I like it a lot. The list looks pretty clean. My only thought is that I would perhaps replace some of the more expensive cyclers for cheaper CMC creatures that enjoy dying. Caustic Caterpillar and Spore Frog immediately come to mind as does Thrashing Brontodon.
Have you considered Savra, Queen of the Golgari and Meren of Clan Nel Toth? Savra has some pretty excellent synergies seeing that Izon's squishy tokens are both Black and Green. This can help create additional board control while also counting as a creature for Izoni synergies.
This... is awesome. I can't believe I didn't even think about staggering the Snatcher's triggers like you've outlined. I'll be needing to update the Card Choices section post-haste as well as the strategy section as well. Good look, comrade.
With the advent of MTG Arena: Beta, I've rediscovered how enjoyable 60 card formats can be. The last time I remember playing Standard was during the Zendikar block and the last deck I remember loving was 4 Color Cruel Control. Dear Lord, how I miss devastating an opponent with a 5-1 from Cruel Ultimatum...
And it turns out that the results from the most recent SCG Modern event are in. In 3rd and 4th place, respectively, were Azorius Control decks. The addition of W to a normal Grixis mana base offers up a whole new range of interactions. I admit that the list I've been goldfishing comes from a total noob perspective, and I haven't played any Modern ever. But it seems like a good 4 CCC list could be extremely effective right now. One of the trends that leads me to say this is in evaluating the 3rd and 4th place Azorius Control lists. They don't have a ton of interaction on T1, which means that the Control elements in the deck are good enough to help the deck survive into the late game.
So, the list I think I'd like to suggest/have criticized is the following. I've been able to successfully have any colors I need on time with the goldfishing, which has been quite pleasing since this is my first Modern deck idea ever.
Cast Down - of the creatures that I've seen being relevantly played, this card only misses Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (we're probably losing this game if this card gets cast anyways), and Geist of Saint Traft (which can't even be targeted in the first place). Those are the only legendary creatures that I see. Why isn't this card being played more? Terminate seems like a strictly worse choice because it forces you to play R on T2. I'm legitimately curious about this.
Detention Sphere - this card seems extremely well positioned with the rise of Arclight Phoenix. It might be better to add more copies to the deck because it can hit multiple copies of it on the critical turn and keep us alive and answers the problem forever. It can also hit opposing planeswalkers or any other problem permanent, making it a decent catch-all answer. I don't think there are any token decks that are good, currently, but it can hose those decks too. Enchantment hate is also really scarce, it seems, so it's likely that this card will be a safe tap-out when needed.
Esper Charm - probably the main reason to add W in the first place. Being able to Mind Rot combo players and Tron players seems really good, especially in combination with Nicol Bolas, the Ravager. It answers opposing Search for Azcanta and is an instant speed Divination when we need to reload. Another great Snapcaster target as well, methinks.
Anyways, it goldfishes really well, which doesn't particularly mean anything, and it draws relevant answers frequently and often. Every card feels useful, but, most importantly, I can successfully cast Cruel Ultimatum again and relive the glory days!
The list of reprints that are relevant to the Sultai wedge is absolutely ridiculous. I'll simply touch on the ones that I feel are the most relevant for Tasigur and the different strategies he can employ.
Ultimate Master Review
Tasigur, the Golden Fang - he got reprinted with some new art! I actually prefer the old art, but perhaps seeing the new art in person will change my mind.
Demonic Tutor - awesome reprint with some hella cool art.
Snapcaster Mage - I think they've reprinted this in every Masters set so far. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But this is possibly one of the best 5 creatures in all of MTG history and deserves its reprint.
Bitterblossom for those that are dedicated to the Hard/True Control variations of Tasigur, this card can be a Forcefield or a Win Condition depending on how the long the game goes. The new art is pretty cool as well.
Temporal Manipulation - a hella cool reprint that can be a win condition if you have a way to not deck yourself once you've achieved infinite mana. Volrath's Stronghold comes to mind.
Entomb - this card was very much needing a reprint and the new art is pretty evocative. I like it.
Reanimate - for those Tasigur pilots who want to focus on a Reanimator strategy, this is a great reprint with some hella cool art.
Glen Elendra Archmage - a card that was desperately needing a reprint, this little Wizard is awesome at protecting our plays. While it's expensive on the CMC side, it's very good at what it needs to do.
Woodfall Primus - a great Flash target, this card also forms a mini-Combo with Mikaeus and Carrion Feeder to clear the opponents of pretty much every relevant card.
Pattern of Rebirth - another awesome art reprint, this card is very strong in a Tasigur shell since there are plenty of sac effects in the B.
Maelstrom Pulse - cleans up any token strategy like a boss while hitting multiple permanent types. A great card for the deck.
Phyrexian Tower - the art is sooooo cool on this card. It's another reprint that needed to happen, so congrats Wizards for making a smart choice.
Balefire Dragon - noice reprint for Kaalia decks everywhere, this is possibly the strongest Dragon ever printed. It's prettu much an auto-include in any Kaalia deck as far as I'm concerned.
Demonic Tutor - a card that desperately needed a reprint, the new art is super awesome. I'm picking one up for this deck for sure.
Entomb - a great reprint for the Reanimator version of this deck.
REanimate - cool art and a desperately needed reprint as well. Wizards has really knocked this Masters set out of the park in my opinion.
Goryo's Vengeance - dude, the art is so f-ing cool. And Kaalia lists generally tend to have a decent number of legendary creatures, so this card could be good in your version.
Cavern of Souls]/CARD] - another great reprint, this card is awesome at keeping Kaalia relevant in any cEDH game you play. Laugh at the dead Counterspells your opponents are playing!
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - wow, the art for this card is SO cool. Pick one up if you can.
Glen Elendra Archmage - a very desperately needed reprint, this Wizard is fantastic in Commander. She counters two spells for the low price of U and can occasionally block fliers. Get yours today! It has great Wizard synergies too.
Temporal Manipulation - wow, I never thought that they would reprint this except as a Judge Foil. Strictly better than Time Warp since it doesn't target players explicitly and can therefore NOT be redirected. If you wanted to focus on extra turns for your Memnarch deck, this is a great pickup.
Back to Basics - probably the most relevant reprint for cEDH decks, this card is fantastic. Get one if you can while the prices are low.
Snapcaster Mage - yup, still one of the best creatures in all of MTG. Makes sense it got reprinted.
Dig Through Time - a very effective Draw spell for Commander. The price for this card is probably bottomed out now, so pick up a few copies of this card. It's a super effective draw spell in the mid-late game.
Mana Vault - probably the other super important reprint for this deck, the new Art is totally worth it. My brother and I are pooling our monies together and this and Back to Basics are the cards I most want to see.
All is Dust - another awesome reprint, this card hits multiple different permanent types while minimally affecting ours. A decent Wrath option if you're looking for one.
Karn Liberated - the OG Metal-Man in MTG. Not terribly effective in Commander, but still a decent effect.
Just a brief update on Ultimate Masters. First, there's a ton of cool art in the new set. I'm inclined to buy some of the cards simply because of the art upgrade. But, a quick set review for Ultimate Masters for Memnarch. And the sheer number of relevant reprints is awesome.
Ultimate Masters Review
Glen Elendra Archmage - a very desperately needed reprint, this Wizard is fantastic in Commander. She counters two spells for the low price of U and can occasionally block fliers. Get yours today! It has great Wizard synergies too.
Temporal Manipulation - wow, I never thought that they would reprint this except as a Judge Foil. Strictly better than Time Warp since it doesn't target players explicitly and can therefore NOT be redirected. If you wanted to focus on extra turns for your Memnarch deck, this is a great pickup.
Back to Basics - probably the most relevant reprint for cEDH decks, this card is fantastic. Get one if you can while the prices are low.
Snapcaster Mage - yup, still one of the best creatures in all of MTG. Makes sense it got reprinted.
Dig Through Time - a very effective Draw spell for Commander. The price for this card is probably bottomed out now, so pick up a few copies of this card. It's a super effective draw spell in the mid-late game.
Mana Vault - probably the other super important reprint for this deck, the new Art is totally worth it. My brother and I are pooling our monies together and this and Back to Basics are the cards I most want to see.
All is Dust - another awesome reprint, this card hits multiple different permanent types while minimally affecting ours. A decent Wrath option if you're looking for one.
Karn Liberated - the OG Metal-Man in MTG. Not terribly effective in Commander, but still a decent effect.
Thanks for the compliments, sir! I appreciate the thoughtful responses as it's forced me to elucidate some of the card choices more concretely.
Yup, I've noticed that in the cEDH servers that there has been a trend towards shifting away from glass-cannon decks. If you're a combo deck, you need to have some sort of built-in resiliency or add more control elements in order to keep ahead of the other glass-cannon combo decks. Tasigur's strategy, and this decklist generally, has been created in such a way as to keep pace with this trend. That's why the card choices are what they are, for the most part. And Tasigur does play the long game very well, the main reason I chose him over other Sultai options.
I'll politely agree to disagree with your evaluation of the ETB creatures that are in the deck. Having the ability to perform the effects listed at instant speed is quite relevant if I'm the game-state or my board development warrants it.
I really like the idea of Woodfall Primus. I'll have to consider it in place of Hostage Taker. I think the Taker deserves some additional testing before I entirely dismiss her. There's been some awesome situations where she exiles a key creature or mana rock and gives it to me or acts as a 4 CMC Commander removal spell. I'm not totally sold on her yet, because I've had more situations where she's a 4 CMC Commander removal spell or where an opponent gets the chance to get their permanent back from underneath the Taker. Get Wreckt Leviathan has been very up and down for me in the past. Sometimes it's great, and saves the day and keeps it at equilibirum, and other times it's an emergency panic button that resets my field just as hard as anyone else's. The decklist as is is very land lite, and the Leviathan punishes decks that are land lite and mana rock/dork heavy. I think there's a litte too much anti-synergy with the Leviathan for my liking and it's tested poorly in the past. Bane of Progress is pretty awesome and dominates if it resolves. I hadn't fully considered the Bane in this deck, but it might be worthwhile to take a look at it critically.
As mentioned previously, the Reanimation effects are not a focus of the deck. The Reanimation effects that are there are to give the deck resiliency and consistency. Frantic Search has also been another card that's been very hit or miss in testing. And it's certainly not my favorite card to get back with Tasigur should that happen. I've been pretty content with the discard effects that I have in the deck, as Survival is VERY frequently a card I tutor for within the first stages of the game so it's generally always available to me. And if it isn't because it's removed, there are enough additional tutor effects that can replicate what the Survival does. Additionally, having Combo pieces stranded in hand doesn't really occur that frequently.
For the meta I'm playing in, and for a cEDH meta generally, Carpet of Flowers is superior to Exploration. There will come a time in the game where I'm no longer concerned about hitting land drops consistently and the Exploration becomes an empty piece of cardboard. The Carpet is always live, as there is always a minimum of 2 Islands in play at any given time. Life from the Loam has been sufficient in recurring lands from the 'yard and I've found no need for Walking Crucuible or Crucible itself. I did have a version of Tasigur where I played the Crucible and it was mostly a mediocre card when I was playing it. It was nice when the version of Tasigur I was playing was a streamlined Control list, but this deck is not a truly streamlined Control list. There are a lot of Control elements that help to supplement the Combo lines and/or buy time to execute them.
Great ideas and comments, sir. The deck may seem good-stuffy to you but it's performed admirably for me and each card has been carefully thought about and/or tested. The Core synergies that the deck is built around are Mikaeus, Cradle, Survival, Razaketh, and Skullclamp. Many, if not all of the cards in the deck and the decklist itself, have been maximized to push these particular synergy pieces. It's why the deck is so mana dork heavy when that's often a liability for cEDH games.
Great discussion! You're certainly helping to stretch my brain and thinking and articulate the explicit reasons I'm running the Flash Hulk package more clearly.
I'll address your points in turn.
1) Milling key combo pieces is a fair point. What would I do if I were to mill Hulk via Tasigur's ability? There are at least 6 elements of Reanimation in the deck and 10 tutors that can go and find these cards. The 6 Reanimation/Recursion effects are: Muldrotha, Volrath's Stronghold, Animate Dead, Life // Death, Body Snatcher, and Phyrexian Delver. 3 of these cards are creature cards, meaning that I can go and find them via Survival of the Fittest or Eldritch Evolution in order to get that Hulk combo piece into play. Additionally, Snapcaster Mage can recycle one of the hard tutors (i.e. Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor or Diabolic Intent) to find these pieces in addition to the 10 tutor effects in the deck. I'm not too worried about the recursion elements of the deck because there are so many redundant tutors and ways to duplicate the Reanimation effect I'd need in order to execute the Flash Hulk line.
I will also say that, if I'm in the position where I'm playing the long game with Tasigur and I'm actively using his ability and the milling of a Flash Hulk piece has occurred, then the game state has probably degenerated into an equilibrium of sorts that Tasigur can totally take advantage of with his ability. Indeed, this is one of the primary reasons that I chose Tasigur to be the Commander in the first place, as the Primer indicates. If I'm in this particular game state, then it's simply a matter of time before I draw enough Permission and Control pieces to force through one of the Combos I need.
Finally, the Reanimation effects are not the sole focus of the deck and are included because they are meant to be a back up to the Combos and give the deck flexibility and consistency. I'll happily spend an Animate Dead to get back a Protean Hulk to play so that any Wrath effect automatically becomes a losing proposition for my opponent. And should they exile the Hulk, no worries either. I'm still running the Dramatic Scepter Combo.
Perhaps the synergies with the Flash Hulk package aren't explicit enough to you and other readers. I'll try and clarify the synergies that I see for each of the Combo cards and try to demonstrate that the Flash Hulk package is not totally dead in this deck.
Flash - besides being the primary way to kill the Hulk, this card is a cheap way to get an ETB creature into play outside of normal Sorcery speed timing. The creatures that have ETB effects in this deck that can profitably take advantage of Flash are Phyrexian Delver, Body Snatcher, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Spellseeker, and Wood Elves. Additionally, it also acts as an instant speed discard outlet to get some of the juicier targets into the 'yard for a Reanimation effect. I'll happily spend 1U to get Muldrotha into the 'yard so I can Life // Death it to play on my turn and recur some more cards. Flash helps to shortcut the amount of mana that I would need to spend in order to get these more expensive creatures into play with the Reanimation utility that the deck has. I wouldn't underestimate the utility that Flash has in this deck at all.
Carrion Feeder - it's a nice 1 drop that can scale as I feed it creatures. The synergy with Mikaeus is fairly obvious, but the Feeder is also the primary way that I take advantage of Skullclamp. The Feeder makes the Clamp a legitimate source of card advantage to the deck, enabling me to sacrifice creatures at will that don't have 1 toughness so that I can draw cards off of 'Clamp. Additionally, the Feeder acts as another way to get a spent creature into the 'yard in order to Reanimate it. An instant speed sac outlet is also a great way to protect my creatures from exile effects so that my creatures are constantly available to me over the course of a game. And, at times, it can be a legitimate threat on the ground, occasionally being a 5/5 or larger that can put pressure on more reactive Combo Control decks, particularly Ad Nauseam variants. It is tutorable via Survival of the Fittest, counts as a creature for Gaea's Cradle, can kill itself and other creatures for Skullclamp, and has obvious synergy with Mikaeus.
Phyrexian Delver - having an ETB creature that can Reanimate creatures is really good. Being a creature itself is even better since it's tutorable via Survival, counts as a creature for Cradle, carries a Skullclamp like a boss, is an excellent target for Eldritch Evolution, and is a nice Reanimation target if it's in the 'yard so that I can quickly build a board presence. I've intentionally tried to diversify the Reanimation effects across different card types in order to keep Muldrotha live at the mid and late game stage regardless of what I have in my 'yard, and the Delver is an important Reanimation effect for this deck. Besides being a combo piece for the Flash Hulk package itself.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - there is a reason this card is $20+. It certainly doesn't see any Constructed play, which means that the value of this card is almost strictly determined by the Commander market. And Mikaeus is just GOOD. Giving the majority of our board Undying makes Wrath effects a liability for my opponents. The utility of killing Human creatures for free has some minor applications (Kaalia is the one that comes to mind). But otherwise, Mikaeus makes our creatures a whole lot better. He makes Skullclamp a great source of card advantage and helps to get additional utility out of the ETB creatures that are in the deck. He's a creature himself, so he is tutorable via Survival, counts as a creature for Cradle, can himself carry Skullclamp like a boss, is a fine target and sac creature for Eldritch Evolution. Mikeaus is just a good card in any creature based deck, and this version of Tasigur is built to maximize synergies with The Unhallowed.
Protean Hulk - the main piece of the Flash Hulk combo. Not much needs to be said about that. While Flash is definitely the most obvious way to kill the Combo Pig, getting it into play with Phyrexian Tower or with a sac effect in play OR in hand means that you can win after getting it into play. And even if you choose not to assemble the Unhallowed Ballista combo, the Hulk still provides a ton of value if you just use his dying trigger fairly. I'll be pleased, if I'm playing against lesser tier decks, to get Spellseeker, Carrion Feeder, and Phantasmal Image off of the Hulk dying. Or maybe I just need to replace the Hulk with Muldrotha in order to grind hard. Or maybe I have Tasigur in play and I need Seedborn Muse to start accruing late game card advantage because Mikaeus has been somehow exiled. All of these options are fantastic and I'd happily play the Pig in a Black based deck simply because of how good it is at generating an effective and powerful board presence.
Walking Ballista - well, I hope by now that you understand that the Ballista has primary synergies with the deck. Check for Survival, Check for Skullclamp, and Check for Cradle. But the Ballista is also massively powerful with Seedborn Muse in play. I once had the Ballista as a 15/15 by the time it came back to my turn. I could kill any creature I wanted at instant speed and I could also severely damage any player's life total at instant speed. Nevermind being a 15/15. The Ballista is one of the best creatures to have been printed in recent memory. It even sees play in Legacy Tron/Eldrazi decks. If that doesn't speak to the power of this creature, I'm not sure anything else will.
2) This is probably the most significant point you've brought up. Body Snatcher is included in the deck as a clean solution to this problem, since it forces you to discard a creature card in order to keep it in play. This is the primary reason that the Snatcher is in the deck, in all honesty. It's a fairly mediocre Reanimation effect otherwise, but the discard clause makes it so that we can smoothly execute the Flash Hulk combo regardless of which Zone the pieces are in (with the exception of the exile zone, of course). I'm not sure if you've actually read the Primer, but I outline the exact situation that you describe here during the Flash Hulk combo explanation. I encourage you to read it if you haven't done so already.
I've found that the current iteration of the deck has a great balance between the two main combos. I run plenty of mana effects to jam a fast Combo line if it's available and I already run a significant number of tutors to the deck. The only tutors that could be added that would focus the deck more on the Flash Hulk plan is Worldly Tutor and Summoner's Pact. The deck could easily support the Worldly Tutor and the Pact is just too narrow for a 3 color deck anyways. The only other fast mana pieces that could conceivably be added to the deck are Chrome Mox and Mana Vault. I find that the current mana ramp package to be sufficient and very effective for my playstyle, so I feel no need to tool the deck to focus on the Flash Hulk combo any more than I already do.
I wonder - why Flash-Hulk? Sure it enables fastest win in a format but your deck does not focus on that so assembling it may be a problem. Tasigur has build-in condition "win with infinite mana" but instead of appropriate engines (except for Dramatic-Scepter) you run 5 cards which have zero synergy with your Commander and the rest of the deck. Wouldn't Palinchron-Navigator/Image/mana doubler serve you better?
Thanks for chiming in, Artaud. Flash Hulk has a great deal of synergy with the deck I believe. And in comparison to the ridiculous mana cost of any Palinchron combo, I find that Flash Hulk package to be much more compact and effective. Let's take a critical look at the two combos.
For a Palinchron combo, I'm going to assume that it would be run alongside Phantasmal Image since that's clearly the most mana efficient way to win. This combo requires, at the minimum, 7 actual lands in order to be effective. On top of that, both halves of the combo are sorcery speed, requiring me to tap out on my turn most likely in order to combo. Additionally, Palinchron has a trigger that is more easily responded to in comparison to the Hulk. The Image I'm already playing in the deck, so this change would only require me to add Palinchron to the deck. By cutting the Flash Hulk package, I would be able to free up additional slots in the deck and possibly add in Deadeye Navigator.
So let's look at Deadeye. By itself, he isn't good at all, needing in fact another creature in order to be truly effective. Otherwise, it's just a vanilla 5/5 for 6, which isn't even that good of a rate anymore. But, it does shortcut the land requirement somewhat because you only need 3 lands in order to go infinite. But again, this is another sorcery speed play that requires a certain number of lands in order to win.
The main reason that the Flash Hulk package is in this deck is BECAUSE it wins the game on an entirely different axis than what most Tasigur decks do at a lower CMC and at instant speed. You're right, Tasigur naturally rewards infinite colored mana generation. But the Flash Hulk package is, in my opinion, better.
I'm glad you understand my thinking regarding Defense Grid. It's occasionally backfired against my wife when she used to run it, protecting someone else's combo turn for free. Not a good feeling.
Yup, you're right. I was trying to reference Conqueror's Flail, not the Inquisitor one. I like the Flail because it makes any future creature that we cast have the ability to be another Abolisher effect. So not only will our opponents have to remove the creature that the Flail is attached to (all of which are usually high impact or Stax in some nature) but they'll ALSO have to deal with the Flail itself or risk being shut out of our turn and probably die.
One thing to consider with Kaalia as you're evaluating card choices like Meltdown is that we really only need 4-6 mana at any given time in order to play our game effectively (usually). Sacrificing a Rock to the Meltdown can hurt to watch, but the ability to trade our 2 cards in for 4+ cards of our opponents is a sweet deal. Not only did we deprive them of mana sources BUT we also gained tempo. You simply need to choose the window that you fire off a symmetrical Wrath effect in an opportune way.
Subterranean Tremors is a pretty awesome scalable Wrath effect. I like that it hits Artifacts after you've spent a certain amount of mana. The only reason I or my wife don't play it is because there is a Brago deck that we consistently play against and killing/Staxing out that Brago opponent is paramount to staying relevant in the game. The Tremors don't hit Brago. The end. If you find that it will hit most of the creatures that you play against, than I highly recommend it because of how well it scales over the course of the game. It's kinda like Cyclonic Rift in that regard.
I totally understand the pride issue about Boil. It's a pretty devious and evil card for any U/x mage to play against. It mostly comes down to what your expectations are with your opponents and yourself. The root of all frustration is unmet expectations. So, is your playgroup ok with MLD? If they are, then there is no reason to run the best type of MLD available to us in our colors. And Boil is one of the best MLD effects against any Blue based deck.
In regards to the fast mana rocks, this is mostly a deck space constraint in all fairness. I want to run more, but the deck space is tight and I find that I only really need between 4-6 mana sources on a consistent basis. Landing an early Stax piece is really good for the deck, and I've often thought about cards to cut in order to add additional fast mana rocks. Of the two you mention, Mana Vault is basically a colorless Dark Ritual in this deck and there aren't really any cards we can afford to Imprint to the Mox.
I meant more lie audience size. How many viewers, streamers, etc. do your channels get?
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet has proven to be exceptionally strong. I built a deck dedicated to it from my Nicol Bolas deck, but I think I need to rebuild Nicol Bolas. He's my favorite character in MTG and I have a playmat of him and everything. It feels wrong to have an EDH deck without my favorite card as the Commander.
Since it sounds like you're fairly committed to switching over to the Mid-Range build, will you be increasing your land count or no? I think the interaction pieces are all well and good, so I have no issue there, but if you're going more mid range it might not be a bad idea to include some additional mana sources. Kydele will take care of your colorless mana requirements for hard casting your threats, which leaves you gated by the number of colored mana symbols you have available. More lands or more mana rocks/dorks might be in order so that you can consistently take advantage of the mana generation that Kydele can output for you, especially with the addition of Wheels and Waste Not.
Oh, if you do add Waste Not you should probably still keep Razaketh in the deck. I think it's good to have at least one big fattie in B so that you can take advantage of the mana output that Waste Not can generate. And Razaketh is clearly the best legal option in Commander for B.
I think this is a genius idea! I personally appreciate articles about particular deck strategies in the eternal formats, and making competitive budget decks is a great idea to introduce the eternal formats to newer players. This is a great deck, and of course improvements could be made to enhance it.
Is Phyrexian Vatmother really that necessary? She seems top heavy and there seem to be enough infect creatures to usually draw one or two. WOuld an additional protection spell or disruption spell be better suited in that slot instead? I think Infect can be a viable deck again if it incorporated the disruption that you show here. I think Death's Shadow is currently one of the top decks because of the sheer amount of discard the deck packs main board.
I'm personally a huge fan of spot removal in Commander, especially ones that synergize with what your Commander is trying to do.
Have you considered Savra, Queen of the Golgari and Meren of Clan Nel Toth? Savra has some pretty excellent synergies seeing that Izon's squishy tokens are both Black and Green. This can help create additional board control while also counting as a creature for Izoni synergies.
And it turns out that the results from the most recent SCG Modern event are in. In 3rd and 4th place, respectively, were Azorius Control decks. The addition of W to a normal Grixis mana base offers up a whole new range of interactions. I admit that the list I've been goldfishing comes from a total noob perspective, and I haven't played any Modern ever. But it seems like a good 4 CCC list could be extremely effective right now. One of the trends that leads me to say this is in evaluating the 3rd and 4th place Azorius Control lists. They don't have a ton of interaction on T1, which means that the Control elements in the deck are good enough to help the deck survive into the late game.
So, the list I think I'd like to suggest/have criticized is the following. I've been able to successfully have any colors I need on time with the goldfishing, which has been quite pleasing since this is my first Modern deck idea ever.
3x Reflecting Pool
3x Vivid Creek
2x Vivid Meadow
2x Vivid Marsh
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
3x Watery Grave
2x Steam Vents
3x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Swamp
Instants (22)
4x Path to Exile
2x Mana Leak
2x Logic Knot
3x Cast Down
3x Electrolyze
4x Esper Charm
4x Cryptic Command
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Cruel Ultimatum
Creatures (4)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Planeswalkers (4)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Enchantments (1)
1x Search for Azcanta
3x Rest in Peace
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Detention Sphere
2x Negate
2x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
2x Anger of the Gods
Some card explanations:
Anyways, it goldfishes really well, which doesn't particularly mean anything, and it draws relevant answers frequently and often. Every card feels useful, but, most importantly, I can successfully cast Cruel Ultimatum again and relive the glory days!
Ultimate Master Review
Ultimate Masters Review
Yup, I've noticed that in the cEDH servers that there has been a trend towards shifting away from glass-cannon decks. If you're a combo deck, you need to have some sort of built-in resiliency or add more control elements in order to keep ahead of the other glass-cannon combo decks. Tasigur's strategy, and this decklist generally, has been created in such a way as to keep pace with this trend. That's why the card choices are what they are, for the most part. And Tasigur does play the long game very well, the main reason I chose him over other Sultai options.
I really like the idea of Woodfall Primus. I'll have to consider it in place of Hostage Taker. I think the Taker deserves some additional testing before I entirely dismiss her. There's been some awesome situations where she exiles a key creature or mana rock and gives it to me or acts as a 4 CMC Commander removal spell. I'm not totally sold on her yet, because I've had more situations where she's a 4 CMC Commander removal spell or where an opponent gets the chance to get their permanent back from underneath the Taker. Get Wreckt Leviathan has been very up and down for me in the past. Sometimes it's great, and saves the day and keeps it at equilibirum, and other times it's an emergency panic button that resets my field just as hard as anyone else's. The decklist as is is very land lite, and the Leviathan punishes decks that are land lite and mana rock/dork heavy. I think there's a litte too much anti-synergy with the Leviathan for my liking and it's tested poorly in the past. Bane of Progress is pretty awesome and dominates if it resolves. I hadn't fully considered the Bane in this deck, but it might be worthwhile to take a look at it critically.
As mentioned previously, the Reanimation effects are not a focus of the deck. The Reanimation effects that are there are to give the deck resiliency and consistency. Frantic Search has also been another card that's been very hit or miss in testing. And it's certainly not my favorite card to get back with Tasigur should that happen. I've been pretty content with the discard effects that I have in the deck, as Survival is VERY frequently a card I tutor for within the first stages of the game so it's generally always available to me. And if it isn't because it's removed, there are enough additional tutor effects that can replicate what the Survival does. Additionally, having Combo pieces stranded in hand doesn't really occur that frequently.
For the meta I'm playing in, and for a cEDH meta generally, Carpet of Flowers is superior to Exploration. There will come a time in the game where I'm no longer concerned about hitting land drops consistently and the Exploration becomes an empty piece of cardboard. The Carpet is always live, as there is always a minimum of 2 Islands in play at any given time. Life from the Loam has been sufficient in recurring lands from the 'yard and I've found no need for Walking Crucuible or Crucible itself. I did have a version of Tasigur where I played the Crucible and it was mostly a mediocre card when I was playing it. It was nice when the version of Tasigur I was playing was a streamlined Control list, but this deck is not a truly streamlined Control list. There are a lot of Control elements that help to supplement the Combo lines and/or buy time to execute them.
Great ideas and comments, sir. The deck may seem good-stuffy to you but it's performed admirably for me and each card has been carefully thought about and/or tested. The Core synergies that the deck is built around are Mikaeus, Cradle, Survival, Razaketh, and Skullclamp. Many, if not all of the cards in the deck and the decklist itself, have been maximized to push these particular synergy pieces. It's why the deck is so mana dork heavy when that's often a liability for cEDH games.
I'll address your points in turn.
1) Milling key combo pieces is a fair point. What would I do if I were to mill Hulk via Tasigur's ability? There are at least 6 elements of Reanimation in the deck and 10 tutors that can go and find these cards. The 6 Reanimation/Recursion effects are: Muldrotha, Volrath's Stronghold, Animate Dead, Life // Death, Body Snatcher, and Phyrexian Delver. 3 of these cards are creature cards, meaning that I can go and find them via Survival of the Fittest or Eldritch Evolution in order to get that Hulk combo piece into play. Additionally, Snapcaster Mage can recycle one of the hard tutors (i.e. Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor or Diabolic Intent) to find these pieces in addition to the 10 tutor effects in the deck. I'm not too worried about the recursion elements of the deck because there are so many redundant tutors and ways to duplicate the Reanimation effect I'd need in order to execute the Flash Hulk line.
I will also say that, if I'm in the position where I'm playing the long game with Tasigur and I'm actively using his ability and the milling of a Flash Hulk piece has occurred, then the game state has probably degenerated into an equilibrium of sorts that Tasigur can totally take advantage of with his ability. Indeed, this is one of the primary reasons that I chose Tasigur to be the Commander in the first place, as the Primer indicates. If I'm in this particular game state, then it's simply a matter of time before I draw enough Permission and Control pieces to force through one of the Combos I need.
Finally, the Reanimation effects are not the sole focus of the deck and are included because they are meant to be a back up to the Combos and give the deck flexibility and consistency. I'll happily spend an Animate Dead to get back a Protean Hulk to play so that any Wrath effect automatically becomes a losing proposition for my opponent. And should they exile the Hulk, no worries either. I'm still running the Dramatic Scepter Combo.
Perhaps the synergies with the Flash Hulk package aren't explicit enough to you and other readers. I'll try and clarify the synergies that I see for each of the Combo cards and try to demonstrate that the Flash Hulk package is not totally dead in this deck.
Flash - besides being the primary way to kill the Hulk, this card is a cheap way to get an ETB creature into play outside of normal Sorcery speed timing. The creatures that have ETB effects in this deck that can profitably take advantage of Flash are Phyrexian Delver, Body Snatcher, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Spellseeker, and Wood Elves. Additionally, it also acts as an instant speed discard outlet to get some of the juicier targets into the 'yard for a Reanimation effect. I'll happily spend 1U to get Muldrotha into the 'yard so I can Life // Death it to play on my turn and recur some more cards. Flash helps to shortcut the amount of mana that I would need to spend in order to get these more expensive creatures into play with the Reanimation utility that the deck has. I wouldn't underestimate the utility that Flash has in this deck at all.
Carrion Feeder - it's a nice 1 drop that can scale as I feed it creatures. The synergy with Mikaeus is fairly obvious, but the Feeder is also the primary way that I take advantage of Skullclamp. The Feeder makes the Clamp a legitimate source of card advantage to the deck, enabling me to sacrifice creatures at will that don't have 1 toughness so that I can draw cards off of 'Clamp. Additionally, the Feeder acts as another way to get a spent creature into the 'yard in order to Reanimate it. An instant speed sac outlet is also a great way to protect my creatures from exile effects so that my creatures are constantly available to me over the course of a game. And, at times, it can be a legitimate threat on the ground, occasionally being a 5/5 or larger that can put pressure on more reactive Combo Control decks, particularly Ad Nauseam variants. It is tutorable via Survival of the Fittest, counts as a creature for Gaea's Cradle, can kill itself and other creatures for Skullclamp, and has obvious synergy with Mikaeus.
Phyrexian Delver - having an ETB creature that can Reanimate creatures is really good. Being a creature itself is even better since it's tutorable via Survival, counts as a creature for Cradle, carries a Skullclamp like a boss, is an excellent target for Eldritch Evolution, and is a nice Reanimation target if it's in the 'yard so that I can quickly build a board presence. I've intentionally tried to diversify the Reanimation effects across different card types in order to keep Muldrotha live at the mid and late game stage regardless of what I have in my 'yard, and the Delver is an important Reanimation effect for this deck. Besides being a combo piece for the Flash Hulk package itself.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - there is a reason this card is $20+. It certainly doesn't see any Constructed play, which means that the value of this card is almost strictly determined by the Commander market. And Mikaeus is just GOOD. Giving the majority of our board Undying makes Wrath effects a liability for my opponents. The utility of killing Human creatures for free has some minor applications (Kaalia is the one that comes to mind). But otherwise, Mikaeus makes our creatures a whole lot better. He makes Skullclamp a great source of card advantage and helps to get additional utility out of the ETB creatures that are in the deck. He's a creature himself, so he is tutorable via Survival, counts as a creature for Cradle, can himself carry Skullclamp like a boss, is a fine target and sac creature for Eldritch Evolution. Mikeaus is just a good card in any creature based deck, and this version of Tasigur is built to maximize synergies with The Unhallowed.
Protean Hulk - the main piece of the Flash Hulk combo. Not much needs to be said about that. While Flash is definitely the most obvious way to kill the Combo Pig, getting it into play with Phyrexian Tower or with a sac effect in play OR in hand means that you can win after getting it into play. And even if you choose not to assemble the Unhallowed Ballista combo, the Hulk still provides a ton of value if you just use his dying trigger fairly. I'll be pleased, if I'm playing against lesser tier decks, to get Spellseeker, Carrion Feeder, and Phantasmal Image off of the Hulk dying. Or maybe I just need to replace the Hulk with Muldrotha in order to grind hard. Or maybe I have Tasigur in play and I need Seedborn Muse to start accruing late game card advantage because Mikaeus has been somehow exiled. All of these options are fantastic and I'd happily play the Pig in a Black based deck simply because of how good it is at generating an effective and powerful board presence.
Walking Ballista - well, I hope by now that you understand that the Ballista has primary synergies with the deck. Check for Survival, Check for Skullclamp, and Check for Cradle. But the Ballista is also massively powerful with Seedborn Muse in play. I once had the Ballista as a 15/15 by the time it came back to my turn. I could kill any creature I wanted at instant speed and I could also severely damage any player's life total at instant speed. Nevermind being a 15/15. The Ballista is one of the best creatures to have been printed in recent memory. It even sees play in Legacy Tron/Eldrazi decks. If that doesn't speak to the power of this creature, I'm not sure anything else will.
2) This is probably the most significant point you've brought up. Body Snatcher is included in the deck as a clean solution to this problem, since it forces you to discard a creature card in order to keep it in play. This is the primary reason that the Snatcher is in the deck, in all honesty. It's a fairly mediocre Reanimation effect otherwise, but the discard clause makes it so that we can smoothly execute the Flash Hulk combo regardless of which Zone the pieces are in (with the exception of the exile zone, of course). I'm not sure if you've actually read the Primer, but I outline the exact situation that you describe here during the Flash Hulk combo explanation. I encourage you to read it if you haven't done so already.
I've found that the current iteration of the deck has a great balance between the two main combos. I run plenty of mana effects to jam a fast Combo line if it's available and I already run a significant number of tutors to the deck. The only tutors that could be added that would focus the deck more on the Flash Hulk plan is Worldly Tutor and Summoner's Pact. The deck could easily support the Worldly Tutor and the Pact is just too narrow for a 3 color deck anyways. The only other fast mana pieces that could conceivably be added to the deck are Chrome Mox and Mana Vault. I find that the current mana ramp package to be sufficient and very effective for my playstyle, so I feel no need to tool the deck to focus on the Flash Hulk combo any more than I already do.
Thanks for chiming in, Artaud. Flash Hulk has a great deal of synergy with the deck I believe. And in comparison to the ridiculous mana cost of any Palinchron combo, I find that Flash Hulk package to be much more compact and effective. Let's take a critical look at the two combos.
For a Palinchron combo, I'm going to assume that it would be run alongside Phantasmal Image since that's clearly the most mana efficient way to win. This combo requires, at the minimum, 7 actual lands in order to be effective. On top of that, both halves of the combo are sorcery speed, requiring me to tap out on my turn most likely in order to combo. Additionally, Palinchron has a trigger that is more easily responded to in comparison to the Hulk. The Image I'm already playing in the deck, so this change would only require me to add Palinchron to the deck. By cutting the Flash Hulk package, I would be able to free up additional slots in the deck and possibly add in Deadeye Navigator.
So let's look at Deadeye. By itself, he isn't good at all, needing in fact another creature in order to be truly effective. Otherwise, it's just a vanilla 5/5 for 6, which isn't even that good of a rate anymore. But, it does shortcut the land requirement somewhat because you only need 3 lands in order to go infinite. But again, this is another sorcery speed play that requires a certain number of lands in order to win.
The main reason that the Flash Hulk package is in this deck is BECAUSE it wins the game on an entirely different axis than what most Tasigur decks do at a lower CMC and at instant speed. You're right, Tasigur naturally rewards infinite colored mana generation. But the Flash Hulk package is, in my opinion, better.
Yup, you're right. I was trying to reference Conqueror's Flail, not the Inquisitor one. I like the Flail because it makes any future creature that we cast have the ability to be another Abolisher effect. So not only will our opponents have to remove the creature that the Flail is attached to (all of which are usually high impact or Stax in some nature) but they'll ALSO have to deal with the Flail itself or risk being shut out of our turn and probably die.
One thing to consider with Kaalia as you're evaluating card choices like Meltdown is that we really only need 4-6 mana at any given time in order to play our game effectively (usually). Sacrificing a Rock to the Meltdown can hurt to watch, but the ability to trade our 2 cards in for 4+ cards of our opponents is a sweet deal. Not only did we deprive them of mana sources BUT we also gained tempo. You simply need to choose the window that you fire off a symmetrical Wrath effect in an opportune way.
Subterranean Tremors is a pretty awesome scalable Wrath effect. I like that it hits Artifacts after you've spent a certain amount of mana. The only reason I or my wife don't play it is because there is a Brago deck that we consistently play against and killing/Staxing out that Brago opponent is paramount to staying relevant in the game. The Tremors don't hit Brago. The end. If you find that it will hit most of the creatures that you play against, than I highly recommend it because of how well it scales over the course of the game. It's kinda like Cyclonic Rift in that regard.
I totally understand the pride issue about Boil. It's a pretty devious and evil card for any U/x mage to play against. It mostly comes down to what your expectations are with your opponents and yourself. The root of all frustration is unmet expectations. So, is your playgroup ok with MLD? If they are, then there is no reason to run the best type of MLD available to us in our colors. And Boil is one of the best MLD effects against any Blue based deck.
In regards to the fast mana rocks, this is mostly a deck space constraint in all fairness. I want to run more, but the deck space is tight and I find that I only really need between 4-6 mana sources on a consistent basis. Landing an early Stax piece is really good for the deck, and I've often thought about cards to cut in order to add additional fast mana rocks. Of the two you mention, Mana Vault is basically a colorless Dark Ritual in this deck and there aren't really any cards we can afford to Imprint to the Mox.
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet has proven to be exceptionally strong. I built a deck dedicated to it from my Nicol Bolas deck, but I think I need to rebuild Nicol Bolas. He's my favorite character in MTG and I have a playmat of him and everything. It feels wrong to have an EDH deck without my favorite card as the Commander.
Since it sounds like you're fairly committed to switching over to the Mid-Range build, will you be increasing your land count or no? I think the interaction pieces are all well and good, so I have no issue there, but if you're going more mid range it might not be a bad idea to include some additional mana sources. Kydele will take care of your colorless mana requirements for hard casting your threats, which leaves you gated by the number of colored mana symbols you have available. More lands or more mana rocks/dorks might be in order so that you can consistently take advantage of the mana generation that Kydele can output for you, especially with the addition of Wheels and Waste Not.
Oh, if you do add Waste Not you should probably still keep Razaketh in the deck. I think it's good to have at least one big fattie in B so that you can take advantage of the mana output that Waste Not can generate. And Razaketh is clearly the best legal option in Commander for B.