Against Gearhulk decks, is it actually worth bringing in Abrade? I feel like our goal is to blow them out so that it's too late for Gearhulk to save them. And importantly, Abrade can't go to the face.
Maybe it could be worth it against UW decks with lifegain, but straight UR or Grixis, you might be able to burn them out of the game even after casting the Gearhulk, so it might not matter.
What do you find most problematic about the matchup? Are we too slow? Do we need lifegain? Their falter abilities?
If we are too slow, I am wondering if we should opt for Chandra Torch of Defiance, removing counter (some) counters, decreasing the torrential count and maybe using something like metallurgic summonings to diversify our threats.
If the problem is we need lifegain then maybe we need to run as Jeskai and opt for blessed alliance and fumigate.
If falter is the problem, then maybe we lean on flash with nimble obstructionist and spell queller.
What do you think?
I don't know if Jeskai is the way to go, but I absolutely believe that if you want to win Monored, you need Authority of the Consuls, and maybe Blessed Alliance. Fumigate is too slow.
Also maybe Crumble to Dust if you intend to keep the long game plan.
You're also giving other decks too much credit in regards to adapting. There is a second mover advantage when it comes to adapting to a meta, and given that control decks are reactive by nature, it stands to reason that they will always be superior when it comes to adapting to a meta. Whatever idea you might think of to adapt to a control-based meta, control can adapt back just as quickly.
Standard is going to hell once again due to the best deck being control. We've already seen Wizards citing "not fun" and justification to ban cards, and control sure as hell isn't fun to play against. Question becomes whether Wizards wants to dismantle control completely (i.e. Banning Torrential Gearhulk) or cut out some the new tools that have pushed it too much into top tier (i.e. Hour of Devastation.
Speak for yourself, I for one love the countermagic wars.
Also, isn't it a bit early to start the witch hunt? It's only been two weeks, that's barely enough time for any deck to adapt.
Question: If you are playing straight UR, no black for Bolas, how do you deal with a resolved Bolas?
This is my biggest concern. Ideally you counter it, which shouldn't be terribly difficult because they would need probably 9 mana at a minimum to cast it with back up counter magic, and at that point you just keep 2 counters available. But rare circumstances are going to happen and it will sometimes get in. So is it worth adjusting the deck in some way to be able to beat it (like Imprisoned on the Moon) which will weaken the deck otherwise, or better to assume you can keep counter magic for it up and the rare time it does land you just accept as a loss?
Run 1 copy of Commit/Memory. It won't hurt your consistency overall, as it's a decent answer to everything (actually the only good answer UR has to Sphinx as well). It's far from ideal, of course, but it's your only way of removing it from the game.
Wait, how does Commit answer Sphinx exactly?
You can target the Sphinx as it's being cast (on the stack). Then you'll have to find a way to use Memory before he draws it again.
Not the best answer, but it's better than being forced to use summary dismissal, or maybe you could try to use Hour of Devastation, but it's a terrible card in the matchup.
Question: If you are playing straight UR, no black for Bolas, how do you deal with a resolved Bolas?
This is my biggest concern. Ideally you counter it, which shouldn't be terribly difficult because they would need probably 9 mana at a minimum to cast it with back up counter magic, and at that point you just keep 2 counters available. But rare circumstances are going to happen and it will sometimes get in. So is it worth adjusting the deck in some way to be able to beat it (like Imprisoned on the Moon) which will weaken the deck otherwise, or better to assume you can keep counter magic for it up and the rare time it does land you just accept as a loss?
Run 1 copy of Commit/Memory. It won't hurt your consistency overall, as it's a decent answer to everything (actually the only good answer UR has to Sphinx as well). It's far from ideal, of course, but it's your only way of removing it from the game.
Do you think it would be better to side in Kefnet the mindful against mirror match (which I guess will become quite frequent)? I would predict that Hour of Devastation would be sided out game 2. I think we really need an alternative wincon that resists to Hour of Devastation and abrade. Maybe fevered visions is fine against control or one of the 3 gods. Unfortunately the UR one is not very big enough. The UB one would rarely end up producing zombies in the mirror. The BR one is also not very efficient against control (it can kill non Lumbering Falls manlands though).
Absolutely. Kefnet and Fevered Visions are amazing in the mirror.
If you can land them on t3, it's game. Only a commit/memory or Hour of Devastation (against Kefnet) can deal with those, and good luck landing them against a load of counterspells.
I never said busted like Marvel or Copycat. I mean that cards like Hour of Devastation, Abrade, Supreme Will, etc. gives U/R Control too many new tools and too much a push into tier 1 territory. Essentially I think it will become the best deck in HOU standard, and that is the problem: Standard is extremely bad when the best deck is a hardcore control deck like U/R.
It won't, trust me. While it may even become a tier 1 deck, the other t1 are perfectly able of adapting to it.
I am going to call it right now: Standard will be busted again. Thus time not by one super OP card but by one card giving U/R Control a push too much over the top as a tier 1 deck: Hour of Devastation
Outside of the existence of super OP combos, Standard is typically very bad when the top tier deck is either a very aggro deck or a super control deckfor user aggro decks requires you to have your shield up by Turn 1, while extremely control-y de KS requires you to have just the right hand to start aggressive on Turn 1.
U/R Control is already very good as it is. People complain that it lacks answers for certain cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar but that is why it play so many counterspells. U/R Control as we see it today is the most controlling deck in recent Standard, playing an average of about 12 counterspells and 7-10 draw spells, and this already makes it very frustrating to play against; just like how Marvel made Standard terrible, hardcore control decks like U/R do the same by not allowing interactions, which is how the game of Magic is supposed to be played. You can interact if you can't even get a goddamn spell to resolve. People playing against U/R Control know that the the way to beat it is to keep dropping threats knowing that at some point you'll resolve something they can't answer to; but by giving U/R a card like Hour of Devastation, it's hopeless to even play.
Sure maybe U/R needs some better answers to what they don't counter. But something like Hour of Devastation is too much.
If you don't believe me then enjoy your FNMs full of super grindy matches that consistently go overtime.
UR Control is indeed a good deck, but in the current format, the other tier 1 decks are simply stronger (both in terms of synergy and in individual card quality). This is a big deal, since you can't really grind out these decks as efficiently as a control would like, and if at any moment you don't have an answer to a green gearhulk or a cub t2, that's it. Also, UR is awful against PWs, and I mean REALLY awful.
Has the deck gained some new tools? Absolutely.
Will they be enough for it to become a "busted" deck? Obviously not.
But, just in case it becomes a tier 1 deck, all you need to do is run Kefnet/Fevered Visions in the sideboard. If you land it on t3 on the play, it's game over.
Ok, so in the Mirror, a resolved Bolas is nearly impossible to beat unless you just have nothing else.
this has been the case for any resolved planeswalker really. You're just way ahead at this point. I had a chandra flamecaller maindeck for that reason, always came out post board though.
Yes, UR is terrible at dealing with any resolved PWs. Either you counter them or they'll just win.
It's one of the things that made me stop playing this deck, actually. But maybe Hour of Devastation will help with this, we'll see.
Before we get too much into the sideboard discussion, can we all agree at least to what we expect the meta is? What are the main decks you expect to play against? It's easier for me to go to the board when I know what our main is trying to best beat.
Probably not a lot of changes. Zombies and Mardu are still a thing, RGx/Temur energy and BG Counters as well... Maybe a little bit more of Control (both Jeskai and Grixis), but nothing Tier 1.
As for new decks to watch, I'd say mono white Monument and some Metalwork Colossus variants.
HOU isn't going to change much when it comes to the meta.
What're everyone's thoughts on a grixis tap-out control shell? I'm thinking heavy on removal (so black central) and planeswalkers, functionally pretty similar to the W/B tap out control of EMN. Top end maybe 3 gearhulks, one of each new god, and one god Pharaoh?
I don't know, I think the scarab God outclass the locust god by a huge margin. Maybe 2 of him if you're not running other creatures (which would be weird, not running even Glorybringers), otherwise just 1.
Maybe you'd play nicol bolas, but honestly I think scarab god is such a beast it might be worth running just him.
I've started playing UR control few weeks ago and went 7-0-2 in matches in last 3 local tournaments (played vs mirror & esper control, vs jund gods, vs mardu machines, etc)
One interesting thing I've found is that my sideboard plans all had one thing in common:
-4 Torrential Gearhulk
-3 Censor (I play only 3)
-something else, depending on matchup
+4 Thing in the Ice
+2 Dragonmaster Outcast
+4 Dispel
+1 Negate
+something else
So, what your thoughts on siding out all gearhulks and becoming more lighter tempo deck?
I don't like it. Against good competition they know you do this. Whenever I play Online Qualifiers or Competitive Leagues, people keep in their cheap removal for g2 expecting exactly this. I do have to question the level of competition you have been playing against if this strategy works. If you want to actually go the "tempo" route, I would run 2-4 Stormchaser Mage and cut the DragonMaster Outcast.
I have been having good success with a few 3-2 and 4-1 finishes recently (since Marvel ban) in competitive league's and qualifiers online. Here is my list.
I am planning on giving Dynavolt Tower a try. The card is great against midrange decks, and that seems to be the theme of current decks. It also deals with the pesky x/3's in the format AND Planeswalkers (which the deck sucks against) including all these creatures:
That doesn't even include all the x/2 it kills off of a Glimmer or one of our counter spells. I think it could have a great place (again) in a deck like this, where Planeswalkers and out of range of Magma Spray cards just do work against us.
Interesting list. Has Chandra been working for you? Because at first glance, she seems kinda weird in a draw-go control deck like this.
Also, which matchups would you say are the hardest for this deck? And which cards would you remove for Dynavolt Tower?
I've been out for a while with moving and still not sure when I'll be able to play properly again. Took your build to my last event Chaos, lost 2-0 vs 2 different UR Control decks, beat a Temur value deck (he had mana issues both games I won) and beat some other random deck I can't remember. Deck performed ok,
I feel like something else is needed vs UR, one opp did basically nut draw me and I kept drawing the relevant spells a turn late (3 visions out and then I draw the counters...) and the other loss was his board is a lot better imo. He lowers his curve whereas mine stays similar or gets slightly higher.
UR control player here (at least I was before I dropped it). Last time I played a control x control match (a long time ago actually), I got busted by Kefnet t3. Since I boarded out Censor and had no Essence Scatter on hand, it resolved and basically won the game from there.
Maybe it could be good to run him as a 2-of in your sideboard?
Time to jump on Grixis Control in anticipation of Nicol Bolas. Bust out those Transgress the Minds!
Fun little synergy: t4 chandra ToD allows you to play Bolas t5 with her +1.
Thing is, she is terrible on a draw-go control deck, you'll need to build a tap-out control on blue somehow.
Maybe it could be worth it against UW decks with lifegain, but straight UR or Grixis, you might be able to burn them out of the game even after casting the Gearhulk, so it might not matter.
I don't know if Jeskai is the way to go, but I absolutely believe that if you want to win Monored, you need Authority of the Consuls, and maybe Blessed Alliance. Fumigate is too slow.
Also maybe Crumble to Dust if you intend to keep the long game plan.
Speak for yourself, I for one love the countermagic wars.
Also, isn't it a bit early to start the witch hunt? It's only been two weeks, that's barely enough time for any deck to adapt.
You can target the Sphinx as it's being cast (on the stack). Then you'll have to find a way to use Memory before he draws it again.
Not the best answer, but it's better than being forced to use summary dismissal, or maybe you could try to use Hour of Devastation, but it's a terrible card in the matchup.
Run 1 copy of Commit/Memory. It won't hurt your consistency overall, as it's a decent answer to everything (actually the only good answer UR has to Sphinx as well). It's far from ideal, of course, but it's your only way of removing it from the game.
Absolutely. Kefnet and Fevered Visions are amazing in the mirror.
If you can land them on t3, it's game. Only a commit/memory or Hour of Devastation (against Kefnet) can deal with those, and good luck landing them against a load of counterspells.
It won't, trust me. While it may even become a tier 1 deck, the other t1 are perfectly able of adapting to it.
UR Control is indeed a good deck, but in the current format, the other tier 1 decks are simply stronger (both in terms of synergy and in individual card quality). This is a big deal, since you can't really grind out these decks as efficiently as a control would like, and if at any moment you don't have an answer to a green gearhulk or a cub t2, that's it. Also, UR is awful against PWs, and I mean REALLY awful.
Has the deck gained some new tools? Absolutely.
Will they be enough for it to become a "busted" deck? Obviously not.
But, just in case it becomes a tier 1 deck, all you need to do is run Kefnet/Fevered Visions in the sideboard. If you land it on t3 on the play, it's game over.
Yes, UR is terrible at dealing with any resolved PWs. Either you counter them or they'll just win.
It's one of the things that made me stop playing this deck, actually. But maybe Hour of Devastation will help with this, we'll see.
Probably not a lot of changes. Zombies and Mardu are still a thing, RGx/Temur energy and BG Counters as well... Maybe a little bit more of Control (both Jeskai and Grixis), but nothing Tier 1.
As for new decks to watch, I'd say mono white Monument and some Metalwork Colossus variants.
HOU isn't going to change much when it comes to the meta.
I don't know, I think the scarab God outclass the locust god by a huge margin. Maybe 2 of him if you're not running other creatures (which would be weird, not running even Glorybringers), otherwise just 1.
Maybe you'd play nicol bolas, but honestly I think scarab god is such a beast it might be worth running just him.
Interesting list. Has Chandra been working for you? Because at first glance, she seems kinda weird in a draw-go control deck like this.
Also, which matchups would you say are the hardest for this deck? And which cards would you remove for Dynavolt Tower?
UR control player here (at least I was before I dropped it). Last time I played a control x control match (a long time ago actually), I got busted by Kefnet t3. Since I boarded out Censor and had no Essence Scatter on hand, it resolved and basically won the game from there.
Maybe it could be good to run him as a 2-of in your sideboard?
Fun little synergy: t4 chandra ToD allows you to play Bolas t5 with her +1.
Thing is, she is terrible on a draw-go control deck, you'll need to build a tap-out control on blue somehow.