I don't need convincing that Vial is a powerful card, I've played with it for many years. I just wanted to bring up for discussion an alternate build for the tribe that my own experience has shown to have strengths. This type of disruption build suits my playstyle better, as it may for others. Certainly we have room in the thread to talk about different angles the deck can take.
Regarding Spyglass, I'm interested to see what your testing reveals as I have been having the same debate about it vs needle. The extra info it provides is tantalizing, especially against Tron. I don't currently have either in my board, but I think with the Jace unbanning I will probably stick with a few needles because it only costs 1 and I will so often know that I am naming Jace.
Tring to win by keeping in check your opponent and then peel off a big threat is a possibility, but that is not anywhere synergyc, nor on curve, and will cause you to increase the number of lands, reduce the number of spirits and abuse of our sinergies leff requently. Oh and you'll have a number of functional mulligans because of the big spells. That's my issue with non-tempo approaches.
I think we agree on the approach. I consider what I'm doing tempo as well, just without the Vials. I'm ok trading a Mana Leak or Mana Tithe 1-for-1 when my next play is a Spell Queller or flashed-in Rattle Chains that 2-for1's them. I'm not trying to rip a big threat, but to get ahead of the opponent and stay ahead with card advantage. I still think that's synergistic with the game plan of playing all my spells on the opponent's turn and getting them with my tricks.
My last thoughts on Vial: it's a great card and I have played with it a lot for years (even in this deck!). But my personal experience with UW spirits is that the deck plays more the way that I want it to with spells in those slots, and I have had greater success against a wider field with this version of the deck. That could come down mostly to my own strengths as a player more than the cards, I don't know. I love the trickiness that spirits bring to the table and I find that's amplified by including a few choice instants and a couple Snapcasters.
My preference for a build with no vial isn't meant as an attack on your build, but just bringing to the table an alternate build that my experience with the tribe has shown to be successful for me.
... I still think we need a cantrip spirit to really break through.
@Kizzel - The reason I found that I wasn't able to close out games was running out of gas. I've solved that problem with the Chart a Course and the Snapcasters. For a while I played around with an Archangel Avacyn or Teferi in the deck, but cards like that are no longer something I want. 5 mana is way too much. I'm just trying to get ahead with Leak/Tithe and stay ahead with Queller/Flash tricks, then refill with Chart a Course.
@StreexGeist I haven't seen Kizzel's list, but I would not call what I'm doing Midrange, I would say I'm tempo, as you describe. My only "4-drop" is Chart a Course.
More on not playing Vial since that's the number one comment I hear from people:
#1 - We're a worse tribe than Merfolk, and now Humans, 2 decks that can showcase Vial at its best. Vial is inherently strong which is why it's so often played... it does powerful things, but I just don't think we're the right tribe for the card with the tools that we have available. We already have cheap threats with flash, and our Spirits have no cantrips built in to refill our hand when we use vial to get ahead. I'd rather leave the mana up to flash in a Rattlechains and have another card in hand rather than a Vial on board.
#2 - There are so many Abrades, K Commands, Stony Silence, and Ancient Grudge in the format right now to combat Lantern and Hollow One that Vial is too easily killed. I guess you could hope that you get Vial up to 3 before they draw their hate so you can flash in a Queller to save it, but that doesn't seem great.
#3 - Vial is one of the worst draws in the format after the first few turns of the game. If there was a useful way to cycle it things would be different, but there's not.
Ultimately I am playing vial-less because this kind of build is more in line with the type of magic that I want to play, but I also think the deck has legit advantages for the reasons stated. I think the best possible spirits build is probably the Bant version Caleb Durward plays that uses Noble Heirarch to power out turn 2 Geist of Saint Traft and then floods the board with CoCo... still no Vial there.
I'm really hoping that Dominaria and Core Set 2019 give us another 2 CMC spirit with some kind of cantrip on it, as that's what I think we're really missing. Until then, I'm playing Chart a Course and Mana Leak.
Sorcery Speed on CaC has been fine since we have lots of evasive creatures and are attacking often. Rule of thumb with it is that you aren't in a rush to fire it off earlier than t4 (unless you have nothing else going on) since you almost always want to hold up some combination of Leak/Tithe/Queller/Rattlechains. When we play everything else on the opponent's turn, we can afford 1U to draw two cards on ours. It's also a card I love to see when I'm topdecking.
If we had a 2 cmc spirit that drew a card I would play that instead. Since we don't have one, CaC is our Silvergill Adept.
We've got 17 targets for Snapcaster, I'd say that's plenty for 2 Snaps.
It's been a while since I posted. I'm still on UW Spirits, and still tooling around with a Vial-less build using counter spells that tries to play as much of its game on the opponent's turn as possible.
Even though I love the card, I finally gave up on Shadow of Doubt. It could blow out games and was a lot of fun to play, but I took them out for 3x Chart a Course and have not looked back. The card is gas, and is an amazing T4 play with Mana Leak held up for the opponent's turn.
After adding the CaC I also decided to fit in 2 Snapcaster Mages. They fit with my flash game plan, and can often flash back a clutch Mana Tithe. It's not a spirit, but it deserves a spot in the deck.
With 4 Opt, 3 CaC, and a curve that tops at 3, I could see going to 20 lands and fitting in another Mana Leak, maybe. Haven't tried it yet.
I've also considered trying out some amount of Vapor Snags in the place of Paths since pathing things when I'm trying to cast Mana Tithes and Mana Leaks seems counter-intuitive, but we all know how essential Path can be in many matchups.
@Grimble: I haven't played my Deadguy deck in a few months, but I was having a lot of success with Hidden Stockpile when it first came out (running with 10 fetches). I agree with all of your assessments of the card. I never tried it with Copter, but I'm intrigued enough that I might sleeve it up and give it a try again. One thing I was doing with it was running Abyssal Persecutor. That dude is no joke, he rumbles with just about anything in modern and wins, and the Stockpiles give you a very reliable sac outlet to get rid of him once he has taken care of business. If you look back a page or two you will see some of my lists.
There's been a lot of debate on that recently in the last few pages. Some people (like myself) don't think we need it and prefer more disruption spells. Others swear by it and would never cut it from the deck.
@StreexGeist: Happy to see you are having good results with your deck! Congrats on living the dream and Shadow of Doubting some opponents into oblivion. Also happy you have seen the light and gone up to 4x Path.
To answer your question: if an opponent has two fetchlands in play it is very hard for you to block both of them unless the opponent misplays. Generally they will fetch, then you respond with your Shadow, and they respond to that with their second fetch. So they get get to fetch once before the Shadow resolves and blocks them from searching.
If they for some reason fetch, hold priority and activate the second fetch before searching and fetch again, then you can Shadow both when priority passes to you. It also works if they fetch and you Shadow them, then they forget about the Shadow effect and try to fetch again later in the turn. Both of these are very unlikely scenarios as they are just incorrect play sequencing so they tend not to happen. I havd had opponents forget about the Shadow effect and try to Traverse later in their turn after having a fetch blocked at the start of the turn... but that's just bad play and also almost never happens.
What decks do make up your meta that you are able to maintain a 75% winrate out of 149 matches? Curious to know what you're playing against most often, as that win% is pretty insane for any deck in any meta.
The biggest thing going for spirits is the defensive nature of the deck. The cards really can protect each other very very well. I think going this path would be the best way to utilize the power of spirits.
You summed up very well what I'm trying to focus on with my build. I was never 100% convinced with Spirits as an aggro build when I was playing it. I found the most success in the games where my tricks were working, but most of those tricks don't really need Vial to work, and are better backed up with disruption spells.
I'm not trying to disrespect those who are dedicated to the aggro plan, the deck definitely has it's strengths. I just think it's missing a few key pieces to make it truly shine in this meta, and I have found more success by pivoting a little bit towards a vial-less build with more disruption.
@StreexGeist Only you can decide about the Vials. I dropped mine for more spells because vial is a completely dead draw beyond turn 2 or 3. I just really don't like the feeling of drawing a vial in the middle of a crucial game when literally anything else would be more helpful.
A friend of mine plays Merfolk and it's so obvious how much better Vial is in that deck than it is in Spirits. We don't have lords like they do, and we don't have Silvergill Adept to keep our hand full.
For the 3rd Shadow I might move the Worship to the board. I see your reasoning for why you have it, but I still don't think you want it main in a tempo build.
I play 2 Kira because I have put a high priority on protecting Spell Quellers that have a card beneath them. I'm trying to control the game and make my opponent's cards worth less than mine.
@StreexGeist: Thanks for all of the thoughts and feedback.
I could talk forever about how great I think Shadow of Doubt is. I am running 3, but seriously considering the 4th copy. Personally, I don't think 2 is enough because you want to see it in your first 2-3 turns for full effect. So many decks these days (I'm specifically thinking of Death's Shadow decks) run greedy mana bases and getting one of their first 3 lands with it can decide the game on the spot. To add insult to injury, you get to draw a card in the process.
The double blue cost hasn't been a problem because of the way I have set up my mana. The deck isn't very white-heavy, so once I have a single white source, I prioritize fetching for Islands. It's possible I should only be running 1 colourless land instead of 2 so I can get the 4th Hallowed Fountain in there.
Here are a few less obvious scenarios where Shadow really shines: If I have multiple in hand I will usually cycle one for the card to make my opponent believe it's safe to search, then get them with the second copy. Against decks that do a lot of searching (Traverse, Ranger, Eldrich Evolution) You can often screw up their whole turn when they don't sequence correctly. For example, opponent doesn't ever expect Shadow game 1, so they start the turn by cracking a fetch. You shadow it so they can't search, and suddenly they can't follow up with a Traverse or similar. They can next turn, but you've really messed up their mana efficiency and time walked them. The biggest advantage of the card right now is really that no one plays it, so no one ever plays around it.
Worst case scenario in game 1 is that It's "UU: Draw a card", and then you board it out. But honestly, most decks at least have fetch lands to get with it.
Regarding Ancestral Visions, I actually would try this card out if I owned a playset. But I don't. It's a little too expensive for my budget at the moment. Holding out for a reprint.
I haven't seen your build in action, but I honestly can't imagine running less than 4 PtE. Even if you're going for a tempo build with the Remands, I think that you want 4 Path and then 2 Vapor Snag as removal spells 5 and 6.
I've been trying out something like that after finding the vial version of the deck underwhelming. Merfolk and Death & Taxes just Vial so much better than we do, so why bother trying to force it? Here's what I'm working with:
I went in this direction because I noticed that if I could protect my Spell Quellers, I would probably win the game; and if my Spell Quellers die, my chances of losing go way up. With that in mind, I gave up on Vials and things like Metallic Mimic. I'm content to play a slower game where I sit back for the first few turns and counterspell things or Stone Rain my opponent with Shadow of Doubt (so good!) and then start to slip in Spirits when I have the mana to disrupt my opponent and cast them. I want to flash as much as possible, and put Spell Queller out of reach of removal.
People think Shadow of Doubt is Janky (and it kind of is) but no one expects it. The first time you get someone with it, they will think long and hard every other time they want to fetch. All the following are great on their own, but a single Shadow makes them so much better: Mana Leak, Mana Tithe, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter. I love this card. Death's Shadow hates it since it also screws up their Traverse and Ranger of Eos.
The 4 cards I see as flexible in the main are the 3x Mana Tithe and the Relic. They're all good when they're good, but it's possible I want a 5th removal spell (1 Condemn main?) and/or something like Serum Visions in these spots. I'm still testing.
Sideboard is still very much up in the air.
The deck isn't perfect, but I'm winning more with it in this meta than I was with the Vial version, and having more fun.
I really like the look of your list, and I'm happy to see someone else playing (and having success with) Hidden Stockpile. I've fallen in love with it myself. I'm finding that opponents don't respect it at the moment, and it ends up costing them when the value lets you take over a game. You're absolutely right that once they do realize it's a problem, it's very hard to remove for most decks. People who don't play it think it's a tokens card, but I think it's lackluster in that deck, while it shines in ours. I recently went up to the full 4 copies (after starting 2x Stockpile 2x Ayli, then moving to 3x Stockpile and 1x Ayli).
I have a couple questions:
Gatekeeper of Malakir is spicy. Can you elaborate a bit on why it's good for you? I've considered it myself, but I never gave it a shot because I decided that at BBB, it might be too hard to cast. I'm guessing it's worth slamming on turn 2 if you have no other play? Or do you find yourself holding it for the kicker effect?
I like seeing Brimaz in lists too. I'm leaning towards slotting one back into my main deck myself. However at 24 lands and with no Gatekeepers to worry about, my deck has an easier time making WW than yours. Is dropping him on curve ever an issue?
How often do you side in your Zealous Persecutions? Partially because of the Hidden Stockpiles leaving me with more tokens, I settled on two in the main and one in the board. It's useful in almost every matchup for blocking blowouts, killing blows, or to mise Affinity/Infect in the early turns.
Went 4-0 at FNM last night with the list I posted above. Was very happy with how the deck performed.
Round 1 - Abzan CoCo Chord (won 2-1)
This was a pretty grindy match that I won on the back of lingering souls tokens and my ability to exile my opponent's threats. He was using Renegade Rallier to bring back things like Goyf, and had some number of Finks. I boarded in my other two Path to Exile, my extra Anguished Unmaking and my Kalitas to deal with it. Felt like a bit of a nonbo to bring in Kalitas with the exile effects, but we were trading a lot in combat and I figured I could get some value there, also at 3/4, Kalitas lined up nice against a lot of his threats. He was also running a number of infinite combos that I needed to watch out for, so I used my discard spells and my Tidehollow Scullers to take away the pieces when I could. Hidden Stockpile came through in a big way keeping Servos on the board to block, and giving me a scry every turn in those long games to keep my draws relevant.
Round 2 - Abzan Midrange (Won 2-0)
Another grindy matchup. I managed to snag Maelstrom Pulse with Inquisition early in both games and ride my spirit and servo tokens to victory. Went up to the full 8 1-mana removal spells from the board to deal with all the Goyf/Flayer/Rallier shenanigans. The lifegain from Shambling Vent after stabilizing kept me in both games, and in game 2 the Scry from Stockpile actually saved me at 4 life the turn before I won by letting me put an Abyssal Persecutor on the bottom while I had a Bob in play.
My manabase felt like the real advantage in this matchup. I took far less damage from fetch/shock lands than he did, and Shambling Vents let me claw my way back up. My removal just lined up so well against all of his threats, too.
Round 3 - Mardu Eldrazi (Won 2-0)
I killed him pretty quickly in game 1 and didn't really get a sense of what he was doing. I saw Hangarback Walkers, Relic of Progenitus, and Ratchet Bomb so I sided in 2 Pithing Needle and 2 Stony Silence... Then saw Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seers. Managed to fight through them with a couple Revolt-activated Fatal Pushes and a Zealous Persecution blocking blowout, stabilizing at 2 life. 2 Shambling Vents brought my life back to a comfortable 6 the next turn (outside smasher range, he was top decking, so smasher bolt was not possible) and I won the turn after that.
Round 4 - BGRW Delerium w/ Death's Shadow
I haven't played against this deck before, but he was doing a lot of the same things as my firs two opponents, like slamming Goyfs and Flayers then bringing them back with Renegade Rallier. My removal lined up too well against that plan and I slowly managed his threats before killing him with spirits/servos both games. Sorin's +1 off the top of the deck won me the first game the turn before he was poised to kill me, letting 4 spirits get in for 8 lifelink.
Some observations after the fact.
- I need to drop Liliana and play a second Sorin. I boarded her out almost every game. With the addition of the Hidden Stockpiles I am now sort of halfway between tokens and midrange and she doesn't fit the script the way she used to (plus it sucks only being able to run 1). Sorin is always a good draw and just wins me games, or helps get me back in them.
- 4x Fatal Push 2x Path to Exile main with 2x Path board felt right last week, but this week I found myself bringing the extra Paths and even Anguished Unmaking in constantly to deal with Renegade Rallier. The Fatal Push were still fine, but it feels bad pushing an attacking Goyf and then seeing it come right back. I was pushing a lot more on my own turn. Push was still insane, just need to figure out the split.
- Hidden Stockpile is amazing against fair decks. People don't respect it game 1, and as an enchantment it's hard to remove in games 2/3. My deck wants to grind, and it fits the script perfectly. It makes Zealous Persecution better, it smooths draws, it gives me a sac outlet for Persecutor... I just love everything it does.
Regarding Spyglass, I'm interested to see what your testing reveals as I have been having the same debate about it vs needle. The extra info it provides is tantalizing, especially against Tron. I don't currently have either in my board, but I think with the Jace unbanning I will probably stick with a few needles because it only costs 1 and I will so often know that I am naming Jace.
I think we agree on the approach. I consider what I'm doing tempo as well, just without the Vials. I'm ok trading a Mana Leak or Mana Tithe 1-for-1 when my next play is a Spell Queller or flashed-in Rattle Chains that 2-for1's them. I'm not trying to rip a big threat, but to get ahead of the opponent and stay ahead with card advantage. I still think that's synergistic with the game plan of playing all my spells on the opponent's turn and getting them with my tricks.
My last thoughts on Vial: it's a great card and I have played with it a lot for years (even in this deck!). But my personal experience with UW spirits is that the deck plays more the way that I want it to with spells in those slots, and I have had greater success against a wider field with this version of the deck. That could come down mostly to my own strengths as a player more than the cards, I don't know. I love the trickiness that spirits bring to the table and I find that's amplified by including a few choice instants and a couple Snapcasters.
My preference for a build with no vial isn't meant as an attack on your build, but just bringing to the table an alternate build that my experience with the tribe has shown to be successful for me.
... I still think we need a cantrip spirit to really break through.
@StreexGeist I haven't seen Kizzel's list, but I would not call what I'm doing Midrange, I would say I'm tempo, as you describe. My only "4-drop" is Chart a Course.
More on not playing Vial since that's the number one comment I hear from people:
#1 - We're a worse tribe than Merfolk, and now Humans, 2 decks that can showcase Vial at its best. Vial is inherently strong which is why it's so often played... it does powerful things, but I just don't think we're the right tribe for the card with the tools that we have available. We already have cheap threats with flash, and our Spirits have no cantrips built in to refill our hand when we use vial to get ahead. I'd rather leave the mana up to flash in a Rattlechains and have another card in hand rather than a Vial on board.
#2 - There are so many Abrades, K Commands, Stony Silence, and Ancient Grudge in the format right now to combat Lantern and Hollow One that Vial is too easily killed. I guess you could hope that you get Vial up to 3 before they draw their hate so you can flash in a Queller to save it, but that doesn't seem great.
#3 - Vial is one of the worst draws in the format after the first few turns of the game. If there was a useful way to cycle it things would be different, but there's not.
Ultimately I am playing vial-less because this kind of build is more in line with the type of magic that I want to play, but I also think the deck has legit advantages for the reasons stated. I think the best possible spirits build is probably the Bant version Caleb Durward plays that uses Noble Heirarch to power out turn 2 Geist of Saint Traft and then floods the board with CoCo... still no Vial there.
I'm really hoping that Dominaria and Core Set 2019 give us another 2 CMC spirit with some kind of cantrip on it, as that's what I think we're really missing. Until then, I'm playing Chart a Course and Mana Leak.
If we had a 2 cmc spirit that drew a card I would play that instead. Since we don't have one, CaC is our Silvergill Adept.
We've got 17 targets for Snapcaster, I'd say that's plenty for 2 Snaps.
Even though I love the card, I finally gave up on Shadow of Doubt. It could blow out games and was a lot of fun to play, but I took them out for 3x Chart a Course and have not looked back. The card is gas, and is an amazing T4 play with Mana Leak held up for the opponent's turn.
After adding the CaC I also decided to fit in 2 Snapcaster Mages. They fit with my flash game plan, and can often flash back a clutch Mana Tithe. It's not a spirit, but it deserves a spot in the deck.
With 4 Opt, 3 CaC, and a curve that tops at 3, I could see going to 20 lands and fitting in another Mana Leak, maybe. Haven't tried it yet.
I've also considered trying out some amount of Vapor Snags in the place of Paths since pathing things when I'm trying to cast Mana Tithes and Mana Leaks seems counter-intuitive, but we all know how essential Path can be in many matchups.
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Rattlechains
4x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
3x Drogskol Captain
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Geist of Saint Traft
Instants (14)
4x Opt
4x Path to Exile
3x Mana Leak
3x Mana Tithe
3x Chart a Course
Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Plains
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Condemn
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Stony Silence
2x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Worship
Take a read backwards and see what you think.
To answer your question: if an opponent has two fetchlands in play it is very hard for you to block both of them unless the opponent misplays. Generally they will fetch, then you respond with your Shadow, and they respond to that with their second fetch. So they get get to fetch once before the Shadow resolves and blocks them from searching.
If they for some reason fetch, hold priority and activate the second fetch before searching and fetch again, then you can Shadow both when priority passes to you. It also works if they fetch and you Shadow them, then they forget about the Shadow effect and try to fetch again later in the turn. Both of these are very unlikely scenarios as they are just incorrect play sequencing so they tend not to happen. I havd had opponents forget about the Shadow effect and try to Traverse later in their turn after having a fetch blocked at the start of the turn... but that's just bad play and also almost never happens.
You summed up very well what I'm trying to focus on with my build. I was never 100% convinced with Spirits as an aggro build when I was playing it. I found the most success in the games where my tricks were working, but most of those tricks don't really need Vial to work, and are better backed up with disruption spells.
I'm not trying to disrespect those who are dedicated to the aggro plan, the deck definitely has it's strengths. I just think it's missing a few key pieces to make it truly shine in this meta, and I have found more success by pivoting a little bit towards a vial-less build with more disruption.
A friend of mine plays Merfolk and it's so obvious how much better Vial is in that deck than it is in Spirits. We don't have lords like they do, and we don't have Silvergill Adept to keep our hand full.
For the 3rd Shadow I might move the Worship to the board. I see your reasoning for why you have it, but I still don't think you want it main in a tempo build.
I play 2 Kira because I have put a high priority on protecting Spell Quellers that have a card beneath them. I'm trying to control the game and make my opponent's cards worth less than mine.
I could talk forever about how great I think Shadow of Doubt is. I am running 3, but seriously considering the 4th copy. Personally, I don't think 2 is enough because you want to see it in your first 2-3 turns for full effect. So many decks these days (I'm specifically thinking of Death's Shadow decks) run greedy mana bases and getting one of their first 3 lands with it can decide the game on the spot. To add insult to injury, you get to draw a card in the process.
The double blue cost hasn't been a problem because of the way I have set up my mana. The deck isn't very white-heavy, so once I have a single white source, I prioritize fetching for Islands. It's possible I should only be running 1 colourless land instead of 2 so I can get the 4th Hallowed Fountain in there.
Here are a few less obvious scenarios where Shadow really shines: If I have multiple in hand I will usually cycle one for the card to make my opponent believe it's safe to search, then get them with the second copy. Against decks that do a lot of searching (Traverse, Ranger, Eldrich Evolution) You can often screw up their whole turn when they don't sequence correctly. For example, opponent doesn't ever expect Shadow game 1, so they start the turn by cracking a fetch. You shadow it so they can't search, and suddenly they can't follow up with a Traverse or similar. They can next turn, but you've really messed up their mana efficiency and time walked them. The biggest advantage of the card right now is really that no one plays it, so no one ever plays around it.
Worst case scenario in game 1 is that It's "UU: Draw a card", and then you board it out. But honestly, most decks at least have fetch lands to get with it.
Regarding Ancestral Visions, I actually would try this card out if I owned a playset. But I don't. It's a little too expensive for my budget at the moment. Holding out for a reprint.
I haven't seen your build in action, but I honestly can't imagine running less than 4 PtE. Even if you're going for a tempo build with the Remands, I think that you want 4 Path and then 2 Vapor Snag as removal spells 5 and 6.
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Rattlechains
4x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
4x Drogskol Captain
2x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Archangel Avacyn
Instants (14)
4x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
3x Shadow of Doubt
3x Mana Tithe
1x Relic of Progenitus
Land (22)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Island
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Polluted Delta
2x Plains
1x Marsh Flats
1x Moorland Haunt
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Condemn
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Pithing Needle
2x Azorius Charm
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Ghost Quarter
I went in this direction because I noticed that if I could protect my Spell Quellers, I would probably win the game; and if my Spell Quellers die, my chances of losing go way up. With that in mind, I gave up on Vials and things like Metallic Mimic. I'm content to play a slower game where I sit back for the first few turns and counterspell things or Stone Rain my opponent with Shadow of Doubt (so good!) and then start to slip in Spirits when I have the mana to disrupt my opponent and cast them. I want to flash as much as possible, and put Spell Queller out of reach of removal.
People think Shadow of Doubt is Janky (and it kind of is) but no one expects it. The first time you get someone with it, they will think long and hard every other time they want to fetch. All the following are great on their own, but a single Shadow makes them so much better: Mana Leak, Mana Tithe, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter. I love this card. Death's Shadow hates it since it also screws up their Traverse and Ranger of Eos.
The 4 cards I see as flexible in the main are the 3x Mana Tithe and the Relic. They're all good when they're good, but it's possible I want a 5th removal spell (1 Condemn main?) and/or something like Serum Visions in these spots. I'm still testing.
Sideboard is still very much up in the air.
The deck isn't perfect, but I'm winning more with it in this meta than I was with the Vial version, and having more fun.
I really like the look of your list, and I'm happy to see someone else playing (and having success with) Hidden Stockpile. I've fallen in love with it myself. I'm finding that opponents don't respect it at the moment, and it ends up costing them when the value lets you take over a game. You're absolutely right that once they do realize it's a problem, it's very hard to remove for most decks. People who don't play it think it's a tokens card, but I think it's lackluster in that deck, while it shines in ours. I recently went up to the full 4 copies (after starting 2x Stockpile 2x Ayli, then moving to 3x Stockpile and 1x Ayli).
I have a couple questions:
Gatekeeper of Malakir is spicy. Can you elaborate a bit on why it's good for you? I've considered it myself, but I never gave it a shot because I decided that at BBB, it might be too hard to cast. I'm guessing it's worth slamming on turn 2 if you have no other play? Or do you find yourself holding it for the kicker effect?
I like seeing Brimaz in lists too. I'm leaning towards slotting one back into my main deck myself. However at 24 lands and with no Gatekeepers to worry about, my deck has an easier time making WW than yours. Is dropping him on curve ever an issue?
How often do you side in your Zealous Persecutions? Partially because of the Hidden Stockpiles leaving me with more tokens, I settled on two in the main and one in the board. It's useful in almost every matchup for blocking blowouts, killing blows, or to mise Affinity/Infect in the early turns.
Round 1 - Abzan CoCo Chord (won 2-1)
This was a pretty grindy match that I won on the back of lingering souls tokens and my ability to exile my opponent's threats. He was using Renegade Rallier to bring back things like Goyf, and had some number of Finks. I boarded in my other two Path to Exile, my extra Anguished Unmaking and my Kalitas to deal with it. Felt like a bit of a nonbo to bring in Kalitas with the exile effects, but we were trading a lot in combat and I figured I could get some value there, also at 3/4, Kalitas lined up nice against a lot of his threats. He was also running a number of infinite combos that I needed to watch out for, so I used my discard spells and my Tidehollow Scullers to take away the pieces when I could. Hidden Stockpile came through in a big way keeping Servos on the board to block, and giving me a scry every turn in those long games to keep my draws relevant.
Round 2 - Abzan Midrange (Won 2-0)
Another grindy matchup. I managed to snag Maelstrom Pulse with Inquisition early in both games and ride my spirit and servo tokens to victory. Went up to the full 8 1-mana removal spells from the board to deal with all the Goyf/Flayer/Rallier shenanigans. The lifegain from Shambling Vent after stabilizing kept me in both games, and in game 2 the Scry from Stockpile actually saved me at 4 life the turn before I won by letting me put an Abyssal Persecutor on the bottom while I had a Bob in play.
My manabase felt like the real advantage in this matchup. I took far less damage from fetch/shock lands than he did, and Shambling Vents let me claw my way back up. My removal just lined up so well against all of his threats, too.
Round 3 - Mardu Eldrazi (Won 2-0)
I killed him pretty quickly in game 1 and didn't really get a sense of what he was doing. I saw Hangarback Walkers, Relic of Progenitus, and Ratchet Bomb so I sided in 2 Pithing Needle and 2 Stony Silence... Then saw Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seers. Managed to fight through them with a couple Revolt-activated Fatal Pushes and a Zealous Persecution blocking blowout, stabilizing at 2 life. 2 Shambling Vents brought my life back to a comfortable 6 the next turn (outside smasher range, he was top decking, so smasher bolt was not possible) and I won the turn after that.
Round 4 - BGRW Delerium w/ Death's Shadow
I haven't played against this deck before, but he was doing a lot of the same things as my firs two opponents, like slamming Goyfs and Flayers then bringing them back with Renegade Rallier. My removal lined up too well against that plan and I slowly managed his threats before killing him with spirits/servos both games. Sorin's +1 off the top of the deck won me the first game the turn before he was poised to kill me, letting 4 spirits get in for 8 lifelink.
Some observations after the fact.
- I need to drop Liliana and play a second Sorin. I boarded her out almost every game. With the addition of the Hidden Stockpiles I am now sort of halfway between tokens and midrange and she doesn't fit the script the way she used to (plus it sucks only being able to run 1). Sorin is always a good draw and just wins me games, or helps get me back in them.
- 4x Fatal Push 2x Path to Exile main with 2x Path board felt right last week, but this week I found myself bringing the extra Paths and even Anguished Unmaking in constantly to deal with Renegade Rallier. The Fatal Push were still fine, but it feels bad pushing an attacking Goyf and then seeing it come right back. I was pushing a lot more on my own turn. Push was still insane, just need to figure out the split.
- Hidden Stockpile is amazing against fair decks. People don't respect it game 1, and as an enchantment it's hard to remove in games 2/3. My deck wants to grind, and it fits the script perfectly. It makes Zealous Persecution better, it smooths draws, it gives me a sac outlet for Persecutor... I just love everything it does.