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Ultimate Masters: MMI Review
  • posted a message on The Gitrog Monster Algorithm
    What you highlight as the definition is an easy consequence of it. The actual definition was earlier: a deterministic system is a system in which no randomness is involved in the development of future states of the system. You can see that the part you highlighted was not the definition because of the word “thus”. It is clear that this combo contain a lot of randomness and it is thus not deterministic.

    It is a bit wierd thing to argue about as you also point out in that the definition of shutcut does not talk about whether it is deterministic.

    One of the problems for this combo is rule 702.2a, which says in part: (a shutcut) can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. There is no way to avoid using condtional actions for this combo.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on The Gitrog Monster Algorithm
    Quote from Cyrus Thelin »
    Oh of course!!
    Thank you, that clarifies how to get out of that loop.
    I think that the PDF maybe should be updated to include something about when you need to discard a random land and leave the draw trigger on the stack?
    Perhaps I'm just reading it wrong.

    Contrary to what you said, I believe that the combo is technically deterministic (maybe it's just "determinate"??), in the sense that when you do everything correctly, it is guaranteed to work with a finite number of actions, but it it not short-cuttable because the intermediate steps are unknown.
    This is what I learned months ago but last night I confused myself by making the scenario I wrote. Glad I can rest assured that it works as I thought.

    Could you walk me through the 2 shuffles for 1 draw case?


    Thanks very much,
    CT

    Ok, basically, the 2 shuffles for 1 draw happens if it goes XKLLL (using your notation), followed by XKLL. This will, following the prescribed choices, give you 1 draw every second time. (You can replace XK with KX and get the same problem, but besides those in all other cases you draw more than one over 2 shuffles).

    I gave a short description of how to do it in my second post in this thread.

    The typical definition of determinism in cases such as this is this one:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_system
    Which suggests that the combo is not deterministic.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on The Gitrog Monster Algorithm
    The combo is very non-deterministic. We do not know the order of the cards and it will influence how things happen. We do know though that after some number of steps, we get to draw all of our cards though.

    The part you were doing wrong in the crossed out part was that you let the draw trigger from your additional land resolve. You should just discard the land and then continue with the draw trigger on stack.

    In more details: Just after the reshuffle, you are sitting there with salvage and a random land in hand. You discard the random land, putting a draw a card trigger on stack. You then, in response, repeatedly dredge salvage until you put kozi into the gy. In case there are any draw triggers before dredging Kozi, you put them on stack and then dredge more. After having dredged Kozi, you let his trigger resolve. You are now back to the situration where you had 5 cards in deck (with 3 lands), BUT you also have at least one draw a card trigger on stack. You then just do this repeatedly until you have at least 5 draw triggers on stack and at this point you let them resolve one at a time and discard kozi whenever you would draw from an empty library. Note that in the worst case, you need 2 reshuffles for 1 draw.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Commander Combo Challenge
    Quote from Dunharrow »
    Quote from Reaper9889 »
    Quote from Dunharrow »
    Wild Pair, with Imperial Recruiter or Recruiter of the Guard.

    1. Cast a recruiter, searching for Sage of Hours with Wild Pair and Reyhan, Last of the Abzan with your recruiter abilitiy.
    2. Cast Reyhan, searching for Progenitor Mimic, copying Reyhan.
    3. Keep Mimic, sacrificing Reyhan. 1 Reyhan died, but there are two triggers, so there will be 6 +1/+1 counters going to Sage of hours. Every upkeep, you get another six counters, for infinite turns.




    Next Card - Soldier of Fortune


    Sorry, that would be really nice way of doing it, but wild pair searches for the size of the card as it is in play. Thus, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan is 3/3 for 6 total. I guess it is fine though since you could just start with an x-creature in hand too (most would be 0/0 if you spend nothing on x and die at once but would trigger wild pair).


    Here is the fixed solution, thanks for pointing out my mistake!

    Wild Pair, with Imperial Recruiter or Recruiter of the Guard.

    1. Cast a recruiter, searching for Shrieking Drake with Wild Pair and the Reyhan, Last of the Abzan with the recruiter's ability. Return the recruiter to hand with Shrieking Drake.
    2. Cast the recruiter, putting Sage of Hours into play with Wild Pair and searching for Progenitor Mimic with the recruiter ability.
    3. Cast Reyhan, searching up anything.
    4. Cast Progenitor Mimic, copying Reyhan, again searching for anything.
    3. Keep Mimic, sacrificing Reyhan. 1 Reyhan died, but there are two triggers, so there will be 6 +1/+1 counters going to Sage of hours. Every upkeep, you get another six counters, for infinite turns.

    This way you can also tutor up a lot of other things. Reyhan can put Master Biomancer into play, so when you cast Progenitor Mimic you can search up Sidisi, Undead Vizier, and then I guess you can tutor for just about anything to keep the combo going.

    It is quite different from my fix:
    Play the recruiter, putting sage of hours into play, putting a 2/3 or 3/2 one drop into hand (there is a few to choose from - all with some form of drawback - alternately, both can fetch kird ape, but that requires a forest).
    Play the one drop, fetching Ranger of Eos and finding Endless One and Hangarback Walker
    Play both for 0, one after the other and fetch Reyhan and the mimic
    The advantage is that it cost 4 mana in total. I guess you could also start with Shrieking Drake, which would only cost 3 in total and you could skip the recruiter (you would bounce the drake with its own ability the first time, fetching sage and fetch and bounce kird ape the second).
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Commander Combo Challenge
    Quote from Dunharrow »
    Wild Pair, with Imperial Recruiter or Recruiter of the Guard.

    1. Cast a recruiter, searching for Sage of Hours with Wild Pair and Reyhan, Last of the Abzan with your recruiter abilitiy.
    2. Cast Reyhan, searching for Progenitor Mimic, copying Reyhan.
    3. Keep Mimic, sacrificing Reyhan. 1 Reyhan died, but there are two triggers, so there will be 6 +1/+1 counters going to Sage of hours. Every upkeep, you get another six counters, for infinite turns.




    Next Card - Soldier of Fortune


    Sorry, that would be really nice way of doing it, but wild pair searches for the size of the card as it is in play. Thus, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan is 3/3 for 6 total. I guess it is fine though since you could just start with an x-creature in hand too (most would be 0/0 if you spend nothing on x and die at once but would trigger wild pair).

    Quote from darrenhabib »
    Quote from Reaper9889 »
    I would like to see one of these simple solutions you had in mind - I did find some others that were much more complex.
    I had Dragonstorm into Hellkite Charger, Savage Ventmaw, Dragonlord Kolaghan (for the haste). So 1 other arbitrary 9 spell for the storm count.
    Then copy them with Clone Legion so that you get two Savage Ventmaw so that you have enough to pay for the Hellkite Charger additional attacks.


    I also had Expropriate to take at least one extra turn, and then use Bringer of the Black Dawn to search for something like Enter the Infinite.


    But I really wanted somebody to come up with a different way, and you did, so I was super happy seeing your great interactions.
    those are neat!
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Commander Combo Challenge
    I would like to see one of these simple solutions you had in mind - I did find some others that were much more complex.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Commander Combo Challenge
    I think that card with that requirement is a bit complex, but here is a combo:

    Omniscience in play + Grozoth in hand:
    Play Grozoth, fetch 1 mostly arbitrary 9 cost card, The Ur-Dragon and dragonstorm.
    Play the arbitrary 9 cost card and then play dragonstorm.
    Fetch Ramos, Dragon Engine, mirror entity and Hoarding Dragon onto the battlefield with dragonstorm.
    Exile Ring of three wishes with Hoarding Dragon.
    Play The Ur-Dragon, putting 5 counters on Ramos, Dragon Engine and use his ability (generating 10 mana).
    Activate mirror entity for 0, killing all your creatures, including Hoarding Dragon, putting Ring of three wishes into your hand.
    Play and activate Ring of three wishes and fetch Enter the Infinite.
    Play Enter the Infinite.
    <Insert any of the combos that can be done after Enter the Infinite and Omniscience>.

    Next: Wild Pair, probs for fewer creatures in hand

    Edit: Used The Ur-Dragon instead of 5 mostly arbitrary 9 cost cards.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Cards to go in a judge-breaker build
    Quote from schweinefett »
    oh wow.. didn't even know that's a format!

    Nah, EDH is the place for this - we're both avid EDH players, and he likes playing semi-janky aggro-combo decks that have a tough time climbing out of weird situations. One game, he managed to get himself killed by my combo of havoc festival and soul echo with 10,000,000 skip my turns via a lethal vapors. he tried his darnedest to squirm his way out of what i'd consider to be a very lenient 'combo', but had fun trying to do so.

    also, EDH lends itself to having a lot of weird interactions with what other players are trying to do anyways. But cheers though for the tips - i might give it a go some day too.

    But that is trivial to get around: You just skip that many turns as well...
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Thawing Glaciers
    It is also very good with the Ravnica bounce lands. Regarding the OP, I think you just need to make some house rule kind of thing that says that you can fetch early and then go back and change your mind if it is relevant. That way you wont have to wait (assuming there are enough players that he do not use more time than the number of players.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Commander Combo Challenge
    Parallax Tide+Brago, King Eternal+Strionic Resonator+ artifacts or lands that can make 2 mana in total = reuse Bragos trigger infinitely many times and permanently exiles any number of lands (by putting the triggers in the right order) - also infinte mana if you can make 3 mana in total from your lands/artifacts. I actually use that in my Brago deck.

    Next - Astral Slide
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Ultimate Masters rarity shifts
    Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker seems interesting to me. It is a fairly decent combo ability.
    Posted in: Variant Commander
  • posted a message on A bit of math discussion: How many of X do you put in a deck before you will play Y
    Crucible of Worlds is nice in say 2 or more colors, if you are running cards that gives you selection. Like, run it (with a reasonable number of fetches) + some of sylvan library, sensei's divining top, scroll rack, Mirri's Guile and similar. But yes, something to return alone is not that great.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on So what could WotC realistically do to help white in Commander?
    Quote from Dormammu »
    I still believe Faith’s Reward is a good effect for white that could be repurposed in a more Commander-friendly way. Keeping up that mana turn after turn is too high a price for wipe protection.

    Seal of Faith’s Reward
    3W
    Enchantment

    0: Sacrifice ~.

    When ~ leaves the battlefield, return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard and exile that left the battlefield this turn.

    This should provide board wipe protection that includes exile effects and effects which remove the enchantment itself.

    It needs to say that it does not return cards named Seal of Faith’s Reward. Right now it is really broken. I think it would also be more elegant to return eot instead of that sac with no effect. (i.e. you make it sac: at end of turn, return all permanent cards not named Seal of Faith’s Reward put into gy from battlefield this turn - maybe rewritten to use until end of turn)
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on So what could WotC realistically do to help white in Commander?
    Quote from darrenhabib »
    Quote from Reaper9889 »
    Quote from darrenhabib »
    I should have made it clearer, I'm not comparing decks, or the abilities of the colors themselves, just the commanders ability in a vacuum.

    Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker's ability is even greater in a vacuum I think. With a simple set up, Shirei gives you a ton of resources each turn (i.e. a sac outlet gives you all your etb/leave the battlefield triggers from creatures with 1 power or less every turn), while Teshar doubles your spells (by bringing something back if it was historic).
    The reason why Teshar is the best is that it's an ability that can be triggered any number of times in a turn, from many to infinite. Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and Marchesa, the Black Rose, although are excellent because they are able to stretch out value on each players turns, are still limited that they can only trigger once each time.
    So putting aside anything to do with how the engines work i.e. "+1/+1 counters" or "creatures with power 1" or "creatures with converted cost 3 or less", it's simply based on the ability to string the triggers together, which Teshar has unlimited potential.

    Muldrotha, the Gravetide is a beast, but often I'll win games before they can setup properly.

    Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is another interesting "unlimited" graveyard recursion commander.

    Well, yes and no. Shirei can trigger once each turn for each of your creatures. Teshar can trigger once per spell. Typically, outside combos (and it seems unreasonable to talk about combos in a vacuum - at least to me vacuum refers to what happens in a typical situation, ignoring interaction from the oppeont - it is also why I think Marchesa is not as good in a vacuum - there are many 1 power creatures or historic spells. There are not that many creatures that etb with +1/+1 counters or ways to give them some and thus it is not quite common to get many such creatures), you will play the same card only once a turn. E.g. say that you play 3 cards each turn and have 2 opponents. Shirei can get 9 etb/leaves play triggers easily (3 at the end of each players turn). Teshar will get 6 effects. This is not even taking into account that in the next round, Shirei can get 18, while Teshar is stuck at 6. With more oppeonts, it is even more extreme.

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on So what could WotC realistically do to help white in Commander?
    To strengthen white, besides making better artifact draws (which I think is the right approach), WOTC could do more mentor of the meek or
    Puresteel Paladin style cards - hypothetically, printing say 5 more of each with different names would make white very good at card draw in EDH, while not influencing other formats (maybe add a mana cost to puresteels draw though to be safe).

    Quote from darrenhabib »
    I should have made it clearer, I'm not comparing decks, or the abilities of the colors themselves, just the commanders ability in a vacuum.

    Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker's ability is even greater in a vacuum I think. With a simple set up, Shirei gives you a ton of resources each turn (i.e. a sac outlet gives you all your etb/leave the battlefield triggers from creatures with 1 power or less every turn), while Teshar doubles your spells (by bringing something back if it was historic).

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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