This Jund list went 6-1 on a Modern Challenge yesterday. I don’t like the 5x Fastlands with the 4x BBE’s. 8x 1cmc removal in the 75 is interesting. Other than that a pretty standard list.
Why no Nihil Spellbomb in the main right now? It seems very applicable for the meta, cantrips, and helps Delirium/Goyf. I haven’t seen it in any lists so I guess I’m missing something.
Why no Grim Flayer in any lists, especially straight Jund lists? The deck seems really threat-light. Makes me nervous. Sure, Rampager and Wraith can technically become threats too, but how often does that happen?
I think the reason you see Spellbombs in the maindeck of the bigger B/G/x decks is because they need to run them in order to beat the decks abusing the graveyard right now, while Traverse Shadow really doesn't. Your clock is so good that you can win some games without any graveyard hate at all, you really just need graveyard hate to guarantee you can win the damage race.
I would run Flayer if the shape of the meta made my creature removal worse, but as it is I would rather have the extra removal spell than the first Flayer.
Bitterblossom seem decent in a Copter build with Flayer/Goyf. Throw it away with Copter or Lili if you don’t need it for two hard-to-get card types in the yard.
I’m glad to hear Foothills should be a passable placeholder. I’m going to run both lists for awhile. Stubby-D seems really good. I’m tired of Thoughtseizes not handling top-decked CoCos/Scapeshifts/Karns/Terminus/etc., ya know?
I do have a couple more questions:
Why no Nihil Spellbomb in the main right now? It seems very applicable for the meta, cantrips, and helps Delirium/Goyf. I haven’t seen it in any lists so I guess I’m missing something.
Why no Grim Flayer in any lists, especially straight Jund lists? The deck seems really threat-light. Makes me nervous. Sure, Rampager and Wraith can technically become threats too, but how often does that happen?
Also, something non-related, I like that Radiant Flames can hit for 4 against Thalia decks. It’s fringe but cool, and I bet it’s clutch when it happens.
Alright, so I ordered everything I need except for the Polluted Deltas. Unfortunately the list I was looking at when I said all I was missing was the DS’s and the U Shocklands was THIS ONE that didn’t play any Deltas (and played 4x Verdants, 4x Mires, and 3x Foothills instead), I’m assuming as a budget decision. I didn’t realize it at the time.
I could order the Deltas now, but I kinda already pushed my budget limits. I bought a second Liliana, the Last Hope, the fourth Leyline of the Void (I needed that one anyway, I thought I could get by with three because the Hollow One decks were only running three back when I purchased those), and a fourth Lorwyn Thoughtseize (I only ever needed three at most for Jund. I have Theros TS’s, but there’s no way I’m running mismatched cards or even newer printings of cards in a deck I care about). Those cards, plus the DS’s and old U Shocklands, kinda maxed me out $$$wise.
So, with that said, I’m going to try both Jund DS and 4c DS, and if I find that the Wooded Foothills are just too bad in 4c, I may trade some stuff into my LGS for 4x Khans Polluted Deltas as a placeholder until I can spring for the Onslaught Deltas. Do you think the Foothills will be a big setback to my manabase? I can’t stand playing suboptimal lists.
I can’t lie, I watched some videos last night (Holy s*** Hoogland is almost unbearable to listen to sometimes) and Stubborn Denial seems really strong (and like you said, fetching for U really just forwards our plan of getting below 13 life, so there’s really not a downside). I’m motivated to play 4c based on what I saw and per your suggestion, Siegel. BUT... straight Jund Shadow would make me feel a little closer to home like I was just playing an Aggro-oriented classic Jund list. And between that familiarity, not needing Deltas, and because of DeFish’s suggestion, I’m also inclined to play that version. So I will try both, and do more research in the meantime.
I do really want to know though, so give it to me straight, how bad is Wooded Foothills in 4c? Is it going to give me a skewed impression of the deck? Here is that list again that I was initially going off of, for reference.
And I really appreciate the input, by the way. Both of y’all.
Sweet. Thanks a lot for taking the time to write that up. I appreciate it. That gives me something to build off of. And I love flex/undecided slots. I’m a brew player at heart, but I like to win (or maybe I don’t, I do love Midrange decks), and I know I can’t/won’t ever devote enough time to put in the reps and come up with the next Humans deck (every deck started as a brew, right?), so tier decks with a lot of wiggle room for personal preference and meta calls are a happy medium for me. I’m gonna put in that order. I’m stoked. Thanks again, man.
@Spsiegel1987, can I see your 75? I realized all I’m missing from playing 4c is the 4x DS and a couple of U shocklands. I have everything else. I imagine it’ll take awhile to get the hang of, but that’s usually the fun part. I’d like to see what you’re running and if you don’t mind, an explanation of some of the particulars and personal/meta choices. I have some studying to do. I’m about to go back to the first page and read the Primer. I just woke up this morning and decided on a whim that I’d give it a whirl. Haven’t had a chance to read up on it yet.
And I noticed some straight Jund lists on Goldfish. I’m guessing 3c helps with consistency? How crucial is Stubborn Denial?
Man, his decks always look so much more different than I expect. No Anger in the side either? Sure would’ve helped that Humans MU. The plays are always so tight though. He makes the deck look good.
Meh, I don’t see how talking about banlist cards within the context of how they would affect Jund if we had access to them or how they would affect Jund’s MU’s if they had access to them is any kind of faux pas in a Jund thread.
On a different note, what about Firespout as the third Anger of the Gods in the side? It’s extremely easy to target just fliers, and it’s just as easy to hit the whole board. It’s important reiteration of AotG that dodges Meddling Mage. And I like that I can knock off a bunch of spirits without hitting BBE or Bob or Scooze or whatever else I don’t want to do 3 damage to. Obviously it’s quite a bit worse than AotG against Dredge and a couple of others, but it’s better against Spirits.
This LE list that went 5-0 had 4x Sin Prodder in the board. I’ve never seen that tech before; maybe y’all have. What MU’s would you side it in against?
There’s been an observable cycle for awhile now. The conversation is of minor deckbuilding considerations like manabases and SB cards and the like, then someone points out some very apparent and valid shortcomings of Jund (if it wasn’t you it would be someone else), then the apparent lack of card selection leads to (sometimes fun) brainstorming about a Looting build, until someone or everyone simultaneously bursts that bubble with the also valid point that it would just be a worse Looting/graveyard deck than the others. To me the fun part comes after that when, defeated after exhaustively looking at currently available options, we talk about what cards theoretically need to be printed or unbanned to give us an edge. Still, while all of this is happening, people are winning games and placing in large tournaments with good ol’ regular Jund lists.
Graveyard creature, a mana accelerant for turn 2 LOTV and turn 3 BBE...
POD has the risk of being too good
Punishing Fire invalidates an entire archetype.
Sorry if I derailed this thread, I know you guys were having productive talk before I listed my grievances
There’s a lot of really solid artifact removal that didn’t exist when Pod was around. Mainboard stuff. I don’t see it being a problem.
I won’t try and argue the same for PF and DRS. I will jokingly point out that they (PF and DRS) destroy each other, so they shouldn’t be a problem if both are unbanned, right?
All I’m saying is I think the format could actually absorb every one of those unbannings, not that it would actually be a great or optimal idea. Twin would be a nice unban though, for real. It would simultaneously put a hurtin’ on these linear Aggro decks that are hurting us and give us (and Control) something to prey on. And it’s a joke that SFM is still locked up.
I don’t think you derailed anything. We talk about the same stuff all the time. Seriously. It’s nice to break it up every once in awhile. Wild speculation can be fun.
Unban Stoneforge Mystic, Punishing Fire, Deathrite Shaman, Birthing Pod, and Splinter Twin. I’m ready. Let’s do this. But all joking aside, I think the format could handle all that just fine. I’m serious. It would go nuts for a second there, but it would stabilize. And if something got out of hand and stayed out of hand, just clean it up on a subsequent ban-list update like Golgari Grave-Troll.
With Bant Spirits (AKA Spooky Company) on the rise, is it a good time to dust off Thundermaw Hellkite for the sideboard?
I thought about this too. The problem is, we need to have some permanent effects on the board state, and Thundermaw isn’t going to kill much, if anything. We need to kill spirits, and/or block spirits. The dragon will ensure 5 damage gets through, but not much else. By turn 5 I feel like we’ll be too much on the back foot already to go offensive with something like Thundermaw. Maybe I’m looking at it all wrong, I dunno. I haven’t playtested it so I don’t even have anecdotal evidence, much less empirical evidence, to support that stance. I think I like Stormbreath Dragon more than Thundermaw Hellkite in that role. It has protection from most of the spirits so it makes a good defensive creature as well as a substantial threat (especially when monstrous) and it’s immune to Path to Exile and Reflector Mage, their only forms of removal and pseudo-removal. But I dunno, maybe I’m all wrong and tapping down their team and swinging for the fences with a Goyf and Thundermaw is enough after playing an aggressive game or getting in enough chip damage during prior turns.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks!
I do have a couple more questions:
Why no Nihil Spellbomb in the main right now? It seems very applicable for the meta, cantrips, and helps Delirium/Goyf. I haven’t seen it in any lists so I guess I’m missing something.
Why no Grim Flayer in any lists, especially straight Jund lists? The deck seems really threat-light. Makes me nervous. Sure, Rampager and Wraith can technically become threats too, but how often does that happen?
Also, something non-related, I like that Radiant Flames can hit for 4 against Thalia decks. It’s fringe but cool, and I bet it’s clutch when it happens.
I could order the Deltas now, but I kinda already pushed my budget limits. I bought a second Liliana, the Last Hope, the fourth Leyline of the Void (I needed that one anyway, I thought I could get by with three because the Hollow One decks were only running three back when I purchased those), and a fourth Lorwyn Thoughtseize (I only ever needed three at most for Jund. I have Theros TS’s, but there’s no way I’m running mismatched cards or even newer printings of cards in a deck I care about). Those cards, plus the DS’s and old U Shocklands, kinda maxed me out $$$wise.
So, with that said, I’m going to try both Jund DS and 4c DS, and if I find that the Wooded Foothills are just too bad in 4c, I may trade some stuff into my LGS for 4x Khans Polluted Deltas as a placeholder until I can spring for the Onslaught Deltas. Do you think the Foothills will be a big setback to my manabase? I can’t stand playing suboptimal lists.
I can’t lie, I watched some videos last night (Holy s*** Hoogland is almost unbearable to listen to sometimes) and Stubborn Denial seems really strong (and like you said, fetching for U really just forwards our plan of getting below 13 life, so there’s really not a downside). I’m motivated to play 4c based on what I saw and per your suggestion, Siegel. BUT... straight Jund Shadow would make me feel a little closer to home like I was just playing an Aggro-oriented classic Jund list. And between that familiarity, not needing Deltas, and because of DeFish’s suggestion, I’m also inclined to play that version. So I will try both, and do more research in the meantime.
I do really want to know though, so give it to me straight, how bad is Wooded Foothills in 4c? Is it going to give me a skewed impression of the deck? Here is that list again that I was initially going off of, for reference.
And I really appreciate the input, by the way. Both of y’all.
And I noticed some straight Jund lists on Goldfish. I’m guessing 3c helps with consistency? How crucial is Stubborn Denial?
Dat Choke off the top tho.
Man, his decks always look so much more different than I expect. No Anger in the side either? Sure would’ve helped that Humans MU. The plays are always so tight though. He makes the deck look good.
Well s***. Scratch that idea. I did not think about that.
On a different note, what about Firespout as the third Anger of the Gods in the side? It’s extremely easy to target just fliers, and it’s just as easy to hit the whole board. It’s important reiteration of AotG that dodges Meddling Mage. And I like that I can knock off a bunch of spirits without hitting BBE or Bob or Scooze or whatever else I don’t want to do 3 damage to. Obviously it’s quite a bit worse than AotG against Dredge and a couple of others, but it’s better against Spirits.
There’s a lot of really solid artifact removal that didn’t exist when Pod was around. Mainboard stuff. I don’t see it being a problem.
I won’t try and argue the same for PF and DRS. I will jokingly point out that they (PF and DRS) destroy each other, so they shouldn’t be a problem if both are unbanned, right?
All I’m saying is I think the format could actually absorb every one of those unbannings, not that it would actually be a great or optimal idea. Twin would be a nice unban though, for real. It would simultaneously put a hurtin’ on these linear Aggro decks that are hurting us and give us (and Control) something to prey on. And it’s a joke that SFM is still locked up.
I don’t think you derailed anything. We talk about the same stuff all the time. Seriously. It’s nice to break it up every once in awhile. Wild speculation can be fun.
I thought about this too. The problem is, we need to have some permanent effects on the board state, and Thundermaw isn’t going to kill much, if anything. We need to kill spirits, and/or block spirits. The dragon will ensure 5 damage gets through, but not much else. By turn 5 I feel like we’ll be too much on the back foot already to go offensive with something like Thundermaw. Maybe I’m looking at it all wrong, I dunno. I haven’t playtested it so I don’t even have anecdotal evidence, much less empirical evidence, to support that stance. I think I like Stormbreath Dragon more than Thundermaw Hellkite in that role. It has protection from most of the spirits so it makes a good defensive creature as well as a substantial threat (especially when monstrous) and it’s immune to Path to Exile and Reflector Mage, their only forms of removal and pseudo-removal. But I dunno, maybe I’m all wrong and tapping down their team and swinging for the fences with a Goyf and Thundermaw is enough after playing an aggressive game or getting in enough chip damage during prior turns.