I do not like this set up. There is a thread for decklists, but there are no comments on the lists or how the decks performed. Anyone and everyone can and does just post 'competitive' lists. No useful information is gained other than that the poster thought the list was good.
Then there is a thread for tournament results but there is almost never a decklist. I have no freaking clue what the person is playing. What good do results do me then? And on top of it, the results can be from some 10 man FNM or a GP (granted this was a problem with the old style). I really don't want to read someones 2-1-1 into a top 2 finish. I really think it should be limited to PTQ level tournaments or tournaments with 50+ people.
thats impossible, zendikar was the best selling set of all time. if it was short printed it wouldnt sell that much (lack of product).
heck ive read somewhere that last year was the best year ever for magic (in terms of sales).
For $ or volume? Obviously, if it is on raw $ then they could make more than 199X or 20XX by selling less cards because the price of packs has gone up.
If it is on volume, that is amazing. I started back just before Ice Age, and I'm always expecting a decline that eventually leads to no more new cards. It just seems inevitable. Some how though, ~15 years later the game is still printing new cards, very popular, and possibly the healthiest it has ever been. An amazing accomplishment if you consider that it is a game based on paper cards during an era where games (and especially fantasy themed interactive games) have moved to computers and played accross the internet.
That one seems a bit off. I'm looking on completed listings right now, and almost all the emrakuls today and yesterday (~50) have all sold for 4-5 a piece (a few as high as 6). I was going to dump my 3 real fast if they were $9.
Quote from salomar »
Spot on!
I think you just named two of the sleepers of this set. I seriously don't understand why Devastating Summons is SO LOW! If you just throw all damage at your opponent first couple of turns and then cast Summons in turn 5 with a kicked Bushwhacker, it's pretty much game (that's 15 damage...). Obviously a bad card against counterdecks.
The Kor Spiritdancer is a card I'd watch too. It gets out of hand rediculously fast and the card you play on it always replaces itself, whether or not the Spiritdancer is removed in response. It basically is a must-be-dealt-with-immediately card. Eel Umbra can just save it when they want to remove it and then it's already a 3/5 with totem armor. Not that hard to pull off. I would like to see someone try this out and build a type 2 deck with it!
You need to sac at least 3 lands to make summons worth it. It actually seemed like it might be a card to make it into AiR. It is a lot better topdeck than a empty the warrens if your first attempt didn't make it. Might also be good in Extended Boros decks that run Flagstones of Trokair. Two 3/3s on turn 3 isn't terrible. It also can win top deck/attrition wars that aggro v aggro seems to turn into.
I think consuming vapors is going to become a 4 of in this deck (and just about any deck that plays black). There are very few mathcups where you are going to feel like you are not getting value out of the sacrificed creature because, for the most part, decks playing creatures are playing quality creatures. There are expceptions obviously (elves for example), but most decks are playing war monk, BBEs, KotR, Thoctars, BSA ect.
You're going to hit 2 good creatures, or you are going to gain a turn of tempo because they won't play a creature for a turn. It really hoses aggro.
Would Sea Gate Oracle work in the capsule's spot? It lets you see 2 cards, get one, and gives you a road block to give you time to get to the combo. It seems like Wall of Omens, capsule, and oracle could all compete for the same spot and have different advantages.
Wall - bigger road block, cheapest
Capsule - can see 2 cards, draws 2 cards, uses most mana but can still be used turn 3
Oracle - highest cc but comes out turn 3, sees as many cards as capsule but only draws 1, slightly smaller roadblock than Wall.
In between each "action" there is a chance to respond with instants and ablities:
Declare attack phase
-time for responses (like tapping all of the active player's creatures)
Declare attackers
-time for responses
Declare blockers
-time for responses (like your trick)
Combat damage
"Fun" has absolutely no place in this discussion. This is a thread about the secondary market of the game. "Fun" can stick it in its ear. People have families to feed and bills to pay. By printing a set that is largely subpar, Wizards has made this very difficult for those folks whose livelihood depends on the resale of this product. Unless banks and utilities start taking checks in the currency of smiles, your argument is pointless. And fun can drive you to the store all you want, but money keeps that store open.
While you're at it, throw out all the BS about paying bills and supporting families. WotC's job is not to support people who act as secondary sellers. They are in the buisness to sell packs. LOTs of packs. It doesn't matter if it is through secondary sellers, FNMs, or straight to the players. If someone wants to speculate on the resale value of the cards in the packs and can make profit, fine. They have to be willing to accept the risks of speculating though.
RE, I have a question for you. Is the overwhelming majority of your business in the US? If so, have you looked into moving you/your store to the US so that you would have lower processing costs? Obviously, there are other things in life to consider, but from a purely business perspective moving to the US may be the best way to increase your profit. Or, if you live close enough to the border, there may be some way to open a 'store' on the US side to get around taxes and tariffs and what not.
Oddly, inquisition may not be played much in T2 but see a lot of play in extended. T2 looks like it is shaping up to be a little slower on average, so it might not be useful. But as pointed out in the article, inquisition hits a lot of the important cards in extended. Also, one of the big reasons people don't like thoughtsieze maindeck in extended is because it really hurts your zoo matchup. This will at least be in the SB of most decks that can product black.
Not that great. If you miss with the reveal its just a 2/2 for three which is horrible. Also, sometimes your going to get the creature and want the accel, and others your going to want a 5/5 and get the land. Random cards usaully arent that great. Magic is all about consistancy and card advantage.
Yeah, that is why the vampire lord doesn't see play.
And who are these sweet pros you talked to who expect MD Negate from any Zoo deck running blue? The Saito and Tribal Zoo variants that have been placing well haven't been running MD Negate and the last time it was even a popular choice was when Brad Nelson wrote an article about Md Negate and Meddling Mage a couple months ago. Blood Moon Zoo is the popular Zoo variant right now, followed by Lightning Angel Zoo as of Saturday. Scapeshift will definitely just run Scapeshift out there as soon as they can because there really isn't a good reason to expect MD Negate. If they have the time to work around it then fine, but the goal really is to make them go off as soon as possible so they shouldn't have time to make sure they have a Remand to hold off a Negate you probably arent playing anyway.
That is great in theory and all, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that if your opponent starts leaving Ux open when you have the mana/graveyard/lands ready and are set to combo that they probably have are holding negate. It didn't take any 'sweet' pros, just some common Fing sense because it isn't some original idea that no one has seen before.
@BASSMAN: I really like your list, the md negates seem really good. I found that a lot of my meta is combo/control and a lot of people really like you said play right into a negate g1. With your list instead of running a watery grave have you thought of just running a basic island? Your deck seems like it would be really good against control/combo you have a lot of hate in it.
The only thing i am really considering right now is thoughtsieze. Has any one thought of running this. I know it is really suicidal especially if you are running dark confidant like i am but with decks like these all over the format i find i need more disruption, also i need a full suite of pride mages.
3 negates MD really isn't enough to stop the cascade combo decks or scapeshift (I like this match up more though because they are a little slower). Charm does not counter those combos. It is at least helps against depths.
How are people playing into your negates game 1? Everyone I played and everyone I talked to pretty much assumed zoo was running MD negates if they had access to blue. I could have used that...
54% of the decks day 1 were zoo decks (~660 players). By day 2, there were only 4 tribal zoo decks plus approximately 3 othere semi zoo decks (one scapeshift-zoo, bloodbraid/bust zoo, and 1 or 2 'bigger' zoo). So roughly 25% of the top 32, and only 12.5% of the top 8 (he did make it to the finals). I would say that zoo was not a good choice for the meta.
I was expecting to see a fair amount of "combo" (mainly of the cascade variety) and Zoo. The negates were main board for the combo matchup. I wasn't sure whether or not i wanted 1 or 2 jittes in the side and just ended up with on in the main at the last second in place of a helix. Bloodbraid is great for the mirror.
At the last second I pulled out 4 Spell Snips for the Fallouts. I wish I'd left them in. Actually, if I had a chance to do it again, I'd probably go 4 remands in their place and play a couple more basics in the main. I think you have to pretty much assume that anyone playing red (and not tribal zoo) has blood moons.
R1: Win vs UBR control with Jace. Game 1 he got a blood moon out turn 2, but but I went first and had enough threats to kill him. G2 he got me with a 2nd blood moon after I purged his first floating mana. Game I had a plains, sac land for a forest, and 2 pridemages in my opening hand. I was too fast for him.
R2: Lose to "Bigger" zoo. He didn't play the apes or lions and had Knight, bloodbraids and lightning angel(?!). Game 1 I started faster, got him low, he got the angel, we stalled, and eventually he swung w/everything. He was at 6, tapped out and empty handed, with ony the angle to block. I had 2 3/3 natacls. I just needed to draw 1 of 3 bloodbraids, 2 helixes, 4 bolts, or 2 paths that I had left in my deck. I drew a land. A common theme for the day. G2 I mulled and only got 1 land.
R3: Win vs AIR. He mulled and didn't hit the combo g1. Game 2 he made 8 goblins while I was holding a negate and hadn't gotten an island yet (counter the spell that puts them on 4+ mana). G3 he had to put a siege gang out that i bolted.
R4: Lose vs living Death. Game 1 I only got 2 lands and never hit a plains. I had 2 nacatls out and would have killed him with just those before he combod if they'd been 3/3s. Game 2 I held him off holding negate for a while, but never drew a 4th land, so I could never cast any of my 3 goyfs in hand (and still have negate). At 4 life (just needed 1 swing with goyf) he drew the land to cascade and have counter back up mana.
R5: Lose vs Hulk into hedron crab + arbor dryad. This was the low pont of my day. I just wasn't fast enough game 1 (and didn't know what he was playing until he won). Game 2 I found out he was playing blood moon....
R6: Lose vs Scapeshift. I put pressure on him early and got him to 3 while holding a negate (and he knew I had it). I only had mana for 1, so he went for it once he could counter mine. He didn't know I was holding helix though. Game 2 I didn't get enough pressure, and eventually he had 2 counters. G3 I mulled and still only saw 1 land. He proceeded to drop 3 vedalkin shackles.
R7: Win vs Blood Chief. Game 1 he dropped a quick blood moon (lost). Games 2 and 3 were long games of attrition that he almost won off of CA from blightning. The CA from finks and bloodbraids won it for me though
R8: Win vs affinity. He went first and was able to attack me with for 7 with a thopter on his 2nd turn that I couldn't kill (no bolt or path). It killed me the next turn. G2 and 3 I just had too much removal for him and was able to stay out from underneath his BLOOD MOONS. WTF?
R9: Lose to another "bigger" zoo match up. It was a long war of attrition again. I won game 1. Lost a long game 2 (he was in control most of the time). I started better game 3, but eventually we stalled and he top decked more bloodbraids and I top decked 2 lands.
4-5. My first season doing extended and my first Grand Prix. 9 rounds takes a LOOONG time. I think 8 is the most I've ever done. I started making mental mistakes sometime round 8.
I don't think I liked extened this season. There were too many decks that you had to worry about dropping a blood moon, 20/20, or cascading on turns 1 or 2 to really enjoy it.
I'd argue that it's not great for Limited, unless you are running some non-basics, which isn't always the case... and until we get a better idea of the lands on ROE, we won't know. Dependant on you either being multi-colored or having nonbasics in Limited; otherwise it will be bad in that format.
Its a rare, so who cares about limited? Evaluating rares/mythics in limited is almost useless. You either open rare/M bombs, or you don't. It's a roll of the die, especially in a large set. Limited is built on commons and uncommons.
I got destroyed by engineered explosives a few times (playing more of a domain build). Your creature base makes you more vulnerable to explosives, but proc helps you recover.
Then there is a thread for tournament results but there is almost never a decklist. I have no freaking clue what the person is playing. What good do results do me then? And on top of it, the results can be from some 10 man FNM or a GP (granted this was a problem with the old style). I really don't want to read someones 2-1-1 into a top 2 finish. I really think it should be limited to PTQ level tournaments or tournaments with 50+ people.
For $ or volume? Obviously, if it is on raw $ then they could make more than 199X or 20XX by selling less cards because the price of packs has gone up.
If it is on volume, that is amazing. I started back just before Ice Age, and I'm always expecting a decline that eventually leads to no more new cards. It just seems inevitable. Some how though, ~15 years later the game is still printing new cards, very popular, and possibly the healthiest it has ever been. An amazing accomplishment if you consider that it is a game based on paper cards during an era where games (and especially fantasy themed interactive games) have moved to computers and played accross the internet.
That one seems a bit off. I'm looking on completed listings right now, and almost all the emrakuls today and yesterday (~50) have all sold for 4-5 a piece (a few as high as 6). I was going to dump my 3 real fast if they were $9.
You need to sac at least 3 lands to make summons worth it. It actually seemed like it might be a card to make it into AiR. It is a lot better topdeck than a empty the warrens if your first attempt didn't make it. Might also be good in Extended Boros decks that run Flagstones of Trokair. Two 3/3s on turn 3 isn't terrible. It also can win top deck/attrition wars that aggro v aggro seems to turn into.
You're going to hit 2 good creatures, or you are going to gain a turn of tempo because they won't play a creature for a turn. It really hoses aggro.
Wall - bigger road block, cheapest
Capsule - can see 2 cards, draws 2 cards, uses most mana but can still be used turn 3
Oracle - highest cc but comes out turn 3, sees as many cards as capsule but only draws 1, slightly smaller roadblock than Wall.
In between each "action" there is a chance to respond with instants and ablities:
Declare attack phase
-time for responses (like tapping all of the active player's creatures)
Declare attackers
-time for responses
Declare blockers
-time for responses (like your trick)
Combat damage
While you're at it, throw out all the BS about paying bills and supporting families. WotC's job is not to support people who act as secondary sellers. They are in the buisness to sell packs. LOTs of packs. It doesn't matter if it is through secondary sellers, FNMs, or straight to the players. If someone wants to speculate on the resale value of the cards in the packs and can make profit, fine. They have to be willing to accept the risks of speculating though.
RE, I have a question for you. Is the overwhelming majority of your business in the US? If so, have you looked into moving you/your store to the US so that you would have lower processing costs? Obviously, there are other things in life to consider, but from a purely business perspective moving to the US may be the best way to increase your profit. Or, if you live close enough to the border, there may be some way to open a 'store' on the US side to get around taxes and tariffs and what not.
Rancor is much like Jitte in that an argument for any creature can be be made when you include rancor/jitte.
"They reprinted Squire. That will be good with Jitte!!"
")
Yeah, that is why the vampire lord doesn't see play.
That is great in theory and all, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that if your opponent starts leaving Ux open when you have the mana/graveyard/lands ready and are set to combo that they probably have are holding negate. It didn't take any 'sweet' pros, just some common Fing sense because it isn't some original idea that no one has seen before.
3 negates MD really isn't enough to stop the cascade combo decks or scapeshift (I like this match up more though because they are a little slower). Charm does not counter those combos. It is at least helps against depths.
How are people playing into your negates game 1? Everyone I played and everyone I talked to pretty much assumed zoo was running MD negates if they had access to blue. I could have used that...
54% of the decks day 1 were zoo decks (~660 players). By day 2, there were only 4 tribal zoo decks plus approximately 3 othere semi zoo decks (one scapeshift-zoo, bloodbraid/bust zoo, and 1 or 2 'bigger' zoo). So roughly 25% of the top 32, and only 12.5% of the top 8 (he did make it to the finals). I would say that zoo was not a good choice for the meta.
3 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
1 Figure of Destiny
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Wooly Thoctar
4 Negate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Ligtning Helix
Board
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Celestial Purge
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Lightning Helix
I was expecting to see a fair amount of "combo" (mainly of the cascade variety) and Zoo. The negates were main board for the combo matchup. I wasn't sure whether or not i wanted 1 or 2 jittes in the side and just ended up with on in the main at the last second in place of a helix. Bloodbraid is great for the mirror.
At the last second I pulled out 4 Spell Snips for the Fallouts. I wish I'd left them in. Actually, if I had a chance to do it again, I'd probably go 4 remands in their place and play a couple more basics in the main. I think you have to pretty much assume that anyone playing red (and not tribal zoo) has blood moons.
R1: Win vs UBR control with Jace. Game 1 he got a blood moon out turn 2, but but I went first and had enough threats to kill him. G2 he got me with a 2nd blood moon after I purged his first floating mana. Game I had a plains, sac land for a forest, and 2 pridemages in my opening hand. I was too fast for him.
R2: Lose to "Bigger" zoo. He didn't play the apes or lions and had Knight, bloodbraids and lightning angel(?!). Game 1 I started faster, got him low, he got the angel, we stalled, and eventually he swung w/everything. He was at 6, tapped out and empty handed, with ony the angle to block. I had 2 3/3 natacls. I just needed to draw 1 of 3 bloodbraids, 2 helixes, 4 bolts, or 2 paths that I had left in my deck. I drew a land. A common theme for the day. G2 I mulled and only got 1 land.
R3: Win vs AIR. He mulled and didn't hit the combo g1. Game 2 he made 8 goblins while I was holding a negate and hadn't gotten an island yet (counter the spell that puts them on 4+ mana). G3 he had to put a siege gang out that i bolted.
R4: Lose vs living Death. Game 1 I only got 2 lands and never hit a plains. I had 2 nacatls out and would have killed him with just those before he combod if they'd been 3/3s. Game 2 I held him off holding negate for a while, but never drew a 4th land, so I could never cast any of my 3 goyfs in hand (and still have negate). At 4 life (just needed 1 swing with goyf) he drew the land to cascade and have counter back up mana.
R5: Lose vs Hulk into hedron crab + arbor dryad. This was the low pont of my day. I just wasn't fast enough game 1 (and didn't know what he was playing until he won). Game 2 I found out he was playing blood moon....
R6: Lose vs Scapeshift. I put pressure on him early and got him to 3 while holding a negate (and he knew I had it). I only had mana for 1, so he went for it once he could counter mine. He didn't know I was holding helix though. Game 2 I didn't get enough pressure, and eventually he had 2 counters. G3 I mulled and still only saw 1 land. He proceeded to drop 3 vedalkin shackles.
R7: Win vs Blood Chief. Game 1 he dropped a quick blood moon (lost). Games 2 and 3 were long games of attrition that he almost won off of CA from blightning. The CA from finks and bloodbraids won it for me though
R8: Win vs affinity. He went first and was able to attack me with for 7 with a thopter on his 2nd turn that I couldn't kill (no bolt or path). It killed me the next turn. G2 and 3 I just had too much removal for him and was able to stay out from underneath his BLOOD MOONS. WTF?
R9: Lose to another "bigger" zoo match up. It was a long war of attrition again. I won game 1. Lost a long game 2 (he was in control most of the time). I started better game 3, but eventually we stalled and he top decked more bloodbraids and I top decked 2 lands.
4-5. My first season doing extended and my first Grand Prix. 9 rounds takes a LOOONG time. I think 8 is the most I've ever done. I started making mental mistakes sometime round 8.
I don't think I liked extened this season. There were too many decks that you had to worry about dropping a blood moon, 20/20, or cascading on turns 1 or 2 to really enjoy it.
Its a rare, so who cares about limited? Evaluating rares/mythics in limited is almost useless. You either open rare/M bombs, or you don't. It's a roll of the die, especially in a large set. Limited is built on commons and uncommons.
What do you do about chalice of the void at 1?