You're right. I took out Void Shatter instead (not sure if it's a good move with all these World Breakers around, but we'll see).
Btw, I played with the new deck on MTGO and won 2-1 against a green-red ramp deck that had Chandra, World Breaker, Tireless Tracker and Ulamog. I lost first game but won games 2 and 3 due to a Thing in the Ice cast turn 2 that soon flipped and brought unimaginable destruction! With Thing in the Ice in there, I basically only needed to counter or tap all his moves and GG. I love this deck. Also, I found out that I love Send to Sleep, even more than Engulf the Shore, because the former can be cast for 2 and does NOT need any target, meaning we can play it just to take out a counter from TiTi. Engulf the Shore, on the other hand, is way costier and pretty much always send TiTi back to our hands (unless it has 1 counter).
Therefore, my updated deck is as follows (now I have 15 cost-2 cards, yay!)
Card selection discussion aside, I'm gonna go with 24 lands for this one. While it is important to be hitting your 4th land drop, there's a lot of drawing/scrying mechanics that should help with this. Play it with 24, and if you're not getting quite all the land you need, bump to 25, but I think we can all agree 23 is probably too few for the reasons mentioned above.
That's exactly the problem. Some games I hit way few lands, while others I hit way too many. I don't know if it's because Im a bad shuffler or if it's a land problem... *sigh*
But I believe 25 might be better so I can begin with at least 2-3 lands on the starting hand more often. Mulligan is a pain...
Also, after I get to 5-6, I can likely use the scry/draw to filter and not take much more lands than I need. So perhaps we should err on the "more lands" side, don't you think?
I feel like this might be better in the "standard" subforum--possibly in the "deck creation" sub.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
I tried Clash of Wills, but I prefer Calculated Dismissal for the Scry 2. It's really important late game, when I need to keep having gas and not drawing more and more lands (lost games because of it).
The only thing Clash of Wills help is that it indeed can be played with 2 lands. It is sometimes great. But late game I feel it has basically no uses, while Calculated Dismissal is good on turn 3 and turn X to filter up your next draws...
But I agree with you whole-heartedly! Im gonna run 25 lands! Will move the Trail of Evidence to the SD...
Well the Blue Prison deck runs Prism Ring which could work well with Artificer's Epiphany, though worse case its a slightly more expensive Anticipate. So its a question of being able to easier cast it or whether you want an additional card to draw. Trail could help getting Epiphany's second card, but you need to cast it turn 3 before being able to benefit from it on the fourth turn. And seeing the deck isn't that fast already, I think just relying on Anticipate is easier than trying to be all elaborate with Epiphany and Trail.
Also, you probably want to cast a blue draw spell over cracking a clue anyways, just to benefit from the fact that Jace's Sanctum cheapens our spells and that Prism Ring gives life for doing so. Also with Day's Undoing the discard becomes slightly less relevant.
Ah, but a draw for 2 is still excellent, specially since our deck runs the long game. Who has never run out of gas late game? With clues, you would never run out, that's the idea. Jace's Sanctum seems awesome, but it's turn 4, does not give us any draw (although the scry does help...) and I fear that leaves us very vulnerable to a Dark Petition (well, for my counter deck at least)
I love to create deck lists, but Im always a bit unsure when it comes to lands. I usually run 24, but I either get too few or too much some games, and it bothers me to no end. Maybe Im just a bad, bad shuffler. On MTG duels, I don't seem to get nearly as unlucky as on real life games. Makes you wonder...
Anyhow, I created a deck that is MONOBLUE, has a lot of card draw and some scry. On the same time, it needs 6 mana for Rise from the Tides, its win-condition. Could anyone give me pointers on if I should run 23 or 24 lands? Or maybe even more than that?
Considering all that, should I run 23 or 24 lands? Also is Jace's Sanctum better here? I fear running it because if I play it turn 4, then at ther turn I will see a Dark Petition cast without anyway to counter... *sobs*
Not sure about Trail of Evidence, the deck already runs a fair amount of card draw as it is and while you will generate a fair bunch of clue tokens, it just feels like its setting you a spell back since you gain no instant benefit from it. You need to cast a spell and then crack a clue to get the value, which just feels slower than having a straight draw spell. So I wouldn't main deck it but could be a side board card, maybe a budget replacement for the Jace that is in the Blue Prison deck.
Well, I run it with Artificer's Epiphany, letting me draw 2 cards because I have a clue. Besides, it's better than Jace since there's almost anyone running enchantment hate, and it can get down turn 3 (as opposed to turn 5). In a battle against control, it's very strong to not get card disadvantage. But I agree that it might fit the SD better on most cases. Im still playtesting, and my meta is full of control, so...
Has anyone here thought about playing Trail of Evidence? It seems pretty good against control (specially those playing Tireless Tracker) and fits the theme of the deck...
The other card that is notable is Hydrolash, which seems decent against aggro strategies as it can hold off a fair bit of damage and draws a card. Though it doesn't stop heavy hitters that much, so it might be something that can go into the SB for when facing Mono W Humans, as meta wise it doesn't seem to be a main deck card for me.
I did see a mention of Scatter to the Winds, which I've been considering as well, just to give a little extra with Awakening it, but a 3/3 isn't that much and it dying to removal means you put in a fair bit of mana and are down a land... so it feels more like that could is just better off focused on our main win condition. I still prefer Void Shatter at the moment (as I don't run as much counter magic as White_Lynx's list) simply because it exiles.
Indeed, I also find Hydrolash a very nice SB card. I just changed my deck up there to include 4 of them in the SB. Why? Because counters aren't all that good against heavy creature-decks. I'd rather have 4xEngulf the Shore, 4xGrip the Roil, 4xAdverse Conditions, 4xSend to Sleep and 4xHydrolash instead. So, 20 cards to buy us time. Plus, 8 of them also nets us a card in addition. Against CoCo and Humans, what's not to like? =P
Eh, I just wrote very long post and before sending, shut down internet browser....
So White_Lynx, I fully agree with your post. But your deck is not standard brain in the shore. It approaches Rise from the Tides same as UB Languishing Brain (the deck I'm playing and was posting about it - I'm not its inventor). Rather than dig for combo pieces and trying to combo off the fastest it is possible - philosophy of combo decks to which standard brain in the shore can be accounted, our decks takes more of a control approach and use RftT as win condition. Whether it is by negating threats or simply eliminating them. What we sacrifice in Our approach is time Whatever will you say standard brain in the shore digs faster.
Your's comment do not at all connect to any of my prior statements. I know that my English is a bit clumsy and my thoughts may not be clear, but please understand as it is not my native language. All I'm trying to say is that Muller's MU Prison is too easy to be answered. Both of decks (White_Lynx's one and UB Brains) have a way to "hold" zombies till next turn. Whether it is by mass of negates or single negates and instant RftT. The MU Prison do not have any of those. IMHO a "brain dead" person can counter Muller's list. All you need is transgress. I don't think you even need 4, because opponent will give you them back from graveyard. So,why it did so well at GPT? I think nobody was prepared for this kind of list. None of the versions of brain in the shore are perfect and possibly in many areas around the world there are nobody playing that list. All of Us here agreed that Brain in the Shore deck is not T1. I haven't ever played in grand tournament, but I suppose most of players use classic T1 decks. There comes my thought: none of classic T1 decks, which are prepared for other T1 deck's in mind was prepared for MU Prison. Becoming more and more popular will lead to more answers in T1 decks.
Out of this thought comes out my reluctance to MU Prison -> It is just to easy to be countered, into oblivion of nothingness. You do not counter it a bit, like classic post-SB games when every player is trying to disrupt it's opponent plan. It is like "using despise on "Ormendahl" -> Concede (write the same post 2nd time and you become a poet :D).
I actually agree with you on that account. I don't like that MU list either, it was probably blind luck. It has even less ways to slow down aggressive decks than our standard Tides decks... also, a few well-played counters and they have to concede...
What I disagreed was when you said that "Rise from the Tide decks cannot (almost, against thinking and using T1 deck opponent) work without brain". My monoblue counter deck and UB languish deck both prove otherwise.
Day's Undoing refuels your hand to allow you to keep interacting with the opponent's creature's;
You call that interact? 4xHydrolash and 4x Engulf the Shore?
I'm sorry, to win you need to either cast 2 Part the Waterveil in the same turn, or chain cast 3 of them. The first option is rather mana heavy but doable with Jace's Sanctum ((9-4)x2=10 free mana). In 2nd option one successful negate destroys all your work and you have to prepare your combo again. Even if there was no negate from opponent those are 3 cards from 45 (60 - 4xjace's - 4xrings - 7 lands you need on the battlefield (to have 4 sanctums up)) and you only have 4 copies of this specific card. I know its doable but you do not play against walls most of the time. By turn you have 10 mana and 4 sanctums up, you most likely be dead not only to aggro, but to mid-range or even ramp. (You have almost no interaction with ramp in this deck.) I really understand the purpose of prism rings in this deck, but I wouldn't overestimate their value.
I would like also to highlight that you have NO response to planewalkers which, I'm sorry, have crucial role in current meta. From the decks I have seen competitively only Brains/Shore/Rise/Waterveil deck (whatever would you now call it), UB Languish-Brain or mono-white humans (they use flipwalker in main) do not use classic planewalkers (ones that do not count as creatures)... This deck do not even have single negate in main....
As for answer to your question I have played only 3 games using original deck, because setting amount of triggers online (cast EoT anticipate for 1 -> 4xprism ring + 4 Jace Sanctum's scrys) drove me crazy. Two out of those three games I run out of time for 2nd game, won firsts. Tabletop magic would be better because you don't have to set every scry after the first to stay on top.
I'm really trying to look inside this deck, but can't make my self to like it. As I wrote few post earlier IMHO this deck won this 12-3 because nobody known what was going on.
I would completely disagree with this. My experience has been COMPLETELY different. I have never won a game where I didn't get to cast RftT. I am beginning to believe that Jace's Sanctum may be the card this deck wants over Jar. Jar is a good role-player but it does occasionally feel like a bad mana sink. I do not believe that Day's Undoing is necessarily what this deck wants unless you are actually all in on the Part plan I think its folly more often than not.
It was said few times in this topic, and I do not want to sound arbitrary but Rise from the Tide decks cannot (almost, against thinking and using T1 deck opponent) work without brain. You need to cast it at instant speed, untap and strike. There are too many sorcery speed sweepers in addition to negates. There are none sweepers with instant speed except Avacyn and Hallowed Moonlight, which even those are commonly found.
I have to disagree on some points of your post. There are versions of the deck that CAN deal with planeswalkers and do not need Brain in a Jar to work. Take my version of a Rise from the Tides deck, for example:
The ONLY weakness of the deck is that it can't cast Rise from the Tides at instant speed. But considering we have 12 counters plus 6 in the SD to deal with decks that use Languish and Virulent Plague, plus the Thing in the Ice as a alternate win-con that we can defend with our counters (casting it on turn 5 against control, for example). Counters also defend agaisnt Planeswalkers easily, generate cards in the graveyard and take off counters from Thing in the Ice. I have won 3-1 with this deck on FNM (could have done 4-0 if I didn't misplay against a mill deck) and while it may not prove much, it's there to say it can work well enough.
Last FNM something came up and the judges were a bit unclear on the answer (two judges said different things), so I wanted to clarify it here:
1. My opponent has a creature and a Shambling Vent on their board. The manland is still a land at this point.
2. They say "Im entering pre-combat phase", whatever that means.
3. I use Adverse Conditions to tap his creature.
4. Afterwards, they transform their land into a creature and attack the same turn.
In my oppinion, he can't do that, because he needs to transform his land into a creature BEFORE the attacking phase, while I can still use Adverse Conditions to tap it. One of the judges agreed with me, saying the first thing that can be done on the Attacking Phase is to declare attackers, and not transform and then declare.
What does the almighty judges here on this forum say? And what's the reasoning behind it?
I looked this deck. It plays very nearly like my own. It's a control filled with counters and draws. In that way, perhaps you would benefit from Rise from the Tides like I do?
Aside from my win-cons, this deck always plays in my opponent turns and pass my turn with all lands untapped. Great for psychological pressure even if you don't have in your hands one of your 12 counters...
Strategy is very simple. Delay and Counter with efficiency. Draw to get lands or your win-cons. Then bash their faces with tens of zombies, krakens or drowners.
The difference is that is monoblue, but Im not sure the white you have actually helps you that much... although Planar Outburst might be better indeed than Engulf the Shore in some situations...
You cast Engulf. Opponent casts Anticipate. Thing triggers. Stack currently looks like:
Thing trigger
Anticipate
Engulf the Shore
First thing to resolve is Thing's trigger. The last counter gets removed, Thing is transformed, Awoken Horror's ability triggers. By the time Engulf gets to resolve, Awoken Horror and its 8 toughness get to stay on the board.
If the spells were cast in reverse order, Thing would end up bounced. After the spells are cast, the stack would look like this:
Engulf
Thing trigger
Anticipate
So Engulf resolves before Thing can transform, so it will be bounced when Engulf resolves. When the Thing trigger resolves, since Thing is no longer there, it can't be transformed, so no further bounceage occurs.
"same basic result"? The results are completely different, lol. In the first case it flips and isn't bounced. In the second, it is.
I have one question about the first scenario though. What if I Negate their Anticipate? Does thing still flips anyways?
You're right. I took out Void Shatter instead (not sure if it's a good move with all these World Breakers around, but we'll see).
Btw, I played with the new deck on MTGO and won 2-1 against a green-red ramp deck that had Chandra, World Breaker, Tireless Tracker and Ulamog. I lost first game but won games 2 and 3 due to a Thing in the Ice cast turn 2 that soon flipped and brought unimaginable destruction! With Thing in the Ice in there, I basically only needed to counter or tap all his moves and GG. I love this deck. Also, I found out that I love Send to Sleep, even more than Engulf the Shore, because the former can be cast for 2 and does NOT need any target, meaning we can play it just to take out a counter from TiTi. Engulf the Shore, on the other hand, is way costier and pretty much always send TiTi back to our hands (unless it has 1 counter).
Therefore, my updated deck is as follows (now I have 15 cost-2 cards, yay!)
1x Blighted Cataract
2x Mage-Ring Network
20x Island
Instants (28)
4x Anticipate
4x Clash of Wills
2x Send to Sleep
2x Engulf the Shore
4x Artificer's Epiphany
4x Hydrolash
4x Calculated Dismissal
4x Scatter to the Winds
3x Rise from the Tides
Creature (4)
4x Thing in the Ice
Side Deck (15)
4x Invasive Surgery
2x Engulf the Shore
2x Send to Sleep
4x Adverse Conditions
3x Trail of Evidence
That's exactly the problem. Some games I hit way few lands, while others I hit way too many. I don't know if it's because Im a bad shuffler or if it's a land problem... *sigh*
But I believe 25 might be better so I can begin with at least 2-3 lands on the starting hand more often. Mulligan is a pain...
Also, after I get to 5-6, I can likely use the scry/draw to filter and not take much more lands than I need. So perhaps we should err on the "more lands" side, don't you think?
I tried Clash of Wills, but I prefer Calculated Dismissal for the Scry 2. It's really important late game, when I need to keep having gas and not drawing more and more lands (lost games because of it).
The only thing Clash of Wills help is that it indeed can be played with 2 lands. It is sometimes great. But late game I feel it has basically no uses, while Calculated Dismissal is good on turn 3 and turn X to filter up your next draws...
But I agree with you whole-heartedly! Im gonna run 25 lands! Will move the Trail of Evidence to the SD...
Ah, but a draw for 2 is still excellent, specially since our deck runs the long game. Who has never run out of gas late game? With clues, you would never run out, that's the idea. Jace's Sanctum seems awesome, but it's turn 4, does not give us any draw (although the scry does help...) and I fear that leaves us very vulnerable to a Dark Petition (well, for my counter deck at least)
Anyhow, I created a deck that is MONOBLUE, has a lot of card draw and some scry. On the same time, it needs 6 mana for Rise from the Tides, its win-condition. Could anyone give me pointers on if I should run 23 or 24 lands? Or maybe even more than that?
The deck list is as follows:
1x Blighted Cataract
2x Mage-Ring Network
20x Island
Instants (28)
4x Anticipate
4x Artificer's Epiphany
4x Hydrolash
4x Calculated Dismissal
4x Void Shatter
4x Scatter to the Winds
4x Engulf the Shore
3x Rise from the Tides
Creature (4)
4x Thing in the Ice
Enchantment (2)
2x Trail of Evidence
Considering all that, should I run 23 or 24 lands? Also is Jace's Sanctum better here? I fear running it because if I play it turn 4, then at ther turn I will see a Dark Petition cast without anyway to counter... *sobs*
Well, I run it with Artificer's Epiphany, letting me draw 2 cards because I have a clue. Besides, it's better than Jace since there's almost anyone running enchantment hate, and it can get down turn 3 (as opposed to turn 5). In a battle against control, it's very strong to not get card disadvantage. But I agree that it might fit the SD better on most cases. Im still playtesting, and my meta is full of control, so...
Blighted Cataract
Dragonlord's Prerogative
Mage-Ring Network
Indeed, I also find Hydrolash a very nice SB card. I just changed my deck up there to include 4 of them in the SB. Why? Because counters aren't all that good against heavy creature-decks. I'd rather have 4xEngulf the Shore, 4xGrip the Roil, 4xAdverse Conditions, 4xSend to Sleep and 4xHydrolash instead. So, 20 cards to buy us time. Plus, 8 of them also nets us a card in addition. Against CoCo and Humans, what's not to like? =P
I actually agree with you on that account. I don't like that MU list either, it was probably blind luck. It has even less ways to slow down aggressive decks than our standard Tides decks... also, a few well-played counters and they have to concede...
What I disagreed was when you said that "Rise from the Tide decks cannot (almost, against thinking and using T1 deck opponent) work without brain". My monoblue counter deck and UB languish deck both prove otherwise.
I have to disagree on some points of your post. There are versions of the deck that CAN deal with planeswalkers and do not need Brain in a Jar to work. Take my version of a Rise from the Tides deck, for example:
21x Island
3x Mage-Ring Network
Cantrip (6)
4x Anticipate
2x Epiphany at the Drownyard
Counters (12)
4x Clash of Wills
4x Scatter to the Winds
4x Void Shatter
4x Grip of the Roil
4x Engulf the Shore
4x Adverse Conditions
Win-Cons (6)
3x Thing in the Ice
3x Rise from the Tides
Side Deck (15)
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
1x Drowner of Hope
4x Send to Sleep
4x Hydrolash
3x Invasive Surgery
2x Negate
The ONLY weakness of the deck is that it can't cast Rise from the Tides at instant speed. But considering we have 12 counters plus 6 in the SD to deal with decks that use Languish and Virulent Plague, plus the Thing in the Ice as a alternate win-con that we can defend with our counters (casting it on turn 5 against control, for example). Counters also defend agaisnt Planeswalkers easily, generate cards in the graveyard and take off counters from Thing in the Ice. I have won 3-1 with this deck on FNM (could have done 4-0 if I didn't misplay against a mill deck) and while it may not prove much, it's there to say it can work well enough.
1. My opponent has a creature and a Shambling Vent on their board. The manland is still a land at this point.
2. They say "Im entering pre-combat phase", whatever that means.
3. I use Adverse Conditions to tap his creature.
4. Afterwards, they transform their land into a creature and attack the same turn.
In my oppinion, he can't do that, because he needs to transform his land into a creature BEFORE the attacking phase, while I can still use Adverse Conditions to tap it. One of the judges agreed with me, saying the first thing that can be done on the Attacking Phase is to declare attackers, and not transform and then declare.
What does the almighty judges here on this forum say? And what's the reasoning behind it?
Adverse Conditions or Engulf the Shore?
Discuss!
Aside from my win-cons, this deck always plays in my opponent turns and pass my turn with all lands untapped. Great for psychological pressure even if you don't have in your hands one of your 12 counters...
Strategy is very simple. Delay and Counter with efficiency. Draw to get lands or your win-cons. Then bash their faces with tens of zombies, krakens or drowners.
The difference is that is monoblue, but Im not sure the white you have actually helps you that much... although Planar Outburst might be better indeed than Engulf the Shore in some situations...
My list is as follows:
22x Island
2x Mage-Ring Network
Draw (8)
4x Anticipate
4x Epiphany at the Drownyard
Counters (12)
4x Clash of Wills
4x Scatter to the Winds
4x Void Shatter
4x Engulf the Shore
4x Grip of the Roil
Win-Cons (8)
3x Thing in the Ice
2x Drowner of Hope
3x Rise from the Tides
Side Deck (15)
2x Send to Sleep
3x Adverse Conditions
2x Compelling Deterrence
2x Overwhelming Denial
3x Invasive Surgery
3x Negate
"same basic result"? The results are completely different, lol. In the first case it flips and isn't bounced. In the second, it is.
I have one question about the first scenario though. What if I Negate their Anticipate? Does thing still flips anyways?
Btw, thanks Wolfaxe and Arix