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  • posted a message on Bribery
    Okay...I think you guys are focusing way to much on the steal aspect. As I have iterated before, the fact bribery ‘steals’ is not THE ISSUE. 100% not the issue here at all. You said cloning or mind control? Well in the case of cloning or mind control, I don’t have to play out my cards. But that isn’t the issue.

    “If you don’t to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel”

    Bribery itself being over or underpowered is irrelavent to that point. My issue nowadays ISN’T that bribery ‘steals’ (there are 101 if not more ways to steal. Not as fair or efficient as bribery. But that beside the point).

    Is the fact if you don’t want to be bribed, you shouldn’t run stompy/goodstuff cards. If I was playing a mostly combo or synergistic combo deck I wouldn’t be bribed with few to no good utility/generic good stuff creatures.

    But that should be a choice not fostered in a sense by meta. (Meta important and dictates card choices don’t get me wrong). But what if I wanted to pull/play fun big stompy 10+ mana cards (which is exactly what my other main non-Sidisi EDH deck exactly is).

    Being told by someone “if you didn’t run (high value cmc creature cards capable of ending the game) you wouldn’t be bribed/the solution here is don’t run high value single target good stuff cards. And you’ll never be bribed!”

    Basically because a card that can steal and play directly a card from my deck for free exists, I should purposefully not run finishers in a non-combo, and deck which does not run x spells or finishers outside of x draw, only 1 haste outlet (and no hexproof or shroud outlet), only has 4 debatably 5 ways to ramp (1 Land, Salvela, Magnifying, Archive and Tempt with Discovery).

    My stuff being stolen is just part of the game/part of blue and black color pie. Someone telling me “Well if only ran bad card/4-6 mana ‘Normal’ stompy without high value single target goodstuff bribery cards, or instead made your win condition a win con the spot combo with multiple pieces” as a way to defend bribery being ‘fair’. Speaks more to mindset behind defense of bribery then the card itself.

    Which to be clear is my issue/reason for posting this thread. It isn’t because of bribery the card, exactly but the mindset that lays behind the defense of bribery. Essentially being “don’t run good cards”.

    So I should instead run jank or interchangeable combo pieces. Perhaps every deck I build should have a concentrated theme with no truly good stuff creature that can work outside of that theme? But then what if I happen to really like Collossai or Eldrazi, should I instead run Hand of Emerakul, or the original Collossai which required 7 mana to untap itself?

    That answer posits that you have other options. Now of course I could run Hand of Emerakul (or more legitimately Artisan) over Ulamog, or Kozi. Or run Gatekeeper Colossus over Blightsteel or Akros. But that answer also just sidesteps that in a multiplayer environment you do need to win too. The issue is to repeat not being bribed, but the defense being made for why bribe is fine.

    Which isn’t “control magic is part of the game”, which is an acceptable and true statement. And not what I take issue with, it’s “if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run (good cards/targets)” defense of bribery. If I don’t want to be bribed I shouldn’t ultimately be running anything akin to a 60 card green stompy deck?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Bribery
    It’s also in a deck that has no real ramp/very little ramp. Only 1 haste outlet and secondly, it’s a perfectly valid target to steal my blighsteel with various effects I never said it wasn’t. But I was also playing a deck which whole theme was partly big stompy collossai (now big colourless creatures).

    And secondly, regardless of if I was running Blightsteel or not (which is the point of EDH partly to run big stompy things), what isn’t in favor is tell players “don’t play big dumb stompy archtype because it could be taken from deck and used against you”.

    Like I am hearing “Well if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel” but actually reading “don’t run big stompy win condition cards like Blighsteel (Worldspine Wurm, various Eldrazi, the Praetors, the many Collossai etc) Because they could be bribery.

    That isn’t a mindset and espacially when someone main reason for a card like bribery is simply to make the point “you shouldn’t big stompy” instead claim “you should *****ty cards that are synergetistically a win condition but useless on their lonesome”. Your focusing on the mechanical aspect, like why shouldn’t I play a card because it’s being bribed?

    You guys keep trying to focus on “Well your salty you got blighsteeled/why should you be angry got killed by a card you were playing when you were one playing it”. To just reemphasis, I am not salty about being killed by own blighsteel.

    If I play a card like blighsteel, I fine with playing against a Blighsteel (which is also why I don’t play Sol Ring. I am not fine playing against Sol Ring so I won’t in my EDH decks). And let’s take apart what you said, “Run answers” you know like I said in the OP, “I know Homeward Path and more exist”.

    It’s not an issue of a card I am running being used against me there are 1001 answers to that. It’s the issue of being told “Well if you didn’t run (Big Stompy/Individual Powerful Cards not requiring Synergstic Themetic connection to work) you wouldn’t be bribed”.

    You see no issue with that statement and the ideology of someone who would genuine believe that and try to push that as the way someone should play EDH?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Bribery
    Quote from plushpenguin »
    I've played my fair share of goodstuff decks and I have nothing against anyone who wants to build something of the sort.

    However, you just gotta have some kind of plan for a Bribery and a Knowledge Exploitation targeting you. And if the opponent knows that you are playing a goodstuff deck, they are more likely to target you because you are more likely to have something relevant to the current situation.


    Which I have talked about already in my first post above. I know there are answers (Homeward Path for one). But telling someone “they shouldn’t build an EDH deck filled with stompy things so they don’t get briberied” is actively against the spirit of the format. Which is why I am posting this thread.

    And for the reanimate strategy is distinctly different from telling someone “they cannot/shouldn’t play x which format design to enable you to play because it could cheated out on you by your opponent”.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Bribery
    Kinda? More accurately the mindset of telling someone that as a defense of a card in a format meant to enabling the play of big stompy things like Blighsteel. The defense of bribery being “bribery wouldn’t be good if you didn’t run good creatures”. When running good creatures in this context generally means single high value stompy creatures like Blightsteel or absurd utility like Prophet and PrimeTime. It’s not good cards/creatures I play being played against me, it’s the mindset I find people used to defend bribery (don’t run good creatures/cards, and “oh it’s only as card as the table (meaning the individual power level of individual cards within a deck not the power level of the decks being played themselves). Both disingenuous for kind of environment commander/edh is meant to have.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Bribery
    Bribery

    The long story short, this thread was inspired by a discussion I had with a friend three years ago if bribery and bribery like cards should be legal. Here is the short and sweet version I was salty after he Briberied my Blighsteel then equipped Boots or Greaves, before swing to kill.

    Admittedly the following is true
    1) If I didn’t have a Blighsteel he couldn’t bribed it
    2) Killing me exiled said Blightsteel

    The closest comparison point admittedly here is Tinker, but the difference is tinker can admittedly be built around. And while existence of cards like bribery do not stop me from putting thing like Blightsteel certain decks no more than clones stop me from playing it.

    But I feels more than a tad awful. Sense unless I am in blue (or a semi niche answer or otherwise in other colors), or Homeward Path I don’t have much in a way to play around in-game. To reiterate I understand in-game solutions (Homeward Path, Flickers like Sojorner, various enchantments grant player hexproof, alongside counter spells. Or just plain removing the card via other means).

    What stood out to me in that convo, I was told “Well if you don’t want to be bribed, you shouldn’t play good cards like Blightsteel”. I would be lying if I didn’t try taking Blighsteel or not put other single high powered creatures that could end game in a non-combo manner and played more 4-6 mana standard midrange creatures, out of certain decks. But found I needed cards like Blightsteel and had to accept briberied being a thing. And I often find that exact answer often parroted, when someone complains about a card being briberied (or complaining about card that was bribed and told “you shouldn’t play [good] cards like [x] and you wouldn’t be bribed for them).

    The extension of the argument cards like bribery are only as powerful as the table they sit across from. Or more accurately it’s only as powerful as the strongest individual card power level in any given pod. And an ubiquitous existence of this card in a meta will definitely nudged players away from player cool “8+ mana win condition combat creatures” and into more combo-esque decks with interchangeable pieces that needs more than a piece to win on its own and eschewing one card “value/finisher” creatures. (Or admittedly playing them anyways, and add stuff like Homeward Path).

    Ultimately I am not favor of bribery in the format, and while a ban of bribery and various similar cards is unlikely. A ban of bribery, I think would make a statement of those kinds of cards AND in my opinion discredit or provide ammoniation against the anti-Timmy argument of “you shouldn’t play those cards if you don’t want them bribed against you”.

    I say anti-Timmy because Timmy’s exactly the players who are one enjoy playing these win condition big stompy creatures like Blightsteel and to some extent the ability to play said cards be it blighsteel or other overly big win conditon on a stick is the purpose of the format.

    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Sheldon's Thoughts on infinite combos
    All I have to say “don’t ban the good/overpowered/degenerate/etc combo pieces because people will just side grade”. So.....for clarity sake we shouldn’t ban a card like Griselbrand or more relevantly Prophet because YawWill/Necro and Seedborn Muse all exist?

    Before someone chimes in and says “Grisel/Prophet are both strictly/practical/actually/etc better than the comparison cards”, so we shouldn’t for comparison ban sake fast mana (Crypt/Ring/Vault) because it just means that people will play more signets/other rock. Or instead of playing 1CMC Tutors we will be playing slower 2 or maybe even 3 mana tutors. So on and so forth.

    Saying decks will replace x with y, eclipsed the fact that y was worse than x. Further that argument reduces one side to a weak strawman, without tackling the core argument.

    Maybe those cards actually being slightly better or otherwise is where their strength comes in. But with regards to game ending combos, what the issue? I find it lack of interaction or worse feeling like a ticking time bomb is on the table.

    But something else I personally did aggrieved at, is the various X&Y swords. I am not saying these swords are overpowered or broken. Just I have often more than one game felt they wrecked the game for me personally. Justly or unjustly? That a different debate (And bias aside I will be the first one to say, that to reiterate they are fair and justly wrecked my game due to how I setup my color density and otherwise).

    But it leaves me a similar feeling of it’s just a ticking time bomb. And that unless I draw an artifact removal, it’s just to reiterate for me, non-interaction. That is when combos start feeling bad. Which is not something as a community is easily possible to regulate.

    What is regulatable are cards roaming free like Sol Ring, Crypt and Vault. The best answer I heard for those is late game bad topdeck, or how due to variance your unlikely to see them in the early 3-4 turns anyways. Permanent fast mana, that is basically unable to be reasonably and efficiently answered, or even answered in a way that doesn’t cause groaning inwardly. But I am going on an complete rant.

    Summary;
    Bad “Combo” is when you are feeling of powerless or unable to answer. Not always the combo itself. Perfectly fair set of cards like Sword of X&Y are very similar in that regard. It’s important that while it’s unregulatable it’s going happen regardless of circumstance. It should be something discussed by the community.

    Secondly, just because someone has or there is available a downgrade sidegrade. Is NOT a good excuse for why a card shouldn’t be on the list. Because if it’s a better then x card why is it better than x card that replacing y card with x card means that no discernible change has happened. I’d ask you rhetorically to replace y with x that case in those decks and see what does (or does not change as the case may be).
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Should WotC Let EDH Players "Vote" on Themes?
    So....well a few things to note about the reference poll. It was talking about next December, Konami will be releasing a structure deck to support a selected archtype.

    The closest equivalent to MtG is to my understanding is the new guild decks (or that 75 dollar modern deck. Price Point more comparable to Guild Kits, at 20 v 12 dollar) These decks are given around 7-11 new cards depending on theme, need and more so.

    Now what should be noted, is your reference of what is called archtype xenophobia is far more complicated then archetypes being no bueno with each other.

    One of the options on the poll itself, was an example of that PKFire, two almost unrelated archetypes due to mechanics work together divinely. The deck that won (Shaddolls) is famous for easy hybridization (the archtype lacks xenophobia clauses and the various effects of the archtype trigger off what would be MtG equivalent to dies/discard/mill (as effect). Back to the topic, structure decks are often crafted as budget competitive (buying 2-3 of any one structure will get you the competitive tools you need to play at a local).

    Through an older poll by Konami is more relevant, a poll for new link monsters. Specifically a poll for which theme should get an in theme link monster. It was held by Jump (the impetus was the change to New Master Rules and introduction of both EMZ and Link monsters which badly neutered older decks. So the poll was essentially asking what fan favorite archtype/deck wanted to be brought into modern era).

    The advantage of that, was by Jump hosting/doing the poll and not Konami, Jump could slide the card into a promo slot. And not just trying to work around or fit it in a card set. Which even mob mentality aside, and your individual faith in our collective decision making process. Is not something that MtG can easily replicate, due to that fact. The closest/easiest way is something like Modern Horizons or a Core Set. But even then easier said than done.

    And personally speaking? I think it’s a good idea. Essentially it’s just asking what players will spend their hard earned cash on. Or what they want out of the game. But yeah to reiterate something;

    Structure Decks (most recent poll) are a gateway drug to competitive, and also provide pressure valves for reprint/card price. Meaning that archtype xenophobia aside, there is already a market for the deck regardless of theme. Second certain archtypes, hybrid very well with other cards and decks. And the one that won this poll is especially famous for that trait (it’s a built in feature to the archtype).

    Jump Promos the other major avenue, YGO uses for these popularity promos represent a method for the game to introduce these cards without specific set dedication (or MtG case, needing to decide how build around draft with x card in mind unless it’s mythic). Jump Promos are also infamous for....well let’s say Jump needs to sell its subscriptions and magazines. And Yugioh promos are important to staying in the black.

    MtG doesn’t really have its own stand alone structure deck style sets (Guild Kits style products long term might change that), similar to structure and doesn’t have a similar relationship to a magazine like Shonen Jump. So if MtG did do something like this I’d be wary for how they well print these cards. My 2 cents.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Is Magic Attendance and Sales dropping?
    I forgot to respond to folks response to me earlier, pardon super late response. But the last big wave of new players grew ‘up’ these last 4 years and now know themselves packs are bad to buy. Worse Packs don’t have a reason to be bought. The example with YGO is that even themed packs are likely to have something ‘useful’ to you as a player at common slots for constructed.

    When you see folks go “go for EDH” think “Go for a reasonably casual (Competitive) 60 Cards Deck”. More cards Satyr Wayfinders and Grey Merchant (Yes I know Grey Merchant was in a T1 Deck). Common cards which are ‘useful’. I think Colt during his discussion of the tribal limited, hit the issue Square on head.

    Packs don’t have a reason to be bought, because you is just too much chaff. And players? If they are buying, their buying singles. Like everyone tells them too.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Is Magic Attendance and Sales dropping?
    The way to handle to single online sellers, is make ‘packs’ worth buying. It’s how YGO does it (for better or worse), I can buy 10-20 Packs of YGO and most cases make a functional deck. Teir 1? Unlikely, but functional yes. And I don’t open a pack and see “Oh a 2/2 Bear with non-relavent ability” I more often see “2/1 Deathtoucher with Flash for 2!”. And yes I know Ambush Viper is a common.

    What it means is that I don’t open a pack and immidaitely feel bad. Just the other day I bought some packs, and pulled several useful (not monetarily expensive) commons, a Squadron Hawk-type Card, a dragon that summons a dragon from deck if my opponent activates an effect, some solid imported Japanese Exclusive Cards. And a generic monster basically mandatory for modern YGO Water Decks; all at the common rarity.

    There were a few other cards, something that summons itself if 5 monsters in grave with unique names and no repeats. So on and so forth. None of those cards are teir one competitive (Okay that water monster is) but all of them feel like they have a purpose. The Squadron Dragon, is intended to be used with a higher rarity or mythic. However it also perfectly and reasonable functional with that other common I pulled. In fact both are same level so I can meld them in mtg terms.

    The newest set? Of MtG, the new cards are so incredibly xenophobic/tribal, while that isn’t to say YGO cards aren’t (those dragon cards I mentioned only work with dragons). But that Highlander and OCG exclusive cards I pulled, while clearly meant for certain decks. One of them triggers their effect off being sent to graveyard by any card effect not just in-themed ones. The Highlander can be used generically in a lot of decks because Graves modulation is common and a lot of YGO Decks by nature are often puesdo Singleton.

    This all goes back to, I buy a pack, even if I lose money, the packs come with cards that aren’t trash. MTG, the focus on draft, and more has lost the idea you’re buying packs to ‘boost’ your deck. Instead your buying a glorfied board games.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Four leaked cards including Angrath
    Not sure if anyone else mentioned it but his +1 and -3 are basically FauxVielLilly. For 2 more mana you get a one sided discard that deals damage and a sacrifice ability that deals damage and/or two for one
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Goodbye duel decks hello challenger decks
    I am just explaining how Yugioh Structure Decks work. Which like it or not, but YGO has sold more cards than MtG has. And is in a overall healthier situation than MtG, but that is a tangent and unrelated to the thread itself.

    My point is that when folks are comparing YGO Structure Decks to MtG decks like Challenger or Duel Decks. The reason YGO Structure Deck works are percisely because 2-3 of them are a fully competitive deck. And often stuffed with value.

    However these cards are also cheaper on the secondary market. Espacially around initial release. While their is a dramatic price job generally. Pot of Desires original printing worth 10 (down from 50) compared to its megatin version worth 1-3. So the original card generally maintains its price over the reprint
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Goodbye duel decks hello challenger decks
    Quote from Cereberus632 »
    Warmachine something else I should mention, these structure decks are explicitly meant for franchised players. Or player who left the hobby and seeking to come back. So selling them with the understanding of needing to buy 2-3 of them is something far more acceptable. Also their is a huge difference, in buy 2-3 12 dollar decks and 2 30 dollar decks. Espacially when in the 12 dollar decks even the chaff cards can be quite helpful


    I like your idea in theory. My problem is that in function I don't think it would work that way. 12 dollars of chaff cards are just that, 12 dollars of cards that have no monetary value because they have no play value as well. I could have bought 4 alike Intro Decks from any set in the last decade, combined the best cards, and still would have had a crappy Standard deck. You, me or anyone else would probably be hard pressed to design a 12 dollar Intro deck that would be viable at FNM or a small Standard Constructed Event when combined with a 2nd or 3rd deck of the same. They would more than likely all have to be mono colored. Money comes in the form of lands many a time. That 12 bucks could be eaten up by just 2 lands. Again I like the idea in theory. But I think Wizards would have to print better chaff for this to work in practice. I see no sign of them doing this. If you have the time pitch me a deck idea from Standard, 60 cards, $12 of value and we can break it down or see if its even viable. If not, its okay, it would be time intensive.


    It is when those chaff cards are things like lighting strike, fatal push, aether hub, check lands and that years mana dork etc. Yugioh ‘Chaff’ Cards are generic, playable cards that are usable in every deck. Which is why those 12 dollar structure decks are viable and able to be used if you bought 2-3 of them.

    And for those who complain about speculators, sell them at big box stores and give them a unique set symbol.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Goodbye duel decks hello challenger decks
    Warmachine something else I should mention, these structure decks are explicitly meant for franchised players. Or player who left the hobby and seeking to come back. So selling them with the understanding of needing to buy 2-3 of them is something far more acceptable. Also their is a huge difference, in buy 2-3 12 dollar decks and 2 30 dollar decks. Espacially when in the 12 dollar decks even the chaff cards can be quite helpful
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Goodbye duel decks hello challenger decks
    Just to make an aside for those discussing YGO Structure Decks, they close around 12 dollars and are mostly Singleton. Generally they come with several cards from previous years that are vaguely on theme and worth 10-15 dollars on release. However the basic idea is that these decks are “structure” decks. They provide a structure to a deck, and they need to be filled out with other cards. The simplest way to do this, is by buying 2-3 of the same structure deck.

    That deck is equivalent and playable at the YGO Version of FNM. Three particular decks within the last five years provided the basis for competitive Deck (M&M/Pendulum, Domain Monarch and D/D/D). The biggest difference is these decks printed new cards, meant to fill in or plug the gaps of their respective archtypes.

    Link Strike, while more of a starter follows these same principles. Providing several older cards that were in the 10-15 dollar range a couple years ago. The cover cards providing the basis for several competitive decks by the virtue of being super generic.

    Those are the kind of decks, that the challenger decks will be equivalent too.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Wizards needs to own Commander with some format friendly rulings
    In regards of allowed vs not allowed commanders, on some level I'd rather any creature be allowed to be a Commander. One of the most annoying aspects of EDH for me personally, is I am unable really able to build around my favorite card; Underworld Cerberus. The reason I love the card is he is a Grave Hate and Grave Matters all at the same time. You cannot really run most reanimation spells, and your limited with what removal spells you can and cannot play. But he is all grave protection. It truly a fascinating card.

    This isn't to say said card couldn't result in dumb things, sense his interaction with Commander rules, makes his death ability reusable. It wouldn't fix everything, see Brothers Yamizaki and the shadows, Gisela and Bruna. Or the various totally not Legendary Creatures, Legendary Creatures (see Genju). However it would mean that we are no longer waiting for certain archetypes to get explicit support with Legendary Creatures (U/R Artifacts for example). The other issue is that it makes troublesome creatures, that aren't legendary, Prophet of Kruphix when it was legal, all the worse.

    I guess comes down to as is often said 'ask your playgroup' and 'don't be an ass'. I think personally if a card became a known problem, Commander such as Narset. It would become pseudo banned, by many playgroups anyways even with that kind of rule change. I will admit, its partly because I do just really want to build an EDH deck around Underworld Cerberus, sense its a card that doesn't really fit into constructed 60 card. And casual 60 has died, replaced by Commander. So take that for what it is. (Through I will admit that Dwarf Onslaught Legend, plays similarly at least aesthetically. But the issue is for me, he doesn't provide as interesting deckbuilding questions Cerberus does).


    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
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