With the ability to have zenergy with a bounce in response to its come into play ability (or sac effect, but that is only really good instead of insane)... it is not only strictly better than saltblast, it is strictly better than saltblast if saltblast costed 1W less.
I'm going to rate them based on the impact that they'll have on the game as a whole:
1. Angel's Mercy (without a doubt, this with isochron is gg against 90% of decks, anti-counterspell, anti-creatures, direct damage has ways of getting around it on a scepter ONLY IF they have no counter backup.)
I'm going to assume you are talking about Angel's Grace.... Ummmm, how is it anti-counterspell?
Anything copied with scepter can be countered cause scepter allows you to pay a copy of the spell that goes on the stack. All you have to do is put them at one, counter the copy and then apply lethal damage.
1. Magus of the Disk
2. Mangara of Corondor (unreponsable)
3. Ancestral Vision
4. Cancel
5. Spiketail Drakeling
6. Telekinetic Sliver (could make of a for real hard sliver deck)
7. Walk the Aeons
8. Leige of the Pit (do not underestimate this guy)
9. Stronghold Overseer (what?)
10. Sudden Spoiling (Awww.. Simic Skyswallower is dead and you can't counter it)
11. Jaya
12. Magus of the Scroll
13. Sulfurous Blast
14. Wheel of Fate (are you joking? perfect for red?)
15. Gemhide Sliver (now utopia tree is very awul)
16. Yavimaya Driad
17. Saffi Eriksdotter (just really cool, wish Yosei still existed with it)
18. Chromatic Star
19 - 23. All of the totems
24. Locket of Yesterdays
25. Flagstones of Trokair (playing 4 doesnt hurt at all =D)
26. Vesuva
Sorry for getting carried away, but there is really no narrowing that list down.... this set is freaking amazing, honestly i had to struggle to keep it at that... an honorable mention goes to Fool's Demise due to its impact on limited.
According to the latest revision of Mangara of Corondor's text in the now full spoiler; it would seem that her abilty is unresponable...
This might just be a mistype or we have the information wrong but it looks to me as *tap*, remove ~this~ and target permanent from the game. That makes its abilty to remove target permanent from the game part of the cost. Essentail the entire abilty is a cost and is therefore unresponable.
Is it just me or is this the first time wizards has allowed a card to manipulate your opponent's side of the board while paying the cost for a spell/ability? If there is supposed to be a ":" there instead of a ",", that would make he card even more broken because you could stack the ability and then bounce it.
As it stands it would appear that it is a split second vindicate on a stick, if it is a mistype, then it is a vindicate with buyback, either way a lot better than the way it was worded before.:D
Alright, today I decided to analyze what these purple expansion symbols might do and what they represent.
First off, we know that there are cards "suspended" between the time ebbing planes; that they are removed from the game until they are able to affect the current time. We also have offered the conjecture that they pass through this bluish colored field on their way onto the "playing field", if you get what I'm saying.
With the existence of the lotus, we also see that some of the cards which are suspended have flavor of previous cards and possibly mechanics. However, the flying creature that has suspend (errant thingy) proves that this is not always the case.
My conjecture is this. That the purple symbol represents cards that exists in a different time plane, quite possibly one that can't interact with things on the current plane. I mean, the set's name is time spiral and we know that something goes wrong in the time collisions that occur when the planes walkers fudge with things. It is very possible that cracks in time will occur through which these older "cards" will be able to be "viewed".
I personally do not believe that these cards will be legal in T2, but I do believe they will be literal reprints. I do agree that it is very possible for them to be playable in some way, possibly in a restricted way in T2, and it is also possible that they will errata some cards in their reprinted form. However, it would make more sense to me for them to be literal reprints only playable in older formats.
To supports this I don’t have much. We know wizards isn’t crazy about the secondary market prices for early cards. We also know that it would be impossible for wizards to make those cards available through any normal printing means, for that would break T2... well, a 4th symbol is defiantly not normal, and just coincidentally very flavorful with the current set/block.
Wizards has also said that there would never be another chronicles, well this would not be, it also gives them the opportunity to stimulate old players by making the entire set nostalgic while exciting new players with the prospect of access to old valuable cards. It would also further the playing fields for older magic formats, something Wotc has been interested in doing for a good while.
With the latest input of the orb, I see all the blatant references to old cards as fuel to my flame. Names like pendelhaven, ophidian, mishra; these all aren't reprints, but cards that will be heavily influenced by previous printings, printings that will more than likely see themselves redone with a purple symbol. Also it is evident that with the absence of anything mentioning akroma in the orb, and since we know that at the very least she will be referenced, there is no mention of the purple cards in the orb, or at the very least not all cards from TS are in the orb. This can also be lent to the assertion that the purple cards will not be directly related to T2.
One last point of conjecture is the fact that these supposed symbols will have no rarity. All will be of equal rarity, therefore foreshadowing reprints of when rarities didn't matter, aka. hymn to tourach, force of will, mana drain, etc.
Anyway, just my two cents; I hope I’m right because I would personally buy just about every box I could find and I know many more who would do the same. I loved invasion block, yet I believe this could end up being an even larger renaissance for magic, even if Wotc steps on some toes...
Its just not very good, esp not in the current meta. If you hit it late game for a "OMG super ball lightning", its getting bounced or countered. If you play it against husk at all it dies to ruskwalla. I guess if you waited until a control deck completely tapped out, or husk was in a perfect position to kill, or another aggro deck had no spot removal, first strike, and was within killing range; then i guess it would be a good threat.
Skizzik was better than this card, and demonfire will not be out played by it. If the card read "2R: Trample, Haste 4/1 Sac EOT" we would not be singing praises about this really soild draft uncommon.
Alright, I think some of you guys are missing the potential of the wurm.
The price tag of 5gg is somewhat daunting... if you had to play it on your turn. Any card that can be a huge threat (i.e. a 9/5 trampler w/haste since its instant playability) in control without sacrificing your ability to control away your opponents is diffently worth looking into. Not to mention this is essentially a tutorable threat that is also at instant speed, something control does not get very often.
With tribe-elder being the best cheap way to get him in play t2 and with him leaving the realm of legality soon, i believe it will really come down to the other options allowed in t2 for searching to desginate how good or bad the card will be.
As it stands now, if you turn 7 sac your elder on your opp. eot and play the wurm, worst case senario, they counter it; in which case you just gained card advantage as the card did not come from your hand, as well as their loss of a counter. Even more so, now they have less mana to mess with your turn allowing for other threats.
If you played it turn 8 and are holding a spell snare, then things get really sticky for them, as they will likely have to burn 4 mana and 2 counters to get rid of it.
Against aggro i feel the application is somewhat simpler... turns 1-6: control, turn 7 eot: control/wurm, turn 8 main phase/eot: another treat/wurm (i.e. turn 7 eot wurm, then you go and play sky swallower your turn 8)
Overall I feel it is a really good, well created card worth a bit of playtesting, I really hope R&D has follow-up good searching cards that will make this guy more than merely playable.
Oh, and Wirewood_Shadow, Thanks for the clear interpretations. I was going to undertake it myself, but you did a more than sufficent job. I would be highly highly highly surprized if anything other than what has been clarified will end up being the final ruling, unless wizards decides it is in fact too good, and then figures they can fudge their own rules a little. Anyway, thanks again for saving me the time.
The card pictures of other pros that we've seen don't have them looking stupid.... Know don't get me wrong, I think the idea is stupid and they should've done tokens or special alternate art fav. pro's cards or something (think alt. Intuition). However, I know a good amount of pros, and having a card of, say kai budde, how've I've played against wouldn't be bad, I might even pick one up for $0.50 or something.
As long they don't have kai doing naked jumping jacks (which they don't he's jsut got his arms crossed.) I'm okay with it.:smileup:
First of all, all of these aformentioned assesments are based on draft limited play.
Veteran Armorer - Top 3 pick easy. Also a possible filler in block WW.
Caregiver - Nice 1st drop with decent cheap ability. In draft, throwing away an already dead creature after Dmg on the stack to save another creature for only 1 mana is really solid.
Boros Fury-Shield - Good Combat trick, really only worth while if you play the R IMO, otherwise overcosted, IMO should have radience)
Faith's Fetters - Draft Bomb. Maybe not that strong but, IMO, top 5 pick for sure. Life swing, plus taking away their biggest threat = a more than likely win
Wojek Siren - Pretty good. Not as good as its made out to be earlier, IMO. Might see play in WW block, doubt in constructed. I Don't think in WW T2 you're going to want to save 1 mana for at most 4 more dmg or saving a creature, at most two creatures.
Leave No Trace, Sandsower, Divebomber Griffin - not too intresting. The griffin is a 3/2 flyer for less than 6cc, playable in draft. The others are just filler really.
Wojek Apothecary - This is one of the most mediocore cards I have seen. It is or course overcosted, but has an ok ability that can be a life-saver at times.
Auratouched Mage - All I have to say is, I'll be drafting it. I like the card. I don't think many people will be taking it, and it can be one hell of a body when you need it, possibly with a really good ability.
Seed Spark - Mid pick IMO. If they have good enchantments it will more than diffently be coming in the main draft deck. I think it'll play a bigger role in drafts combined with later sets.
Festival of the Guildpact - Just good. Cantrip with keeping your a$$ alive is a-okay in my book. Solid top 5 pick.
Chant of Vitu-Ghazi - Really high pick. Either 1, 2, or 3. I will win quite a few games because of this card. It turns a death swing into a victory march. I see it costing 4W at the most.
I.E. You have 4 creatures, he has 8. You're at 5 and he has 6 dmg coming through after blocks and 2 of your creatures would die. This cards says I gain 10+ life and prob. win next turn. Later games this card can also be a huge bluff point.
Ghosts of the Innocent - In order to be good I think it should be unblockable. Extremely overcosted, not a very good ability at all. Has a 2% chance of getting broken randomly. An easily fixable card, wish they had put more thought into it. I mean if it was flying and costed 1 less it would then be marginal, right now the only application is against burn decks if you're not already dead.
I did read and understand, and agree that in order to keep it simple they eliminated the possibility for the duality of implications involved with "as though".
And as for your statement
If you decide a Giant Spider can block Stone Spirit, than you must also decide, for the same reasons, that it can't block a Scryb Sprite.
I just disagree. Creatures with the ability to block things in the air from the ground would in no way be hampered in their ability to attack things on the ground.
In the case of stone spirit, how does it make sense to you that a random elf enchanted with whip silk could not not block a stone spirit through flavor or just common sense.
I agree with the fact of the rule being what it is due to the sheer inability for the casual magic player to struggle between the distinction; however, I disagree that there is in any way a feasible rules conflict/clash if the rule were to include the duality
From what I gather you do not use "in flavor" the same way that I do. I was saying that in the hypothetical circumstance I would think that the spider could block, I therefore saw the rule as such.
Secondly, I'm not sure what your information is here. Are you trying to say that I was arguing as to wether or not the creature had abilities that completly copy those of a flying creature, because then you must have gotten lost.
I had issue with the "as though" part of the ruling. Including "as though" into a descripion implys that something gains an ability without actually doing the action.
IE "He jerked back as though I had hit him."
IE "May block as though it had flying."
That is just the way I looked at it and if correct it would have made canopy useless. However, I've benn informed that there is a general ruling about this, and for whatever reason WotC decided it to be simpiler to make everything uniform (I won't woan until they take away the stack, heh *knocks on wood)
I don't think I'm really going to be convinced of a valid reason as to way the ruling is as such, but if you wish to try please make sure you read my previous posts and actually understand what I'm getting at, before I even begin to hope this conversation gets modded.
Ithink the point is that even a none control deck could run three colors fairly easily with the abundance of dual lands.
Thank you, you get a cookie! I was refering in my original post to the ease that a third and possibly fourth color can be added to virtually any deck with the abundance of painlands combined with the split/duel mana cards( IE r/w)
For instance you could make a r/w aggro deck and "steal" some "green" creatues through the new mana symbols without sacrificing anything for mana fixing; making it the ulitmate splash. Additionally you could throw in 8-12 of the new duel lands (4 of the actual two colors and 4-8 of the splashed color, IE r/w deck splashing green.. plays 4 r/w duels, 1-4 w/g duels, 1-4 g/r) in order to more tradionally splash for such creatures as our new loxodon-balothish guy.
Thanks for the input and keep them comming.. I'm interested primarily in your ideas regarding the previlance of green mana fixers in response to the relative ease of splashing...
I'm going to assume you are talking about Angel's Grace.... Ummmm, how is it anti-counterspell?
Anything copied with scepter can be countered cause scepter allows you to pay a copy of the spell that goes on the stack. All you have to do is put them at one, counter the copy and then apply lethal damage.
2. Mangara of Corondor (unreponsable)
3. Ancestral Vision
4. Cancel
5. Spiketail Drakeling
6. Telekinetic Sliver (could make of a for real hard sliver deck)
7. Walk the Aeons
8. Leige of the Pit (do not underestimate this guy)
9. Stronghold Overseer (what?)
10. Sudden Spoiling (Awww.. Simic Skyswallower is dead and you can't counter it)
11. Jaya
12. Magus of the Scroll
13. Sulfurous Blast
14. Wheel of Fate (are you joking? perfect for red?)
15. Gemhide Sliver (now utopia tree is very awul)
16. Yavimaya Driad
17. Saffi Eriksdotter (just really cool, wish Yosei still existed with it)
18. Chromatic Star
19 - 23. All of the totems
24. Locket of Yesterdays
25. Flagstones of Trokair (playing 4 doesnt hurt at all =D)
26. Vesuva
Sorry for getting carried away, but there is really no narrowing that list down.... this set is freaking amazing, honestly i had to struggle to keep it at that... an honorable mention goes to Fool's Demise due to its impact on limited.
Now for the Purps...
Resurrection
Sacred Mesa
Soltari Priest
Psionic BlastUnstable Mutation
Whispers of the Muse
Bad Moon
Withered Wretch
Browbeat
Desolation GiantCall of the Herd
Wall of Roots
Lightning Angel
Mystic Enforcer
Mystic Snake
Void (maybe it can finally be used right)
Mirari
Arena (just because i really cant believe it)
And im done... (no particular order to any of these really... that would take wayyy too long.
This might just be a mistype or we have the information wrong but it looks to me as *tap*, remove ~this~ and target permanent from the game. That makes its abilty to remove target permanent from the game part of the cost. Essentail the entire abilty is a cost and is therefore unresponable.
Is it just me or is this the first time wizards has allowed a card to manipulate your opponent's side of the board while paying the cost for a spell/ability? If there is supposed to be a ":" there instead of a ",", that would make he card even more broken because you could stack the ability and then bounce it.
As it stands it would appear that it is a split second vindicate on a stick, if it is a mistype, then it is a vindicate with buyback, either way a lot better than the way it was worded before.:D
First off, we know that there are cards "suspended" between the time ebbing planes; that they are removed from the game until they are able to affect the current time. We also have offered the conjecture that they pass through this bluish colored field on their way onto the "playing field", if you get what I'm saying.
With the existence of the lotus, we also see that some of the cards which are suspended have flavor of previous cards and possibly mechanics. However, the flying creature that has suspend (errant thingy) proves that this is not always the case.
My conjecture is this. That the purple symbol represents cards that exists in a different time plane, quite possibly one that can't interact with things on the current plane. I mean, the set's name is time spiral and we know that something goes wrong in the time collisions that occur when the planes walkers fudge with things. It is very possible that cracks in time will occur through which these older "cards" will be able to be "viewed".
I personally do not believe that these cards will be legal in T2, but I do believe they will be literal reprints. I do agree that it is very possible for them to be playable in some way, possibly in a restricted way in T2, and it is also possible that they will errata some cards in their reprinted form. However, it would make more sense to me for them to be literal reprints only playable in older formats.
To supports this I don’t have much. We know wizards isn’t crazy about the secondary market prices for early cards. We also know that it would be impossible for wizards to make those cards available through any normal printing means, for that would break T2... well, a 4th symbol is defiantly not normal, and just coincidentally very flavorful with the current set/block.
Wizards has also said that there would never be another chronicles, well this would not be, it also gives them the opportunity to stimulate old players by making the entire set nostalgic while exciting new players with the prospect of access to old valuable cards. It would also further the playing fields for older magic formats, something Wotc has been interested in doing for a good while.
With the latest input of the orb, I see all the blatant references to old cards as fuel to my flame. Names like pendelhaven, ophidian, mishra; these all aren't reprints, but cards that will be heavily influenced by previous printings, printings that will more than likely see themselves redone with a purple symbol. Also it is evident that with the absence of anything mentioning akroma in the orb, and since we know that at the very least she will be referenced, there is no mention of the purple cards in the orb, or at the very least not all cards from TS are in the orb. This can also be lent to the assertion that the purple cards will not be directly related to T2.
One last point of conjecture is the fact that these supposed symbols will have no rarity. All will be of equal rarity, therefore foreshadowing reprints of when rarities didn't matter, aka. hymn to tourach, force of will, mana drain, etc.
Anyway, just my two cents; I hope I’m right because I would personally buy just about every box I could find and I know many more who would do the same. I loved invasion block, yet I believe this could end up being an even larger renaissance for magic, even if Wotc steps on some toes...
Its just not very good, esp not in the current meta. If you hit it late game for a "OMG super ball lightning", its getting bounced or countered. If you play it against husk at all it dies to ruskwalla. I guess if you waited until a control deck completely tapped out, or husk was in a perfect position to kill, or another aggro deck had no spot removal, first strike, and was within killing range; then i guess it would be a good threat.
Skizzik was better than this card, and demonfire will not be out played by it. If the card read "2R: Trample, Haste 4/1 Sac EOT" we would not be singing praises about this really soild draft uncommon.
The price tag of 5gg is somewhat daunting... if you had to play it on your turn. Any card that can be a huge threat (i.e. a 9/5 trampler w/haste since its instant playability) in control without sacrificing your ability to control away your opponents is diffently worth looking into. Not to mention this is essentially a tutorable threat that is also at instant speed, something control does not get very often.
With tribe-elder being the best cheap way to get him in play t2 and with him leaving the realm of legality soon, i believe it will really come down to the other options allowed in t2 for searching to desginate how good or bad the card will be.
As it stands now, if you turn 7 sac your elder on your opp. eot and play the wurm, worst case senario, they counter it; in which case you just gained card advantage as the card did not come from your hand, as well as their loss of a counter. Even more so, now they have less mana to mess with your turn allowing for other threats.
If you played it turn 8 and are holding a spell snare, then things get really sticky for them, as they will likely have to burn 4 mana and 2 counters to get rid of it.
Against aggro i feel the application is somewhat simpler... turns 1-6: control, turn 7 eot: control/wurm, turn 8 main phase/eot: another treat/wurm (i.e. turn 7 eot wurm, then you go and play sky swallower your turn 8)
Overall I feel it is a really good, well created card worth a bit of playtesting, I really hope R&D has follow-up good searching cards that will make this guy more than merely playable.
Oh, and Wirewood_Shadow, Thanks for the clear interpretations. I was going to undertake it myself, but you did a more than sufficent job. I would be highly highly highly surprized if anything other than what has been clarified will end up being the final ruling, unless wizards decides it is in fact too good, and then figures they can fudge their own rules a little. Anyway, thanks again for saving me the time.
As long they don't have kai doing naked jumping jacks (which they don't he's jsut got his arms crossed.) I'm okay with it.:smileup:
Veteran Armorer - Top 3 pick easy. Also a possible filler in block WW.
Caregiver - Nice 1st drop with decent cheap ability. In draft, throwing away an already dead creature after Dmg on the stack to save another creature for only 1 mana is really solid.
Boros Fury-Shield - Good Combat trick, really only worth while if you play the R IMO, otherwise overcosted, IMO should have radience)
Faith's Fetters - Draft Bomb. Maybe not that strong but, IMO, top 5 pick for sure. Life swing, plus taking away their biggest threat = a more than likely win
Wojek Siren - Pretty good. Not as good as its made out to be earlier, IMO. Might see play in WW block, doubt in constructed. I Don't think in WW T2 you're going to want to save 1 mana for at most 4 more dmg or saving a creature, at most two creatures.
Leave No Trace, Sandsower, Divebomber Griffin - not too intresting. The griffin is a 3/2 flyer for less than 6cc, playable in draft. The others are just filler really.
Wojek Apothecary - This is one of the most mediocore cards I have seen. It is or course overcosted, but has an ok ability that can be a life-saver at times.
Auratouched Mage - All I have to say is, I'll be drafting it. I like the card. I don't think many people will be taking it, and it can be one hell of a body when you need it, possibly with a really good ability.
Seed Spark - Mid pick IMO. If they have good enchantments it will more than diffently be coming in the main draft deck. I think it'll play a bigger role in drafts combined with later sets.
Festival of the Guildpact - Just good. Cantrip with keeping your a$$ alive is a-okay in my book. Solid top 5 pick.
Chant of Vitu-Ghazi - Really high pick. Either 1, 2, or 3. I will win quite a few games because of this card. It turns a death swing into a victory march. I see it costing 4W at the most.
I.E. You have 4 creatures, he has 8. You're at 5 and he has 6 dmg coming through after blocks and 2 of your creatures would die. This cards says I gain 10+ life and prob. win next turn. Later games this card can also be a huge bluff point.
Ghosts of the Innocent - In order to be good I think it should be unblockable. Extremely overcosted, not a very good ability at all. Has a 2% chance of getting broken randomly. An easily fixable card, wish they had put more thought into it. I mean if it was flying and costed 1 less it would then be marginal, right now the only application is against burn decks if you're not already dead.
My hats off to the artists, and my drool on my sleve, hurry up prerelease
And as for your statement
I just disagree. Creatures with the ability to block things in the air from the ground would in no way be hampered in their ability to attack things on the ground.
In the case of stone spirit, how does it make sense to you that a random elf enchanted with whip silk could not not block a stone spirit through flavor or just common sense.
I agree with the fact of the rule being what it is due to the sheer inability for the casual magic player to struggle between the distinction; however, I disagree that there is in any way a feasible rules conflict/clash if the rule were to include the duality
Secondly, I'm not sure what your information is here. Are you trying to say that I was arguing as to wether or not the creature had abilities that completly copy those of a flying creature, because then you must have gotten lost.
I had issue with the "as though" part of the ruling. Including "as though" into a descripion implys that something gains an ability without actually doing the action.
IE "He jerked back as though I had hit him."
IE "May block as though it had flying."
That is just the way I looked at it and if correct it would have made canopy useless. However, I've benn informed that there is a general ruling about this, and for whatever reason WotC decided it to be simpiler to make everything uniform (I won't woan until they take away the stack, heh *knocks on wood)
I don't think I'm really going to be convinced of a valid reason as to way the ruling is as such, but if you wish to try please make sure you read my previous posts and actually understand what I'm getting at, before I even begin to hope this conversation gets modded.
Thank you, you get a cookie! I was refering in my original post to the ease that a third and possibly fourth color can be added to virtually any deck with the abundance of painlands combined with the split/duel mana cards( IE r/w)
For instance you could make a r/w aggro deck and "steal" some "green" creatues through the new mana symbols without sacrificing anything for mana fixing; making it the ulitmate splash. Additionally you could throw in 8-12 of the new duel lands (4 of the actual two colors and 4-8 of the splashed color, IE r/w deck splashing green.. plays 4 r/w duels, 1-4 w/g duels, 1-4 g/r) in order to more tradionally splash for such creatures as our new loxodon-balothish guy.
Thanks for the input and keep them comming.. I'm interested primarily in your ideas regarding the previlance of green mana fixers in response to the relative ease of splashing...