To me shackles stops a problem that we don't have. Non combo creature decks are usually the easiest matchups. The path is in there mainly to stop combo or infect. Without twin, it seems much less necessary then it was. The influx in infect once the meta settles will probably negate that though. Shackles is a much worse card in most situations. Sorcery speed. You can only bust up a combo that you see potentially happening on the next turn. Even then the sequencing and picking the right target could be tough against some decks (cord). It does stop Spellskite which is excellent. It does nothing against manlands (affinity,infect).
I think Path is a way better card. It's just a matter of whether or not the tutor-ability of the Shackles makes up for its short comings. My guess is no. Again, it just seems too cute to me. Who knows.
The only problem I can see with Open the armory is against counter magic. Control has been rising in popularity. After the unbannings I'm sure it will be even more prevalent. Resolving an Open the Armory and then also resolving the aura that was fetched.. ehhh. I can also think of tons of situations where the card would be great. Just have to test it and see. I'm always skeptical of cute ideas in Bogels. Not sure if this is one of them or not. There seems to be a large community of people who want the deck to be something that it just isn't. My money says the most successful versions of the deck still just slam the auras and turn sideways, but who knows! So, yeah, when Bogles goes tier 1 because of Open the armory feel free to dig this up and laugh at me, ha.
Having said that, I am curious to test Gryff's Boon. I didn't think much of it when I saw it but at second glance it could be decent. There aren't a ton of decks than can do anything about a 3/2, 4/3, hexproof flyer. Modern is all about speed and a T2 boon + ethereal will be tough to stop. Even boon + an umbra is a T2 hexproof delver with totem. If it gets down fast enough, it almost plays around Spellskite without even having to deal with it. I think it will replace some copies of spirit mantle. The last ability is a stretch. Nice to have I guess but I cant imagine that being relevant very often.
Finally some new cards to test!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. That is exactly what I needed to know. I've got a pretty good modern collection going so the fetches and shocks I already own. I've always thought magic generally breaks down like this: You have a small income, cant afford the cards, but have tons of time to play, OR you work a ton, the card prices do not effect you at all, yet you have no time to play. I am definitely the later :)! Pretty easy solution. Quit my job, dump my girlfriend, and start playing sidewalk magic instead of kitchen table. Those new sleeves are easily good enough to repel the rain and snow.
I'll mess around with the mana base a bit and give those other slivers a try. I'll be sure and post if I end up for to a tourney anywhere. Thanks again for all the help!!
Hey guys. I'm switching over to slivers to change things up. I really like the deck and possible options. In the process of trading in some cards and ordering up the slivers. I've amassed the deck online and have been dicking around with it for a few weeks. I am real busy with work and don't have a ton of time to playtest so I was hoping you guys could answer my questions.
- For a mana base I've been rolling with sliver hive , reflecting pool , Cavern of souls,mutavault, mana confluence, and some random basic.. you get the idea. What are the downsides to this? It has been pretty seamless on mtgo. I have run 4 vials with it and of course the mana producing slivers. I realize its weaker to bloodmoon/ghostquarter, but it really has work well so far. Is this an ok option? Any huge reason I should avoid it? The only non sliver, non colorless card I have been bringing in out of the sb is Spell Pierce. I haven't always been running Sedge sliver. I assume that's a big reason to have swamp access. He seems pretty popular in lists.
- Are Harmonic Sliver and Cautry Sliver usually enough post board against affinity?
- CoCo has been stuck in my hand countless times in games where I do not draw a mana sliver or the mana sliver eats a bolt. I switched to Lead the Stampede and it fixed the problem quite a bit. I know you sacrifice the option for combat tricks switching from an instant to sorcery, but Lead the Stampede never gets stuck in my hand and having vial and/or mana slivers, casting them isn't really a problem. Any huge downside I'm not seeing here? Again, I understand it might be slightly worse in a lot of spots but is there any massive reason to avoid it?
- I run a few Necrotic Sliver but have yet to try it at blowing up lands. I just haven't tested enough to have run into the situation. Does it work well against Tron/Eldrazi? Is it pretty reliable? It seems a bit slow but great if you got it online in time.
-I run zero Blur Slivers. I have never even tried him. At 3 mana the haste ability just doesn't appeal to me. Again, I don't have a ton of time to test. Am I missing out running zero copies?
-Darkheart and Syphon Sliver.. is one of these better than other against burn variants? I'm sure as many as possible of both is ideal in the matchup but is one usually better than the other?
-Last one, is it ever best to slow roll the one drops out if you hold a diffusion or sledge sliver? I know pinging them in off aether vial almost as counter magic is ideal. It definitely slows things down a bit though. Quick thoughts?
I appreciate your answers in advance. I just don't have as much time to test as I wish I did.
Whoa baby. No twin and a hobbled amulet is pretty big for bogles. Have to see how everything irons out but I could see lists close to the Reid Duke deck from worlds a few years ago. Just all gas. Outside of maybe infect and a few other situations, path becomes almost obsolete. The number of Spellskites should go down considerably without twin and as much amulet too. Tron rising to the top could be a problem though. I usually get roughed up in at least game 1. It's definitively a sideboardable matchup but still doesn't feel great.
Aside from Ethereal Armor, we've gotten very little from the last few sets (Personally, I run a singleton Angelic Gift, but it's not the norm). Have there been any leaks from OGW that you feel might be relevant to the deck and/or piqued your interest?
Not that I can see. Casting 10 mana eldrazi on turn 4 certainly isn't Bogles specialty, haha. There have been a few cheap enchantments so I'm still holding out hope. The thing I don't want to see is some killer enchantment that requires colorless mana. That would be frustrating.
Should we be worried about Bonds of Mortality from OGW?
Not in my opinion. I don't see how this card would be playable unless Bogles became WAAAY more popular. I can't think of any other decks that rely on either hexproof or indestructible as their win condition. It's more efficient for opposing decks to play something like spellskite or fracturing gust that hurts other decks as well as Bogles.
Been playing hexproof forever and am looking for some feedback on playing 2 Arbors main. I've never tested it, but see it in lists from time to time. I love the idea but being dealt or drawing those things might be my least favorite part of the deck. I run 8 fetches so there should be no problem there. I've also thought about throwing one in the board but don't really want to use a sb slot on it. How does it go playing 2 main?
On another note.. It's no wonder that results for hexproof are down. All these new sets come out and decks like twin and jund just rip killer cards out of them over and over. I think the last legit threat we saw printed was Unflinching Courage. I don't mean to complain but can we get some more auras?!?!? It would be nice to sit down across from an opponent and for him to wonder at least which auras I chose rather than know all 60 of my cards after Temple Garden, 2 life, Gladecover Scout, pass. Oh well
I like playing Paths Main Deck, they're probably our only hope against decks like Twin and Bloom Titan.
how does splinter twin win with a suppression field on the table ? and as far as bloom titan goes i dont think it will be a popular deck at the gp and if i get matched against them and they forced to keep a slow hand i win and they get the nuts i lose game 2-3 i get paths
It depends which version of twin your playing. The combo isn't the only way twin wins. Suppression field can be a great card against it though.
Amulet will be a very popular deck at the GP or at least it will be in the later rounds. It's probably the best deck if piloted correctly and is a nightmare matchup. Path gets the titan and teeg gets hive mind but its just so fast. From my experience, you have to draw an almost perfect hand. Tolaria West into Chalice. Sweepers. There's just so many ways it wins. You might not see much of it in the first few rounds though.
Trifas - I agree. I like path a lot right now. Seems to be pretty well positioned. Field as well.
That's impressive. Must not be a whole lot of jund variants at these tournys. If I ran no Arbor and no Leyline in the side I would get my head taken off where I play.
I've been seeing a lot of people mainboarding Suppression Field, is that the best course of action? What is the argument for it?
I never used to play them but I am now. It seems to be pretty well positioned with such a wide variety of good decks. It effects almost every deck in Modern. Any deck that plays fetchs you have a decent chance at derailing. The only thing that comes to mind that it is really bad against is some versions of burn. Even there you might get lucky and hit a fetch. Its pretty weak against Infect and Amulet too. Stops the manland activations but bricks for the most part. The card isn't meant to deliver a knockout blow, just slow down decks like Jund, Affinity, Tron, Splinter Twin, so they cant turn the corner. It is a bit of a nombo with Canopy and fetching the Arbor. I can definitely see cutting Canopy down to 3 or so if you played more than one field. Other than that it's just a great card. I think what I like most about it is that it also helps against Spellskite. Spellskite is the most played nonland card in modern behind lightning bolt. Whatever your non-aura cards are they almost have to either remove or slow down Spellskite.
It does have a little bit of a Blood Moon-esque quality to it against some decks. Once they have seen it, some decks will probably be able to keep hands and fetch accordingly to play around it. It is way better on the play than on the draw.
Been getting back into modern recently (I only have a Bogles deck, so sometimes I just need a break) and I'm curious as to what we think about the potential of Canopy Vista ?
The meta at my LGS has been heavy with Burn/Boros burn, as well as decks with SB, or MB, Blood Moon. Currently I'm running 1 forest and 1 plains, I've been considering adding 1 more basic plains while swapping out 1, or 2 copies of the playset of Temple Garden's for Canopy Vista.
I know, I know, hear me out.
I don't know about the rest of you, but it's not that uncommon to bolt/shock myself to play Slippery Bogle, or Gladecover Scout on T1, obviously the burn player loves us for that. It got me thinking that, correct me if I'm wrong, the ideal mana fixing we want (generally) is a turn 1 green source, then a turn 2 white source, then another white source on T3 for Daybreak Coronet.
My train of thought is to take a bit of a risk in G1 against decks that I know run Blood Moon and start out playing as I normally would, with mostly non-basic lands and hopefully take G1. G2 we take a different route with our mana and fetch/play basics instead to hopefully neuter the opponents hand (some will mull down to Blood Moon then grind out after), or at the very least turn it into a dead draw. Another advantage is against the aforementioned burn decks, fetching into basics hurts a lot less than an untapped shock, instead of taking 2 or 3 to the face to get one source of G/W, we take 1 damage per turn over 3 turns and end up with a mana base of G, W, and G/W.
Obviously there will be times you want a G/W source on T1 or T2, which is why there's still shocks. This way you don't get burned for wanting to cast 2 green, or 2 white auras on T2.
With this I'm also hoping to clear up space in my SB, namely Nature's Claim. It's a great card, but it's narrow in my SB since I run Stony Silence for affinity/tron mostly, and I MB Path to Exile which deals with multiple things, especially a Splinter Twin target. Ideally, if I don't have to worry about a Blood Moon resolving then I can run Suppression Field instead since I feel that it's more effective against a wider variety of decks.
What does everyone else think?
I think your play might be coming a little warped from seeing too many blood moons. I realize its a relevant card but it seems like reconstructing the mana base for it is over reacting a little. I think your plan would work great as long as you were guaranteed to draw three lands every game. 90% of the games that I play, I see one or two lands and it would probably cost me the game if one of the came in tapped (Canopy Vista). I run 9 fetch lands and only 2 temple garden. The increase in fetches helps get around blood moon a ton and also increases the chances of being able to grab an Dryad Arbor if needed. Give this a go: 4 Windswept Heath, 4 Wooded Foothills, 1 Misty Rainforest, 4 Horizon Canopy, 2 razorverge thicket, 2 Temple Garden, 1forest, 1 plains, 1 dryad arbor. It shouldn't bother suppression field at all unless you're running a full set of Unflinching Courage or something. I took it to 2nd place at a pptq a few months ago and almost went undefeated so it must be somewhat good. It only costs 1 life to fetch for a basic and it thins the lands out of the deck a ton.
I totally agree with you about Nautre's Claim. I run stony and suppression for affinity/tron instead.
I don't think there is anything in the new set for us.. as much as I wish there was. Angelic Gift is just way too slow. I love the fact that it replaces itself, but a 2 cc aura that provides no boost is not where you want to be when you sit down across from Amulet, Infect, or anything else that goes off before turn 4-5.
Seems close to me. I'm always on the fence about bringing in Leyline against scapeshift. Their ability to bounce it and the potential of you drawing multiple copies of Leyline always steered me away. I usually bring in 3 Teegs and a Mana Tithe and try and race. Could be way wrong. Just my preference. It has been a loooong time since I've run into scapeshift.
Not a huge fan of only having 7 auras that get the damage through (4 rancor, 2 Spirit Mantle, 1 Unflinching Courage) with so many creature decks around lately. I would swap out one of the Path's and the Spirit Link for more copies of SM or UC. I can never see wanting more than 1 copy of Path in my hand. That thing's job in Bogles is to break up combos (Infect, Twin, Melira, Amulet). Everything else you should be able to run over.
On a side note.. I was pretty married to my 75, but I maindecked 2 Spellskites a few weeks ago and that thing is just fantastic in bogles. I was pretty skeptical at first. Now I'm not going anywhere without them. That was a killer idea by whoever had it.
Yeah, those are some good points. I always have trouble with jund/junk/abzan. That deck just has too many answers. Getting through Thoughseize, IoK, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Rhino, and the B/G Charm.. I play 4 leylines and can usually steal a game but two out of three is unlikely. It's even worse when you start doing well in a tournament and start playing against it every round.
I'll throw 4 spreading algaes in the board this weekend (so I'm sure to draw one) and see what happens. Seems like every card in jund/junk/abzan that bogles doesn't want to see has black in it. I'm not sure they could play around it.
Anyone ever tried spreading algae in the board? With so much Jund and Abzan, it seems reasonable. The card essential says destroy target land for one mana because there is no way that land is getting tapped. Seems good to me. Counts as another aura for ethereal.. draws off of the spiritdancer.. hmmm...
I think Path is a way better card. It's just a matter of whether or not the tutor-ability of the Shackles makes up for its short comings. My guess is no. Again, it just seems too cute to me. Who knows.
Having said that, I am curious to test Gryff's Boon. I didn't think much of it when I saw it but at second glance it could be decent. There aren't a ton of decks than can do anything about a 3/2, 4/3, hexproof flyer. Modern is all about speed and a T2 boon + ethereal will be tough to stop. Even boon + an umbra is a T2 hexproof delver with totem. If it gets down fast enough, it almost plays around Spellskite without even having to deal with it. I think it will replace some copies of spirit mantle. The last ability is a stretch. Nice to have I guess but I cant imagine that being relevant very often.
Finally some new cards to test!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll mess around with the mana base a bit and give those other slivers a try. I'll be sure and post if I end up for to a tourney anywhere. Thanks again for all the help!!
- For a mana base I've been rolling with sliver hive , reflecting pool , Cavern of souls,mutavault, mana confluence, and some random basic.. you get the idea. What are the downsides to this? It has been pretty seamless on mtgo. I have run 4 vials with it and of course the mana producing slivers. I realize its weaker to bloodmoon/ghostquarter, but it really has work well so far. Is this an ok option? Any huge reason I should avoid it? The only non sliver, non colorless card I have been bringing in out of the sb is Spell Pierce. I haven't always been running Sedge sliver. I assume that's a big reason to have swamp access. He seems pretty popular in lists.
- Are Harmonic Sliver and Cautry Sliver usually enough post board against affinity?
- CoCo has been stuck in my hand countless times in games where I do not draw a mana sliver or the mana sliver eats a bolt. I switched to Lead the Stampede and it fixed the problem quite a bit. I know you sacrifice the option for combat tricks switching from an instant to sorcery, but Lead the Stampede never gets stuck in my hand and having vial and/or mana slivers, casting them isn't really a problem. Any huge downside I'm not seeing here? Again, I understand it might be slightly worse in a lot of spots but is there any massive reason to avoid it?
- I run a few Necrotic Sliver but have yet to try it at blowing up lands. I just haven't tested enough to have run into the situation. Does it work well against Tron/Eldrazi? Is it pretty reliable? It seems a bit slow but great if you got it online in time.
-I run zero Blur Slivers. I have never even tried him. At 3 mana the haste ability just doesn't appeal to me. Again, I don't have a ton of time to test. Am I missing out running zero copies?
-Darkheart and Syphon Sliver.. is one of these better than other against burn variants? I'm sure as many as possible of both is ideal in the matchup but is one usually better than the other?
-Last one, is it ever best to slow roll the one drops out if you hold a diffusion or sledge sliver? I know pinging them in off aether vial almost as counter magic is ideal. It definitely slows things down a bit though. Quick thoughts?
I appreciate your answers in advance. I just don't have as much time to test as I wish I did.
Not that I can see. Casting 10 mana eldrazi on turn 4 certainly isn't Bogles specialty, haha. There have been a few cheap enchantments so I'm still holding out hope. The thing I don't want to see is some killer enchantment that requires colorless mana. That would be frustrating.
Not in my opinion. I don't see how this card would be playable unless Bogles became WAAAY more popular. I can't think of any other decks that rely on either hexproof or indestructible as their win condition. It's more efficient for opposing decks to play something like spellskite or fracturing gust that hurts other decks as well as Bogles.
On another note.. It's no wonder that results for hexproof are down. All these new sets come out and decks like twin and jund just rip killer cards out of them over and over. I think the last legit threat we saw printed was Unflinching Courage. I don't mean to complain but can we get some more auras?!?!? It would be nice to sit down across from an opponent and for him to wonder at least which auras I chose rather than know all 60 of my cards after Temple Garden, 2 life, Gladecover Scout, pass. Oh well
It depends which version of twin your playing. The combo isn't the only way twin wins. Suppression field can be a great card against it though.
Amulet will be a very popular deck at the GP or at least it will be in the later rounds. It's probably the best deck if piloted correctly and is a nightmare matchup. Path gets the titan and teeg gets hive mind but its just so fast. From my experience, you have to draw an almost perfect hand. Tolaria West into Chalice. Sweepers. There's just so many ways it wins. You might not see much of it in the first few rounds though.
Trifas - I agree. I like path a lot right now. Seems to be pretty well positioned. Field as well.
That's impressive. Must not be a whole lot of jund variants at these tournys. If I ran no Arbor and no Leyline in the side I would get my head taken off where I play.
I never used to play them but I am now. It seems to be pretty well positioned with such a wide variety of good decks. It effects almost every deck in Modern. Any deck that plays fetchs you have a decent chance at derailing. The only thing that comes to mind that it is really bad against is some versions of burn. Even there you might get lucky and hit a fetch. Its pretty weak against Infect and Amulet too. Stops the manland activations but bricks for the most part. The card isn't meant to deliver a knockout blow, just slow down decks like Jund, Affinity, Tron, Splinter Twin, so they cant turn the corner. It is a bit of a nombo with Canopy and fetching the Arbor. I can definitely see cutting Canopy down to 3 or so if you played more than one field. Other than that it's just a great card. I think what I like most about it is that it also helps against Spellskite. Spellskite is the most played nonland card in modern behind lightning bolt. Whatever your non-aura cards are they almost have to either remove or slow down Spellskite.
It does have a little bit of a Blood Moon-esque quality to it against some decks. Once they have seen it, some decks will probably be able to keep hands and fetch accordingly to play around it. It is way better on the play than on the draw.
That's my two cents
I think your play might be coming a little warped from seeing too many blood moons. I realize its a relevant card but it seems like reconstructing the mana base for it is over reacting a little. I think your plan would work great as long as you were guaranteed to draw three lands every game. 90% of the games that I play, I see one or two lands and it would probably cost me the game if one of the came in tapped (Canopy Vista). I run 9 fetch lands and only 2 temple garden. The increase in fetches helps get around blood moon a ton and also increases the chances of being able to grab an Dryad Arbor if needed. Give this a go: 4 Windswept Heath, 4 Wooded Foothills, 1 Misty Rainforest, 4 Horizon Canopy, 2 razorverge thicket, 2 Temple Garden, 1forest, 1 plains, 1 dryad arbor. It shouldn't bother suppression field at all unless you're running a full set of Unflinching Courage or something. I took it to 2nd place at a pptq a few months ago and almost went undefeated so it must be somewhat good. It only costs 1 life to fetch for a basic and it thins the lands out of the deck a ton.
I totally agree with you about Nautre's Claim. I run stony and suppression for affinity/tron instead.
I don't think there is anything in the new set for us.. as much as I wish there was. Angelic Gift is just way too slow. I love the fact that it replaces itself, but a 2 cc aura that provides no boost is not where you want to be when you sit down across from Amulet, Infect, or anything else that goes off before turn 4-5.
Not a huge fan of only having 7 auras that get the damage through (4 rancor, 2 Spirit Mantle, 1 Unflinching Courage) with so many creature decks around lately. I would swap out one of the Path's and the Spirit Link for more copies of SM or UC. I can never see wanting more than 1 copy of Path in my hand. That thing's job in Bogles is to break up combos (Infect, Twin, Melira, Amulet). Everything else you should be able to run over.
On a side note.. I was pretty married to my 75, but I maindecked 2 Spellskites a few weeks ago and that thing is just fantastic in bogles. I was pretty skeptical at first. Now I'm not going anywhere without them. That was a killer idea by whoever had it.
I'll throw 4 spreading algaes in the board this weekend (so I'm sure to draw one) and see what happens. Seems like every card in jund/junk/abzan that bogles doesn't want to see has black in it. I'm not sure they could play around it.