You're trying to reinvent the deck a little too much, I think. If Jund restructures that much it'll be become Jund Loam because the deck of choice for Jund, not this.
I wonder if Wrenn could even be a 3 of. He synergies nicely with LOTV on curve. Turn 2 play him, turn 3 LOTV it up. Something like -1 Land, -1 Bob, and -1 of something else. It'll deal with the "Do I want to play 4 Bobs with 4 BBE's in the deck."
Wrenn also works nicely in that little creatures swarm the board one can be pinged away and the other could be edicted. Replacing Bob straight up is not viable though, he's still our best CA in the deck.
I also like the idea that Raging Ravine's could come back to our hands in grindy matches.
I wouldn't add Grim Flayer, he's only making your deck super soft to GY hate at that point.
Now that you mention it, Bolt/Push into Wrenn into Lili does sound really badass against creature heavy MU’s.
What third card would we lose for the third Wrenn?
And does this card make Lili(tLH) completely obsolete? Kinda seems like it does. He pings and gives value like she does, and at one mana less (which is a huge difference). I understand they’re not exactly the same, but still...
I’m happy UW Control isn’t the only fair deck getting shiny new (and smaller) Walkers.
Came here to say I think The new walker will be a great addition. That’s some seriously diversified utility and a lot of damn value at 2cmc. You’re pretty much guaranteed to get some value out of it by getting your fetchland back or pinging their turn-1 critter. It’s the mana cost that makes it such a hit. I could definitely see it as a 2-of.
Does Pillage replace Fulminator? I know we can’t recur it like we can with Fulminator, but how often does that happen anyway? I think it’d be nice to cover both angles like that with one card. Plus the “can’t be regenerated” clause can make all the difference in the world, as can the fact that it can hit any land, not just nonbasic.
Edit: Also, thoughts on Plague Engineer (I’m loving all these throwback shoutouts, by the way)? Is it enough of an impact by turn-3, or is -1/-1 not gonna cut it? And while I’m on the subject, let me just so that I truly, strongly hope we see an uptick in tribal decks. The Tolkien-loving nerd in me loves the classic fantasy races (and not-so-classic ones like Slivers) and it’s that same nerdy love that attracted me to this game in the first place. I’m so happy they’re finally throwing some of these wonderful tribes a bone. I am freakin’ stoked about this set!
Oh, and one last thing. I’ve never played Slivers, but I started collecting Magic cards as a kid when Tempest was the newest set out, so I certainly have an affinity for them. I hope they tarred and feathered whatever dip**** came up with those humanoid slivers from M14 or whatever set that was. I’m relieved that they’ve returned their morphology to its original, sleek, no-eyed form. Good golly, those humanoid slivers looked so ******* dumb.
You could get Mimic out of the yard by saccing an Aether Vial or just by using Claim // Fame. I already intend on using Claim//Fame because it pairs really nicely with Warren Instigator (who just got a whole lot better with Goblin Matron), as well as quite a few of our other cards (looking at you Munitions Expert, Goblin Cratermaker, etc.)
Another Goblin spoiled today, and I doubt it’ll be the last. Finally getting thrown some bones.
Now that we have tutoring in the form of Matron and Goblin Engineer, is it worth including a singleton Murderous Redcap and a Metallic Mimic or two to always threaten the combo? I already planned on including Claim//Fame anyway since it plays so nicely with so many of our cards, and that’ll give me another way (besides saccing an Aether Vial) to get Mimic out of the yard. It may all be too cumbersome, but I’m going to at least brew on it a bit.
I’m so excited Gobbos are finally getting some love.
Looking at this flood of lists that just got added to mtggoldfish (IQ’s, MOCS, Leagues, etc.), something stuck out to me. There are a ton of Walkers being played right now. It looks like UW Control has turned into a Superfriends deck. I’m looking hard at two cards.
One is The Elderspell as a hoser for particularly UW Control. There are other lists I’m seeing where it’d be a relevant SB inclusion, but for that Azorius MU, it could very possibly be a blowout, and that’s why I’m looking seriously at it for my SB if these super PW heavy lists become the norm. You’re sure to have at least one target for it. Nailing two Walkers simultaneously would be insane value. Hitting one with a Lili out would be sweet. Destroying two walkers and adding 4 loyalty to your Lili would be GG.
The other is Abrupt Decay. Decay is looking super relevant right now. Lots of 3cmc Walkers, and all kinds of pesky artifacts and enchantments. The can’t be countered clause is obviously huge against Control (more-so than ever with all these new Walkers they want to protect), and it’s nice against Infect too, which seems to be on the rise.
Anyway, I’m curious if y’all’ve seen these lists and have drawn similar conclusions.
With the new mulligan rules, is anyone thinking about running 8x Leylines? I know people have done it from time to time in LE. The odds of finding one or both are pretty high. Sanctity just doesn’t seem nearly as necessary as The Void right now though. Still, I wonder if we’ll see an uptick in combo since it’ll be a little easier to dig for pieces. Just curious what y’all’s thoughts are. I live under a rock, so I just found out about the rule change.
Do we like Leyline of the Void more now with the new mulligan rules? I’ve been living under a rock and just found out about the change. The odds of finding one are pretty dang good if you really wanted to dig (i.e., 78.3% for a mull to 5 and 87% to 4). Is that enough to convert any of y’all that were not in the LotVoid camp, or are you going to stick to your other hosers? Obviously it’ll be just as easy to find them too, though they won’t be present on turn-0. I’m just curious what y’all think about it. It scares me a little that combo can dig like that though.
Fair enough. I can dig that. I’ll probably playtest it in my regular Jund list just to satiate my curiosity, but your Bob scenario does make a very valid point. An opponent playing BBE into, say, Bob is another good example of a problematic scenario for Triumph. They don’t care if they sac their BBE and keep their Bob or Goyf or whatever, they’ve already gotten their value out of the berserker, and get to keep their best creature.
I would play Liliana's Defeat before Liliana's Triumph. And I'd still likely not use either.. But at least defeat has applications against BG rock & GDS, both of which can be problematic. There is literally no archetype in the Tier 1-2 range of modern that Triumph is useful against, except maybe Griahoalbrand, and as mentioned we are favored there anyway.
Arcanist is an interesting card but likely too slow.
Stephen Snelson back in top 8 (SCG IQ) with a jund list, main deck Surgical Extraction. I really like his Sideboard, including 2 additional Surgical, 3 Anger of the Gods, and even a single Ravenous Trap. Seems to be going all-in for the Dredge match up. list for reference
I’m getting off topic for this thread, as I can see and agree with the point made earlier about our problematic MU’s being go-wide strategies, which Triumph doesn’t address. So as far as JDS is concerned, yeah, Triumph probably isn’t something we’re interested in. But for other Liliana decks, I don’t know if I agree that it has such a limited use as y’all would suggest. I don’t know what is considered Tier 1-2 anymore, but I’m pretty sure that if we’re throwing such a seldom seen deck as Grishoalbrand in there, then Bogles and Infect can be included as well, which triumph would certainly shine against. I think ‘literally no archetype except Grishoalbrand' is a little exaggerated. Also, I’m still not seeing how Triumph wouldn’t be sweet against BGx decks? Can someone explain? Attrition MU’s where CA matters and every creature is must kill, how is Triumph not good there? It even seems good against Death’s Shadow decks, as long as you watch out for Snapcaster. I’m not trying to be contrary, I’m just surprised that there’s such little love for the card. I’m not seeing its uselessness like y’all are.
Man, I came here to see if anyone else had noticed Finale of Devastation, and I see y’all have, though no one seems excited about it. I was under the impression that the ability to search both the GY or the deck, coupled with the possibility of a Craterhoof type effect (with haste instead of trample) would make it at least comparable to Chord; exchanging the speed and convoke of one for the possible finishing ability of the other.
I thought the uncommon was an odd choice too. He/she is a little too multifaceted and powerful of a hoser to not be a rare, I would think. The silver is why I kind of glanced over the card for awhile before now.
While we’re talking about new SB hosers, The Elderspell is obviously the strongest PW hoser we (or anyone else for that matter) have access to. Are there going to be enough Planeswalkers in existing decks and/or enough of an uptick in PW-centric decks that it warrants inclusion of this new card in the SB?
I guess the real question is: is it good enough to run against decks running 4-6 PW’s like GBx, UWx Control, and Tron? Or is it too narrow, and not worth the risk of sitting in our hands durdling while we wait for a target, wishing it was a Dreadbore or Goyf or something else? We don’t have card selection, after all. But damn, that ceiling is high.
Anyone taken a look at Ashiok, Dream Render? Seems like a really solid SB card. Am I looking at it right? A great answer to GY decks (which is every deck) and assorted decks (a lot of combo) that search their library or use fetchlands (which is every deck). Those are exaggerations, but my point is it covers a lot of ground. We could mill ourselves (unless we knew the opponent had something good on top) to fuel Goyf. Other similar decks will get more mileage out of the self-mill, but it’s still useful to us.
As far as the edict card is concerned, that’s a good point about Shadow and “go-wide” strategies. They weren’t too excited about it on the Jund thread either it seemed, but that one I don’t understand as much. 'Lots of decks have lots of creatures, and giving the opponent a choice is bad'. Yeah, but it’s Jund. We’re one-for-oneing all their creatures as they put them down, mostly. The opponent’s side of the board really shouldn’t be that wide, if at all.
But there's still no need for an edict effect in Modern. There's no True-Name Nemesis or Sneak and Show here and when we do need an edict effect, LOTV has it covered. There's simply no room for a card like that. What would you cut for it in Jund? Push, Decay, KCommand? Never.
Never? Jund absolutely has a flex slot (or two!) in its removal suite. It changes with the times, but KCommand, Decay, Pulse, Push, Terminate, Trophy, and Dreadbore are all viable inclusions, and are all viable options for swapping with a single Triumph. There’s a need for edict effects like there’s a need for Path. I’m not trying to make a comparison of those two cards, they have many differences. The point is, there’s plenty of difficult-ass creatures to remove in Modern, and Triumph can get around most anything, except multiple creatures, which Jund is well equipped to deal with. There are quite a few decks in Modern with limited creature suites (like Shadow), where Triumph would shine against. Not to mention the discard effect is badass against BGx/Midrange decks where grind and CA really matter. I think to say there’s no need for an edict effect in Modern is a stretch. And yes, we have Lili. But just because I have Push doesn’t mean I’m inherently not going to run Bolt or Terminate or whatever else has an overlapping effect/role. I think the reiteration is great. I’ll be surprised if I don’t see BGx decks playing 1 copy in the 60 in that flex slot with the same frequency as our other flex options.
I don’t think lili’s triumph is gonna be all that great tbh. Many, many decks in modern go wide rather than tall and edicts just aren’t effective against that style. As is most BGx decks play 4, or sometimes fewer, LotV. Adding diabolical edict is largely unneeded redundancy.
I think the card is very playable, but people seem to be overreacting big time. I don’t see this card making it out of the sideboard, and even then it’s probably only to be included when you’re fearing specifically bogles.
We’re Jund. We should be 1-for-1’ing their creatures as they play them. There shouldn’t be a board full of opposing creatures that your opponent can choose to sac. Also, it has a pretty decent ceiling. Especially if they’re hellbent. Instant speed discard is the real deal. I’m not saying cut Lightning Bolts for 4x copies of triumph (obvious exaggeration), but I can easily see a singleton copy in the MB in one of those removal flex-slots we have, and another in the SB for decks it shines against (e.g., Bogles, Breach decks, Infect, mirror/midrange). There’s plenty of other MU’s I can see it proving its worth against too. Shadow decks, for example (watch out for Snapcaster), Eldrazi/Tron, etc. Anywhere with fewer and hard to remove creatures, and anywhere we keep our Lili’s in after game 1 and CA matters.
I’m excited about it. I think it’s a pretty slick card and a nice nod to GBx decks, albeit 12Rack players are probably drooling a little bit harder than me. Also, I’m secretely hoping for an uptick in untargeted discard so my Wilt-Leaf Lieges can come out of hiding again.
Edit: Also, just in case it wasn’t obvious and to head off any unnecessary corrections, I know it’s 8Rack. I was referencing Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage.
Now that you mention it, Bolt/Push into Wrenn into Lili does sound really badass against creature heavy MU’s.
What third card would we lose for the third Wrenn?
And does this card make Lili(tLH) completely obsolete? Kinda seems like it does. He pings and gives value like she does, and at one mana less (which is a huge difference). I understand they’re not exactly the same, but still...
I’m happy UW Control isn’t the only fair deck getting shiny new (and smaller) Walkers.
Does Pillage replace Fulminator? I know we can’t recur it like we can with Fulminator, but how often does that happen anyway? I think it’d be nice to cover both angles like that with one card. Plus the “can’t be regenerated” clause can make all the difference in the world, as can the fact that it can hit any land, not just nonbasic.
Edit: Also, thoughts on Plague Engineer (I’m loving all these throwback shoutouts, by the way)? Is it enough of an impact by turn-3, or is -1/-1 not gonna cut it? And while I’m on the subject, let me just so that I truly, strongly hope we see an uptick in tribal decks. The Tolkien-loving nerd in me loves the classic fantasy races (and not-so-classic ones like Slivers) and it’s that same nerdy love that attracted me to this game in the first place. I’m so happy they’re finally throwing some of these wonderful tribes a bone. I am freakin’ stoked about this set!
Oh, and one last thing. I’ve never played Slivers, but I started collecting Magic cards as a kid when Tempest was the newest set out, so I certainly have an affinity for them. I hope they tarred and feathered whatever dip**** came up with those humanoid slivers from M14 or whatever set that was. I’m relieved that they’ve returned their morphology to its original, sleek, no-eyed form. Good golly, those humanoid slivers looked so ******* dumb.
I meant with Goblin Engineer. Tutor Skirk Prospector and Murderous Redcap with Goblin Matron, and tutor Metallic Mimic with Goblin Engineer.
You could get Mimic out of the yard by saccing an Aether Vial or just by using Claim // Fame. I already intend on using Claim//Fame because it pairs really nicely with Warren Instigator (who just got a whole lot better with Goblin Matron), as well as quite a few of our other cards (looking at you Munitions Expert, Goblin Cratermaker, etc.)
Now that we have tutoring in the form of Matron and Goblin Engineer, is it worth including a singleton Murderous Redcap and a Metallic Mimic or two to always threaten the combo? I already planned on including Claim//Fame anyway since it plays so nicely with so many of our cards, and that’ll give me another way (besides saccing an Aether Vial) to get Mimic out of the yard. It may all be too cumbersome, but I’m going to at least brew on it a bit.
I’m so excited Gobbos are finally getting some love.
One is The Elderspell as a hoser for particularly UW Control. There are other lists I’m seeing where it’d be a relevant SB inclusion, but for that Azorius MU, it could very possibly be a blowout, and that’s why I’m looking seriously at it for my SB if these super PW heavy lists become the norm. You’re sure to have at least one target for it. Nailing two Walkers simultaneously would be insane value. Hitting one with a Lili out would be sweet. Destroying two walkers and adding 4 loyalty to your Lili would be GG.
The other is Abrupt Decay. Decay is looking super relevant right now. Lots of 3cmc Walkers, and all kinds of pesky artifacts and enchantments. The can’t be countered clause is obviously huge against Control (more-so than ever with all these new Walkers they want to protect), and it’s nice against Infect too, which seems to be on the rise.
Anyway, I’m curious if y’all’ve seen these lists and have drawn similar conclusions.
I appreciate the discourse, fellas.
I’m getting off topic for this thread, as I can see and agree with the point made earlier about our problematic MU’s being go-wide strategies, which Triumph doesn’t address. So as far as JDS is concerned, yeah, Triumph probably isn’t something we’re interested in. But for other Liliana decks, I don’t know if I agree that it has such a limited use as y’all would suggest. I don’t know what is considered Tier 1-2 anymore, but I’m pretty sure that if we’re throwing such a seldom seen deck as Grishoalbrand in there, then Bogles and Infect can be included as well, which triumph would certainly shine against. I think ‘literally no archetype except Grishoalbrand' is a little exaggerated. Also, I’m still not seeing how Triumph wouldn’t be sweet against BGx decks? Can someone explain? Attrition MU’s where CA matters and every creature is must kill, how is Triumph not good there? It even seems good against Death’s Shadow decks, as long as you watch out for Snapcaster. I’m not trying to be contrary, I’m just surprised that there’s such little love for the card. I’m not seeing its uselessness like y’all are.
While we’re talking about new SB hosers, The Elderspell is obviously the strongest PW hoser we (or anyone else for that matter) have access to. Are there going to be enough Planeswalkers in existing decks and/or enough of an uptick in PW-centric decks that it warrants inclusion of this new card in the SB?
I guess the real question is: is it good enough to run against decks running 4-6 PW’s like GBx, UWx Control, and Tron? Or is it too narrow, and not worth the risk of sitting in our hands durdling while we wait for a target, wishing it was a Dreadbore or Goyf or something else? We don’t have card selection, after all. But damn, that ceiling is high.
Never? Jund absolutely has a flex slot (or two!) in its removal suite. It changes with the times, but KCommand, Decay, Pulse, Push, Terminate, Trophy, and Dreadbore are all viable inclusions, and are all viable options for swapping with a single Triumph. There’s a need for edict effects like there’s a need for Path. I’m not trying to make a comparison of those two cards, they have many differences. The point is, there’s plenty of difficult-ass creatures to remove in Modern, and Triumph can get around most anything, except multiple creatures, which Jund is well equipped to deal with. There are quite a few decks in Modern with limited creature suites (like Shadow), where Triumph would shine against. Not to mention the discard effect is badass against BGx/Midrange decks where grind and CA really matter. I think to say there’s no need for an edict effect in Modern is a stretch. And yes, we have Lili. But just because I have Push doesn’t mean I’m inherently not going to run Bolt or Terminate or whatever else has an overlapping effect/role. I think the reiteration is great. I’ll be surprised if I don’t see BGx decks playing 1 copy in the 60 in that flex slot with the same frequency as our other flex options.
We’re Jund. We should be 1-for-1’ing their creatures as they play them. There shouldn’t be a board full of opposing creatures that your opponent can choose to sac. Also, it has a pretty decent ceiling. Especially if they’re hellbent. Instant speed discard is the real deal. I’m not saying cut Lightning Bolts for 4x copies of triumph (obvious exaggeration), but I can easily see a singleton copy in the MB in one of those removal flex-slots we have, and another in the SB for decks it shines against (e.g., Bogles, Breach decks, Infect, mirror/midrange). There’s plenty of other MU’s I can see it proving its worth against too. Shadow decks, for example (watch out for Snapcaster), Eldrazi/Tron, etc. Anywhere with fewer and hard to remove creatures, and anywhere we keep our Lili’s in after game 1 and CA matters.
I’m excited about it. I think it’s a pretty slick card and a nice nod to GBx decks, albeit 12Rack players are probably drooling a little bit harder than me. Also, I’m secretely hoping for an uptick in untargeted discard so my Wilt-Leaf Lieges can come out of hiding again.
Edit: Also, just in case it wasn’t obvious and to head off any unnecessary corrections, I know it’s 8Rack. I was referencing Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage.