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  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I think MTG overall has done a respectable job of taking the material, making it their own, hitting the more recognizable aspects of the source material while staying true to enough of the deeper cuts to keep those familiar with it satisfied. It’s a fair balance between Kamigawa level delving and the need to be relatable and meet public standards expectations. I won’t fault them for that.


    On that we agree.

    One of the cool things that the packaging kinda hints at is the possibility of seeing again large scale conflict (armies) on a plane, which is nice in my opinion as the last set to really have any huge battles was War of the Spark, and Ikoria to an extent.

    Ikoria's lore had big battles between two opposing assemblages, but as one of the sides was just mind-controlled monsters I'm unsure if it counts.

    Then again, Bolas's army in War of the Spark was also majorly comprised of necor-dominated zombies so I guess Iokoria would qualify just as well.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.


    Believe what you wish.

    How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.

    Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.

    Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards.

    We as a MtG community have to change.
    Actually, my very first post in this thread criticized planeswalkers as a whole, not specifically Kaya, and I called all of them Mary Sues. So again, you're clearly assuming what you want about my posts.


    But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".

    Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.


    Believe what you wish.

    How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.

    Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.

    Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards that are detrimental to women and People of Colour.

    We as a MtG community have to change.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.


    Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.

    *checks old thread*

    Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
    check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.

    But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.

    For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.


    Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
    Two can play at this game!

    Here you are!

    Quote from Urabrask »
    The art also gives as a few tidbits.

    -Wondering if the Ulamog thing in the swamp will be a statue, or an offspring, that is now dormant.
    -The angel is using some of Kozilek bismuth on her weapon.
    -Could the ruin in the sky be another look at Emeria?
    -Seagate more or less rebuild.

    What I'm wondering is, how much of the Roil will be left on Zendikar, after the Eldrazi are gone. I also think it is strange that we got Jace her, I know the canon status of the two Ravnica novels is questionable, but I thought we would see him on Vryn and Kiora instead in this set, the fill out the native trio. Regardless it is nice to see "adventure" Jace, as a contrast to his last two visits to the plane.
    I also expected Jace to be heading to Vryn and Kiora to be here, using Thassa's Bident to rebuild the seas and coastal regions of Zendikar. She headed back to Zendikar after War of the Spark as well.

    I admire Adventure Jace regardless, giving me those Ixalan vibes I loved. But I do feel Kiora should have been here instead, despite Jace being my favorite character.

    The remnants of Ulamog after being blown apart with moss and vegetation growth is pretty cool. Future generations may mistake it for a statue of a god, but it was once living.


    Two indeed can play but I wish for all to examine the evidence. Did Tiro's initial reaction to seeing Jace in the packaging reflect a frustration that planeswalkers were too prominent in the game and overshadowing planebound creatures?

    Jace or Kiora, it doesn't matter. You have one standard for the kinds of planeswalkers that you like and that you enjoy seeing in the game, and an altogether different standard for those planeswalkers that you don't care about.

    One doesn't have to be an intentional and raging misogynist or racist to enable, or normalize, either systemic racism or sexism.

    Intent doesn't matter, but having two clearly different standards or expectations for the kinds of characters that one likes, or doesn't like does actually matter quite a bit.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
    I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.


    Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.

    *checks old thread*

    Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
    check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.

    But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.

    For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.


    Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.


    Not the same argument. Nice try.

    Edit:

    lemme see here if I can get a good photo
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
    I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.


    Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.

    *checks old thread*

    Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist

    I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)

    capitalist noun
    Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
    1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
    industrial capitalists
    broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
    Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
    2: a person who favors capitalism

    Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.

    Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.

    The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.

    In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on What should Kaldheim bring to the table?
    Possible creature types:

    Humans. Dwarves. Elves. Spirits. Gods. Giants. Angels. Elk (but srsly). Trolls? Kraken? Serpents. Dragons. Squirrels. Bears. Werewolves? Elementals. Nightmares? Yeti. Whales. Fish. Faeries?

    Barbarians. Shamans. Warriors. Berserkers? Archers. Scouts. Wizards. Clerics. Knights? Peasants. Nobles. Warlocks? Clerics. Druid? Rogues.

    Amphin. (okay, only in my dreams)
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from Xeruh »
    I’m... kind of confused how Kaya is a “capitalist”, if anything my reading of her is she’s driven by much more personal stakes than how much money she can get. If that was all she wanted she would just accept being the leader of the Orzhov and not really care about keeping the ghosts as slaves.


    I hear ya, the reason why I consider her capitalist is from her bio on the mothership:

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/kaya-ghost-assassin

    "Kaya is a firm believer that life is for the living. The living should make the most of their lives and pursue what they want while they've still got time, and find their own peace before death. If you die with unfinished business, well, that's probably your fault. And if it's not...perhaps she could help you...for a price."


    You're not wrong in saying that she's driven by personal stakes, but I think we might have different interpretations of what it means to be a capitalist. In most of her work, she is (for the most part) very contractional, expecting a high fee for services that, while not as commonly demanded as other more mundane forms of labour, is nevertheless highly sought after by those with 'spiritual' problems *chuckle*. Capitalists do not necessarily have the accumulation of greater and greater wealth as their primary objective, but rather capitalists accept and advocate the utility of market-based systems and principles to distribute both wealth and capital.

    There are of course many different forms of capitalism and different kinds of capitalists. Like the terms "socialist" and "socialism", there exists a considerable amount of scholarly debate over how best to define and categorize all the different strands within, between and beyond these influential meta-ideas, and the infighting among these scholarly communities are often fiercer within an 'ism' than between 'isms'.

    Everything I've read on Kaya suggests to me that she is nominally a capitalist, but you can see in these same works the tensions the character feels when she sees systems such as that of the Orzhov syndicate take what seems to be a few good ideas in principle, but bend and twist them into something quite terrible, terrible for individuals and terrible for the political system at large. All of which demonstrates the tension between Black and White and within BW characters.

    I could be off my rocker here and I completely understand if folx aren't convinced. I'm a Poli Sci grad student and I sometimes get carried away. I could talk with my Uni mates for hours on the subject.

    The world is grey and there are costs and benefits within any 'ism' or its variants.

    Edit: adding a link to Kaya's wiki page just for fun and so that her critics may better come to appreciate the depth to her character.

    https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Kaya

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on KHM- Kaldheim story and flavor
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    Here's the Theros story: There is a vaguely warm world that you won't get to see, because Planeswalkers arrive to overshadow all its characters, including its gods, so it ends up being a snowy backdrop for how Elspeth is a better mage than any others, because she has a Spark. You know, that thing that confers no inherent advantage other than to travel, but here she is, breaking the metaphysical rules again, because Planeswalkers. After you're convinced she matters more than Theros, we'll be on to Tarkir/Ikoria.
    It won't be a snowy backdrop if it's a warm world. Glad you got the gist of it though.


    Which is what exactly?
    I could be wrong but I don't think @Mullerornis's response was given in support of your overall argument.

    Why the negativity mate? You have a new Thassa, another Jace, Arixmethes, several new sea monsters, some of whom are legendary.

    Why not celebrate Kaya?
    Oh I love the game, many amazing cards in the last few years, this year included - it's the lore I think is in serious need of attention, with the first promising step being the return of weekly story articles written by the in-house creative team. I think the community in general is still reeling from Nic Kelman, War of the Spark, the idea that original Ravnica characters were killed off or displaced in favor of Planeswalkers (and the grave overall errors that entire series introduced to the lore) and Kaya breaking fundamental planeswalking rules just to shove Rat into the story (I don't find Jiang and his dog to be a break, for the record - but Kaya, I didn't like). My issue is a Vorthos lore concern, not one with the game itself. Theros Beyond Death, the new Jace card, Arixmethes and Sea monsters are all the reason I love this game (don't forget Brinelin) but those are the cards, I think a lot of people in the Kaldheim Rumor Mill thread are showing apprehension about Kaya showing up just to kill off some newly introduced character on our first visit to this plane, which is lame if true, because I personally find Legends to be part of a plane's identity, and I am not fond of them dying in place of Planeswalkers all the time, like Avacyn for example. They shouldn't be killed just to make a PW look like a badass. That said I am glad they left Heliod. Killing him would have ruined Theros. His meddling and the tension he brings is amusing.


    Characters need to be able to die. I only regret that War of the Spark didn't kill more known characters. High stakes in storytelling is important, where death, sacrifice and loss means something.

    Kaya is a ghost assassin. That's her schtick. If she killed off characters that were known and beloved the critics would then express umbrage over that.

    As strange of a concept as it may seem, other people have their own things that they love about the game.

    It was a treat during our return to Theros to read every Tiro rush of excitement for the things that everyone knows Tiro loves.

    We're not asking for much. Just a little reciprocity would be nice.

    It's perfectly ok to critique story-telling in a measured, but authentic way; examining what one liked and didn't like so much in a forum of discussion and debate.

    But we literally have next to zero info regarding Kaldheim's story, so we really don't know how much of Forsaken's mishaps will still hold true, and regardless, none of these concerns were adequately expressed in the previous tirade on this particular thread.

    It just read as a de-legitimation of Kaya.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    We also have nor idea as to how WotC intends to use the negative feedback from the War of the Spark novels.

    We have one book where Kaya demonstrates this possession power, and to be fair, I don't think the fact that Kaya has this ability is really the issue. The issue was that WotC was beginning to introduce more exceptions to planeswalker 'rules' than cases that adhered to them, and Kaya's ability appeared to have been a simple plot device to allow the author to transport a character he liked (Rat) to another plane.

    We have no idea how cannon WotC will treat Forsaken.

    Quote from 5colors »
    Ya, Nazi loves Norse stuff and have been trying to "adopt it" like they did the swastika. Met a gal in college who was a Norse Pagan and she had some pretty cool metallic/bismith Norse rune tattoo that she was really considering get rid of since she had been getting accused of being a Nazi and she was afraid of them being deemed a hate symbol soon.

    Quote from Xeruh »
    Er... I have never heard anyone really utter praise for the Obzedat. Tesya? Sure. Ancient ghost bankers? Not so much. That people suddenly seem to care because she killed them reseda honestly suspicious.


    That been my though for a while. Last I check most people were loving the idea of Teysa getting rid of them...which she did.


    I've been an Orzhov player and fan for as long as I've been an active MtG player and I have shed zero metaphorical tears at the Obzedat's true death.
    (I remember trying to play Dimir as a kid and while I innately understood the power of BlackB, the colour Blue U was far too tricksy for me)

    What's frustrating as an Orzhov player and fan is that WB rarely gets to have likeable characters and factions. Sure, Sorin is much beloved, but besides him we are left mostly with characters that pursue B goals with W means.

    Kaya is refreshing because she's not only a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero, but also a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero who does in fact occasionally act on behalf of some greater sense of justice or good.

    If you were to compare how Kaya has been written with that of her targets, Kaya is a more complex and likable character by far. I admit that this is just my subjective opinion, but like, what narrational role did the Obzedat or Brago really serve?

    While I don't wish for the Orzhov guild to realistically collapse should all its debtors be immediately and wholly forgiven, a reformed Orzhov Guild is everything I could have wanted for my guild.

    Settings and characters have to change. While I understand that people may be upset when their particular favorite characters and worlds are no longer what they had imagined them to formerly be, still, without setting changes and character growth, all we'd be left with is the 'same old, same old'.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on KHM- Kaldheim story and flavor
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    Here's the Theros story: There is a vaguely warm world that you won't get to see, because Planeswalkers arrive to overshadow all its characters, including its gods, so it ends up being a snowy backdrop for how Elspeth is a better mage than any others, because she has a Spark. You know, that thing that confers no inherent advantage other than to travel, but here she is, breaking the metaphysical rules again, because Planeswalkers. After you're convinced she matters more than Theros, we'll be on to Tarkir/Ikoria.
    It won't be a snowy backdrop if it's a warm world. Glad you got the gist of it though.


    Which is what exactly?
    I could be wrong but I don't think @Mullerornis's response was given in support of your overall argument.

    Why the negativity mate? You have a new Thassa, another Jace, Arixmethes, several new sea monsters, some of whom are legendary.

    Why not celebrate Kaya?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from 5colors »
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.


    Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.


    ^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
    I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.

    Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.

    Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-

    -but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.

    For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?

    WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from 5colors »
    Just a quick question, did anyone else read the Gathering Storm the story where she actually killed the Obzedat?


    I read it, and it's partially why I'm such a Kaya fan. She was a very fun PoV character in the books, and this is from a guy who expected to have more in common with Ral Zarek.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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