Yeah, your explanation makes a lot of sense. In my playgroup, the most common state I find on T3 is that I am ready to cast Kaalia and at least one other player is ready to counter/remove her. This is where I really aim to play a protection piece as a must-counter-or-remove item (like Stax effects in your group). In this respect Defense Grid and Mana Web add some redundancy, but your point is well taken that these cards can become a liability as the game goes on and I will definitely look to cut these first if they seem excessive or too dangerous. I really like Price of Glory here for the insidious aspect of how it doesn't stop the Mono- control player from stopping someone else's combo, it just eats their lands while we sit back and grin. Grand Abolisher is definitely the exemplar for these effects as it completely shuts down interaction during our turn and our turn only. Conqueror's Flail (I'm pretty sure you meant this instead of Inquisitor's Flail) has been on my radar as well, I just wish I had more small creatures to equip it to. Part of my reason for running little dorks like Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer, and Devoted Caretaker is as a little experiment to see how often my Defense Grid/Mana Web could be a Flail attached to one of these.
I am currently running Stony Silence in addition to Vandalblast. By Force was next on my list to add but I ultimately couldn't figure out what to cut, maybe some of the spot removal or protection? Meltdown concerns me a bit with respect to killing our own rocks but it would definitely hurt my opponents more. What do you think of Subterranean Tremors? It's a card in Bad_Dog's list that looks interesting, can wipe artifacts for the same cost as overloaded Vandalblast with additional utility in being a mostly one-sided sweeper. Ravages of War is indeed outside of my price range, Boil looks absurd but there is a small element of pride holding me back in addition to knowing that I would definitely draw some groans, especially from my friend who plays exclusively /X decks including Chain Veil Teferi. But I'm already running Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, so maybe at this point I might as well fully convert to the anti- side... I've also considered Ricochet Trap as further tech that isn't *entirely* dead against the occasional non- deck.
I very rarely don't have a target (or a tutor/draw spell to find one) for my first Kaalia trigger, but I do sometimes run out after putting out one or two targets. My reasoning is that I'd rather have a protected Kaalia with one target on board than a Kaalia that can't stick with 3+ targets in hand. This also has the effect of making Dark Confidant more effective, as 3Drinks mentions in his primer many opponents will expect us to flip Iona/Avacyn all day long when in reality the average CMC of the deck is around 3. I just recently added the Razakats combo though, if drawing the pieces proves to be too clunky then I'll likely replace these to bring the target number up to 18.
What's your reasoning for not running the additional fast mana artifacts, especially Mana Vault and Chrome Mox? Do you find that the extra speed isn't worth the card disadvantage? I know you took out Mox Diamond due to land count and we probably don't have enough artifacts to reliably use Mox Opal.
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Nov 28, 2018 Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Nov 27, 2018What are your thoughts on additional Grand Abolisher effects like Defense Grid/Price of Glory/Mana Web in a meta with less fast combo and more control? Stax pieces don't seem to have as much of a lightning-rod effect in my playgroup so I lean towards running more effects to protect against countermagic/removal, along with artifact hate to target U/X control manabases. I have tried Thalia-type effects but didn't find this effective enough for protecting Kaalia. I would like to try out the Rule of Law effects but am similarly concerned that my single spell each-turn will get countered/removed. I should mention that my meta is much less tuned than what you describe, mostly due to budget constraints (rare to see cards acquired for >$20).Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Here is my current list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dracaryxs-kaalia/?cb=1543356931
Nov 26, 2018Yeah it seems like Razakats combo will be great for your reanimator list as all the combo pieces are already in there aside from Leonin Relic-Warder. Possibility Storm is 5 CMC not 6, but I agree that is still quite expensive in a competitive environment. Thanks for the super detailed response!Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Nov 24, 2018First of all, thanks for the great primer and *especially* for organizing by card function and CMC!! I always end up copying deck lists into Excel and sorting like that on my own so the formatting is much appreciated A couple of questions for you:Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Have you considered the "Razakats" (Razaketh, the Foulblooded + Leonin Relic-Warder) combo, esp. for your reanimator build? A user by the name of Bad_Dog from the cEDH subreddit has a great explanation of it:
Requires 1 creature (Kaalia) and 1WWB (this can be shortcut by 1 if you have two lands and a rock in play).
Cheat in Razaketh off Kaalia. Sacrifice Kaalia or another creature (-2 life). Tutor Leonin Relic Warder. Cast Leonin Relic Warder (WW). If you have a mana rock in play, exile it. Otherwise, target something you don't like. Sacrifice the Relic Warder (-2 life). This will either bring your rock back untapped or, if done in response to the ETB trigger, permanently exile the problem card. Tutor Animate Dead. Cast Animate Dead targeting Leonin Relic Warder (1B). Leonin Relic Warder enters the battlefield. Target Animate Dead. Animate Dead is exiled, sacrifice trigger goes on stack. Sacrifice the Relic Warder to return Animate Dead, creating a loop where you can repeatedly tutor for -2 life. Tutor up one of your combos and enough fast mana needed to cast it (-2 life per activation).
In his list (here), Bad_Dog uses Worldgorger Dragon as his combo of choice. I don't like Worldgorger combo for the same reasons you mentioned (super-high risk being the main one), but was considering Bitter Ordeal off of Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox + Dark Ritual as an alternative option. Even without a combo finish though, repeated Vampiric Tutors to your hand from a one-card combo with Kaalia seems too good to pass up. The only real cost is putting Leonin Relic-Warder in the deck, which is a reasonable bear outside of the combo, along with a couple fast mana pieces. I haven't seen this mentioned until recently, so curious what your thoughts are!
Morbid Curiosity seems very high-risk, putting you at a 2-for-1 including a large creature if it gets countered. Disciple of Bolas costs 1 more but doesn't run the 2-for-1 risk as it's on ETB instead of cast. I personally like Read the Bones better than either though and value it similarly to Painful Truths, have you tried it?
Regarding mana rocks in your first list, I noticed the three diamonds are there but not Coldsteel Heart, which is almost strictly better than all of them as far as I can tell. Also, do you feel that these are better than Fellwar Stone which enters untapped? I find it extremely unusual for Fellwar Stone to not produce at least 1 color.
Possibility Storm is a hard lock with Eidolon of Rhetoric/Rule of Law and also a decent, albeit expensive, stax piece on its own.
Thanks again for crafting this fantastic resource!
Mar 12, 2016@3Drinks I was looking back through your main list on the front page and I had a couple of questions:Posted in: 1 vs 1 Traditional Commander
1. In your list you have 6 discard spells Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Tidehollow Sculler, Mind Twist, but in the thread it seems like you favor closer to 8-9 hand disruption pieces. Which number is preferred for non-DC 1v1?
2. Would you make any changes to your removal suite if you were not running Earnest Fellowship? I know you're a big fan of the card, but blue and green are just so predominant in my meta that personally I'd almost always rather just have Mother of Runes for Pongify/Rapid Hybridization/Beast Within.
3. In your discussion of card draw spells, it seemed like you favored Painful Truths over Read the Bones. Any reason for Read the Bones but not Painful Truths in the main list?
Thanks for taking the time to maintain this fantastic resource
Quote from Yaugzbob »Hi there!
Long time reader but first time poster of this thread.
Nice work on Kaalia! I didn't read the 3918 posts (!!) only beginning and last ones (to get some ideas)
I got an EDH multiplayer build of Kaalia, which try not to be too unfriendly whith others. A lot of cards are the same than your build, but of course I removed targeted discard, mass land destruction, most of tutors (I like the more random style of play), and foiled other legendary creature just because of the flavor I try to have in each of my EDH deck.
OK so here's the list, tell me what you are thinking. My only problem I think is too few cards to gain life. More tests will tell
While I'm here I thought I'd offer my opinion as a primarily multiplayer Kaalia player.
1. Mana Rocks: You're at 6 rocks right now, which is a little low. The main 2-cmc rocks I would suggest are Fellwar Stone (amazing with the recent change to Rule #4, now gives you every color off an opponent's City of Brass/Mana Confluence) and Surveyor's Scope (the requirement is easier to meet than you might think, and in multiplayer this is just plain broken). Mind Stone is also decent, but less desirable in this deck due to producing colorless mana, and Jeweled Amulet is worse in multiplayer but still a solid alternative to more risky 0 CMC rocks like Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal. I would aim for 8-9 rocks to increase productivity on your early turns, even if you don't plan to rush Kaalia out on turn 3 (sometimes not the best move in multiplayer depending on the game state).
2. Tutors: The only tutor I see in this list is Rune-Scarred Demon, which I feel is a mistake. Tutoring is one of the most powerful actions you can take in a singleton format, and black has access to arguably the best tutors in the game in Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor. If these are out of your budget/too un-casual in your eyes, I would still go for budget options like Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Tutor, Dark Petition, etc. These cards let you find the Kaalia target you want when Kaalia is out, or the removal/boardwipe you need to survive when you're behind.
3. Lifegain: How are you losing life beyond the black draw spells? If you're getting attacked by creatures, I would increase the number of efficient spot removal spells like Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares. These will let you remove threatening creatures while leaving you plenty of mana to take other actions on your turn. Politics will also take you far in saving damage ("Look, I know this Hellkite Tyrant is scary, but if you don't attack me I promise I won't attack you next turn!"). As far as actually gaining life, Archangel of Thune and Baneslayer Angel are efficiently costed beaters with lifegain. The CMC 5 is very valuable as a follow-up play if your 4-mana Kaalia gets removed. I would probably only run one of these (favoring Baneslayer Angel personally), as you'd rather run tutors that can grab these cards or other sources of lifegain (Sword of Light and Shadow, Vault of the Archangel) when you're low on life.
4. Kaalia Targets: Overall, I would reduce the number of targets you're running. You're currently running 22 targets, which I would drop to around 15 in favor of spot removal/tutors. There are also a few notable targets that you aren't running:
Bloodgift Demon: Solid source of card draw and a great political option in multiplayer ("Hey man, if you want to counter that Wrath of God I'll give you an extra draw next turn"). Also sits in the important 5-CMC slot along with Thundermaw Hellkite and Baneslayer Angel.
Rakdos the Defiler: The only reason I could see for not running this is that it's too much of a "feel-bad" card, but you're already running Master of Cruelties.
Yosei, the Morning Star: You have Sword of Light and Shadow and High Market but you're skipping the piece to complete the lock. He's also a great deterrent from getting attacked. I could understand if Stasis-type effects were considered unfun though.
Of course, these are all just suggestions so feel free to accept or refuse them as you see fit. The most important thing is that YOU like your list and YOU have fun playing with it. I always have a blast playing Kaalia in a heavy combo-control environment even though people say she's not as good in multiplayer, and I hope you arrive at a list that suits your needs!
Jan 7, 2016Posted in: 1 vs 1 Traditional Commander
Will the main decklist in the first post be updated to reflect this? All of the lists in the first post currently recommend 36 lands, I'm curious where cuts have been made
Jul 6, 2015You're totally right, the Sun Titan brought back an Animate Dead which targeted the Karmic Guide. My mistake, I lost myself in all the card-linking haha. And I feel the same, once you take the G-way there is no going backPosted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Jul 4, 2015I've drawn inspiration from 3drinks for my multiplayer build as well and the list looks quite similar, with the main difference being that I do run flicker effects in favor of some of the utility cards you have.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I once had my board wiped with 6 mana open and one card in my hand. On the end step preceding my turn I flashed in Necromancy targeting Sun Titan. The Sun Titan trigger brought back my Karmic Guide, which brought back my Rune-Scarred Demon. The Rune-Scarred Demon searched for Ghostway, which was played immediately. Sun Titan dropped Necromancy and brought it back targeting Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, Karmic Guide brought back Grand Abolisher, and Rune-Scarred Demon tutored for Legion's Initiative (for good measure). I untapped and swung for 42 damage behind Grand Abolisher.
In another game, I attempted to Cataclysm with Kaalia out, but she was killed in response leaving me with a land and a Signet. On my next turn, I played Animate Dead on Sun Titan, returning Dance of the Dead targeting Angel of Serenity removing my 3 opponents' Cataclysm-surviving creatures. I then played Cloudshift on Sun Titan, dropping the Animate Dead and bringing it back targeting Sire of Insanity.
While I understand that both of these are magical-Christmasland best case scenarios, the flicker spells also double as protection while maintaining the potential for huge value. I rarely find these cards sitting dead in my hand. In the event that I do have Kaalia on the board and no removal is being pointed at her, then I am most likely winning anyways, and the flicker effects serve as a nice backup plan against topdecked removal. I do realize that it is dependent on the speed and amount of removal in your playgroup, so I would definitely consider it a meta call.
Have you tested Surveyor's Scope? I have had little trouble activating it with only 3 fetches in my deck, I imagine that with 7 it should be quite easy. If you hit just one land, then it is already on par with a 2-mana rock in terms of mana production. Any more than that and you are getting huge value.
Hide // Seek is a cool card that I noticed you discussing earlier in the thread. My group has been playing with a lot of annoying artifacts and enchantments lately, so I might try running this in addition to Wear // Tear and Return to Dust.
Nov 9, 2014Dragon2559 posted a message on Solrune's Marchesa, the Black Rose (Flipping Thrones in Multiplayer)What do you think of Glen Elendra Archmage? As a 4-drop Wizard with 2 power it seems to fit in perfectly with your deck. With any source of +1/+1 counters (Sage of Fables comes to mind) the ability becomes "U: Counter target noncreature spell" which is pretty insane in my opinion.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Jul 16, 2014Posted in: Casual & Multiplayer FormatsQuote from -GumgodMTG »Arc Trail, Chandra's Outrage, Chandra's Spitfire (kinda looks like an elemental dragon), Crosis's Catacombs, Crosis's Charm, Cruel Ultimatum, Spawning Breath, Thunderbolt, Traitorous Blood, Shiv's Embrace?, Breath of Malfegor, Breath of Darigaaz.
Wow, a lot of good finds in there! Did you have some way of searching for those, or were those all off the top of your head?
Jul 15, 2014So, my friends and I are making tribal decks where every card has to satisfy at least one of two conditions:Posted in: Casual & Multiplayer Formats
1. The name of the tribe must be printed somewhere on the card.
2. The artwork must contain a member of the tribe.
I chose dragons for my tribe, and while a quick Gatherer search revealed a lot of cards that satisfy the first condition I'm curious as to whether I missed any important cards that satisfy the second.
Specifically, I'm looking for cards like Firebolt and Terminate (the Planeshift one) that clearly have dragons in the artwork but don't have the word anywhere on the card. I'm mostly interested in red, black, artifact, and land cards. Any ideas?
Jul 13, 2014I believe you were thinking of running the new Indulgent Tormentor a few pages back, would you suggest running him alongside Bloodgift Demon or as a replacement? I like the card a lot, but Bloodgift Demon still seems slightly more reliable and durable with the extra toughness.Posted in: 1 vs 1 Traditional Commander
Mar 14, 2014Any reason for not including Thundermaw Hellkite? He seemed to be a high pick in your other 1v1 lists as a fast beater that's pretty easy to hardcast.Posted in: 1 vs 1 Traditional Commander
Mar 9, 2014Posted in: 1 vs 1 Traditional CommanderQuote from ajprokos »Multiplayer Kaalia vs 1v1 Kaalia is played very differently. I have a slightly altered version of 3drinks 1v1 list; however 2 friends also have Kaalia lists but only for multiplayer. All 3 are very very different. Yes more protect for Kaalia, more haste, less 1-for-1 spells/removal, more recursion, and a higher curve due to a longer game (going over the top).
Thanks for the response! Good to know that my instincts weren't completely off.
Quote from 3drinks »It's just the 'Forger thing. I have a hard time getting behind it. You need [mana[6WR[/mana] and a creature that sticks to pick this thing up for the first value attained. But all this deck needs to do to "win" is make sure Kaalia can attack safely - 'Forger doesn't help with this. If she can attack, it was gonna be regardless of being a 6/2 or a 2/2. The Cloudshift package is too responsive to me (I'm a very aggressive player) I like to force my plays and say "answer this or lose". The ironic part is that I will likely be playing 'Shift in that Modern version. X_x
Don't get me wrong, I do like O-Charm a lot. Is it usually better than Terminate? Sure. But not always (those rare times where you need to kill a, say, Vorinclex, and don't want to eat six to the face for it. For the longest time, I played both cards side-by-side. Then they printed Hero's Downfall and it's like "Woah, wow, okay!" As for your Oblation you just purchased, man I played that for years (since this deck's inception) finally replacing it with Unexpectedly Absent. It was a loyal card, though I have been known to swap it out for Smallpox every now and then (my agitation at the GSZ-->Dryad opening).
In multiplayer, rather than rely on the 'Shift package, I instead anticipate her getting removed. So I use her as the bait and then just play WBR Reanimator. If she sticks, awesome, that makes my job easier. If she dies? Cool, that's why I have Obzedat's Aid. Or Quicksilver.
Yeah, when you put it that way it does make a lot of sense. Sunforger can do crazy things over the course of a longer game, but it is a really heavy investment that doesn't really fit this deck's gameplan. I really like Orzhov Charm's flexibility so I'll keep it in for now, but I'll pay attention to how often I draw it and wish it were a different removal spell. And well, at least I can still use Oblation as a temporary substitute for Unexpectedly Absent. Thanks for all the help, I'll definitely experiment with some of these changes and see how it goes!
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