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  • posted a message on Tilting in BFZ Draft
    I've recently come to the same conclusion that when I make really small mistakes in a *somewhat* important Modern game, I feel really bad about myself and ultimately decide to just concede because I'm so mad at myself that I made a small mistake, even if I'm like already winning. Just a couple weeks ago I was up 2-0 and thought I could path a tapped Ojutai on my opponents side on his upkeep before untap, which obviouslly you can not do, but just that simple mistake allowed me to realize that I really wasn't happy playing Magic. As @Puddle Jumper said, you need to take a step back and check if you really are finding enjoyment in the game, as a recreational activity, if it's not fun and you obviously aren't going pro, it might be necessary to just take a break, shelve the cards or stop completely. Also it could perhaps not just be the game that is bothering you, it could also be the players who frequent your LGS. There is a lot of autism, socially awkward people and mental illness in LGS' and if those kind of people don't click with you it could be contributing to not having a good time at your events. Finding a good casual group of friends to draft/play with can be a great way to play and not get uppity about it. @haterado - I also really agree with this, while it might be Magic that is triggering negative feelings, ultimately it's probably something else in your life that is getting aggravated by simple mistakes in the skill intensive game and causing you to tilt. This is only something you can figure out, but like I said before, if Magic is generally causing more frustration then happiness when you're playing you should look at how you spend your recreational time and reevaluate that.
    Posted in: Limited (Sealed, Draft)
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    Okay, yea I just had to click one more button and it showed it to me in the excel document. Good *****. Man that is some dedication, I pretty much only playtest when I get the chance at FNM's and with friends, I've only been to one GP.. That's awesome that there are people like you out there who enjoy just testing multiple decks, and really I support what you're doing. I don't really have the time to do that much myself but promote it.

    I'll message the OP of the thread and see what's up with him and see if he wants to edit it, or edit it myself with the collaboration of the thread. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the B/W version of the deck, as it's the only Magic I play right now and I like lurking this thread and theorycrafting how I can win at my own FNM. There needs to be a more thorough section for the splashes to, as I know people play weird versions of this deck and swear by it. I'm still bent on the B/W build but anyone who lurks here and plays a non budget interesting version of tokens, please post your list and your exact reasoning for the non-typical changes and maybe we can get it added to an updated primer. It would be so nice to be able to direct new players to the primer again and get them up to speed.

    Also your points system seems like a totally good idea as well, because ultimately everyone's build of a a certain deck is slightly different so perhaps higher points could be better tech against the more stereotypical decks we are seeing in other MTGsalvation threads/rankings. If you have the prerogative to set that up man I support you fully as I love this frickin' deck and it's keeping me playing this game.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    @Phone - This is a fantastic idea and I support it fully! I would also like to know who is currently running the page, while your work is awesome and appreciated - the primer could use a sincere update considering our new powerhouses and how there is somewhat of a divide amongst the community on how to build the deck. I would be willing to contribute whatever is needed to assist in making our thread the best it can be for new players and anyone who wants to share ideas. Even the banner image should have Intangible Virtue on it instead of Honor of the Pure, it's kind of misleading - that vigilance wins.

    In regards to your spreadsheat I absolutely love it, it would be an awesome addition to the primer that could be continually updated. I have a buddy who has Grixis / UR Twin and I'll try to do more testing with him to get a better idea of that matchup. Lurking other threads is definitely a useful thing to do, I don't do it myself but it really is a good idea to get an understanding of what other people are doing, and I really like how you're compiling it. One suggestion I have, not sure if it's possible, is if you could set it up in en excel document or something it would be much easier to read and edit. We really need a place, like you said, for people to go and get specific meta advice, because our deck relies SO heavily on meta-tuning and sideboarding. A simple spreadsheet would make it so much easier for people to jump into the conversation and understand what the general consensus is without having to read through many pages. Again, really great idea here and I'm glad you took the initiative.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    They aren't there to stop Burn. They stop the genocidal red sweeper: Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods , and the less played but still relevant Volcanic Fallout . Yes, Forge-Tenders do stop Burn, but that's not their primary job.

    Thanks for the evaluation of the forge tenders, I totally overlooked its power on pyroclasms. I don't see them that often in my meta but I know how goddamn devastating they can be. You've convinced me on them - going to slide some back into the 75.
    Quote from Thumbs »

    My conclusions are:
    - Shambling Vent was not very good. I will be putting some Windbrisk Heights back in, as well as a Vault of the Archangel.
    - Gideon was really awesome in non-combo matchups,
    - Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction actually gives us a nice chance to beat Tron. I see that combo working in other matchups like Scapeshift and Amulet Bloom,
    - Wrath didn't work out as I thought. I guess Zealous Persecution taking out Elves and Birds and Hierarchs will have to do.

    Thanks for your quality post, seems like you did alright! 3-0 must've felt nice. My first suggestion was going to be to get those Windbrisk's back in there. Seems like you've also already made that conclusion. I don't think we need to run as many fetches as you have, and I believe we certainly don't need to play Caves with isolated chapels, shrines and flats.
    In regards to the Wraths, I've come to the same evaluation in my testing as well; zealous persecution is our best out, there just aren't any effective sweepers in our curve. I like to have 1 or 2 ZP's to bring in for game 2 sneakily and often side them out in game 3.
    I'm interested in your Ghost Quarter / Surgical "combo". I've certainly tested with both those cards but not looked at having them together to beat tron and others, I'll test it out when I can.
    Also I think you might want to go up one Gideon if possible, like you said, he is so powerful in the non combo matchups to establish a boardstate.
    I like your 4/3 BB/Raise split, and even though I'm really against cutting any processions, I think this route may be slightly better in certain metas, and I'll probably do some testing on more 2 slot token producers.
    Also did you run into any problems with personal life loss and no Aurioks?
    A rather strange list from an RPTQ that I hadn't seen mentioned in this thread.

    I can't really get behind a lot of those decisions, but it interesting. More Lilis than Sorin. Not sure what Spellskite is doing that Auriok Champion couldn't do. Cut over the fourth Path. Secure the Wastes and Timely Reinforcements over Spectral Procession, which does allow for the two maindeck Ghost Quarter in addition to the Vault. I'm unimpressed by Leyline, but he's running it. Bitterblossom presumably comes in against grindy decks and possibly Affinity. I don't know what to make of this list.

    That is certainly an odd list, I can't see his reasoning on a lot of choices. The Secures and Timely path is interesting, but I have often run into situations where I can't cast timely effectively when I need to. Going down to 3 Path seems like a mistake to me. Also I'm with you on the Leylines, they don't do THAT much in modern. Spellskites I can get behind any day though, in the right matchups that thing would truck, especially in game 1. He has no turn 2 token producers in his mainboard which, to me, seems like a great way to lose. Although I suppose his reasoning is to set up the timely... I don't even know what to take from this list - seems like there are blatantly wrong choices, but that's just me.

    Did it do well?
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    @Phone - What is your reasoning for using Burrenton Forge-Tenders instead of Timely Reinforcements/Kor Firewalkers? - Is it just the turn 1 play?

    2x Auriok 1x Timely Main; 2x Timely 1x Auriok SB is what I am currently playing, with great success against burn. I had found that Kor Firewalkers are very effective at slaughtering burn if you're having trouble in a very burn heavy meta, but ultimately cut them myself from my 15 because I only see a couple burn players. I am very curious about your thoughts on Burrenton though, as I have a playset of them.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    I agree with both murzzz and Phone. After extensive testing that is where I have landed. I have the 4th auriok and seize on hand but rarely put it in my 75. Duress is our best option on Tron, it and a pithing needle is my best offence.

    I've been playing against twin a lot recently and with 3 Auriok and a solid discard plan I'd say I feel we are around or above 70% win chance on your typical U/R twin list
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    Quote from dreamcaster »
    I think the problem with Urborg is that it gives your opponent too much benefit, too.

    I agree with this completely. I honestly wanted to run it for the longest time because I had a beautiful mint condition planar chaos one, but ultimately came to the conclusion we didn't need the extra black, and even though the land wasn't hurting us, it was helping our opponents to, which doesn't feel good when it's not benefiting you. Fetid Heaths are good.

    Quote from dreamcaster »
    How do we deal with these hyper aggressive Zoo lists that have recently popped up? Discard only does so much. Merfolk and Elves are already pretty poor match ups and these aggressive Zoo lists are probably poor as well.

    I only have moderate testing against Merfolk, which has really seem to always come down to luck. Literally no testing against Comapany Elves as I haven't even seen it yet, but some experience with zoo. It actually isn't as bad as you'd think if you can establish early blockers. Right now I'm on 2/2 Raise/BB split (Wanting to up a BB but love raise) and in these kind of match ups raise the alarm is very good. The bolts can be a pain in the ass taking out Plainswalkers but our man Gideon fights them pretty well. For fast match ups like these I would generally side in my 2 zealous persecutions in the board for game 2, even if its only going to work once as a surprise trick I can take them out if I think my opponent won't play into them again. Smother seems like an alright choice for these kind of match ups although I haven't played with it, we just need to survive until we can start casting our spectrals/lingerings and Plainswalkers. Aurioks can do work.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    Quote from gibbousm »
    For the people using Gideon how frequently do you use each of his abilities?

    Gideon seems to round out my 4-drop slot of 3 Sorin & 2 Gideon perfectly in my testing so far. He plays similar to Sorin, but has the advantage of being much more powerful when needing to rebuild your token presence after a token producing spell gets counterspelled, your ***** gets wiped or you have to trade your board. Sorin is better as a win-now-alpha-lifelink-gameswing-card ontop of an army of spectral procession/lingering/BB tokens but kind of lacks when you don't have much token presence. Gideon seems fits that bill perfectly being able to ***** out tokens at little to no risk and also be a potent as hell indestructible anthem. I used to play 2 Heros in his slot but am liking how Gideon can make a token right when I put him down way better. Hero is still a fantastic card though, it's never to far from my sideboard.

    To answer your question, he generally will be an indestructible anthem when played akin to a Sorin, but shines so much brighter when you're starving on tokens - which actually can happen a lot. He can change a game by himself by just making 2/2 tokens until you can cast another token producer or simply have enough tokens to profitably pop his ultimate and swing for win. His rarest mode seems to be his creature (in my meta at least). But he swings profitably through rhinos/tasigurs and other baddies when you can't profitably swing with your tokens because you have no vigilance which can be nice to start a clock; but generally making more tokens is better.

    t1 discard > t2 BB > t3 lingering > t4 Gideon pop for anthem isn't bad at all.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    The discussion in this forum seems to have degenerated a little bit. People should NOT be talking about budget lists, asking for help on your deck really doesn't do anything unless you give a detailed analysis of your meta and post sincere thoughtful questions as opposed to just "thoughts?" Also it's really not helpful to new players to come to the most recent page of the forum and see really jank/budget lists. We are trying to make our deck the best we can here, there are sightly different approaches but we want to strive to find the best and give each other constructive criticism. Our deck wins with a seriously targeted SB; most of us have established that. I have about 24 cards I have prepared to put in for any events.

    Also you should read through a lot of pages before you make a suggestion. Odds are most things have been discussed. Suggesting things such as cut spectral procession or Windbrisk Heights is so counter productive to the discussion. Windbrisk is our only "unfair" card advantage. I get people toying with splashes and I encourage playing around, but don't confuse new players please!!! None of the splash lists I've seen yet have convinced me at all, I don't want to sacrifice a comfy landbase for 1 or 2 alright spells that don't even beat tron for me. The reason our deck is so powerful is because it's so efficient and simple. We capitalize on spells that create multiple creatures and buff them with Intangible Virtue (Vigilance being so damn key) We are in some of the best sideboard colors that can potentially just ***** on people.

    It seems the general consensus right now is that our toughest t1 matchups are Tron and Merfolk. Loading up your ass with 1B discard spells (I'm sideing 3 duress myself) seems like the best way to handle tron right now, but is by no means ideal. I still lose probably just over 50%. Beating Merfolk is just luck right now it seems. Burn is very beatable with Aurioks, if you're in a burn heavy meta perhaps roll the Raises instead of the BBs. I haven't had any problems with Abzan.

    We need more thoughtful posts about how t1/t2 and emerging decks play out in competitive games! I'll really work on serious testing more myself. People proxy cards if you don't have them, Liliana of the Veil is so effective; Gideon has tested like a champ for me so far. Sorin is undeniable. Play your Aurioks! I really think our deck is much much more powerful then people give it credit for. We've got some seriously good new goodies recently - and who knows what's coming.

    Thanks guys
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens

    This is my current list, testing so far on Gideon has been so stellar that I've upped him to 2 and cut Hero of Bladehold from my mainboard completely. He really is doing EVERYTHING we want him to, *****s out tokens, swings for a potent clock, and provides an indestructible anthem; most of the time we only need 1 anthem to ride to victory. Recently went from a 3/3 Inquisition/Seize split to a 4/3 in favor of inquisition. Pretty much every single matchup I want to see them, thoughtseize can be a little dangerous. I want to get up to a 3rd Raise the Alarm but am not sure what further changes to make at this time. I'm feeling very confident about our deck, Gideon synergies perfectly, I think our deck will be moving up in the world. Still undecided about upping bitterblossoms as well, I was avoiding them completely but caved and 2 has seemed to test well so far. I'm not convinced on 2 of the manland yet, he has only once provided significant value for me, albeit it did win me a game where I drew no tokens. I'll post a report after my next modern event.


    The Hero of Bladehold is a filler spot, if Gideon continues to prove himself I might end up cutting hero fully for the time being (I was main decking 2 before Gideon announce.) I also have no idea when to bring the 3rd Liliana in, I know she's ******* great but where do I actually NEED her from a SB plan? Possibly looking at moving her out as well for better answers. Zealous Persecutions come in to fight opposing ones and when the removal is almost guaranteed to hit. Unfortunately I don't get the most competitive testing in my meta so my sideboard is tuned for the decks I see. I am looking to craft a good catchall board for an unknown meta, I feel like I have biases when boarding, what am I missing here? Any ideas?

    EDIT: At the people running fulminators does he do what you want him to? I have 2 but cut them because they weren't even stopping tron like I wanted them to.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    @Kuzcos - Tron is our worst matchup, Burn/Aggro can be difficult without Auriok's & Timelys. Otherwise we are generally quite well matched up against most fair decks.

    EDIT: Your list is really missing out without Intangible Virtue, the Vigilance is what wins games
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    I picked up a Gideon and am preforming testing, out of the three times ive drawn the singleton its swung the game. Hopes are VERY high for us with this card. I will post a decklist soon

    Edit:
    Singleton B/W manland also looks good, beat a Jeskai control deck on the beatdown with it. Not convinced on 2 yet, I still run 3 Windbrisk
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
  • posted a message on Maybe this set does suck, and maybe that's okay.
    @Infernal_Denizen You are ignorant and a fool. Did you even read the OP? Pure asshat here gentlemen.

    Also in regards to the OP I really like how he put it. I haven't been keeping up on the hate threads because as far as I'm concerned Magic will go on, but I do like how OP laid things out here. People have the right to question and consider and in the end everyones opinion is valid, because it's just an opinion. I'd say we'll have to wait and see if the set really is a "bunk" but as others have said here already I think Wizards knows what they're doing and I have faith limited will be decent. If not? Then i'll reconsider.
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on What's the deal with BFZ?
    The only card I have any interest in in the set is the new Gideon. I think he might make a break as a 1-of in BW tokens but other then that I think it's generally a strictly limited set. It reminds me a lot of Rise of Eldrazi in the sense of limited. I'm curious to see how it'll draft but I also agree with you on the constructed point. Pretty damn underwhelming for Modern. Why the fk are the new Eldrazi so lame??
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Tokens
    Quote from ACID8000 »
    now that we know that battle for zendikar have enemy color manlands, u guys think there is enough space in the deck to put a pair of those?(assuming that the bw manland is good or decent, maybe something like 2/2 deathtouch lifelink ),instead of isolated chapels for example

    I was just thinking this. We'll have to wait and see till they're spoiled but I have high hopes.

    Also does anyone see any potential in the Gideon as a 1 of?
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Deck Creation
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