I'm thinking our anti-U stuff (REB and Pyroblast) actually is the key. Maintaing high hate levels in the board is nessesary, and a maindeck featuring SSGs may also be required - Hulkflash can be THAT FAST. Walking thier Flash into a SSGed REB sounds like gamewin Burn.
If testing shows this is just not enough, we may be forced into a colour splash. I'm thinking black has the goods - Leyline of the Void and Extirpate to be precise. Ghostly Flame becomes a sideboard option too, if the talk around Ghostfire has you thinking it's worth it.
Legacy is hotting up again. Combos are getting faster. As our traditional strategy is racing and our average kill is around turn 4, we really need to critically examine Burns position in this metagame where that's just not fast enough.
too right about this being (initially) just an extended version....the author really should have put some research in. If nothing from Invasion back was relevent I'd be quite surprised.
I've seen successful 1.5 versions running Tangle Wire/Rishadian Port disruption and Goblin Welder recursion, seemed strong as some way to put off an opponent's gameplan is almost required vs Iggy Pop and the like. Lotus Petal is aso tempting for that reason - getting the TWire out pronto.
Are we sure this is the only 1.5 affinity thread? It can be a contender, and the fact that more modern players often have most of the deck is a nice way to get them into Legacy......
Cranial is great, I'm finding it too slow and counterable. Used to use Sakura TE, haven't been missing it and color screw isn't an issue. Not happy with Nezumis Shortfang, but in my aggro meta the Spike Feeder is great. This gift pile is nuts...
Hierarch
Baloth
Spike
Wish/Witness
The secondary ability of moving a +1/+1 counter has also been handy, making a 4/4 big enough to get past bigger blockers on occation.
The extra Therapies are still in the board, and come in where appropriate. I'm in an aggro meta, I'm not advocating this list for you and yours.
Ya gifts is like that aye. Seems like it's so easy to add additional 4-card piles to the deck, I'm guilty as well. Be sure to have multiple dovetailing combos off your tertiary 1-ofs, opponents sweat more making thier Gifts decisions. I'd be careful with the Mindslaver pile though - you'll need redic mana develpoment and Genesis recusion online from a previous Gifts to make it work I suspect...
Been playing this all season and have feedback on the UW big mana matchup. Firstly, if you feel they have run dry on counters, IMHO Wish target is often best being Kataki. Obviously it will depend on thier board, but it can retard thier development well. I also have tested Extirpate side by side with Cranial Extraction, and IMHO it's better in this matchup. We have an excess of ways to get thier win conditions in thier 'yard - Extirpate has on many occations 'gone to town' via Witness recursion, and it's cheap CC has been instrumental in getting the business done before Tron mana saves them the day. It's not clear cut - obviously I'd prefer naming 'Sundering Titan' before they play one and Cranial can, but the cheap CC and Split Second seems to have a lot going for it and is v.v.good vs the versions running old-skool Eternal Dragon/Exalted Angel/Decree/Mindslaver wins. Extirpate is also the nut high grave-hater vs AggroLoam. Extra feedback would be appreciated if NE1 out there cares to test with this....
My version is a bit more toolboxy than most. I squeezed in 1 x Pychatog, 1 Life from the Loam and 3 cyclelands, the idea being that I can Gift for a DredgeAtog strategy or just the carddraw. LftL is making Ghost Quarter a valuable addition to the Wishboard, especially in that UWTron matchup. A single Solitary Confinement in the board also comes in vs aggro and has proved wildly sussessful for a number of reasons a) We can keep it via Genesis as well as LftL b) aggro must streamline 'answers' to solidify thier threatbase, and will often not have anything against enchantments vs giftsrock post-board. This has led to several deckings.
I've also been using Nezumi Shortfang as a wish target, but he hasn't been that good. I'd enjoy a discard option on the wishboard, have NE1 of you guys had success with another, like Mindslicer, Okiba-gang Shinobi or something?
anyways, here my janky Sydney meta version. As always a work in progress....
Yeah, big difference. You cannot use it as a counterspell (vs stuff like Reset) and it won't destroy anything either (like Serendib Efreet). This comes up often enough to make Pyroblast )or Red Elemental Blast) a significantly better card in the same slot. Pity abut the card draw, but thats the way it is.
You are obviously fearing counterspell decks. Don't. Counters generally have higher CC than burn, and by casting in flurries enough burn slips through to kill a countermage. Defence Grid and Sirrocco are good options to back up Pyroblast and REB, if counter heavy decks are common in your meta. More pro-active solutions may be Hammer of Bogardan, Urza's Rage, or other recurring damage sources like Cursed Scroll.
Are getting much in the way of turn three wins ? Has it mattered much ?
Turn 3 kills are easiest off the back of Price of Progress in my meta - I couldn't use the spell as well with a Rw manabase. The random Fork on Fireblast can be another turn 3...
Rw was generally fine, but turn 4s are all that can be expected really. The sideboard tech available is great - but we already have things covered in mono-R e.g. Rule of Law vs Pyrostatic Pillar for combo hate, which is really better? Shahrazad was the most fun reason to run the white spash, it actually could result in turn 3 kills, but it didn't really make the deck reliable. The WW manacost was clunky and the actual dollarcost prohibitive. I did borrow a set to try them out, a totally different build with 3 main, 1 board and 3 X Burning Wish. During a subgame, you can wish for a Shahrazad still on the stack in the original game - totally legal. Unfortunaly, when the original game is re-commenced no-one knows where the spell is (a rules blackspot) and you have "intentionally disrupted the integrity of the game-state". Result? Target judge slaps you for causing the rules to implode. A burn deck that can destroy 'reality'? YES PLEASE!:D
Of course the deck was fun, but unreliable, expensive, usually slower, more disruptable, and Helix didn't make up for the pain generated by a manabase geared to achieving WW on turn 2. That plus the fact that subgames could be lost vs other aggro decks made it a far worse deck at racing.
So yeah, it usually lost, and who wants to play a burn deck that does that? NO THANX!:-/ Like I said, back to mono-R goodness!
The Enchantress decks in my meta have been hated out, allowing me to drop the generally successful white splash (for sideboard Tempest of Light, not just Lightning Helix) and return to pure mono-R goodness. Here is what I've come back with, a pretty standard list.
I hope this flat list is helpful. Price of Progress is really good ATM in my metagame (despite an increase in Solidarity), easily replaced by Chain of Plasma or Flame Rift (if beatdown is weak) if Price oP isn't relevent to you. If I was forced to fit more maindeck metagame slots in, the Fork would be first to leave - followed by a Flamebreak if aggro was weak or an Incinerate (shock horror!).
Too true, goblin players describe Burn as a 'terrible' matchup for them. If you are looking for a more general solution to creature based decks, I suggest checking out Repercussion - I've been siding it in for creature matchups for years, it's just cruel, I cannot remember losing a match with this on the table.
Shindig_Ascension: I've tested Baubleburn variants, and can report that they can suffer from bad topdecks when you need to hit burn in the critical last turns, this can get a bit annoying. The 'mini-brainstorms' you can get off are nice, but seem to not matter a lot over regular burn, as one burn spell is as good as another. Fact is, tempo dictates fetches are cracked quite early, and topdecking burn is still just as vital for us into the midgame when this effect is already exhaused - if you want any deckthinning at all.
I do think the deck might be a bit of a better choice in a fractured metagame. If you have all 2 of a kinds in your board to cover the spread, this plus MJet and even 2 x Browbeat is a decent way to improve you odds of finding your tech.
Shino Tenshi : Trinisphere doesn't effect suspend costs, your Rift Bolts are great here.
magicianofthought : Price of Progress for 3? It deals damage in multiples of 2. Do you mean 3 nonbasics in play?
I'm persevering with the white splash ATM. Tempest of Light seems like nessesary tech for some Solitaire (Enchantress) decks emerging in my local meta. I can confirm Wasteland is a far bigger pain in the neck than before I swiched over from monoR.
NEW TECH!!! I've been testing Shahrazad on MWS and it can be both the bomb AND a total roflfest. It has been especially strong vs combodecks, I suggest ppl try it out for a few laughs, and I'd love some more feedback before I go shelling out $100's for a set....
Barbarian Ring is certainly not an auto for the deck, and can be generally unsynergistic. I've had some success with it though, killing with 6 spells and achieving threshhold using Fireblast. Initially I used them as I felt 18 mountains was about right for Fireblasts requirements, but 20 mana sources were needed to cast Anarchy from the side when needed - and in my meta it sure was needed. Using it has also taught me not to fear Wasteland, so I'm using the white splash these days.
If you already happen to have Gaea's Cradle (and maybe a few Cursed Scroll) it would be cheap as chips to test out a 9-land stompy. These are the only money rares, perhaps some Drop of Honey in the sideboard with the change?
incidently, the deck doesn't realy need any of these expensive rares, checkitout
Wind that Shakes the Barley - as performed by This Mortal Coil
Will You Miss Me When You're Sober - Deborah Conway
Iron Man - Black Sabbath
I'm Not Here - Radiohead
Tears In Heaven - Eric Clapton
Danny Boy - Traditional
His Fathers Eyes - George Micheal
Wuthering Heights - Kate Bush
One - Metallica
many many more, ex music journo here. Edits forthcoming.
Got mine playing rugby league, apparently I hit like a truck. Musta picked 'Barbarian' in character select. Also used it as an online and pen name since early 90's.
Unfortunately, Knights of Stromgald don't seem to exist. This is making it difficult to include them. I know you cannot mean Stromgald Crusader, as you would have read the decklist and seen them there, and later seen Kev refer to them as jump knights.
What are you on about?
I'm thinking our anti-U stuff (REB and Pyroblast) actually is the key. Maintaing high hate levels in the board is nessesary, and a maindeck featuring SSGs may also be required - Hulkflash can be THAT FAST. Walking thier Flash into a SSGed REB sounds like gamewin Burn.
If testing shows this is just not enough, we may be forced into a colour splash. I'm thinking black has the goods - Leyline of the Void and Extirpate to be precise. Ghostly Flame becomes a sideboard option too, if the talk around Ghostfire has you thinking it's worth it.
Legacy is hotting up again. Combos are getting faster. As our traditional strategy is racing and our average kill is around turn 4, we really need to critically examine Burns position in this metagame where that's just not fast enough.
I've seen successful 1.5 versions running Tangle Wire/Rishadian Port disruption and Goblin Welder recursion, seemed strong as some way to put off an opponent's gameplan is almost required vs Iggy Pop and the like. Lotus Petal is aso tempting for that reason - getting the TWire out pronto.
Are we sure this is the only 1.5 affinity thread? It can be a contender, and the fact that more modern players often have most of the deck is a nice way to get them into Legacy......
Hierarch
Baloth
Spike
Wish/Witness
The secondary ability of moving a +1/+1 counter has also been handy, making a 4/4 big enough to get past bigger blockers on occation.
The extra Therapies are still in the board, and come in where appropriate. I'm in an aggro meta, I'm not advocating this list for you and yours.
Been playing this all season and have feedback on the UW big mana matchup. Firstly, if you feel they have run dry on counters, IMHO Wish target is often best being Kataki. Obviously it will depend on thier board, but it can retard thier development well. I also have tested Extirpate side by side with Cranial Extraction, and IMHO it's better in this matchup. We have an excess of ways to get thier win conditions in thier 'yard - Extirpate has on many occations 'gone to town' via Witness recursion, and it's cheap CC has been instrumental in getting the business done before Tron mana saves them the day. It's not clear cut - obviously I'd prefer naming 'Sundering Titan' before they play one and Cranial can, but the cheap CC and Split Second seems to have a lot going for it and is v.v.good vs the versions running old-skool Eternal Dragon/Exalted Angel/Decree/Mindslaver wins. Extirpate is also the nut high grave-hater vs AggroLoam. Extra feedback would be appreciated if NE1 out there cares to test with this....
My version is a bit more toolboxy than most. I squeezed in 1 x Pychatog, 1 Life from the Loam and 3 cyclelands, the idea being that I can Gift for a DredgeAtog strategy or just the carddraw. LftL is making Ghost Quarter a valuable addition to the Wishboard, especially in that UWTron matchup. A single Solitary Confinement in the board also comes in vs aggro and has proved wildly sussessful for a number of reasons a) We can keep it via Genesis as well as LftL b) aggro must streamline 'answers' to solidify thier threatbase, and will often not have anything against enchantments vs giftsrock post-board. This has led to several deckings.
I've also been using Nezumi Shortfang as a wish target, but he hasn't been that good. I'd enjoy a discard option on the wishboard, have NE1 of you guys had success with another, like Mindslicer, Okiba-gang Shinobi or something?
anyways, here my janky Sydney meta version. As always a work in progress....
4 Wall of Roots
3 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Withered Wretch
1 Psychatog
1 Spike Feeder
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Genesis
3 Living Wish
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Smother
2 Putrefy
2 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Withered Wretch
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Extirpate
You don't need to edit for bloody cardtags when you have a deck tag!
You are obviously fearing counterspell decks. Don't. Counters generally have higher CC than burn, and by casting in flurries enough burn slips through to kill a countermage. Defence Grid and Sirrocco are good options to back up Pyroblast and REB, if counter heavy decks are common in your meta. More pro-active solutions may be Hammer of Bogardan, Urza's Rage, or other recurring damage sources like Cursed Scroll.
Turn 3 kills are easiest off the back of Price of Progress in my meta - I couldn't use the spell as well with a Rw manabase. The random Fork on Fireblast can be another turn 3...
Rw was generally fine, but turn 4s are all that can be expected really. The sideboard tech available is great - but we already have things covered in mono-R e.g. Rule of Law vs Pyrostatic Pillar for combo hate, which is really better?
Shahrazad was the most fun reason to run the white spash, it actually could result in turn 3 kills, but it didn't really make the deck reliable. The WW manacost was clunky and the actual dollarcost prohibitive. I did borrow a set to try them out, a totally different build with 3 main, 1 board and 3 X Burning Wish. During a subgame, you can wish for a Shahrazad still on the stack in the original game - totally legal. Unfortunaly, when the original game is re-commenced no-one knows where the spell is (a rules blackspot) and you have "intentionally disrupted the integrity of the game-state". Result? Target judge slaps you for causing the rules to implode. A burn deck that can destroy 'reality'? YES PLEASE!:D
Of course the deck was fun, but unreliable, expensive, usually slower, more disruptable, and Helix didn't make up for the pain generated by a manabase geared to achieving WW on turn 2. That plus the fact that subgames could be lost vs other aggro decks made it a far worse deck at racing.
So yeah, it usually lost, and who wants to play a burn deck that does that? NO THANX!:-/ Like I said, back to mono-R goodness!
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Fireblast
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Incinerate
3 x Price of Progress
1 x Fork
4 x Flamebreak
2 x Barbarian Ring
18 x Mountain
Sideboard cards are selected during rego, prime picks ATM are:
I hope this flat list is helpful. Price of Progress is really good ATM in my metagame (despite an increase in Solidarity), easily replaced by Chain of Plasma or Flame Rift (if beatdown is weak) if Price oP isn't relevent to you. If I was forced to fit more maindeck metagame slots in, the Fork would be first to leave - followed by a Flamebreak if aggro was weak or an Incinerate (shock horror!).
Shindig_Ascension: I've tested Baubleburn variants, and can report that they can suffer from bad topdecks when you need to hit burn in the critical last turns, this can get a bit annoying. The 'mini-brainstorms' you can get off are nice, but seem to not matter a lot over regular burn, as one burn spell is as good as another. Fact is, tempo dictates fetches are cracked quite early, and topdecking burn is still just as vital for us into the midgame when this effect is already exhaused - if you want any deckthinning at all.
I do think the deck might be a bit of a better choice in a fractured metagame. If you have all 2 of a kinds in your board to cover the spread, this plus MJet and even 2 x Browbeat is a decent way to improve you odds of finding your tech.
magicianofthought : Price of Progress for 3? It deals damage in multiples of 2. Do you mean 3 nonbasics in play?
I'm persevering with the white splash ATM. Tempest of Light seems like nessesary tech for some Solitaire (Enchantress) decks emerging in my local meta. I can confirm Wasteland is a far bigger pain in the neck than before I swiched over from monoR.
NEW TECH!!! I've been testing Shahrazad on MWS and it can be both the bomb AND a total roflfest. It has been especially strong vs combodecks, I suggest ppl try it out for a few laughs, and I'd love some more feedback before I go shelling out $100's for a set....
incidently, the deck doesn't realy need any of these expensive rares, checkitout
(someone wanted worms?)
Will You Miss Me When You're Sober - Deborah Conway
Iron Man - Black Sabbath
I'm Not Here - Radiohead
Tears In Heaven - Eric Clapton
Danny Boy - Traditional
His Fathers Eyes - George Micheal
Wuthering Heights - Kate Bush
One - Metallica
many many more, ex music journo here. Edits forthcoming.
What are you on about?