I feel it's completely legit to hate Liliana for killing someone that's going to kill her. The only reason people want to kill her is because she's a sadistic mass murderer (that somehow never faces retribution for her actions). Saying she's "just defending herself" is like saying Palaptine was "just defending himself" from Kit Fisto, or Frieza "was just defending himself" from poor little Krillin. Villains don't get to have that excuse.
Nope. But her story is, admittedly interesting. Lilliana is dealing with the absolute worst beings in the Multiverse, with a lethal artifact. It's one of the most tense stories right now because she really could fail, in any number of unimagined ways. And for some reason, I'm actually a bit scared for her.
But I love angels so IDK.
Her story has no tension since she always gets off Scott free. Garruk ultimately couldn't get his justice because wizards got cold feet with the whole Triumph of Ferocity fiasco, and has now been turned into a social darwinist, while Liliana gets a slap on the wrist to continue doing whatever it is she does. She sabotages Jace and Kallist's friendship and is directly responsible for poor Kallist's death, and what happens? She gets away again with a warning instead of her brain being turned to jelly.
This is why Ob Nixilis is the superior monoblack character. Wizards doesn't forget that he's a villain deserving of ANYTHING bad that happens to him, and doesn't try to make us feel sympathy for an unsympathetic character. And that's okay. Ob Nixilis has to face very real consequences for his actions instead of "oops, this super powerful artifact is now stuck to me! oh woe is me!" and when he pisses off people (Nahiri), he has to face retribution. Completely superior character.
I don't feel scared for Liliana; I feel scared for any character that gets within a plane of her. The character that finally plunges a sword through her will be a character I like for all time. I'm just sorry that won't be Garruk.
Yeah, I'm in agreement here. Of course I'm pretty much WG myself so I'm sure it's in my nature to hate much of black. Strangely Black is my 3rd favorite color but I wonder if that's more mechanics rather than personality. Black's philosophy of ambition and doing "whatever it takes" I think is often commendable but most take it beyond a line I am comfortable with. lol
Wizards currently features Lili as a protagonist, and as with most protagonists in current storytelling,she usually 'wins' at the end of the day. I personally believe that with all she's done she will not be capable of a 'heel face turn' but may end up becoming an ally to other PW's against threats larger and more twisted than herself that pose a threat to her. Such as her broker Bolas perhaps?
I personally found Vryn fascinating but partially because I am curious to see how colours other than white and Blue would be represented. The Rebels could be U/R maybe. I find that the sphinx is fine for mono blue but if not that then Esper, cuz I feel like even though Alhamarret profited from his role as arbitrator, he still felt the constant equilibrium between both sides was in fact what was best for society as a whole.
I'm not a Lili fan so this wasn't my favorite article but I kinda expected to want to obliterate most of the "most Evulz" characters we met. I find it fascinating that Bolas brokered the deals between Lili and her demons, although I am equally confused why he didn't bind her to himself considering his fondness for using other walkers to pursue his ambitions. I think the article was trying to show the slippery slope people face when they try to accomplish good through clearly evil methods. But there I go, I got a lot of W in me compared to the rest of the colors in my character so I'm clearly biased. I am hoping very much that The Raven Man ends up as a walker although I'm a little bit confused as the story implies his defeat @ the hands of Lili but not his death. Yet others in this thread seem to imply that he is in fact dead or at least can never return. This makes me sad as I'm caught up in the enigma of who the Raven Man actually is. I hope they don't make a character card, I want him to be a walker!
I know I said somewhere that I didn't think he meant it literally but from a storytelling perspective. It's interesting to know that they were actually thinking of literally shifting the multiverse around. I can just imagine the rage over that.
Your absolutely right. An even better example of this is Equilor which some (on the wiki at least) have speculated supports a theory that Dominaria might not have always been the center of the Multiverse. I dunno if we have the evidence to support this theory yet but I would not be surprised if the nexus rotated eventually to another plane, after all, Dominaria has always been the Multiverse's center. I remember Invasion, I enjoyed Dominaria, but even if it were no longer to be the multiverse's center we could still revisit and have adventures there.
EDIT: Planes are created and fade overtime, it's gonna happen eventually....
We are done with the arguing now. When the new story comes out on Wednesday, I will create a new thread for discussing Uncharted Realms and then lock this thread. We'll make a clean break with a fresh new thread, and hopefully we can leave the fighting and emotional baggage in here.
Lolz! I think maybe you should wait til all five of these Origin articles comes out cuzz I have a gut feeling each one is gonna be greeted with Vorthos Infighting and butchering haha!
On a more serious note it's gonna be sad to see this thread go. So many memories, and revelations and happiness and angst stored up in here. It's like a Vorthos Time Capsule. Here's to new Beginnings and seismic endings!
Again. More belittling. No, I don't think you do know more. And again how can you assume so? Knowledge isn't just about knowing facts or figures. Nor can one assume that we are lazy because we inherently disagree. You don't know me nor what I know. What I do know is that it is arrogant to assume one is inherently superior to another, regardless of knowledgable one thinks one is. What I do know is that an intellegent argument does not automatically assume something is faulty or Lazy about one's character just because we disagree.
we have no right to judge Doug for what he does in his personal time. Perhaps he has a family, other hobbies, or a long day of work. It is not within your right to judge him so.
And what if the grand plan they have doesnt "fit in". What if what the outsourced authors did not have the larger story in mind when they wrote the details? You have no right to assume that just because we disagree, that we somehow care less about the story. That is a divisive, underhanded tactic that intends to belittle or label those you disagree with, a poor way to argue. For what it's worth, I think you care and love MTG a lot. I think what you could work on harder is loving and respecting the interest that others have for the game even if their opinions differ than yours. Tantrums and name calling will not get your argument anywhere.
And maybe the waving of the retcon stick so many times this year will mean another 50-80 years of stable, intuitive, and improved MTG story without need of retcons. again faith. We are not thought policing, we are stating beliefs and opinions as respectable as your own.
faith is not knowing the reasons for all things but trusting that those reasons exist. It is patiently awaiting answers while actively pondering what those answers may be personally. It is a deep and abiding trust, not necessarily based on past experiences(that would be knowledge) nor made in full confidence. It is the spirit of optimism, tempered by active and patient questioning. Questioning that does not appoint blame or assume perfect understanding.
Never thought I'd see the day when people would defend blatant retconning of established material. Is canon history too hard to look back to? Lazy writing for lazy readers.
Why should anyone care when things have no stability.
I understand the positives about stability but your derogatory statements towards people who disagree with you is blatantly ignorant. You refuse to look at the opposing view or at least treat those of that opinion respectfully. If there are retcons then perhaps there are reasons for such so as to improve the story. You're calling people like me "lazy" is lazy itself for you refuse the mental exercise of at least considering those of the oppositionary view. Our concerns are just as valid. There needs to be greater conciliation or at least understanding for true debate. We all enjoy the game and your opinion is not suddenly better for having enjoyed it longer.
Yeah, I'm in agreement here. Of course I'm pretty much WG myself so I'm sure it's in my nature to hate much of black. Strangely Black is my 3rd favorite color but I wonder if that's more mechanics rather than personality. Black's philosophy of ambition and doing "whatever it takes" I think is often commendable but most take it beyond a line I am comfortable with. lol
Wizards currently features Lili as a protagonist, and as with most protagonists in current storytelling,she usually 'wins' at the end of the day. I personally believe that with all she's done she will not be capable of a 'heel face turn' but may end up becoming an ally to other PW's against threats larger and more twisted than herself that pose a threat to her. Such as her broker Bolas perhaps?
One can dream....
Your absolutely right. An even better example of this is Equilor which some (on the wiki at least) have speculated supports a theory that Dominaria might not have always been the center of the Multiverse. I dunno if we have the evidence to support this theory yet but I would not be surprised if the nexus rotated eventually to another plane, after all, Dominaria has always been the Multiverse's center. I remember Invasion, I enjoyed Dominaria, but even if it were no longer to be the multiverse's center we could still revisit and have adventures there.
EDIT: Planes are created and fade overtime, it's gonna happen eventually....
Lolz! I think maybe you should wait til all five of these Origin articles comes out cuzz I have a gut feeling each one is gonna be greeted with Vorthos Infighting and butchering
On a more serious note it's gonna be sad to see this thread go. So many memories, and revelations and happiness and angst stored up in here. It's like a Vorthos Time Capsule. Here's to new Beginnings and seismic endings!
Fist-bump received. Always fun to spar.
Understood
I understand the positives about stability but your derogatory statements towards people who disagree with you is blatantly ignorant. You refuse to look at the opposing view or at least treat those of that opinion respectfully. If there are retcons then perhaps there are reasons for such so as to improve the story. You're calling people like me "lazy" is lazy itself for you refuse the mental exercise of at least considering those of the oppositionary view. Our concerns are just as valid. There needs to be greater conciliation or at least understanding for true debate. We all enjoy the game and your opinion is not suddenly better for having enjoyed it longer.