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  • 1

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Didn't they say that they were completing the MDFC land cycle in Kaldheim? Would that mean that there isn't another rare land cycle? If that's the case we can maybe guess what color some gods will be if they correspond with the remaining lands waiting to be printed. If I'm not mistaken we are missing Azorius, Golgari, Rakdos and Simic combinations.

    Or the lands may not correspond but if that's the case and there isn't another cycle then I would assume the gods would be monocolor. If they are multicolor I would assume there would have to be corresponding duals to help cast them and play their themes in limited.


    Not sure tbh. I admit that I'm kinda hoping the gods aren't merely mono-colour as we have plenty of mono-coloured gods as it is.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 2

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.


    Vivien was my favourite planeswalker before Ikoria (just a little info for anyone thinking that there is an agenda behind my hate for Kaya).
    Vivien may look like a mary sue because she has too a super duper special power that help her out a lot. The difference is that her power isn't her but it's an item, if you take away her arkbow she's almost nothing (and she can't make another one. Not can anyone else); also she paid a high price for that power.
    But after Ikoria i hate her too. Actually i don't hate her, i just find her the cringiest thing ever made. I could handle an eco-terrorist extremist... but you have to write it in a good and credible way. What she said about Ikoria looked like the rambling of a vegan emo teenager who never met another real person in his life. If you wanna advocate animal's rights, ok. If you wanna condemn killing animals even for eating, you may sound a little dumb related to some fantasy planes, but ok i guess. If you condemn people just fightning for their own survival, to not get eaten... that's beyond dumb. That's a level of not being a credible character that shouldn't even be possible.


    Yeah, she's a lot more approachable in the Ikoria novel.

    @Ilovesaprolings, I know for certain that you've been consistently proactive in the past at standing up against not only racism on this here site, but also sexism and LGBTQ2S+phobia, so TBH, I'm not really all that suspicious of your own criticisms of Kaya as I am suspicious of the critiques given by a few of the other users on here. That is of course not to say that such would be impossible, and I certainly ain't perfect in these kinda things either.

    What I do know is that some of the critics and post-'likers' on our thread do indeed have a pattern of attacking WotC' efforts in making the game more inclusive, either in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality or, in the case of some users, all of the above and/or more.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 1

    posted a message on KHM- Kaldheim story and flavor
    And again, we know next to nothing about the story yet.


    Feel free to contend an argument authentically Tiro, but please do so through reason, and by carefully weighing not only the 'bad', but also the 'good'.

    There is so much that is good re: Kaya, and even more good to look forward to in Kaldheim.

    No one is forcing you to change your mind, but should you go on another hateful attack as you previously did swinging into this thread, you will likely be reported for flaming.

    I trust that you are familiar with that process.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.


    Believe what you wish.

    How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.

    Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.

    Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards.

    We as a MtG community have to change.
    Actually, my very first post in this thread criticized planeswalkers as a whole, not specifically Kaya, and I called all of them Mary Sues. So again, you're clearly assuming what you want about my posts.


    But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".

    Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 2

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.


    Believe what you wish.

    How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.

    Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.

    Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards that are detrimental to women and People of Colour.

    We as a MtG community have to change.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 1

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.


    Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.

    *checks old thread*

    Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
    check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.

    But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.

    For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.


    Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
    Two can play at this game!

    Here you are!

    Quote from Urabrask »
    The art also gives as a few tidbits.

    -Wondering if the Ulamog thing in the swamp will be a statue, or an offspring, that is now dormant.
    -The angel is using some of Kozilek bismuth on her weapon.
    -Could the ruin in the sky be another look at Emeria?
    -Seagate more or less rebuild.

    What I'm wondering is, how much of the Roil will be left on Zendikar, after the Eldrazi are gone. I also think it is strange that we got Jace her, I know the canon status of the two Ravnica novels is questionable, but I thought we would see him on Vryn and Kiora instead in this set, the fill out the native trio. Regardless it is nice to see "adventure" Jace, as a contrast to his last two visits to the plane.
    I also expected Jace to be heading to Vryn and Kiora to be here, using Thassa's Bident to rebuild the seas and coastal regions of Zendikar. She headed back to Zendikar after War of the Spark as well.

    I admire Adventure Jace regardless, giving me those Ixalan vibes I loved. But I do feel Kiora should have been here instead, despite Jace being my favorite character.

    The remnants of Ulamog after being blown apart with moss and vegetation growth is pretty cool. Future generations may mistake it for a statue of a god, but it was once living.


    Two indeed can play but I wish for all to examine the evidence. Did Tiro's initial reaction to seeing Jace in the packaging reflect a frustration that planeswalkers were too prominent in the game and overshadowing planebound creatures?

    Jace or Kiora, it doesn't matter. You have one standard for the kinds of planeswalkers that you like and that you enjoy seeing in the game, and an altogether different standard for those planeswalkers that you don't care about.

    One doesn't have to be an intentional and raging misogynist or racist to enable, or normalize, either systemic racism or sexism.

    Intent doesn't matter, but having two clearly different standards or expectations for the kinds of characters that one likes, or doesn't like does actually matter quite a bit.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 1

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist

    I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)

    capitalist noun
    Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
    1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
    industrial capitalists
    broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
    Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
    2: a person who favors capitalism

    Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.

    Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.

    The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.

    In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 1

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
    I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.


    Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.

    *checks old thread*

    Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 2

    posted a message on KHM- Kaldheim story and flavor
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    Here's the Theros story: There is a vaguely warm world that you won't get to see, because Planeswalkers arrive to overshadow all its characters, including its gods, so it ends up being a snowy backdrop for how Elspeth is a better mage than any others, because she has a Spark. You know, that thing that confers no inherent advantage other than to travel, but here she is, breaking the metaphysical rules again, because Planeswalkers. After you're convinced she matters more than Theros, we'll be on to Tarkir/Ikoria.
    It won't be a snowy backdrop if it's a warm world. Glad you got the gist of it though.


    Which is what exactly?
    I could be wrong but I don't think @Mullerornis's response was given in support of your overall argument.

    Why the negativity mate? You have a new Thassa, another Jace, Arixmethes, several new sea monsters, some of whom are legendary.

    Why not celebrate Kaya?
    Oh I love the game, many amazing cards in the last few years, this year included - it's the lore I think is in serious need of attention, with the first promising step being the return of weekly story articles written by the in-house creative team. I think the community in general is still reeling from Nic Kelman, War of the Spark, the idea that original Ravnica characters were killed off or displaced in favor of Planeswalkers (and the grave overall errors that entire series introduced to the lore) and Kaya breaking fundamental planeswalking rules just to shove Rat into the story (I don't find Jiang and his dog to be a break, for the record - but Kaya, I didn't like). My issue is a Vorthos lore concern, not one with the game itself. Theros Beyond Death, the new Jace card, Arixmethes and Sea monsters are all the reason I love this game (don't forget Brinelin) but those are the cards, I think a lot of people in the Kaldheim Rumor Mill thread are showing apprehension about Kaya showing up just to kill off some newly introduced character on our first visit to this plane, which is lame if true, because I personally find Legends to be part of a plane's identity, and I am not fond of them dying in place of Planeswalkers all the time, like Avacyn for example. They shouldn't be killed just to make a PW look like a badass. That said I am glad they left Heliod. Killing him would have ruined Theros. His meddling and the tension he brings is amusing.


    Characters need to be able to die. I only regret that War of the Spark didn't kill more known characters. High stakes in storytelling is important, where death, sacrifice and loss means something.

    Kaya is a ghost assassin. That's her schtick. If she killed off characters that were known and beloved the critics would then express umbrage over that.

    As strange of a concept as it may seem, other people have their own things that they love about the game.

    It was a treat during our return to Theros to read every Tiro rush of excitement for the things that everyone knows Tiro loves.

    We're not asking for much. Just a little reciprocity would be nice.

    It's perfectly ok to critique story-telling in a measured, but authentic way; examining what one liked and didn't like so much in a forum of discussion and debate.

    But we literally have next to zero info regarding Kaldheim's story, so we really don't know how much of Forsaken's mishaps will still hold true, and regardless, none of these concerns were adequately expressed in the previous tirade on this particular thread.

    It just read as a de-legitimation of Kaya.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 1

    posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    We also have nor idea as to how WotC intends to use the negative feedback from the War of the Spark novels.

    We have one book where Kaya demonstrates this possession power, and to be fair, I don't think the fact that Kaya has this ability is really the issue. The issue was that WotC was beginning to introduce more exceptions to planeswalker 'rules' than cases that adhered to them, and Kaya's ability appeared to have been a simple plot device to allow the author to transport a character he liked (Rat) to another plane.

    We have no idea how cannon WotC will treat Forsaken.

    Quote from 5colors »
    Ya, Nazi loves Norse stuff and have been trying to "adopt it" like they did the swastika. Met a gal in college who was a Norse Pagan and she had some pretty cool metallic/bismith Norse rune tattoo that she was really considering get rid of since she had been getting accused of being a Nazi and she was afraid of them being deemed a hate symbol soon.

    Quote from Xeruh »
    Er... I have never heard anyone really utter praise for the Obzedat. Tesya? Sure. Ancient ghost bankers? Not so much. That people suddenly seem to care because she killed them reseda honestly suspicious.


    That been my though for a while. Last I check most people were loving the idea of Teysa getting rid of them...which she did.


    I've been an Orzhov player and fan for as long as I've been an active MtG player and I have shed zero metaphorical tears at the Obzedat's true death.
    (I remember trying to play Dimir as a kid and while I innately understood the power of BlackB, the colour Blue U was far too tricksy for me)

    What's frustrating as an Orzhov player and fan is that WB rarely gets to have likeable characters and factions. Sure, Sorin is much beloved, but besides him we are left mostly with characters that pursue B goals with W means.

    Kaya is refreshing because she's not only a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero, but also a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero who does in fact occasionally act on behalf of some greater sense of justice or good.

    If you were to compare how Kaya has been written with that of her targets, Kaya is a more complex and likable character by far. I admit that this is just my subjective opinion, but like, what narrational role did the Obzedat or Brago really serve?

    While I don't wish for the Orzhov guild to realistically collapse should all its debtors be immediately and wholly forgiven, a reformed Orzhov Guild is everything I could have wanted for my guild.

    Settings and characters have to change. While I understand that people may be upset when their particular favorite characters and worlds are no longer what they had imagined them to formerly be, still, without setting changes and character growth, all we'd be left with is the 'same old, same old'.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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