Mamajason, thanks for your long, but very informative post. It seems you know this deck very very well. I will try taking out my second spell burst for the one venser I have. It does seem pretty good come to think of it. Bounce a guy + combat trick, or remand effect with legs. I certainly like the legs part. I already play two teachings MD, have for a while. Never understood why more people didn't. My current build plays both 2 foresee and 2 aeon chronicler MD. Is that a bad Idea? If so, what should I remove them for?
I've considered using 3 Quagnoth and 1 breeding pool. It shouldn't be tough getting the mana, but the question is, will it work? It seems like it'd hose dralnu pretty bad, because they probably board out damnation. This should really catch them off guard, and present a much more imminent threat that they'll have to resolve Batman to deal with. Will that work? I could possibly get it turn 3-4 if I get the god draw of tron that fast. Turn 6 at the latest. What do you all think?
Now all we need is a instant or flash X spell.....
Seriously, we would rock so hard if we had Ghitu Fire. Sigh
Alright, I would cut foresee and whispers of the muse for three compulsive research. Compulsive takes care of your drawing for the early game, when you can do it turn four with a signet and still have counter backup.
The difference between my teachings and yours, is that you are splashing black, so teachings is a natural fit in the deck. What Im suggesting is putting a teachings into the straight u/r builds.
Also, Tron rapes Dralnu. Tron is favored game one unless he manages to bring out a very fast Teferi. Game two it just gets worse for them with Annex and/or Detritivore. The only application I see with Quagnoth, is to use as a sideboard card against Black Rack. But you can always just suspend a huge Chronic in that match-up and win anyways. Plus splashing green for Quagnoth messes up the mana base even more. Tron has difficulty running two colours, its even harder to run three, and nearly impossible to do four.
Alright, here is the list I played at Regionals. At first glance it looks janky since there are some japanese tech and metagame cards in there, but allow me to explain myself first before anyone decides to bash my build.
-2 Tidings: Ive never been that big a fan of tidings in this deck. It is quite possibly the only card I never want to see in my opening hand. Its really expensive, and against control you need be able to pay 5, and still have mana open for counter backup. A lot of poeple like to say that if you resolve Tidings you win, but how often do you tidings and draw say: 2 land, electrolyze, and a signet. More often than I like. I tried out Foresee in this slot and I was happy with it until someone from my testing group urged me to try out:
+2 Aeon Chronicler: Oh the Chronic, you won me so many games on Saturday. This is one of the best creatures in the format. Against decks with heavy discard, suspending for a lot ends up being far better than a tidings since you aren't drawing all the cards right away and running right into persecute. He helps you race dragonstorm. It is uncounterable draw against dralnu, and against aggro ... well he provides a fat blocker. Try him now!
-4 Sulfur Elemental: I really dont think Sulfy is a good choice for the current metagame. Most Boros decks have adapted to play around it, so its no longer gonna help you out in that matchup. The Chronic is better at racing control than the elemental is, and draws cards while your at it. Against Gruul, he ends up being a 3 mana volcanic hammer most of the time. I guess you could get two out vs Project X, but even that is asking a lot. Unless your meta for some reason still has older Boros builds in there, I dont suggest running Sulfur elemental.
+4 Volcanic Hammer: This is by far the jankiest card in my deck, and is a complete metagame choice. Against the two most prominent aggro decks in the format (Gruul and Zoo), volcanic hammer kills all of thier creatures sans Burning Tree Shaman and Giant Solifuge. If your on the play, the hammer is an excellent way to kill enablers against dredge, and it greatly shores up that matchup pre board. Lastly, sometimes you just need to hammer to the face, which surprisingly comes up rather often. I wouldnt run this card if you expect a ton of control, but I it greatly helps your game 1 vs the best aggro decks in the format.
-4 Mana Leak: Ive already discussed these to death in previous posts. The leak is good against aggro and in the early game. It also becomes a dead card later.
+3 Delay: Delay is a bit worse against aggro and in the early game. Late game its value increases by a lot. Unlike the leak, it is never a dead card. It does stupid things against dragonstorm and dredge, which are not great match-ups for us.
-3 Electrolyze: This card was good when the most prominent aggro deck went: turn one 2/1, turn two 2/2. Now the most prominent aggro decks go: turn one 2/3, turn two 3/3. This makes electrolyze much worse in the current metagame. Against control, it does nothing, and its too slow to answer dredge enablers. I replaced this card with another signet, and more Repeal, since that card is good against undercosted fat.
Japanese Tech:
+2 Venser, Shaper Savant: When I first saw Venser popping up in Japanese tron lists, I was like WTF?! Hes four mana (double blue on top of it) for an effect thats pretty good on an underwealming body. He seemed okay, but not great. Then I decided to test him, and he was amazing. Lets break down some of the things he did for me on Saturday:
Against Aggro: He attacked with rusalka and a scab-clan mauler. I play Venser, bouncing the Mauler and blocking the Rusalka.
Against Control: EOT, play Venser targeting your Dimir Aquaduct. Lolz
Against Dragonstorm: EOT, play Venser targeting your storage land. Oh Im sorry, did that completely mess up your combo math?
And thats just the tip of the iceburg. Hes pretty awesome, and gave me some games on Saturday I had no right to win.
+1 Mystical Teachings: Spell Burst has never been a card that I was crazy about in this deck. 75% of the time, it ends up being just a bad counterspell. So I took a page from the Japanese and replaced one with Mystical Teachings as a singleton. SO HOT. It allows me to tutor up Spell Burst when I can actually lock them out, or I can Grab a Hellkite if Im not drawing a win condition. It also allows me to put my signets 5-6 to good use, by giving me the black mana to flash it back for another hellkite. Its cute.
Lastly, some quick comments on the Main deck:
Tolaria West is nuts. If you can get a hold of some, please run them.
Ive never been in a situation where my Demonfire has been in the graveyard without my opponent being dead from it. I guess they could Persecute you, then Extirpate it, but thats never come up for me.
The Sideboard:
This is where I made a crucial mistake that got me two round losses, and knocked me out of Top 8 contention.
My board is pretty typical for the most part. Vore to make sure I win against control, Wildfire and Bottle Gnomes to give me a fighting chance vs aggro. Crypt to allow me to actually win the Dredge MU. Pilferer to help win D-Storm, while also helping out vs Dralnu and other Counter decks.
Heres the problem: I only tested post board against D-Storm a few games since I didnt have the time to test the week before regionals (I was writing my Senior thesis). In those few games, I brought out an early Riptide Pilferer and it was nutz. However, in the tournament, I played against D-Storm twice. I never got an early Pilferer out, and when the deck combo'd off against me I was holding a Pilferer every time. If I were to play in regionals with my deck tomorrow, my sideboard would be:
If I had a Trickbind in my hand over the Pilferer in those games, I would've won. I cant say for certain wether or not I wouldve top 8'd since my Match ups wouldve been different if I had won against the first against Dragonstorm, but Trickbind would've gave me a greatly increased my chances. Also, Pilferer against control never really came up, but I won all my control matches without it anyways.
I went 5-3 taking 23rd place because I had great breakers. My losses were to dragonstorm twice, and zoo. The only reason I lost vs zoo was because in game one I didnt draw a win condition or counters fast enough, and game two I mulled to five and still didn't draw land.
Random thing to consider:
Ancestral Visions. The value of this card has gone up considerably since Future Sights release, as now Tolaria West can tutor for card draw. My friend has been having great success with it in Dralnu, and I think its something worth testing.
@ Otan: Yeah the game against Dredge is a hard to win game one. Volcanic Hammer helps, as does repeal (it slows them down). Post board it gets much better, especially with Tolaria West fetching Crypt. Also, my build rarely losses game one to D-Storm, and in the tournament, I won game one both times I was paired against it. Aeon Chronicler is usually the MVP here since it puts them on a very fast clock. Four Repeals works wonders against Lotus Bloom and delaying a ritual or telling time will usually slow them down enough for you to win. Venser also does some annoying things to slow them down, usually targeting a storage land with some counters on it, since it makes it harder for them to dowse you out.
Squee return is pretty awesome I have to admit. I never got a chance to play with him before since I wasnt playing competitvely when masques was out, so Im looking forward to being able to use him.
In terms of the art selection, here are my guesses:
1: I have no idea of what this could be in H-P. Heartbeat of Spring maybe, but then the art would be a significant downgrade for that card.
2: Mending Hands It seems likely that this is the card, especially since the focus of the art is on the healer's hands touching the wounded.
3: Im hoping that this is Loxodon Heirarch, since that would be muy picante. The argument that multi-colored cards dont appear in the core sets isnt valid since 10th is breaking a lot of rules (see borders and legends). His staff even looks selesnian.
4: Could be Llanowar elves. My problem is the little detail in the art on the bottom right. It looks like some sort of trap.
5: Known
6: I really dont like the idea that this is Legacy weapon. Despite the abundance of artefacts in the picture, the art just doesnt seem right for an artefact. I would say Treasure trove is this wasnt an H-P art collection. Thus, Im not sure what this could be, but itd be disappointed if it is the Legacy Weapon.
7: Although I love the similarites to the old picture of Lure. This art just doesnt seem green enough. But Im not sure what else it could be.
9: Knight of Dawn maybe? Paladin en-Vec? The problem is that didnt wizards have a policy in which Knights were only supposed to be depicted with horses? But since Knight of Dusk breaks this rule, this knight might too.
17: If this art wasnt so black aligned, I would say Puppeteer. It cant be Necromancy since that card is a bit complicated. Not sure on this one.
18: I hope this isnt Paladin en-Vec because this art is very boring. From the three spikes on the head, to the knightly horse, to the sun and moon ax, its looking like the Paladin. Personally, Im hoping its Field Marshal so I never have a card with this art in a deck of mine.
i had a great matchup on regionals against board control decks (korlash, B\W control etc..) and countrerspell decks (Dranlu, Dranlu etc...)
althou my sideboard was great against aggro decks in the last 2 matches against boros and MGA (splashed black.. didnt c why) i had no luck and draw-ed lands and few counterspells , in any case i had 1 game with each decks where i had bottlegnomes and pyroclasm ftw! and than bogardan/WF to clear the table
well i would like comments on the deck...
(note: Detritivore suxs against aggro... but i probably know u ppl know that :D)
First thing I noticed is: Why no Tolaria West? Its sooo good as a two of in the deck. You can play it turn 1 or 3 without problems if you need the blue mana, or it can be an uncounterable tutor to grab a factory against control or to complete the tron.
Either MD four sulfurs or dont run any at all. Personally, I dont use them anymore. Boros has adapted to include more burn and red creatures, and your MU against decks like dralnu is good enough already.
I mentioned in a previous post that detritivore should be in the board only. Basically, your game one against control is very favourable anyways, and once you side in the vores your golden game 2. However, drawing the vore against storm or aggro is very bad. Just keep him in the board to make sure you win control, hes a dead card in too many MUs otherwise.
Seriously Ignorant bliss? Persecute sucks, but just counter it. You need slots in your board to deal with a few discard spells. Something like crypt would be better to help shore up this decks abysmal dredge MU.
How did Pyroclasm work for you? It doesnt do anything against gruul and zoo, the best aggro in the format, so why run it?
How did you do in regionals with this build?
Anyways, hope that helped. I will post my regionals list and explantions a bit later. I went 5-3, but I couldve done much better if I switched one card in my sideboard for another. More on that later though.
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?! how can you pass up four lands especially when you are running D@MN near no basics and little, and i mean very little colored sources.
Im pretty sure hes talking about when he casts foresee after already completing tron and taking control of the game. Since thats usually when youd be casting tidings.
IDK, I found aeon chronicler to be better than both in terms of late game card draw. Since it also doubles as a finisher (which has been relevant on several occassions)
so this is my idea on the deck what do you think???
To me, it looks like you roll over and die vs both gruul and probably dredge. Your deck looks like itd be pretty good against a control based metagame though, but if you look at my post from a page ago, youlll see that its likely that the regionals metagame will be a plurality of aggro. Run this list against an aggro meta and you wont do well.
However, if your hellbent on playing three colour tron here are some suggestions:
1) You list is heavy in white and blue, with a splash of red for hellkite and detritivore. I understand the red splash for the vore, but the dragon is red intensive in a deck with few colour mana sources. Sure you have signets and the relict, but you need blue for counters and lots of white for akroma. So either cut the hellkites and make the deck have a red splash, or cut akroma/ hussar, and just splash white for second ground. The former is probably better becuase:
2) If you play U/W/r, then you should enough white sources to run wrath! This is good since becuase wrath, hussar, and repeals, you might actually be able to live long enough to win vs gruul!
3) Take the detritivore out of the main deck. I understand that a lot of people love to MD him, since he is so powerful in this format. But really, how good does that detritivore really look when its in your opening hand and your opponent starts out with stomping ground/kird ape or forestllanowar mentor.
The fact of the matter is, that there are four main decks to beat in standard right now, dralnu, dredge, dragonstorm, and gruul. Out of those four, the detritivore is only really good against dralnu, which is a deck tron has a good game against anyways.
Now, am I saying Vore is a bad card? No. Am I saying dont run him? No. Im saying please reserve him for the board. He basically makes matches like beach house, solar flare, and the mirror even easier for us to win. But you want your MD tuned to beat the top four.
4) Why no compulsive research? I understand you have the chronic and hussar, but research is so powerful and helps you dig for tron or a wrath a lot faster than the other two.
5) Seriously, delay. This is a very controversial card these days, but ive playtested tron so much over the past few weeks with delay replacing mana leak and delay is nutz. Its just so much better in the late game than leak its not even funny. Back when I played mana leak, there were many times when I was sitting on a bunch of useless mana leaks. Delay, while not as good as mana leak during the first say five turns, never ever becomes a dead card. Plus, delay does some very cute things, like suspending a seething song against dragonstorm and having them die from mana burn during thier upkeep (yes that has come up before).
A lot of poeple also dont like delay, since they think that youll still have to deal with the threat later. But in my testing, after delaying something early, Ive never though "Ah crap, that kird ape is back and im screwed!" Ive always drawn the answers I need or have taken control of the game by that point. But sure mana leak wouldve been better against that second turn ape, but the drawback of delay was really not that bad.
On the other side however, ive been in burn range against gruul before, and after wiping the board with a hellkite, they try and char me. Its the late game, and they have six mana out. Mana leak in my hand wouldve killed me. Remand at least could draw me another counterspell. And Delay would have suspended that char long enough for the hellkite to swing for the win. These types of scenarios come up way more often than you think.
With those in mind, here is a modified U/W/r tron list:
Thats just a rough idea of what itd do for three colour tron. The mana base is a little weird, but thats what happens you try to squeeze three colours into a deck with 13 colourless lands. Personally, I don't think three colours is worth it for the funky mana.
Also, what's the usual regionals meta? people generally expect heavy aggro or heavy control, I just can't remember which.
Its most likely to be heavy aggro. I personally think that the German metagame is a pretty accurate indication of what to expect. For those of you who havent seen it, or are too lazy to go look at the German regional results thread, the metagame was this:
That means that approximately 61% of the metagame is aggro (Im counting all kinds of aggro here, not just Gruul but aggro control like Rack and Angelfire and aggro combo like Project X and Dredge)
Now with that in mind, Tron has its best game vs other control decks since it has a greater inevitability than most control. Its aggro match-up is less than stellar however.
Basically it boils down to this: For American regionals, if your deck cant beat Gruul, then dont bother showing up. Tron is not a good deck for this metagame, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you tweak the MD to have an easier win vs aggro (This is what Im doing).
so thats it. i have changed it up a bit since i think that the ghostfire and scrouges are well worth the slots so what do you all think about this list??
I'mnot sure how I feel about running 7 top heavy finishers in this deck. If your gonna run scourges, at least have them replace a few hellkites. How about this:
Then you have two slots open for more signets or something else.
Either way, I'm not convinced Scourges even has a place in this deck. I'd almost always rather see a hellkite. The flash on it is a huge deal against other control decks and it can burn to the face, which ends games quickly when paired with good ol' demonfire.
In regards to Ghostfire: I haven't gotten the chance to test it yet, but from a theoretical standpoint, I don't like it. The card to compare it to in this deck is electrolyze, since thats what ghostfire seems to be replacing in your build. Both are three mana damage dealing spells. Ghostfire is easier to cast than electrolyze, and does one more damage, which means it can actually kill more than just elves. On the other hand, electrolyze can potentially set up a three or one with its damage splitting, and it cantrips. Any spell that kills creatures/burns players while simultaneously helping me dig for tron is awesome. Lastly, ghostfire's colourless ability is esentially useless, since Sulfur elemental already kills Soltari Priest , Paladin En-Vec is not really seeing much play right now, and unless you have two ghostfires, you cant kill Akroma.
Speaking of future sight, there are two cards from the set which catch my eye for tron: Delay and Molten Disaster. Obviously Delay would replace Mana Leak as our two mana counterspell alongside remand. Delay is good early game and very good late game since you can usually kill your oponent by the time the spell is unsuspended. Mana Leak on the otherhand is great early game and suboptimal late game. Personally I would rather run Delay, especially since I play this deck more tempo oriented and its the perfect card alongside remand for that strategy.
Molten Disaster: Earthquake would've been a welcome card for this deck, but future sight gave us an uncounterable, unrespondable version of earthquake instead. One of the problems I had with wildfire vs any green aggro deck, is playing it and having them respond with various pump spells. I could counter some, but at least one would get through, and I'd still be facing a threat on the board. Molten Disaster doesn't have that kind of disadvantage, and it could be used to deal that final uncounterable damage vs Dralnu. The problem? Triple red when kickered in a deck where coloured mana is a little less plentiful. Plus its a little slow vs most aggro decks. I think it could be worth maybe one or two slots in the maindeck, or at least have a place in the sideboard, maybe replacing wildfire.
The opposition party owned in the election. The Republicans lost some 26 seats in the House of Representatives, and the Democrat won by a hair in my state. Even if the Virginia Democrat does not win, we still have 50 of the 100 seats in the Senate. Weet.
Its looking like the Virginia democrat is gonna win. Last night after 100% of the votes were counted he was ahead, and I doubt a recount will change that.
Also, woooo Nancy Pelosi is Speaker of the House! Its nice seeing al liberal representing San Franciso being two seats away from the Presidency.
Alright I have to chime in on the liberalism/conservativism theme going on in here.
I myself am Liberal, but living in a place like Santa Cruz means that Im surrounded by radical liberals. Ive actually begun to hate liberalism a little bit here since so many poeple refuse to acknowledge any other point of view other than thier own and have a tendancy to judge harshy anybody they run into who doesnt agree with thier politics. Hell I even get criticized for playing video games and not eating only organic food, but thats a whole 'nother story all together.
Becuase of this, myself and my roomates make it a point to act as Republican as we can around these poeple, living fully to our creed which is: "Our political affliation is the opposite of whatever you just said." Living upto this simply makes for more interesting conversations. It also demonstrates to others our ability to reflect on both sides of the spectrum and our willingness to know and understand both sides of the story, which sadly alot of poeple dont do.
That being said, I dont know much about Hodoku, but it seems to me that he generates the most controversy here. I feel (although im not really sure) that he is one of the few people on these boards who makes very conservative posts and lets his point of view, no matter how extreme, be know. If this is the case, then I actually commend Hodoku for posting conservatively on what seems to be a liberal-slanted message board. Even though I dont agree with him on much of what he says, the more points of view represented on this message board the better.
Now, in regards to Goatchunx's message to Hodoku. Let me first say that I dont approve. Its fine if you dont agree with his politics and want to have a rational debate with him, but I wouldve messaged him first inviting him into such a debate. What you did with your message, is simply attack his politics, albeit in a reasoned and rational way. Its no surprise he reacted the way he did, and I probably would have reacted the same way if someone randomly wrote me a PM telling me that all my arguements are wrong. Although I agree with you on many of the points presented in your letter, I found it kinda passive aggressive and I dont think it was the right way of going about it.
If you really really wanted to get him into a debate, you should have written him something like this: "Hey Hodoku, Ive seen some of the things youve written on the boards here and I would like to have a talk or debate with you about politics." He might have gone for it, he might not have. But what you did with your letter is put him into a defensive position immediately, which guaranteed that he was not going to respond positively or constructively.
Confiscate: It dies every time I play it. Seriously It never does anything, and is a worse win condition than whatever you have maindeck. Pass.
Confiscate single handedly won me my third game against Solar Flare at States. He drops a COP:R, I try to counter but he out conters me. Later on into the match I confiscate the circle, and hellkite beats him down for the win.
Big Guys Bogardan Hellkite - I ran this card for the longest time, and it worked out pretty well. He could randomly flash in when an opponent taps out and the 5 damage is somewhat nice. The problem is that he costs 8 mana, which makes it pretty much unplayable unless tron is in play. Although he can get the job done, there's a better creature you can run.
Really? I found hellkite to be almost invaluable to me. He ends the game way quicker then SSS, and isnt even that much slower since he only cost one more mana. Ive even hardcasted him without tron a few times at States. I remember there was one time at states I was playing against Grull and I didnt have a wildfire so he had enough damage on the board to kill me next turn. He did enough damage to himself to get down to 12 (I had electrolyzed him once I believe). I flashed a hellkite EOT, did five to his dome, attacked on my turn, then electrolyzed him again FTW. If that had been a SSS or a whelk I wouldve lost the match.
The hellkite functioned as a one sided wrath for me plenty of times. Plus his coming into play effect at the dome has won me several games when my oponent was low on life. I dont know, maybe I play tron more aggresively than you do, but to me hes been an MVP.
I ran this build at California champs going 6-3. I shouldve done better but I misplayed my last match to U/G beats, and had two terribly slow draws in a row against Boros (three lands, two signets in my opening hand after already mulling to five! grrrr)
In retrospect, I should have ran -2 Spell Snare as they werent that useful in my match ups and +1 Electrolyze and +1 Repeal. Prismatic lens was much better than I thought it would be and helped out a lot more than just running two random simic signet.
Why? Quicksand is on that list. There are no more lands slots left in the set.
From the number crunch:
348. Adarkar Wastes
349. Battlefield Forge
350. Brushland
351. Caves of Koilos
352. Faerie Conclave
353. Forbidding Watchtower
354. Ghitu Encampment
355. Karplusan Forest
356. Llanowar Wastes
357. Shivan Reef
358. Spawning Pool
359. Sulfurous Springs
360. Terramorphic Expanse
361. Treetop Village
362. Underground River
363. Yavimaya Coast
thus, no room for the 'Sand.
Also, the pictures are small and all display art we already know.
Seriously, we would rock so hard if we had Ghitu Fire. Sigh
Alright, I would cut foresee and whispers of the muse for three compulsive research. Compulsive takes care of your drawing for the early game, when you can do it turn four with a signet and still have counter backup.
The difference between my teachings and yours, is that you are splashing black, so teachings is a natural fit in the deck. What Im suggesting is putting a teachings into the straight u/r builds.
Also, Tron rapes Dralnu. Tron is favored game one unless he manages to bring out a very fast Teferi. Game two it just gets worse for them with Annex and/or Detritivore. The only application I see with Quagnoth, is to use as a sideboard card against Black Rack. But you can always just suspend a huge Chronic in that match-up and win anyways. Plus splashing green for Quagnoth messes up the mana base even more. Tron has difficulty running two colours, its even harder to run three, and nearly impossible to do four.
1 Urza's Factory
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Steam Vents
4 Shivan Reef
1 Island
2 Tolaria West
Creatures
3 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Aeon Chronicler
4 Izzet Signet
4 Repeal
3 Delay
4 Remand
2 Demonfire
1 Spell Burst
4 Compulsive Research
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Dimir Signet
1 Mystical Teachings
3 Detritivore
3 Bottle Gnomes
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Riptide Pilferer
2 Wildfire
-2 Tidings: Ive never been that big a fan of tidings in this deck. It is quite possibly the only card I never want to see in my opening hand. Its really expensive, and against control you need be able to pay 5, and still have mana open for counter backup. A lot of poeple like to say that if you resolve Tidings you win, but how often do you tidings and draw say: 2 land, electrolyze, and a signet. More often than I like. I tried out Foresee in this slot and I was happy with it until someone from my testing group urged me to try out:
+2 Aeon Chronicler: Oh the Chronic, you won me so many games on Saturday. This is one of the best creatures in the format. Against decks with heavy discard, suspending for a lot ends up being far better than a tidings since you aren't drawing all the cards right away and running right into persecute. He helps you race dragonstorm. It is uncounterable draw against dralnu, and against aggro ... well he provides a fat blocker. Try him now!
-4 Sulfur Elemental: I really dont think Sulfy is a good choice for the current metagame. Most Boros decks have adapted to play around it, so its no longer gonna help you out in that matchup. The Chronic is better at racing control than the elemental is, and draws cards while your at it. Against Gruul, he ends up being a 3 mana volcanic hammer most of the time. I guess you could get two out vs Project X, but even that is asking a lot. Unless your meta for some reason still has older Boros builds in there, I dont suggest running Sulfur elemental.
+4 Volcanic Hammer: This is by far the jankiest card in my deck, and is a complete metagame choice. Against the two most prominent aggro decks in the format (Gruul and Zoo), volcanic hammer kills all of thier creatures sans Burning Tree Shaman and Giant Solifuge. If your on the play, the hammer is an excellent way to kill enablers against dredge, and it greatly shores up that matchup pre board. Lastly, sometimes you just need to hammer to the face, which surprisingly comes up rather often. I wouldnt run this card if you expect a ton of control, but I it greatly helps your game 1 vs the best aggro decks in the format.
-4 Mana Leak: Ive already discussed these to death in previous posts. The leak is good against aggro and in the early game. It also becomes a dead card later.
+3 Delay: Delay is a bit worse against aggro and in the early game. Late game its value increases by a lot. Unlike the leak, it is never a dead card. It does stupid things against dragonstorm and dredge, which are not great match-ups for us.
-3 Electrolyze: This card was good when the most prominent aggro deck went: turn one 2/1, turn two 2/2. Now the most prominent aggro decks go: turn one 2/3, turn two 3/3. This makes electrolyze much worse in the current metagame. Against control, it does nothing, and its too slow to answer dredge enablers. I replaced this card with another signet, and more Repeal, since that card is good against undercosted fat.
Japanese Tech:
+2 Venser, Shaper Savant: When I first saw Venser popping up in Japanese tron lists, I was like WTF?! Hes four mana (double blue on top of it) for an effect thats pretty good on an underwealming body. He seemed okay, but not great. Then I decided to test him, and he was amazing. Lets break down some of the things he did for me on Saturday:
Against Aggro: He attacked with rusalka and a scab-clan mauler. I play Venser, bouncing the Mauler and blocking the Rusalka.
Against Control: EOT, play Venser targeting your Dimir Aquaduct. Lolz
Against Dragonstorm: EOT, play Venser targeting your storage land. Oh Im sorry, did that completely mess up your combo math?
And thats just the tip of the iceburg. Hes pretty awesome, and gave me some games on Saturday I had no right to win.
+1 Mystical Teachings: Spell Burst has never been a card that I was crazy about in this deck. 75% of the time, it ends up being just a bad counterspell. So I took a page from the Japanese and replaced one with Mystical Teachings as a singleton. SO HOT. It allows me to tutor up Spell Burst when I can actually lock them out, or I can Grab a Hellkite if Im not drawing a win condition. It also allows me to put my signets 5-6 to good use, by giving me the black mana to flash it back for another hellkite. Its cute.
Lastly, some quick comments on the Main deck:
Tolaria West is nuts. If you can get a hold of some, please run them.
Ive never been in a situation where my Demonfire has been in the graveyard without my opponent being dead from it. I guess they could Persecute you, then Extirpate it, but thats never come up for me.
The Sideboard:
This is where I made a crucial mistake that got me two round losses, and knocked me out of Top 8 contention.
My board is pretty typical for the most part. Vore to make sure I win against control, Wildfire and Bottle Gnomes to give me a fighting chance vs aggro. Crypt to allow me to actually win the Dredge MU. Pilferer to help win D-Storm, while also helping out vs Dralnu and other Counter decks.
Heres the problem: I only tested post board against D-Storm a few games since I didnt have the time to test the week before regionals (I was writing my Senior thesis). In those few games, I brought out an early Riptide Pilferer and it was nutz. However, in the tournament, I played against D-Storm twice. I never got an early Pilferer out, and when the deck combo'd off against me I was holding a Pilferer every time. If I were to play in regionals with my deck tomorrow, my sideboard would be:
-4 Riptide Pilferer, +3 Trickbind, +1 Wildfire
If I had a Trickbind in my hand over the Pilferer in those games, I would've won. I cant say for certain wether or not I wouldve top 8'd since my Match ups wouldve been different if I had won against the first against Dragonstorm, but Trickbind would've gave me a greatly increased my chances. Also, Pilferer against control never really came up, but I won all my control matches without it anyways.
I went 5-3 taking 23rd place because I had great breakers. My losses were to dragonstorm twice, and zoo. The only reason I lost vs zoo was because in game one I didnt draw a win condition or counters fast enough, and game two I mulled to five and still didn't draw land.
Random thing to consider:
Ancestral Visions. The value of this card has gone up considerably since Future Sights release, as now Tolaria West can tutor for card draw. My friend has been having great success with it in Dralnu, and I think its something worth testing.
@ Otan: Yeah the game against Dredge is a hard to win game one. Volcanic Hammer helps, as does repeal (it slows them down). Post board it gets much better, especially with Tolaria West fetching Crypt. Also, my build rarely losses game one to D-Storm, and in the tournament, I won game one both times I was paired against it. Aeon Chronicler is usually the MVP here since it puts them on a very fast clock. Four Repeals works wonders against Lotus Bloom and delaying a ritual or telling time will usually slow them down enough for you to win. Venser also does some annoying things to slow them down, usually targeting a storage land with some counters on it, since it makes it harder for them to dowse you out.
In terms of the art selection, here are my guesses:
1: I have no idea of what this could be in H-P. Heartbeat of Spring maybe, but then the art would be a significant downgrade for that card.
2: Mending Hands It seems likely that this is the card, especially since the focus of the art is on the healer's hands touching the wounded.
3: Im hoping that this is Loxodon Heirarch, since that would be muy picante. The argument that multi-colored cards dont appear in the core sets isnt valid since 10th is breaking a lot of rules (see borders and legends). His staff even looks selesnian.
4: Could be Llanowar elves. My problem is the little detail in the art on the bottom right. It looks like some sort of trap.
5: Known
6: I really dont like the idea that this is Legacy weapon. Despite the abundance of artefacts in the picture, the art just doesnt seem right for an artefact. I would say Treasure trove is this wasnt an H-P art collection. Thus, Im not sure what this could be, but itd be disappointed if it is the Legacy Weapon.
7: Although I love the similarites to the old picture of Lure. This art just doesnt seem green enough. But Im not sure what else it could be.
8: Might of oaks obviously
9: Knight of Dawn maybe? Paladin en-Vec? The problem is that didnt wizards have a policy in which Knights were only supposed to be depicted with horses? But since Knight of Dusk breaks this rule, this knight might too.
10:Known
11: Joiner Adept
12: Mana Barbs maybe because it looks like those barbs are attacking that mana producing artefact. It could also be mindstone.
13: Known
14: Known
15: Known
16: Primitive Etchings seems to match the runes depicted in this art.
17: If this art wasnt so black aligned, I would say Puppeteer. It cant be Necromancy since that card is a bit complicated. Not sure on this one.
18: I hope this isnt Paladin en-Vec because this art is very boring. From the three spikes on the head, to the knightly horse, to the sun and moon ax, its looking like the Paladin. Personally, Im hoping its Field Marshal so I never have a card with this art in a deck of mine.
19: Known.
First thing I noticed is: Why no Tolaria West? Its sooo good as a two of in the deck. You can play it turn 1 or 3 without problems if you need the blue mana, or it can be an uncounterable tutor to grab a factory against control or to complete the tron.
Either MD four sulfurs or dont run any at all. Personally, I dont use them anymore. Boros has adapted to include more burn and red creatures, and your MU against decks like dralnu is good enough already.
I mentioned in a previous post that detritivore should be in the board only. Basically, your game one against control is very favourable anyways, and once you side in the vores your golden game 2. However, drawing the vore against storm or aggro is very bad. Just keep him in the board to make sure you win control, hes a dead card in too many MUs otherwise.
If you cant afford demonfire run disintegrate. Blaze is just horrible.
Seriously Ignorant bliss? Persecute sucks, but just counter it. You need slots in your board to deal with a few discard spells. Something like crypt would be better to help shore up this decks abysmal dredge MU.
How did Pyroclasm work for you? It doesnt do anything against gruul and zoo, the best aggro in the format, so why run it?
How did you do in regionals with this build?
Anyways, hope that helped. I will post my regionals list and explantions a bit later. I went 5-3, but I couldve done much better if I switched one card in my sideboard for another. More on that later though.
Im pretty sure hes talking about when he casts foresee after already completing tron and taking control of the game. Since thats usually when youd be casting tidings.
IDK, I found aeon chronicler to be better than both in terms of late game card draw. Since it also doubles as a finisher (which has been relevant on several occassions)
To me, it looks like you roll over and die vs both gruul and probably dredge. Your deck looks like itd be pretty good against a control based metagame though, but if you look at my post from a page ago, youlll see that its likely that the regionals metagame will be a plurality of aggro. Run this list against an aggro meta and you wont do well.
However, if your hellbent on playing three colour tron here are some suggestions:
1) You list is heavy in white and blue, with a splash of red for hellkite and detritivore. I understand the red splash for the vore, but the dragon is red intensive in a deck with few colour mana sources. Sure you have signets and the relict, but you need blue for counters and lots of white for akroma. So either cut the hellkites and make the deck have a red splash, or cut akroma/ hussar, and just splash white for second ground. The former is probably better becuase:
2) If you play U/W/r, then you should enough white sources to run wrath! This is good since becuase wrath, hussar, and repeals, you might actually be able to live long enough to win vs gruul!
3) Take the detritivore out of the main deck. I understand that a lot of people love to MD him, since he is so powerful in this format. But really, how good does that detritivore really look when its in your opening hand and your opponent starts out with stomping ground/kird ape or forest llanowar mentor.
The fact of the matter is, that there are four main decks to beat in standard right now, dralnu, dredge, dragonstorm, and gruul. Out of those four, the detritivore is only really good against dralnu, which is a deck tron has a good game against anyways.
Now, am I saying Vore is a bad card? No. Am I saying dont run him? No. Im saying please reserve him for the board. He basically makes matches like beach house, solar flare, and the mirror even easier for us to win. But you want your MD tuned to beat the top four.
4) Why no compulsive research? I understand you have the chronic and hussar, but research is so powerful and helps you dig for tron or a wrath a lot faster than the other two.
5) Seriously, delay. This is a very controversial card these days, but ive playtested tron so much over the past few weeks with delay replacing mana leak and delay is nutz. Its just so much better in the late game than leak its not even funny. Back when I played mana leak, there were many times when I was sitting on a bunch of useless mana leaks. Delay, while not as good as mana leak during the first say five turns, never ever becomes a dead card. Plus, delay does some very cute things, like suspending a seething song against dragonstorm and having them die from mana burn during thier upkeep (yes that has come up before).
A lot of poeple also dont like delay, since they think that youll still have to deal with the threat later. But in my testing, after delaying something early, Ive never though "Ah crap, that kird ape is back and im screwed!" Ive always drawn the answers I need or have taken control of the game by that point. But sure mana leak wouldve been better against that second turn ape, but the drawback of delay was really not that bad.
On the other side however, ive been in burn range against gruul before, and after wiping the board with a hellkite, they try and char me. Its the late game, and they have six mana out. Mana leak in my hand wouldve killed me. Remand at least could draw me another counterspell. And Delay would have suspended that char long enough for the hellkite to swing for the win. These types of scenarios come up way more often than you think.
With those in mind, here is a modified U/W/r tron list:
4 tower
4 mine
4 power plant
1 urza's factory
4 steam vents
4 hallowed fountain
2 tolaria west
4 court hussar
2 aeon chronicler
3 akroma, angel of wrath
4 remand
4 delay
4 repeal
4 azorius signet
2 coalition relic
3 compulsive research
2 demonfire
3 Wrath of god
4 sacred ground
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 tormod's crypt
3 detritivore
Thats just a rough idea of what itd do for three colour tron. The mana base is a little weird, but thats what happens you try to squeeze three colours into a deck with 13 colourless lands. Personally, I don't think three colours is worth it for the funky mana.
Hope my suggestions were useful.
Its most likely to be heavy aggro. I personally think that the German metagame is a pretty accurate indication of what to expect. For those of you who havent seen it, or are too lazy to go look at the German regional results thread, the metagame was this:
Metagame Breakdown
Gruul: 23
Dredge: 15
Dragonstorm: 13
Dralnu: 13
WUR-Angelfire: 12
UR-Tron: 10
Zoo: 8
UG-Scryb & Force: 8
RB-Aggrocontrol: 7
WB-Aggrocontrol: 7
Project X: 6
GW-Midrange: 5
MonoB-Rack: 5
GWB-Rock: 5
MonoR-Aggro: 5
MonoB-Beatdown: 4
WBR-Angelcontrol: 4
Boros: 3
MonoG-Aggro: 3
UR-Magnivore: 3
SolarFlare: 2
UGW: 2
UR-Storm: 2
GB-AggroRock: 2
Rogue: 12
Total: 179
That means that approximately 61% of the metagame is aggro (Im counting all kinds of aggro here, not just Gruul but aggro control like Rack and Angelfire and aggro combo like Project X and Dredge)
Now with that in mind, Tron has its best game vs other control decks since it has a greater inevitability than most control. Its aggro match-up is less than stellar however.
Basically it boils down to this: For American regionals, if your deck cant beat Gruul, then dont bother showing up. Tron is not a good deck for this metagame, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you tweak the MD to have an easier win vs aggro (This is what Im doing).
I'mnot sure how I feel about running 7 top heavy finishers in this deck. If your gonna run scourges, at least have them replace a few hellkites. How about this:
3 bogardan hellkite
2 scourge of kher ridges
Then you have two slots open for more signets or something else.
Either way, I'm not convinced Scourges even has a place in this deck. I'd almost always rather see a hellkite. The flash on it is a huge deal against other control decks and it can burn to the face, which ends games quickly when paired with good ol' demonfire.
In regards to Ghostfire: I haven't gotten the chance to test it yet, but from a theoretical standpoint, I don't like it. The card to compare it to in this deck is electrolyze, since thats what ghostfire seems to be replacing in your build. Both are three mana damage dealing spells. Ghostfire is easier to cast than electrolyze, and does one more damage, which means it can actually kill more than just elves. On the other hand, electrolyze can potentially set up a three or one with its damage splitting, and it cantrips. Any spell that kills creatures/burns players while simultaneously helping me dig for tron is awesome. Lastly, ghostfire's colourless ability is esentially useless, since Sulfur elemental already kills Soltari Priest , Paladin En-Vec is not really seeing much play right now, and unless you have two ghostfires, you cant kill Akroma.
Speaking of future sight, there are two cards from the set which catch my eye for tron: Delay and Molten Disaster. Obviously Delay would replace Mana Leak as our two mana counterspell alongside remand. Delay is good early game and very good late game since you can usually kill your oponent by the time the spell is unsuspended. Mana Leak on the otherhand is great early game and suboptimal late game. Personally I would rather run Delay, especially since I play this deck more tempo oriented and its the perfect card alongside remand for that strategy.
Molten Disaster: Earthquake would've been a welcome card for this deck, but future sight gave us an uncounterable, unrespondable version of earthquake instead. One of the problems I had with wildfire vs any green aggro deck, is playing it and having them respond with various pump spells. I could counter some, but at least one would get through, and I'd still be facing a threat on the board. Molten Disaster doesn't have that kind of disadvantage, and it could be used to deal that final uncounterable damage vs Dralnu. The problem? Triple red when kickered in a deck where coloured mana is a little less plentiful. Plus its a little slow vs most aggro decks. I think it could be worth maybe one or two slots in the maindeck, or at least have a place in the sideboard, maybe replacing wildfire.
o Frow Lock Sriver,
it is to you I drink to,
go Japanese tech
Its looking like the Virginia democrat is gonna win. Last night after 100% of the votes were counted he was ahead, and I doubt a recount will change that.
Also, woooo Nancy Pelosi is Speaker of the House! Its nice seeing al liberal representing San Franciso being two seats away from the Presidency.
I myself am Liberal, but living in a place like Santa Cruz means that Im surrounded by radical liberals. Ive actually begun to hate liberalism a little bit here since so many poeple refuse to acknowledge any other point of view other than thier own and have a tendancy to judge harshy anybody they run into who doesnt agree with thier politics. Hell I even get criticized for playing video games and not eating only organic food, but thats a whole 'nother story all together.
Becuase of this, myself and my roomates make it a point to act as Republican as we can around these poeple, living fully to our creed which is: "Our political affliation is the opposite of whatever you just said." Living upto this simply makes for more interesting conversations. It also demonstrates to others our ability to reflect on both sides of the spectrum and our willingness to know and understand both sides of the story, which sadly alot of poeple dont do.
That being said, I dont know much about Hodoku, but it seems to me that he generates the most controversy here. I feel (although im not really sure) that he is one of the few people on these boards who makes very conservative posts and lets his point of view, no matter how extreme, be know. If this is the case, then I actually commend Hodoku for posting conservatively on what seems to be a liberal-slanted message board. Even though I dont agree with him on much of what he says, the more points of view represented on this message board the better.
Now, in regards to Goatchunx's message to Hodoku. Let me first say that I dont approve. Its fine if you dont agree with his politics and want to have a rational debate with him, but I wouldve messaged him first inviting him into such a debate. What you did with your message, is simply attack his politics, albeit in a reasoned and rational way. Its no surprise he reacted the way he did, and I probably would have reacted the same way if someone randomly wrote me a PM telling me that all my arguements are wrong. Although I agree with you on many of the points presented in your letter, I found it kinda passive aggressive and I dont think it was the right way of going about it.
If you really really wanted to get him into a debate, you should have written him something like this: "Hey Hodoku, Ive seen some of the things youve written on the boards here and I would like to have a talk or debate with you about politics." He might have gone for it, he might not have. But what you did with your letter is put him into a defensive position immediately, which guaranteed that he was not going to respond positively or constructively.
Confiscate single handedly won me my third game against Solar Flare at States. He drops a COP:R, I try to counter but he out conters me. Later on into the match I confiscate the circle, and hellkite beats him down for the win.
Really? I found hellkite to be almost invaluable to me. He ends the game way quicker then SSS, and isnt even that much slower since he only cost one more mana. Ive even hardcasted him without tron a few times at States. I remember there was one time at states I was playing against Grull and I didnt have a wildfire so he had enough damage on the board to kill me next turn. He did enough damage to himself to get down to 12 (I had electrolyzed him once I believe). I flashed a hellkite EOT, did five to his dome, attacked on my turn, then electrolyzed him again FTW. If that had been a SSS or a whelk I wouldve lost the match.
The hellkite functioned as a one sided wrath for me plenty of times. Plus his coming into play effect at the dome has won me several games when my oponent was low on life. I dont know, maybe I play tron more aggresively than you do, but to me hes been an MVP.
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Shivan Reef
2 Island
4 Steam Vents
1 Urza's Factory
Creatures
1 Draining Whelk
4 Bogardan Hellkite
Spells
3 Electrolyze
2 Tidings
4 Compulsive Research
2 Repeal
4 Izzet Signet
4 Mana Leak
2 Prismatic Lens
3 Wildfire
2 Demonfire
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Spell Burst
1 Govern the Guildless
3 Pyroclasm
1 Confiscate
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Annex
In retrospect, I should have ran -2 Spell Snare as they werent that useful in my match ups and +1 Electrolyze and +1 Repeal. Prismatic lens was much better than I thought it would be and helped out a lot more than just running two random simic signet.