Karn is an asymmetric null rod that can also unequip equipment and kill off mana crypts, mox diamonds, everflowing chalices, and all other kinds of common zero drop artifacts. That alone probably makes him a commander staple. Considering we also have an artifact subtheme for him to add value to, id say hes pretty much a shoe in.
Not sure I share your excitement about chandra. Seems ok but in practice i feel like light up the stage probably gives us more card advantage for less. Walkers that give card advantage usually dont last very long, everyone goes after them and 5 damage or so isnt going to deter them in a 40 life game.
I definitely like this guy a lot. He definitely seems like he should get a spot. Solid aggressive creature that also lets us loot any number of dead cards? Sign me up. Could even throw in aggravated assault for a two card combo as an extra wincon.
Well it will be anyway. I just updated it with ravnica allegiance so I need to get the cards to make the physical changes. Although I may wait a bit on purchasing Judith, the Scourge Diva since apparently speculation went rampant with her and jacked up her price.
I just now realized that creatures which already have riot will now etb with 2 riot triggers--they can get a +1/+1 counter *and* haste. Good thing I already have a set of Tocatli Honor Guard.
This card is seriously awesome. Definitely going in my dragons edh deck and others as well. The effect on persist is also very interesting, wonder how that shakes out in modern.
Didn't really consider that aspect. There's a ton of control changing in my meta already so this guy was just one more in that regard. I double sleeve all my decks already so I'm not really bothered handing them over. Once someone did even spill a drink on a few and the double sleeves fully protected it so I generally feel pretty confident with my level of protection there.
Although I realize it is a bit of an unfair comparison. I have zero interest in foiling out my decks, I go for the cheapest versions of cards almost every time. Once in a while I'll "splurge" with a promo copy if its only like $1 more and I like how the promo looks. Or if the oracle text has changed so much between the old and new version that playing with the old copy is borderline impractical at this point and its worth an extra $1 or $2 to save people from doing lots of gatherer lookups during the game. But that's a rare exception. Not to say I don't get nervous about some (there is no such thing as a cheap copy of an original dual land for instance lol). But still, its clearly different since most of my cards are cheap. I just want to play the game, I don't care how my deck looks.
I've actually been debating whether to just sub out all my expensive cards with proxies to further reduce this risk. My group is super cheap so we let anyone play with proxies freely as long as they take the effort to actually print out the card (so its nice and readable) and sleeve it up with their deck so it looks like any other card from the back. Hand-written post-it proxies stuck to a token or playing card with just the name aren't really acceptable. But as long as we can play normally without looking stuff up all the time as if you really did have the card we don't care.
I personally try to make sure I acquire at least one copy of every card in all my decks so if I ever went to a store event or something I could make one or two of my decks legal. But that still means there's really no reason to carry around the real copies most of the time when we're playing around food/drinks, in bars/restaurants, or just risk my backpack being stolen in transit.
Really like Curse of Opulence. Norin can start generating mana for us T3 with that, plus we'll get artifacts for welding and mana from everyone else as well.
"Sphinx tribal"? I'm curious what you're referring to here, I'm blanking on what other sphinx's matter to pandemonium. I would think playing pande against a sharuum deck is always hazardous since every sharuum deck runs sculpting steel and pande turns that into an instant combo win.
You are absolutely right, Sharuum is a terrible example. But the general idea was that sometimes you see a commander that isn't known for playing a big heavy creature suite like Dragonlord Ojutai, you think it's safe to play Pandemonium, and then they start slamming down dragons every turn. That's typically the cases where I've had Pandemonium backfire the most. Sometimes it's a easier to spot a game when Pandemonium will benefit you or not, and sometimes you get surprised. All in all, we can talk about Pandemonium all we want, but it's just a very situational card. Really the best thing to do if you're not used to playing with it is just play it and see how the game turns out (Not talking about you CentralCommand, obviously you've pushed the card to its limit if you died to a Blightsteel Colossus). Should we do a flow chart? I vote to still play it against Sharuum, just to see if it all tilts the game away from always trying to kill the Sharuum deck first.
Truth be told I was half-kidding about Blightsteel Colossus, I don't see him that often. But it did happen once. I think someone Bribery'ed, found the blightsteel while searching and said "well, that solves our norin/pande problem". It's not really a huge risk but he can be hidden away in any deck. As can our giant eldrazi "friends".
Of all the suggestions you made, I'll take Pandemonium into consideration again - it's backfires soooo many times...
Yeah, that card 'll do that to you. That card is good early game so it makes people rethink the entire game, and makes people waste removal to get rid of the card, or late game when stuff is at a standstill. It's also a little tricky in that you have to cross your fingers and hope that that Sharuum the Hegemon deck isn't playing a sphinx tribal deck for what ever weird reason. Honestly though, hats off if that's the game I find myself in.
"Sphinx tribal"? I'm curious what you're referring to here, I'm blanking on what other sphinx's matter to pandemonium. I would think playing pande against a sharuum deck is always hazardous since every sharuum deck runs sculpting steel and pande turns that into an instant combo win.
Personally I'd never cut pandemonium. Those effects are just too good with norin to cut. They absolutely backfire sometimes but everything is a gamble in this deck so it fits right in. As long as the number of times my opponent lays down a blightsteel colossus and targets me in response remain significantly less then the number of times norin dominates a board with it I'll keep it. But yea, it isn't a card you can just blindly lay down late game, you have to play it more carefully then that.
I love this deck idea. I got two cards into the deck list and instantly stepped back from the sheer cost of this thing. I am a new player and building this EHD deck would break my bank and my soul.
It is possible to make a cheaper version. There are a lot of pricey cards in the primer list that I don't run, and the rest are replaceable. Most of the key components for the combo-y stuff aren't expensive. While it's going to run slower and less powerfully than the primer list, I could easily run a version that's $150 or less.
I would love to have that deck list. I like the idea of this deck, but those mana gems alone are in the 400 dollar range. I am new to EDH and magic in general so I don't think I wanna jump quite off that deep end. Yet at the same time, all the people I play with seem to have incredibly stupidly powerful decks and my meager collection cant do a damn thing about.
It had really made the game overall harder to enjoy because I just don't have years of collecting under my belt. At the same time I like the game, I just don't wanna feel like these people can just stomp me whenever they want with these powerful decks. I don't know enough about the game to be able to build a deck, or know what my deck needs to make it work better.
I feel lost.
That sucks and I sympathise. I've built a version of this deck that is similar, and even in it's budget state it's not as cheap as you'd like. That having been said, a lot of the real workhorses in this deck are the cheap uncommons and commons that you dig through crates for.
This is sort of aside from the point of this thread, but my two cents are as follows: If you're playing with your mates, you're new to the game and they're not, they owe it to you to play decks that scale to your level accordingly. Given that you've commented on one of the longest threads on this site, it feels like you may have jumped in the deep end to some degree. But having said that, a simple reset could be what you need. If your collection is lacking (in your opinion) a REALLY good place to start is to pick up one of the commander precons that takes your fancy, and start building from there.
The beauty of this format is that you can build any way you like around any legendary creature. So find a creature that inspires you, and get crafting. Bear in mind also, that just because a card fits perfectly, does not mean it's the only choice. You can always compromise as your budget allows.
I literally just started playing. So my card library consists of about 50 packs spread through Kaladesh and Aether Revolt in total.
I think my best option is going to be trying to find a decently cheap deck and buy a few cards at a time until I have a deck. *shrug*. I guess that's the new player woes.
In my opinion, the most expensive part of EDH is the staples. The landbase, the mana rocks/acceleration pieces, the tutors, the draw/filter effects, the disruption, etc. The cards you actually want to play for any particular deck that build around your commander ironically are usually the cheapest parts.
It's all the stuff around those that makes the deck operate like a well-oiled machine that drives up costs.
However its a curve, just about all those staples have cheaper less effective alternatives. But subbing them out affects some decks a lot more then others. This deck for instance is a rough one to cut back on. There is absolutely a plethora of cheap mana rocks. But when kozilek is your commander your playgroup is definitely on edge, they know how devastating he can be. So if all the cutbacks you make in the mana deparatment make it hard to play him before turn 7 or 8 then the deck as a whole becomes a lot less effective. You'll need to add all sorts of early game protection plays because if your first creature is usually landing that late you are going to be in big trouble by the time he comes down. Well at least in a strong playgroup, could be fine in a very casual environment.
Not all decks are like that though. My first EDH deck once I got into this world was actually Norin the Wary. I didn't know it at the time but I'd actually whole-heartedly recommend it as a good starter for these reasons:
It's mono-red. Most of the expensive staples are not red
The deck is pretty cheap for the most part and most of the expensive pieces can absolutely be cut back. Scaling back the mana rocks in that deck for instance is completely fine since everything is so cheap. Norin's best rocks are ironically Honor-Worn Shaku and Springleaf Drum which are dirt cheap.
You can absolutely scale it and acquire pieces to improve it over time.
It's a blast to play. It's actually not a chaos deck despite having some chaos pieces, its all synergy and strategy. It's very hard to predict because it can win in so many different ways. It actually holds its own really well against moderately competitive decks. It's not a tournament optimized deck by any means but my group is group is casual-competitive and it holds its own very well.
By casual competitive I mean no holds barred matches with very strong decks but not fully tuned. We still like to build around commanders not just like BUG goodstuff combo.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider: Not for me: I dislike that she needs to attack; people tend to. As a token producer I like Mog War Marshal better for the same mana cost. Which is a shame, because I would very much like to play with a Legendary Monkey Pirate.
Pia's Revolution: Strong, but I think it's a bit of a win more-card. I like my nontoken artifacts in play, so I can copy them.
Release the Gremlins: Very happy with this one. Looking forward to exiling lots of my own myr tokens.
Cogwork Assembler: Nice, but in order to do more than this it's activated ability should've cost 2 less.
Daredevil Dragster: Not good enough for me. It'll probably take you three turns before you can draw 2 for 3. That's not fast enough.
Gonti's Aether Heart: Might be the best card in the set for us. Unfortunately, I hate extra turns, so I'm not going to run it.
Paradox Engine: It'll probably better then you think at first. I tend to generate a lot of artifact mana and run quite wheel effects. Floating your mana, playing a wheel of fortune (or another wheel) and simultaneously untapping all your mana rocks is very powerful. I can see this one change games for us, but mostly in quite a cheesy way. I don't know if I want to go that way.
Scrap Trawler: Love this guy, it adds value too a lot of cards. I suppose it's most valuable when you play lots of 0-mana artifacts since myr tokens die a lot. Imagine returning your looted artifact lands with this guy by sacrificing a myr. Nice! Could mean the return of Tormod's Crypt too, and I like that it adds value to my Memory Jar too. Has synergy with Goblin Welder, with Daretti, Scrap Savant... The more I think about it, the better it gets. (Man. This is nuts with Feldon of the third Path.)
Treasure Keeper: Feels too random. There's hardly any top deck manipulation in most Norin lists.
Indomitable Creativity - Already in. Seems pretty fantastic. I cut Aftershock because I don't have a problem using it on particular dangerous enemy creatures. We'll see though.
Metallic Mimic - He's in. We make a lot of tokens, sometimes goblins, sometimes myr, sometimes even thopter. We also run Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge. He's a 2-drop artifact creature that can customize himself to boost any of these primary strategies based on what else I've drawn. Seems amazing, I'm definitely trying him out. I cut Manic Vandal since he's just bonus artifact hate.
Scrap Trawler - I really like this guy. But is he just bonus synergy with Goblin Welder and Daretti, Scrap Savant or are we convinced he can always provide solid standalone value? He seems worth testing but I'm not sold yet.
Release the Gremlins - So I get that this card looks good. Destroy artifacts, make tokens, win-win. But I mean it isn't a creature and it costs 5 to take out 2 artifacts and make 2 2/2s. At 5 mana Shattering Spree destroys 5 artifacts, Vandalblast is a one-sided artifact wipe, Siege-Gang Commander throws down 4 creatures and 5 power, Mogg Infestation turns a whole board into a pile of 1/1s, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, this feels like both a very inefficient token generator and a very inefficient artifact killer. Yes those two are better together but is that good enough? Idk I'm not sold.
The no's
Gonti's Aether Heart - I have absolutely no problem with extra turns. But I don't actually think this card is good. We have no other ways to use E at this moment. So what does it really do? For 6 I get an artifact that does absolutely nothing unless I manage to also bring 3 other artifacts into play without someone destroying it first. And if I manage to pull all that off I get what? A single extra turn. No possibility for abuse either, it exiles itself as part of its cost. If we have some other way to use E then I could see potentially playing this. It could easily make a huge amount of E in a very short time and once you hit 8 you can use its ability in response to any removal. But otherwise I don't think this card is even close to powerful enough to justify its CMC and ability cost.
Treasure Keeper - Nifty but not for this deck. Basically just bonus welder/daretti synergy. Plus no idea what we'll hit and we're adding more X spells, doesn't seem good for us.
Universal Solvent - Yea this is clearly just an improvise/affinity friendly version of Unstable Obelisk. I don't think we have enough pure artifact synergy to justify this.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, Pia's Revolution, Cogwork Assembler, Daredevil Dragster - Honestly all these guys seem bad in commander in general, definitely no. Well multiplayer anyway, which is my primary concern, Pia's is could definitely work in the right 1v1 deck. Kari Zev is a mega-bummer too, monkey pirates are awesome.
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Karn is an asymmetric null rod that can also unequip equipment and kill off mana crypts, mox diamonds, everflowing chalices, and all other kinds of common zero drop artifacts. That alone probably makes him a commander staple. Considering we also have an artifact subtheme for him to add value to, id say hes pretty much a shoe in.
Not sure I share your excitement about chandra. Seems ok but in practice i feel like light up the stage probably gives us more card advantage for less. Walkers that give card advantage usually dont last very long, everyone goes after them and 5 damage or so isnt going to deter them in a 40 life game.
I definitely like this guy a lot. He definitely seems like he should get a spot. Solid aggressive creature that also lets us loot any number of dead cards? Sign me up. Could even throw in aggravated assault for a two card combo as an extra wincon.
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Well it will be anyway. I just updated it with ravnica allegiance so I need to get the cards to make the physical changes. Although I may wait a bit on purchasing Judith, the Scourge Diva since apparently speculation went rampant with her and jacked up her price.
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Tocatli honor guard has no effect on riot. Its not an etb trigger, you make the choice as the creature enters the battlefield. Theres no ability that goes on the stack so honor guard doesnt stop it. See the riot part here https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ravnica-allegiance-mechanics-2018-12-17
This card is seriously awesome. Definitely going in my dragons edh deck and others as well. The effect on persist is also very interesting, wonder how that shakes out in modern.
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Although I realize it is a bit of an unfair comparison. I have zero interest in foiling out my decks, I go for the cheapest versions of cards almost every time. Once in a while I'll "splurge" with a promo copy if its only like $1 more and I like how the promo looks. Or if the oracle text has changed so much between the old and new version that playing with the old copy is borderline impractical at this point and its worth an extra $1 or $2 to save people from doing lots of gatherer lookups during the game. But that's a rare exception. Not to say I don't get nervous about some (there is no such thing as a cheap copy of an original dual land for instance lol). But still, its clearly different since most of my cards are cheap. I just want to play the game, I don't care how my deck looks.
I've actually been debating whether to just sub out all my expensive cards with proxies to further reduce this risk. My group is super cheap so we let anyone play with proxies freely as long as they take the effort to actually print out the card (so its nice and readable) and sleeve it up with their deck so it looks like any other card from the back. Hand-written post-it proxies stuck to a token or playing card with just the name aren't really acceptable. But as long as we can play normally without looking stuff up all the time as if you really did have the card we don't care.
I personally try to make sure I acquire at least one copy of every card in all my decks so if I ever went to a store event or something I could make one or two of my decks legal. But that still means there's really no reason to carry around the real copies most of the time when we're playing around food/drinks, in bars/restaurants, or just risk my backpack being stolen in transit.
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Truth be told I was half-kidding about Blightsteel Colossus, I don't see him that often. But it did happen once. I think someone Bribery'ed, found the blightsteel while searching and said "well, that solves our norin/pande problem". It's not really a huge risk but he can be hidden away in any deck. As can our giant eldrazi "friends".
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"Sphinx tribal"? I'm curious what you're referring to here, I'm blanking on what other sphinx's matter to pandemonium. I would think playing pande against a sharuum deck is always hazardous since every sharuum deck runs sculpting steel and pande turns that into an instant combo win.
Personally I'd never cut pandemonium. Those effects are just too good with norin to cut. They absolutely backfire sometimes but everything is a gamble in this deck so it fits right in. As long as the number of times my opponent lays down a blightsteel colossus and targets me in response remain significantly less then the number of times norin dominates a board with it I'll keep it. But yea, it isn't a card you can just blindly lay down late game, you have to play it more carefully then that.
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In my opinion, the most expensive part of EDH is the staples. The landbase, the mana rocks/acceleration pieces, the tutors, the draw/filter effects, the disruption, etc. The cards you actually want to play for any particular deck that build around your commander ironically are usually the cheapest parts.
It's all the stuff around those that makes the deck operate like a well-oiled machine that drives up costs.
However its a curve, just about all those staples have cheaper less effective alternatives. But subbing them out affects some decks a lot more then others. This deck for instance is a rough one to cut back on. There is absolutely a plethora of cheap mana rocks. But when kozilek is your commander your playgroup is definitely on edge, they know how devastating he can be. So if all the cutbacks you make in the mana deparatment make it hard to play him before turn 7 or 8 then the deck as a whole becomes a lot less effective. You'll need to add all sorts of early game protection plays because if your first creature is usually landing that late you are going to be in big trouble by the time he comes down. Well at least in a strong playgroup, could be fine in a very casual environment.
Not all decks are like that though. My first EDH deck once I got into this world was actually Norin the Wary. I didn't know it at the time but I'd actually whole-heartedly recommend it as a good starter for these reasons:
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My two cents:
The very yes's
- Indomitable Creativity - Already in. Seems pretty fantastic. I cut Aftershock because I don't have a problem using it on particular dangerous enemy creatures. We'll see though.
- Metallic Mimic - He's in. We make a lot of tokens, sometimes goblins, sometimes myr, sometimes even thopter. We also run Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge. He's a 2-drop artifact creature that can customize himself to boost any of these primary strategies based on what else I've drawn. Seems amazing, I'm definitely trying him out. I cut Manic Vandal since he's just bonus artifact hate.
- Inspiring Statuary - Definitely in. At absolute worst a bad 3 rock, often a Worn Powerstone or better. I cut Coldsteel Heart (probably shouldn't have been in there to begin with).
The maybe's- Scrap Trawler - I really like this guy. But is he just bonus synergy with Goblin Welder and Daretti, Scrap Savant or are we convinced he can always provide solid standalone value? He seems worth testing but I'm not sold yet.
- Release the Gremlins - So I get that this card looks good. Destroy artifacts, make tokens, win-win. But I mean it isn't a creature and it costs 5 to take out 2 artifacts and make 2 2/2s. At 5 mana Shattering Spree destroys 5 artifacts, Vandalblast is a one-sided artifact wipe, Siege-Gang Commander throws down 4 creatures and 5 power, Mogg Infestation turns a whole board into a pile of 1/1s, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, this feels like both a very inefficient token generator and a very inefficient artifact killer. Yes those two are better together but is that good enough? Idk I'm not sold.
The no's