them dig for answers and spreading seas is often the downfall of many people I play as my merfolk just landwalk all over them. 2/2 zombies don't block landwalkers very well.
Waste Not seems absolutely Flying Speghetti Monster awful vs affinity. They empty their hand faster than any other deck, and Waste Not only interacts when they discard. You would have to be using suboptimal discard spells like Funeral Charm to even touch their hand after a few turns.
I did a bunch of testing with Waste Not proxied and sure there was a few times I got to Inquisition turn 1, Waste Not turn 2, then Wistful Thinking turn 3 and just go nuts. But that was maybe 1 in ten games, the rest of the time it was either an awful top deck, or my opening Inquisition/Thoughtseize/Gitaxtian Probe revieled I need to hit their hand again, ASAP before dropping Waste Not, making it a pretty bad card in my hand again.
Although I have humored the idea of using cards like Vapor SnagEchoing Truth, etc after you drop a Waste Not, then follow both up with removal on your turn and EoT bouncing stuff to their hand. That is with splash blue for Wistful Thinking, Spellskite and 2 Gitaxian Probe.
Yeah, spreading seas is why ensnaring bridge isn't an auto win against Merfolk. Two of my three swamps had been turned to Islands in one game against him, and cards started getting stuck in my hand, and I lost that one.
Yeah, I am sure Waste Not will do nothing against Affinity, like Wrench Mind. Affinity can be just a tough match up for 8rack anyways regardless of the build because it can swing through ensnaring bridge. Obviously, those examples I gave are Magical dreams everyone has with cards like Waste Not. There were times of course when Waste Not was bad or only okay, and it needs more playtesting against more of the top meta decks, but I'm loving its potential.
We're going to test it and see. It's very likely to be at least a 1-of. Three months to go!
I have tested Waste Not and I have loved what I've seen so far. Here's a great example against my friend playing Twin:
T1 On the play thoughtseize take out remand
T2 Waste Not
T3 Wrench mind he discards a land and a splinter twin. So I get BB to my mana pool and draw a Raven's crime. I cast raven's crime with one of the floating B and he discards another land (So now I'm at BBB), with another floating BB I play smallpox he sac's one his two lands and discards a pestermite, which gives me a 2/2 zombie. At this point he has 1 card and 1 land.
This was my best example of chains from Waste Not triggers. I have found it to be a beast so far. Even if you're not going off like in my one example, the single triggers can be huge as well. I'm sure there is fear that it can be somewhat of a dead card/draw late game against matchups that empty their hand rapidly, but so can a lot of our cards in certain match ups (like Wrench Mind against Affinity). I would highly recommend all 8rack players to get their playset after it's release with M15.
I think there's hesitation in the 8Rack community as Waste Not seems too good to be true/terrible top deck. But these kinds of explosive T3s are what makes me think the deck will really take off.
I think that Raven-Dakmor loops will also feel that much stronger.
Do you see yourself trying to fit in Instant speed discard effects to try to take advantage of opponents' top deck? Might be a win-more strategy.
Lots of players here like using Skite, what do they think about possibly running both?
Whoever mentioned that I should have quit after 8th re: borders - Phooey. 8th was cool. However the new redesign looks like Pokemon iterations.
I'm not sure running different spells to capitalize on Waste Not's effects are the best idea. Like I said earlier, the card is for explosive early games. It can also tip the scales in mid game against stall decks.
Since you're testing- have you thought of testing against Affinity and Merfolk? They're both goofy aggro decks that could use WN suspect testing due to their aggro style.
/mulling
EDIT: sorry this is choppy gang I'm on my phone at work (don't tell my manager 😎)
I think the biggest flex spot for the deck is the dark confidant or bitterblossom spot. I currently play Bob over BB simply because that's what I have. And waste not will replace Bob come m15.
Actually I have a friend who primarily plays Merfolk and another who plays Affinity. However, because of my work schedule and the fact that Spring weather has finally arrived here in Michigan I've been outside when not at work, so I haven't tested Waste not against my friend with Affinity. But I have a played a game or two against Merfolk, and it was pretty effective still. The 2/2 zombies were all-stars, they held off attackers (until at least 2 lords were able to hit the board), they blocked when there were attacking Merfolk, and overall helped me stall in Game 1 long enough to dig for ensnaring bridge, which pre-board against Merfolk is essentially game over.
EDIT: I just remembered that I have played against my friend's Death & Taxes deck with Waste Not, just not his Affinity deck. And I had similiar chain of triggers on T3 against him as well. Against him it went T1 raven's crime, T2 waste not, T3 I played the Thoughtseize that I just drew and remove a restoration angel (get a 2/2), then I cast Raven's crime from the gy and he discards a land (My mana pool BB), i play RC from my GY again and he discards a land again (My mana pool: BBB), I do it a third time and he discards path to exile and I draw the rack.
So, then with the two floating mana I played shrieking affliction and the rack. He had 1 card and 1 creature, and I had a 2/2 zombie, SA, the Rack, Waste Not and zero cards in hand.
I didn't fully realize how well Raven's crime and Waste not could work together until that game. With a hand full of land you can just tear apart the opponent's hand.
Haha I know. More jokes.
Love it! Send that to MaRo! Let's get it that in Huey.
Symphony of Destruction BB
Instant
Destroy target creature. That creature's controller discards a card.
"Rack wins."
That would end the kill spell debate. haha Before I possibly get a beatdown for this post, this was very tongue-in-cheek and I realize it's OP.
4x Bloodghast
1x Disciple of Bolas
1x Entomber Exarch
1x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Geralf's Messenger
4x Gravecrawler
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Murderous Redcap
2x Phyrexian Obliterator
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Blood Crypt
4x Marsh Flats
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Overgrown Tomb
6x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Dismember
1x Putrefy
4x Birthing Pod
Sideboard (15)
1x Anathemancer
1x Damnation
1x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Putrefy
2x Rakdos Charm
3x Shadow of Doubt
1x Whip of Erebos
When it comes to main deck removal I would probably go victim of night>smother>doom blade. First, although Black seems to be the weakest of the 5 colors atm in Modern there are still some formidable creatures that are seeing play like phyrexian obliterator and dark confidant. Although Black Devotion and BG(x) are not super prevalent in most metas they still make Doom Blade a dead card or near dead, geralf's messenger nixes both VoN and DB but Gerry is probably best answered by ensnaring bridge, because either way he'd need to eat 2 removal spells. Smother cant hit Kiki, Resto, Linvala, Wurmcoil, Primeval. There are probably a few other 4+ CMC creatures I'm not coming up with right now. But there are more relavent creatures that are 4cmc + than creatures that are zombies, werewolves, or vampires.
One problem is that 8rack has such a tight decklist. There are very few flex spots. The issue with charm is the opponent gets to choose the card which makes it bad early in the game. The other opponent choice discard spells are far superior. Raven's crime can be abused and Wrench Mind creates instant card advantage (most of the time). And although charm can even act as removal there are still better options like Victim of Night and Slaughter Pact. Look above at destroyermaker's list, That is as sound of a 60 as you can get. The biggest flex spot in the deck is Bitterblossom vs Dark Confidant vs Spellskite. Too much tinkering can hurt the deck's power.
I really like your build. In my opinion, it's the most ideal for proactive 8rack. I would have a different sideboard, but that's just a meta thing.This is the 60 I would like to play, but without BB it's impossible. So I use Mutavault instead of Buried Ruin, and cant quite get the same value out of Darkblast (a card I have really liked in the sideboard).
I have found Darkslick Shores to be a good addition. It comes down untapped on all of the important turns 1 through 3, and saving the 2 life here and there from Spellskite's ability can make a difference. Like in a scenario I had last night. I had Darkslick, Ensnaring Bridge, 2 racks, and Spellskite on the board and my life at 1 against Merfolk. He "couldn't" target Ensnaring Bridge with the Steel Sabotage in his hand because I could just redirect it to Spellskite without paying 2 life, and so on his next turn I won.:) It's basically a small addition that for the most part has small upside but no downside.
4x Raven's Crime
4x Thoughtseize
4x Wrench Mind
3x Victim of Night
4x Dark Confidant (Waste Not)
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Mutavault
14x Swamp
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x The Rack
Sideboard (15)
2x Bile Blight
2x Pithing Needle
2x Drown in Sorrow
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Spellskite
4x Surgical Extraction
I only "splash" for Spellskite. Darkslick seems like a simple and unabrasive addition that can save some life. I havent tested Waste Not against all the big meta decks, yet. But against decks like Affinity, Burn, Zoo I have/would take Waste Not out for Spellskite/removal/LoS, whichever is most appropriate. It would probably be what comes out against tron for extraction, but Victim would also come out.
I don't run Urborg simply because I dont have them anymore and they are now $40.
Question. How have people faired against Living End? I have never personally played the archetype but it seems like it has to be one of our hardest match ups. Or am I wrong?
EDIT: I am also constantly putting Smallpox in and out of the deck. I love it, it's just so difficult finding the perfect build. The land aspect of it alone can hit some decks so hard.
I feel like I'm missing something. How is Bob *way better* in this scenario? He will gather cards EVERY turn no matter what, where Waste Not *might* draw. Bob can't attack with his 2 power like the zombie(s). And Bob will drain your life while your opponent attempts to hold onto cards to prevent damage from the racks.
I definitely see an argument for Bitterblossom since you draw the card for turn, attack, play whatever card you drew.
You gave just one scenario of an infinite number of possibilities. But Waste Not can steal games without even a "nuts draw", with all the 4-ofs in 8rack it's not that unsual to get a great opener with it. And I'll make a scenario of my own that isnt even close to Christmasland. Opening hand Thoughtseize, WN, 3x Swamp, Ravens crime, Rack. Not a nuts draw by any means. Thoutseize turn 1 and determine if WN is a good play t2 or later. If it is good for turn 2 you play WN. Turn 3 you Raven's Crime at least twice giving you 2 triggers. This early in the game with cards in your hand do they dump two land and give you BBBB or 1 land for BB to work with? Tough to say, but for a lot of decks lands are absolutely crucial turns 1-3. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to think at this point you could be having your opponent discard 2-4 cards on turn 3. And I never even mention the turn 2 and 3 draws and already this hand seems to be pretty formidable. And sure there are plenty of ways you could counter that scenario and how it could go poorly, but I could just as easily counterback and add to how this scenario could be back-breaking to the opponent.
I think Waste Not needs a lot more testing before just being casted out. Right now I've liked it better than Bob. I dont have Bitterblossoms so that isnt an option in my 8rack. If after extensive testing Waste Not proves to be "a waste", I'll personally move towards Spellskite main board.
Have you actually tested it? Or just making assumptions?
Sure Bridge and Waste Not can "nonbo", but so can Bob and Bridge or Manlands and Bridge and plenty of people play those in 8rack. Bob, Bitterblossom, and Waste Not all have pros and cons. One difference is that Waste Not can do a lot of things the others do but without lost of life.
Oh yeah, I am defintely aware of how good Ensnaring Bridge is vs Merfolk (especially game 1), but it doesnt just end the game. What I was referring to was a game against my friend where I had 3 swamps and he Spreading Seas 2 of them. I started drawing an abundance of double black costing spells (Liliana's, Wrench Minds, and Victim of Nights) without seeing another Swamp, so his Merfolk were able to attack eventually. And the other game where i referred to zombies as "all-stars", was a game when he saw only one Spreading Sea, but I Smallpoxed and sac'd my "Island". So his creatures never had Islandwalk the rest of the game.
idk about "almost never". If you have thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek on t1 you can make an informed decision. And if you see the potential to combo off t3 then you probably should against some decks. I didn't always drop it turn 2 if I knew I had to be more proactive. I found that Turn 2 waste not into a turn 3 resolved lili really forces your opponent to think hard about what they discard.
EDIT: There were a lot of times I'd play it turn 3 with a non-Wrench mind discard card in my hand.
Yeah, spreading seas is why ensnaring bridge isn't an auto win against Merfolk. Two of my three swamps had been turned to Islands in one game against him, and cards started getting stuck in my hand, and I lost that one.
Yeah, I am sure Waste Not will do nothing against Affinity, like Wrench Mind. Affinity can be just a tough match up for 8rack anyways regardless of the build because it can swing through ensnaring bridge. Obviously, those examples I gave are Magical dreams everyone has with cards like Waste Not. There were times of course when Waste Not was bad or only okay, and it needs more playtesting against more of the top meta decks, but I'm loving its potential.
I think the biggest flex spot for the deck is the dark confidant or bitterblossom spot. I currently play Bob over BB simply because that's what I have. And waste not will replace Bob come m15.
Actually I have a friend who primarily plays Merfolk and another who plays Affinity. However, because of my work schedule and the fact that Spring weather has finally arrived here in Michigan I've been outside when not at work, so I haven't tested Waste not against my friend with Affinity. But I have a played a game or two against Merfolk, and it was pretty effective still. The 2/2 zombies were all-stars, they held off attackers (until at least 2 lords were able to hit the board), they blocked when there were attacking Merfolk, and overall helped me stall in Game 1 long enough to dig for ensnaring bridge, which pre-board against Merfolk is essentially game over.
EDIT: I just remembered that I have played against my friend's Death & Taxes deck with Waste Not, just not his Affinity deck. And I had similiar chain of triggers on T3 against him as well. Against him it went T1 raven's crime, T2 waste not, T3 I played the Thoughtseize that I just drew and remove a restoration angel (get a 2/2), then I cast Raven's crime from the gy and he discards a land (My mana pool BB), i play RC from my GY again and he discards a land again (My mana pool: BBB), I do it a third time and he discards path to exile and I draw the rack.
So, then with the two floating mana I played shrieking affliction and the rack. He had 1 card and 1 creature, and I had a 2/2 zombie, SA, the Rack, Waste Not and zero cards in hand.
I didn't fully realize how well Raven's crime and Waste not could work together until that game. With a hand full of land you can just tear apart the opponent's hand.