Juat because a guild has one or two more cards with its insignia than another doesn't necessarily mean that they're unequal. Besides, there are plenty of cards which are not aligned with guilds, cards like Auratouched Mage and Carrion Howler. They can be played in two guilds each. Also, you have to look at the space for the mechanics - each card with the guild's mechanic has the insignia. Radiance is an ability keyword that is tucked onto another effect. Convoke and Transmute could go on just about any non-land card - Radiance can't go on something like a straight 3/3 Flier, whereas Convoke can. Looks at this, from Gatherer:
There's your difference in guild insignias right there - the smaller area that Radiance can fill compared to the other mechanics.
I_F
I'm pretty much past this now, but just in case anyone is still coming up with theories I thought I would list the real number of cards with guild mechanics:
I don't think it has anything to do with the "power/speed" of the guild or balancing or any of that stuff you just mentioned.
It has to do with the design space of each mechanic:
Convoke/Dredge/Transmute: Can be placed on any card
Radiance: Requires a targeted ability
Therefore, they would have had to make a conscious decision to create more Red/White targeting cards than normal if they wanted to balance the number of times each guild symbol appears. They chose not to do that.
Granted, what I said is not confirmed, but it does seem to be reflected in the set. Boros is a little faster than the other guilds, and Selesnya is a little slower (at least from my view, I could be wrong about which is fastest). And, in the end, this may not be reflected in the Guildpact and Dissension, but for the moment it seems like it is in Ravnica.
And, yes, in the long run the "guild" theme doesn't really matter as far as actually gameplay is concerned. When Dissension comes out I'm sure there will be decks featuring many different guild cards, and lots of people really won't care about the whole guild theme, but there are some of us casual players who enjoy the flavor that comes with each set and try to build decks around ideas that are not directly related the core gameplay. So, in that respect, people that decide to build Boros decks will have less cards to choose from than people that go with Selesnya, but as I said, I now see how the guilds are balanced in a way.
I think it's great, and if you think about it, it's not a real problem, but in fact will help with overlap. It's better then them adding a bunch of white abilities or red abilities to cards to make them fit the guild. And conversely, it better we get a few more Convoke cards then less. Overlap means that if R/W is all about speed, then you just make speedy cards. No need to label them if they can also be used in other red or white guild matchups. Coalhauler Swine may work really well in a guild that has Lightning Helix, but no need to be so on the nose.
Anyway, about the guild breakdown, I discovered this last night and was wondering if anyone would mention it. And there are 37 G/W cards, not 36.
When I made my own visual spoilers for each guild I didn't scroll all the way down when counting. Sorry about that.
Also, so we're clear, I now see the reason for the different number of guild cards in each guild. Basically, each guild has a set number (25) of guild-cycle cards (13 gold, 3 hybrid, 3 land, 2 artifact, 2 "blend", and 2 mono creatures with cross-mana abilities) and then x mono guild mechanic cards where x reflects the power/speed of the mechanic/guild. In other words, if a mechanic/guild is strong and/or fast they get less cards, and if they are weak and/or slow they get more.
So we're right back to my initial explanation -- mono-colored cards that have the guild keyword, and thus the guild insignia, even though they're not tied to any particular guild.
There's nothing unbalanced at all. They just decided that the keyword does not have to appear on the exact same number of mono-colored cards. I like this decision better than forcing Radiance onto more stuff by adding useless targeted abilities.
Yes, we're right back to your initial explanation, now that someone else has explained it for you. And now that someone else has explained your explanation, everything makes sense.
Thank you for your explanation (and to charlequin for explaining it).
Guild cards are cards that either have both mana symbols or the guild mechanic. In Ravnica, each guild has 14 gold cards, 3 "hybrid" cards, 2 "blend" spells (one in each color), two creatures with cross-color mana abilities (again, one in each color), three lands, and two artifacts (a signet and a unique color-activated one.) These are exactly the same for all four guilds (and will be the same for the other six too) and account for all of the cards that get the guild symbol from their mana symbols. The only thing left is the mechanics, and R&D decided they didn't need to strictly balance the appearance of the different keywords; so, Boros has slightly fewer guild-insignia cards because it has slightly fewer Radiance cards. That's all.
Thank you for a well thought out answer.
What i meant by "the mechanics have nothing to do with it" was that some seemed to imply that all guild cards had the guild keyword mechanic. i was trying to point out that not all guild cards had the mechanic.
and btw, there are only 13 gold cards for each guild.
Basically what i'm getting at is that they make a point of having exactly the same number of guild lands (3 each), guild artifacts (2 each), guild mana cards (3 each), and guild gold cards (13 each), but when they created the mono guild cards they seem to have dropped the ball. It seems a little odd that they wouldn't try to make the overall number of guild cards even too. Thought maybe someone might have heard of an actual reason MaRo had done it this way.
Just because the card has the guild insignia doesn't mean it only exists for that guild. For example, you can play Leave No Trace in any deck that has white, and it doesn't behave differently no matter what other colors you play. It has the Boros insignia because it has Radiance. So adding up insignias is irrelevant. It just means that Radiance didn't make sense on as many mono-colored cards as the other keywords.
All the guilds have the same number of cards that require / benefit from using a particular 2-color pair. No pair was "cheated."
You miss the point. obviously a person can use whatever cards they want regardless of guild. it just seems odd that the number of guild cards for each guild is different, but yet so close. all they needed to do was slap the boros symbol on 2 more cards and 1 less selesnya card and they would all be even (similar to how most of the time each color in a set/block is even).
And, Radiance? What are you talking about? Radiance isn't on every Boros guild card (Boros Fury-Shield). Not every guild card has the guild keyword (Ordruun Commando). Other cards however feature guild art, and guild flavor text but are not guild cards like Light Of Sanction, which could have had the Boros symbol.
And as far as "cheated", if guild decks (decks featuring guild cards only) become popular then people who build Boros decks have less cards to pick from.
Basically what i'm getting at is that they make a point of having exactly the same number of guild lands (3 each), guild artifacts (2 each), guild mana cards (3 each), and guild gold cards (13 each), but when they created the mono guild cards they seem to have dropped the ball. It seems a little odd that they wouldn't try to make the overall number of guild cards even too. Thought maybe someone might have heard of an actual reason MaRo had done it this way.
I'm guessing a lot of the reaction has to do with the silly pose. Honesty I don't think we would have that much of an uproar, if the guy was standing in a "tough guy" pose that didn't look so ridiculous.
Now that all that is out of the way... I still think it's a bad idea.
If he was in a "tough guy" pose or any type of "pose" it would still look silly and make players feel like dorks for supporting a game that produces crap like this.
While the picture on the card is rediculous, think on this:
It is a way to give the pros some recognition, albeit in a corny way.
You aren't paying for it, it won't cost WoTC tons of wasted dough, etc.
If you don't like it, rip it up.
I don't get why people are peepeeing all over about this, its really not a big to do.
And it ISN'T a joke. We had distributor scans (comp info thread) that said the fat pack came with a pro card or something like that.
Calm down everyone.
I love these people who keep saying "what's the big deal? calm down, it's not like we have to pay extra for these, it's FREE."
So then, how exactly did WotC create these cards without spending money? Did they tap 4 lands and magicly summon them? Did they wish them into existence? Did they poop them out?
Seems like it, but no. WotC spent money on this crap, probably a decent amount. Money is spent on all the people and resources involved in creating these cards: the idiot who came up with idea in the first place, the people who decided what info is on the cards, the people who had to look up that info, the people who had to come up with card layout, the photographers, the printers, the cardstock, the ink, promotions, etc...
And WotC didn't donate the money for all this out of their own pockets. We, the customers pay for it. Either by 1. money/resources that are taken away from things like commissioning better artwork or paying R&D thus lowering the quality of the game (we pay the same price for a lesser product); or 2. a price hike later on down the road (we pay a higher price for the same product). Or most likely both.
When posting comments about crap products like this being FREE please realize producing them costs money, money doesn't grow on trees (unless of course, you consider your wallet to be a tree), and that one way or another we will have to pay.
ok, so only one doubling season would react to fists of ironwood thus creating 4 saprolings (2 from fists and 2 from the first doubling season), then the next doubling season would react to the first doubling season and create 2 more saprolings and then the third doubling season would kick in creating 2 more followed by the fourth so that you'd end up with 10 saprolings? assuming you have 4 doubling seasons in play and cast fists.
ok, i can dig it. after all these years i'm still learning. but just so i'm straight that thing with the fists of ironwood and multiple doubling seasons would produce 4 saprolings, right? thanks
Call me a noob (I've been playing since 99), but are you saying that even if you had 4 of these in play at the same time and played Fists of Ironwood all you would get is 2 extra saprolings?
Doubling Season Enchantment If an effect would put one or more tokens into play under your control, it puts twice that many into play instead. If an effect would place one or more counters on a permanent you control, it places twice that many on that permanent instead.
I'm probably wrong, but wouldn't two of these in play at the same time create an infinite number of token creatures?
I'm pretty much past this now, but just in case anyone is still coming up with theories I thought I would list the real number of cards with guild mechanics:
Radiance - 10 (4 white, 4 red, 2 gold)
Dredge - 12 (5 black, 5 green, 2 gold)
Transmute - 13 (5 blue, 5 black, 3 gold)
Convoke - 15 (6 white, 7 green, 2 gold)
Granted, what I said is not confirmed, but it does seem to be reflected in the set. Boros is a little faster than the other guilds, and Selesnya is a little slower (at least from my view, I could be wrong about which is fastest). And, in the end, this may not be reflected in the Guildpact and Dissension, but for the moment it seems like it is in Ravnica.
And, yes, in the long run the "guild" theme doesn't really matter as far as actually gameplay is concerned. When Dissension comes out I'm sure there will be decks featuring many different guild cards, and lots of people really won't care about the whole guild theme, but there are some of us casual players who enjoy the flavor that comes with each set and try to build decks around ideas that are not directly related the core gameplay. So, in that respect, people that decide to build Boros decks will have less cards to choose from than people that go with Selesnya, but as I said, I now see how the guilds are balanced in a way.
Actually there are 38, you missed a white.
When I made my own visual spoilers for each guild I didn't scroll all the way down when counting. Sorry about that.
Also, so we're clear, I now see the reason for the different number of guild cards in each guild. Basically, each guild has a set number (25) of guild-cycle cards (13 gold, 3 hybrid, 3 land, 2 artifact, 2 "blend", and 2 mono creatures with cross-mana abilities) and then x mono guild mechanic cards where x reflects the power/speed of the mechanic/guild. In other words, if a mechanic/guild is strong and/or fast they get less cards, and if they are weak and/or slow they get more.
Yes, we're right back to your initial explanation, now that someone else has explained it for you. And now that someone else has explained your explanation, everything makes sense.
Thank you for your explanation (and to charlequin for explaining it).
Thank you for a well thought out answer.
What i meant by "the mechanics have nothing to do with it" was that some seemed to imply that all guild cards had the guild keyword mechanic. i was trying to point out that not all guild cards had the mechanic.
and btw, there are only 13 gold cards for each guild.
Basically what i'm getting at is that they make a point of having exactly the same number of guild lands (3 each), guild artifacts (2 each), guild mana cards (3 each), and guild gold cards (13 each), but when they created the mono guild cards they seem to have dropped the ball. It seems a little odd that they wouldn't try to make the overall number of guild cards even too. Thought maybe someone might have heard of an actual reason MaRo had done it this way.
the mechanics have nothing to do with it, look at a few guild cards.
You miss the point. obviously a person can use whatever cards they want regardless of guild. it just seems odd that the number of guild cards for each guild is different, but yet so close. all they needed to do was slap the boros symbol on 2 more cards and 1 less selesnya card and they would all be even (similar to how most of the time each color in a set/block is even).
And, Radiance? What are you talking about? Radiance isn't on every Boros guild card (Boros Fury-Shield). Not every guild card has the guild keyword (Ordruun Commando). Other cards however feature guild art, and guild flavor text but are not guild cards like Light Of Sanction, which could have had the Boros symbol.
And as far as "cheated", if guild decks (decks featuring guild cards only) become popular then people who build Boros decks have less cards to pick from.
Basically what i'm getting at is that they make a point of having exactly the same number of guild lands (3 each), guild artifacts (2 each), guild mana cards (3 each), and guild gold cards (13 each), but when they created the mono guild cards they seem to have dropped the ball. It seems a little odd that they wouldn't try to make the overall number of guild cards even too. Thought maybe someone might have heard of an actual reason MaRo had done it this way.
Boros 33
Dimir 35
Golgari 35
Selesnya 38
any ideas why Boros got cheated and Selesnya got more?
If he was in a "tough guy" pose or any type of "pose" it would still look silly and make players feel like dorks for supporting a game that produces crap like this.
I love these people who keep saying "what's the big deal? calm down, it's not like we have to pay extra for these, it's FREE."
So then, how exactly did WotC create these cards without spending money? Did they tap 4 lands and magicly summon them? Did they wish them into existence? Did they poop them out?
Seems like it, but no. WotC spent money on this crap, probably a decent amount. Money is spent on all the people and resources involved in creating these cards: the idiot who came up with idea in the first place, the people who decided what info is on the cards, the people who had to look up that info, the people who had to come up with card layout, the photographers, the printers, the cardstock, the ink, promotions, etc...
And WotC didn't donate the money for all this out of their own pockets. We, the customers pay for it. Either by 1. money/resources that are taken away from things like commissioning better artwork or paying R&D thus lowering the quality of the game (we pay the same price for a lesser product); or 2. a price hike later on down the road (we pay a higher price for the same product). Or most likely both.
When posting comments about crap products like this being FREE please realize producing them costs money, money doesn't grow on trees (unless of course, you consider your wallet to be a tree), and that one way or another we will have to pay.
Enchantment
If an effect would put one or more tokens into play under your control, it puts twice that many into play instead.
If an effect would place one or more counters on a permanent you control, it places twice that many on that permanent instead.
I'm probably wrong, but wouldn't two of these in play at the same time create an infinite number of token creatures?