Ive been having great success with the deck locally at my store and have gone 3-1 or 3-0-1 for about the last 3 months since ive built it except for one time. Ive been playing against a lot of real decks to. Im changing my build a little but for cinnci this weekend to reflect the larger meta.
Creatures14
4 dark confidant
4 tidehollow sculler
3 gifted aetherborn
3 smugglers copter
Instants and sorceries18
3 inquestion
3 thoughtseize
4 lingering souls
4 path to exile
3 fatal push
1 collective brutality
Planeswalkers5
3 liliana of the veil
2 sorin lord of innistrad
Lands23
4 marsh flats
1 windswept heath
4 concealed courtyard
3 shambling vents
2 godless shrine
2 swamp
1 plains
1 urborg tomb of yagmawth
2 mutavault
3 ghost quarter
Sb is heavily focused on the valakut and tron mu. Eldrazi tron while stil unfavorable has been feeling better lately since they removed ugin and ulamog. It feels like i lose more often then not but it always feels super close like one or two turns away. I agree that hitting them with discard early is our best bet at winning. I think if you can keep them off of tron and force them to play woth fair mana for at least most if the game you will win usually i lose to balista or karn which is what the needles are for. I have been bringing in surgical vs them to hit the cards we almost cant beat. Plan vs valakut is to try to get a halo on valakut or ghost quarter surgical it the rest of the deck after that is not a problem for us. It just becomes a game of keep titan off the feild and win bwfore they find an out for runed halo. Control and grindy match ups im bringing in gideon to try to just out midrange them with walkers.
Looking at the last big tournaments resulted this weekend( overall best deck was titanshift) i think the redguy ale plan is way more appealing, at least as a board plan, unless anyone can think of a way to hate out that deck in w/b. So unless we dig deep and pray for a temple ban we need a plan. My biggest issue with picking up red isnt so much the mana which i think we have the means to support if we go less manland heavy, its trying to find a good two drop that isnt double color like aetherborn. I have found the deck the deck to feel very consistent with my only three drops being liliana and souls. It makes multiple bobs so much better and i think it is generally better to go turn 3 2 drop into a discard spell or removal spell. I still think if you go three colors you keep liliana since you are only bringing in bloodmoon in probably 20-30% of the time. The Mus where you are playing bloodmoon you still have a chance to play around your own bloodmoon. If you cant get it down you still have your copter to cycle it or brutalitys to pitch to, its not goos but at least the basment for it is not unreasonable. Plus most of the matchups you are bringing in bloodmoon lilina is still good in. K command is also probably worth it as a two of for busting artifacts like chalice and for recurring a late game bob. Maybe we take the best of both worlds by playing game one as a w/b deck and giving up our sb to transition into a mardu bloodmoon deck. We would probably have to give up some number of sb slots for fetches but it allows you to play double color cards game1. I dont think its worth it but its worth considering.
Hello, this is my first time posting in here, ive been following it for a while i have just never replied.
I am really excited to see the meta is adapting to the two best decks, however i think a lot of people here are over valuing data. Im not saying we shouldn't use data to prove a point but there is much more involved in the equation then top8 and 32s. For example in pauper when cloud of faries was banned only one deck played it and it was only like 5% of the meta however it was by far the most warping deck in pauper at the time and the best deck in the format.
Most played deck does not equal best deck. Also just because a deck isn't putting up crazy results doesn't mean its not warping the format. I believe that titan shift doing so well is a direct result of eldrazi tron being a tier1 deck. The format is adapting to it which is good but it appers to be doing it by going linear. If however we reach a point in the meta, which this data suggests, where there is a deck that can hate out tron and is in turn hated out by a deck that is hated out by g/b/x and other midrange decks than things are fine. At that point we are in a meta that is in flux which is great it allows a lot decks to exist. I do worry that we may reach a point where tron pushes out every midrange deck that isnt shadow, and in three months we will all be complaining that the format is to linear. However until the format does that its in a pretty great place if the trends from last weekend continue.
I honesty stil think temple is to good and doesn't have a whole lot of draw backs in eldrazi tron. However, if eldrazi tron being in the meta promotes diversity like death shadow does it is fine. Although i honestly don't see how a deck like tron that seems very polarizing in its MUs can do that.
It might be a little cute but Big Game Hunter seems sweet against Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron and it's good with Restoration Angel.
Card seems sweet in our deck especially with the synergies with LOTV and brutality. However i think it may solve a problem that doesn't exist usually i do not have problems with shadow. In eldrazi tron at least from my experiences its the balista and the karn that get you not there creatures which we seem well off to kill assuming there is nothing insane like t2 reshaper into tns into smasher. If your not playing liliana or a walker it's probably a lot better as a way to grind out value.
Round1 vs elsrazi tron
Lost to turn 1 chalice almost came back from this thanks to copter cycling my one mana spells, but endbringer was to much. Game 2 was very close as well but my opponent had t1 collar and turn 3 tns. I almost broke the collar with a disenchant from board but he had another chalice on 1 that i need to smash. It turned into top deck wars with me riding two souls and man lands for a while trading resources but my opponent top decked karn into smasher. Oh well knew elsrazi tron and tron would be our worse matchup and it still feels like its not super lopsided.
Round2 bye
Round3 played bs abzan was a grind fest. I was finally able to break through thanks to a gideon emblem and souls. Copter did work by allowing to sing over a goyf and through his spirits and cycled two lands which was huge. G2 two cluthch zealous persecutions allowed me to win through double souls and lilianas. Gifted Aetherborn got in through a goyf twice and was able to keep a siege rhino back.
Round 4 living end lost game one took a mull to 6 and got stuck with 2 mutavaults and one shock in hand. Couldn't find a fourth land and had to swing in with mutavault just to do anything I eventually had to path my own mutavault to be able to play the game after my opponent went off. Game 2 i had an insane curve that opened with discard and hand hate for the first 4 turns between the scullers and ioks. G3 i got to live the dream of t1 iok into surgical his living end. I kept a one lander and he slowed me down with fulmaitors but he had no pressure on me.
In the last three weeks since playing this build tonight was my first loss i am something like 7-1-2 not including byes. And this has been against a lot of different decks. We definitely have game vs a lot of the top decks atm.
I may look into redguys ale it seems like it will help vs tron while not losing a whole lot vs a lot of other decks if there is a way to keep liliana in the deck. If you are going red guys i think that trying to jam nahiri becomes an option you have emerikul plus bob but if your willing to play the lottery it gives you a very different angle to attack tron and control decks with. Plus the cycling on it is pretty great. Also i think butcher horde may be worth looking into if you want to play young pyromancer. He doesn't net any value but as a 5/4 flyer who can get lifelink he lets you race real well and is kind of hard to kill. K-command as a 2 of is also looking good especially if you don't have lilli to break bridge and be able to get bob back late game. I still think that if liliana is your only double color it is fine you can set up to be mainly black splash white and red for your few off colors. you can also play one of the sorins as well if you want to play red and have a 4 drop walker they are definitely worse than gideon and elspeth but they still get the job done. Lord of innistrad can be a pretty good bad elspeth who can still come down and anthem for souls.
I think eldrazi tron is very unfavorable game 1 like 65-35 ranges although coopter helps a lot with it. I have found that gifted Aetherborn is good in this mu since he can trade tns and amasher and its not like any of creatures will survive a karn ugin or balista anyway. Sb i think you can make it a 40/60-50/50 mu depending on sb. Pitting needle is pretty good imo. I alwyas lose to the balista or the planeswalkers. Ive also considered putting in surgical and trying to get super lucky with the thoughtseize turn1
Oh and i agree sculler has done work for me he is very good into combo decks that we are usually 50/50 to slightly favorable.
As far as gifted goes he is one of those cards like coopter that seem bad on paper when you play them gets good. Against burn they almost need to kill all of our creatures that are not bob. Tidehollow blinks a bolt and artherborn if he ever connects swings the game super far in your favor. Also he feels real great when he crashes into angler and tasigur. He always feels relevant due to the deathtouch and the lifelink lets you play super aggressive with bob or double bob. The only downside with him is he is double black on two which i guess is not that when your only double white is on four
I think you are generally right however i think if you know that the coast is clear turn 2 for bob or thar your opponent has to top deck a kill spell it may be better to play bob on two. Especially against a deck like counter company or affinity so that you can have turn 2 bob into turn 3 copter, discard or keep up spor removal and have a blocker if need be.against decks that are mid range like abzan jund and deathshadow i agree. Although doing this sequence either way into death shadow or jund without discard first is really asking to get two for oned with k command. That is the one downside to playing sculler and coopter you give them the option to two for one you or blow you out. I guess its already a built in two for one with discard get back a dude so its kind of a moot point, but it seems way better when you can use all the modes to good effect. For crewing purposes are you considering cards like mirrion crusader and aetherborn as crew members since they can usually do more attackig on their own if they come down t2? I think 15-16 is the best place to be on that you get diminishing returns for each additional crew member you put in. Going from 14-15 you increase your odds by two percent which is almost unnoticeable. After that you are only increasing your odds by a little more than a single percentage point after that. I think after you hit 15-16 which is pretty easy with mutavaults you are good. Id rather have additional removal or discard then additional creatures especially since there isn't a lot of good crew creatures once we get past bob, tidehollow souls and pack rat. At that point i think you start looking at brimaz and really start looking into going super wide. Atm 11 creatures and 7-8 man lands with 4 souls feels pretty good. I dont think ive ever been in a situation where i cant find a way to crew the copter if i really want to. Atm im debating on if i want my 4th mutavault or my vault of the archangel as my last land.
I just got back from an fnm level event today only got two games in but ive been impressed with the deck in those two games. I was playing
4x dark confidant
4x gifted eitherborn
3x tidehowllow sculler
3x smugglers copter
3x liliana of the veil
2x gideon ally of zendikar
4x iok
2x thoughtseize
4x lingerig souls
1x collective brutality
4x path
3x push
4x marshflats
1x windswept heath
2x godless shrine
4x conccealed courtyard
4x shambling vents
2x mutavault
1x urborg
4x swamp
1x plains
I played vs counters company and affinity. I don't think affinity is bad but playing copter is super good vs them. It kills or trades with all their creatures and blocks the etched champion. It was funny playing a colored deck that had colorless blockers in mutavault and copter. It also was absurdly good being able to cycle discard and lands late game for action and won me the game. I at one point had bob in play flipping lands and then crew the copter to cycle them. It makes playing 23 lands feel way less like a flood and it makes flipping lands with bob when you need action way better. As a midrange deck i think copter fixes a lot of problems it helps us have a late game card advantage engine. I thought copter was bad it seems bad on paper since you can't play it on two and one of our other super good teo drops like bob or tidwhowllow but oh well. Aetherborn also felt very good he let me keep two bobs out and not care about loss of life since two life is higher then my decks avg cmc. Plus he could swing in everyturn so my opponent couldn't try to ride out the bob.
So ive been wrong about copter cards actually very good especially when you have the game locked with liliana. It is like a redraw everyturn after you are hellbent. My only issue is it feels kind of silly if you draw multiple. I am probably going to stay at3 for a while.Feels really good to go t2 copter in t3 souls. It is alittle akward with bob cause they both want to go down t2, but oh well. It makes sculler a loI better. I am still not sold on 4 vwnt 4 vault it may be a meta thing for me though i have a lot of burn at my lgs. I also play test on cocaktrice a lot which is a buggy system where I constantly draw no land or one land openers or 4x of the same card in one game i was wondering if any one else was having the same experiences who play tests on there. I also have been playing with having snapcaster mb. He is definitely strong in the deck but having him makes us very weak to gy hate so i guess its a meta call but being able to have negates and rejections for tron feels good.
For one, I bet I take a lot less damage from my lands than you do.
My manabase differs by
-2 Windswept Heath
-2 Polluted Delta
-1 Watery Grave
-1 Vault of the Archangel
-1 Plains
+4 Mutavault
+2 Shambling Vent
+1 Godless Shrine
+1 Swamp
Gifted Aetherborn sucks. You will probably have to shock yourself to play it on turn 2. That is a complete disaster if it gets killed without gaining life, and even if it gains 2 you're back to where you started. I would rather have 4 Shambling Vent than any Aetherborn. You could even play Kitchen Finks instead. That's not to mention that Aetherborn is simply underpowered in general.
You should definitely try some number of Smuggler's Copter. Even without Mutavault and Tidehollow Sculler, 1-2 Smuggler's Copter is a fantastic addition to the deck.
to have a better shot at beating Burn. I don't think you need the Crusaders to still wreck Death's Shadow.
I changed my mana since my last post to -1 fetch -1 plains for a hallowed fountain and anither shambleming vent. I usually dont have to shock myself to get him out on two since he i have enough fetches to grab basics most times and still have all my colors. I agree that shambling vents is way better than I thought it was and o could see cutting a fetch for number4. I thought we were a midrange deck and wanted as few lands in our deck as possible so we don't draw blanks. I also thought we needed more revolt triggers for push but you really don't. Im honestly suprised you can get away with 4 mutavaults and not have mana issues.
Aetherborn has only been great for me so far he is super good vs zoo and aggro and apart from crusader all of our creatures already get killed by any removal spell in the format. He just forces burn to throw their kill spells at it. Apart from discard i am not sure if we can realistically play around blaze outside of brimaz. Brimaz is probably super good vs burn since he is immune to blaze and is probably a 2 for one. Getting back on topic aetherborn has only impressed me since i played it he trades with everything and the lifelink is way more relevant than it seems at first. Just being at a avg higer life total is a big deal. Plus he is very good on the defense against things like shadow and tasigur.If i cut crusader than i am very convinced that gideon is better in our 4 slot. The other reason That crusader is great is his ability to run through dredges creatures and just get in for 4. Its not great but it plus spuls is a viable way to steal that match.
Im warming up to copter as a way to conbat control and tron since they cant ugin it away and nuking it with karn probably feels real bad. So i may end up doing-1 crusader -1 push for +2 copter. I dont like a 4 of glorifed equipment. Is it worth looking into a sword if mirron crusader is going to stay getting doubl activations seems good and it makes all of our soles way scarrier. The blck white sword makes mirriin crusder a 4/4 who gains 6 life and gets two creatures back.
Another thing i was thinking about was cutting my 4 drop walkers and maybe a crusader and putting in copters and cutting to 20 lands with 4 vents. It makes bob a lot lot better and makes us faster into decks like tron and dredge. We lose a little bit of grinding but we have better fixing. If you are going this way i think cutting crusader for tidehollow makes a lot more sense. Gideon gets me a lot of games but if we are still good into grindy matchups having a lower curve might make us better into aggro and combo plus the copters make silver bullet cards in the sb way better. Also our only double maana are aetherborn and liliana. So playing one or two mutavults is a lot safer. soem people on here are having success with hidden stockpile maybe thats our replacement for 4 mana walkers it is pretty vs tron and its easy to side and good vs grindy matchups. It does take a long time to get going and its really only nuts when you get two so it may just be to dedp and to low impact.
4 darkconfidant
4 gifted aetherborn
3 mirron crusader
3 lotv
2 gideon ally of zendikar/ migt be elspeth still trying to decide on which
4 path
4 push
2 blessed alliance
2 collective brutality
4 lingering souls
2 thoughtseize
4 inquestion of kosilik
4 marsh flats
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
2 godless shrine
1 watery grave
4 concealed courtyard
2 shambling vents
1 vault of the archangel
2 swamps
2 plains
Sb: 1 phyrexian arena
1 celestial purge
2 rest in peace
2 spoils of the vault
3 surgical extraction
4 ceremonius rejection
2 kor fire walker
I can see how elspeth can be good if you are playing mutavault but they seem kind of clunky in a deck that has such strick collor needs you need wb on 2 ww/bb on 3. I know your not playing artherborn so that helps with that issue. Copter is also a lot better when you have man lands to crew it. You are probably near immune to board wipes in that list. I don't think ive ever had an issue keeping gideon alive on the defense as lon as he can keep making 2/2s eventually I usually am abel to resolve a lili bob or souls and take over from their. Having played a couple games with elspeth she is definitely better than lord of innistrad but she hasn't really shinned for me then again i havent drawn her with crusader which is where she really shines. Ive seen a few games where the difference between 1/1 and 2/2 matters. your right though outside of a few matchups its not a big deal but every hit is 1 more damage which adds up over a while. Plus being able to anthem against another person playing souls is great and can also just be a huge swing and bust games wide open as well. I think they honestly occupy similar space with one being more explosive but the other being slightly more powerful. One ticks up to make 1/1s the other makes 2/2 for 0 one can jump a guy the other has a go wide anthem, and can be a 5/5. One has an ult that wins any grindy matchup.What i do like about elspeth is that sudden blast for 10 with crusader when there is no removal in the format thats a real great way to beat dredge. I guess it also can just be gain 5 with aetherborn.
How are you beating burn easy ive played the match up a few times and cant get better than 5/5 granted this was on cockatrice where my opponents drew multiple cracks or i got stuck on 2 lands or mull to 6 1 landers.or when im at 4 with aetherborn in play and my opponent tops charm thats happen more times than i think it should statistically to me. So i may be over compensating for a statisticall anomaly. I feel like the matchup should be super good for me with all the incramental life gain especially after i take out bobs and seize.
I have stumbled onto some money so I should have my deck in a week. I've been playing it on cockatrice and have been keeping a record of matchups and am like 8-6 vs tier and mostly undefeated vs everything else. Of those loses 2 are to burn 2 are to tron and 1 was to death and taxes cant remember the last one right now. My meta atm has boogles and a lot of taking turns so im going for more enchantment hate atm. I have also found surgical helps the uw matchup a lot being able to fizzle a snap mage is really nice and take away their cryptics or paths. I have been having a lot of success in that matchup with arena. Also ive been playing a 2/3 spilt of rip and surgical it feels really weird but i feel like gy is one of our worse matchups where i want more than 4 pieces of gy hate. Its still hard but it feels winnable and until dredge drops out of the meta. Surgical is good into enough combo matchups that I don't see cutting it anytime soon. Plus it has a little bit of game into coco if you can get a lucky discard spell off and take away their combo. I was also wondering how people feel about kor fire walker right now? Is burn that bad that we need to dedicate sb slots to it. I've also been tempted to try impa mischeif in my sb for as a genral answer to cards like av and boogles its weird but it gets around hexproof and shroud.
I have been trying to get some games in with elspeth but since ive put her in my deck I haven't seen her yet. I am looking for ways to improve our dredge and burn matchups and i think she is better than gideon in those situations especially with crusader. I can definitely see a situation where you are top decking against a shadow player into a board where they cant swing into you cause crusader and dropping her means gg. My biggest gripe with her is she only makes 1/1s and her jump is way more situational then gideon being a 5/5. I think her position in the deck is tied real heavily with crusader and how good he is at the time.
Thank you for sharing your results its nice to see the deck can take on major decks and win. I am curious why everyone else seems to play sb that are 1x of everything it seems like that is to inconsistent to work but maybe the copter helps with that. Speaking of which how is the copter in the deck i know a lot of people on here really really like it and I've never play tested it. Is the looting really that worth it in the deck.
I think the two of mirrian crusader is about where you want to bw with him. It feels like when hes bad hes real bad and i find him getting stuck in my hand a lot against decks like zoo and burn and the matchups like abzan and deathshadow one seems sufficient to win the game.
I also have been playing gideon ally of zendikar over elspeth. Have you noticed that the difference between a 1/1 or a 2/2 mattering a lot. Guess she has pretty great synergy with the copter.
Have you played a lot into gy decks i feel like the deck is super weak to gy decks in general and i was wondering if you have found a good way to deal with this outside of jammig your sb with gy hate.
Idk who to ask about this but can we get an updated primer? A lot of information is missing from the current one namely fatal push and all the new creatures that are in the discussion for deck lists.
I played the esper idea today creature base was 4bob 4 aetherborn 4 snapcaster mages. Also cut my ally of zendikar for lord of innistrad to help the color needs of the deck. My only doubles were lilliana and gifted aetherborn. It felt like the mana was a lot more painful with bob. I am usually very greedy with bob and having those basics to find is really great. even with a bunch of quick lands the need to play double black on two hurt a lot and that card works so well with bob and into grindy matchups so he is hard but not immortal to cut.
I also played a traditional list and cut one godless shrine for a watery grave and changed my mana base to give me 7 fetches to tutor for it but i could cut a basic plains for a hallowed fountain to if need be when i test it. I had 4 rejections in the sb. I know we are a deck that usually plays at sorcery speed but the one game i got in vs eldrazi tron it felt pretty great. I cut my mirron crusaders and a collective brutality out for 4 of rejects. It played out how the matchup usually does but being able to sandbag an answer to karn and balista felt great. Its a little akward with liliana but sometimes the right answer is just dont activate lilli. This is only one game but it looks promising so far. I also have a hard time va dredge and am wondering if 4 surgicals is to many in the sb or what an acceptable number is to bring in va other grindy decks. Does anyone havw experience with surgical into deaths shadow. Im thinking i may go 3 surgical 1 relic in sb at some point.
Ive looked into the green splash the main draw to going into green imo is grimflayer who works very well with bob and is great in grindy matchups but playing him makes us weaker to gy hate which for some reason people bring in all the time vs me even though my only gy card is souls. You also get voice and pusle, which are both pretty good but at that point in time you are an old old school abzan dexk that is not playing rhino so you can have bob. I would honestly not even play abrupt decay right now since its so bad into eldrazi and deaths shadow the pulse would be real nice for other lingering souls and walkers though. You also get acess to ooze for gy decks and to help offset bob. You can maybe cut playing a 4 mana walker altogether and be anle to go down to 19-20 lands if you don't mind being a little weaker to bloodmoon and land destruction. I would still play 2 blessed alliance and 2 brutalities just cause they work so well with bob and help us vs burn and zoo which i have found to be very 50/50 matchups while still being good into a lot of other tier decks.
Creatures14
4 dark confidant
4 tidehollow sculler
3 gifted aetherborn
3 smugglers copter
Instants and sorceries18
3 inquestion
3 thoughtseize
4 lingering souls
4 path to exile
3 fatal push
1 collective brutality
Planeswalkers5
3 liliana of the veil
2 sorin lord of innistrad
Lands23
4 marsh flats
1 windswept heath
4 concealed courtyard
3 shambling vents
2 godless shrine
2 swamp
1 plains
1 urborg tomb of yagmawth
2 mutavault
3 ghost quarter
Sb:
3 surgical extraction
2 runed halo
1 fatal push
1 collective brutality
1 disenchant
2 relic of progenius
1 ghost quarter
2 pithing needle
2 gideon ally of zendikar
Sb is heavily focused on the valakut and tron mu. Eldrazi tron while stil unfavorable has been feeling better lately since they removed ugin and ulamog. It feels like i lose more often then not but it always feels super close like one or two turns away. I agree that hitting them with discard early is our best bet at winning. I think if you can keep them off of tron and force them to play woth fair mana for at least most if the game you will win usually i lose to balista or karn which is what the needles are for. I have been bringing in surgical vs them to hit the cards we almost cant beat. Plan vs valakut is to try to get a halo on valakut or ghost quarter surgical it the rest of the deck after that is not a problem for us. It just becomes a game of keep titan off the feild and win bwfore they find an out for runed halo. Control and grindy match ups im bringing in gideon to try to just out midrange them with walkers.
I am really excited to see the meta is adapting to the two best decks, however i think a lot of people here are over valuing data. Im not saying we shouldn't use data to prove a point but there is much more involved in the equation then top8 and 32s. For example in pauper when cloud of faries was banned only one deck played it and it was only like 5% of the meta however it was by far the most warping deck in pauper at the time and the best deck in the format.
Most played deck does not equal best deck. Also just because a deck isn't putting up crazy results doesn't mean its not warping the format. I believe that titan shift doing so well is a direct result of eldrazi tron being a tier1 deck. The format is adapting to it which is good but it appers to be doing it by going linear. If however we reach a point in the meta, which this data suggests, where there is a deck that can hate out tron and is in turn hated out by a deck that is hated out by g/b/x and other midrange decks than things are fine. At that point we are in a meta that is in flux which is great it allows a lot decks to exist. I do worry that we may reach a point where tron pushes out every midrange deck that isnt shadow, and in three months we will all be complaining that the format is to linear. However until the format does that its in a pretty great place if the trends from last weekend continue.
I honesty stil think temple is to good and doesn't have a whole lot of draw backs in eldrazi tron. However, if eldrazi tron being in the meta promotes diversity like death shadow does it is fine. Although i honestly don't see how a deck like tron that seems very polarizing in its MUs can do that.
Card seems sweet in our deck especially with the synergies with LOTV and brutality. However i think it may solve a problem that doesn't exist usually i do not have problems with shadow. In eldrazi tron at least from my experiences its the balista and the karn that get you not there creatures which we seem well off to kill assuming there is nothing insane like t2 reshaper into tns into smasher. If your not playing liliana or a walker it's probably a lot better as a way to grind out value.
Round1 vs elsrazi tron
Lost to turn 1 chalice almost came back from this thanks to copter cycling my one mana spells, but endbringer was to much. Game 2 was very close as well but my opponent had t1 collar and turn 3 tns. I almost broke the collar with a disenchant from board but he had another chalice on 1 that i need to smash. It turned into top deck wars with me riding two souls and man lands for a while trading resources but my opponent top decked karn into smasher. Oh well knew elsrazi tron and tron would be our worse matchup and it still feels like its not super lopsided.
Round2 bye
Round3 played bs abzan was a grind fest. I was finally able to break through thanks to a gideon emblem and souls. Copter did work by allowing to sing over a goyf and through his spirits and cycled two lands which was huge. G2 two cluthch zealous persecutions allowed me to win through double souls and lilianas. Gifted Aetherborn got in through a goyf twice and was able to keep a siege rhino back.
Round 4 living end lost game one took a mull to 6 and got stuck with 2 mutavaults and one shock in hand. Couldn't find a fourth land and had to swing in with mutavault just to do anything I eventually had to path my own mutavault to be able to play the game after my opponent went off. Game 2 i had an insane curve that opened with discard and hand hate for the first 4 turns between the scullers and ioks. G3 i got to live the dream of t1 iok into surgical his living end. I kept a one lander and he slowed me down with fulmaitors but he had no pressure on me.
In the last three weeks since playing this build tonight was my first loss i am something like 7-1-2 not including byes. And this has been against a lot of different decks. We definitely have game vs a lot of the top decks atm.
I may look into redguys ale it seems like it will help vs tron while not losing a whole lot vs a lot of other decks if there is a way to keep liliana in the deck. If you are going red guys i think that trying to jam nahiri becomes an option you have emerikul plus bob but if your willing to play the lottery it gives you a very different angle to attack tron and control decks with. Plus the cycling on it is pretty great. Also i think butcher horde may be worth looking into if you want to play young pyromancer. He doesn't net any value but as a 5/4 flyer who can get lifelink he lets you race real well and is kind of hard to kill. K-command as a 2 of is also looking good especially if you don't have lilli to break bridge and be able to get bob back late game. I still think that if liliana is your only double color it is fine you can set up to be mainly black splash white and red for your few off colors. you can also play one of the sorins as well if you want to play red and have a 4 drop walker they are definitely worse than gideon and elspeth but they still get the job done. Lord of innistrad can be a pretty good bad elspeth who can still come down and anthem for souls.
Oh and i agree sculler has done work for me he is very good into combo decks that we are usually 50/50 to slightly favorable.
As far as gifted goes he is one of those cards like coopter that seem bad on paper when you play them gets good. Against burn they almost need to kill all of our creatures that are not bob. Tidehollow blinks a bolt and artherborn if he ever connects swings the game super far in your favor. Also he feels real great when he crashes into angler and tasigur. He always feels relevant due to the deathtouch and the lifelink lets you play super aggressive with bob or double bob. The only downside with him is he is double black on two which i guess is not that when your only double white is on four
4x dark confidant
4x gifted eitherborn
3x tidehowllow sculler
3x smugglers copter
3x liliana of the veil
2x gideon ally of zendikar
4x iok
2x thoughtseize
4x lingerig souls
1x collective brutality
4x path
3x push
4x marshflats
1x windswept heath
2x godless shrine
4x conccealed courtyard
4x shambling vents
2x mutavault
1x urborg
4x swamp
1x plains
I played vs counters company and affinity. I don't think affinity is bad but playing copter is super good vs them. It kills or trades with all their creatures and blocks the etched champion. It was funny playing a colored deck that had colorless blockers in mutavault and copter. It also was absurdly good being able to cycle discard and lands late game for action and won me the game. I at one point had bob in play flipping lands and then crew the copter to cycle them. It makes playing 23 lands feel way less like a flood and it makes flipping lands with bob when you need action way better. As a midrange deck i think copter fixes a lot of problems it helps us have a late game card advantage engine. I thought copter was bad it seems bad on paper since you can't play it on two and one of our other super good teo drops like bob or tidwhowllow but oh well. Aetherborn also felt very good he let me keep two bobs out and not care about loss of life since two life is higher then my decks avg cmc. Plus he could swing in everyturn so my opponent couldn't try to ride out the bob.
I changed my mana since my last post to -1 fetch -1 plains for a hallowed fountain and anither shambleming vent. I usually dont have to shock myself to get him out on two since he i have enough fetches to grab basics most times and still have all my colors. I agree that shambling vents is way better than I thought it was and o could see cutting a fetch for number4. I thought we were a midrange deck and wanted as few lands in our deck as possible so we don't draw blanks. I also thought we needed more revolt triggers for push but you really don't. Im honestly suprised you can get away with 4 mutavaults and not have mana issues.
Aetherborn has only been great for me so far he is super good vs zoo and aggro and apart from crusader all of our creatures already get killed by any removal spell in the format. He just forces burn to throw their kill spells at it. Apart from discard i am not sure if we can realistically play around blaze outside of brimaz. Brimaz is probably super good vs burn since he is immune to blaze and is probably a 2 for one. Getting back on topic aetherborn has only impressed me since i played it he trades with everything and the lifelink is way more relevant than it seems at first. Just being at a avg higer life total is a big deal. Plus he is very good on the defense against things like shadow and tasigur.If i cut crusader than i am very convinced that gideon is better in our 4 slot. The other reason That crusader is great is his ability to run through dredges creatures and just get in for 4. Its not great but it plus spuls is a viable way to steal that match.
Im warming up to copter as a way to conbat control and tron since they cant ugin it away and nuking it with karn probably feels real bad. So i may end up doing-1 crusader -1 push for +2 copter. I dont like a 4 of glorifed equipment. Is it worth looking into a sword if mirron crusader is going to stay getting doubl activations seems good and it makes all of our soles way scarrier. The blck white sword makes mirriin crusder a 4/4 who gains 6 life and gets two creatures back.
Another thing i was thinking about was cutting my 4 drop walkers and maybe a crusader and putting in copters and cutting to 20 lands with 4 vents. It makes bob a lot lot better and makes us faster into decks like tron and dredge. We lose a little bit of grinding but we have better fixing. If you are going this way i think cutting crusader for tidehollow makes a lot more sense. Gideon gets me a lot of games but if we are still good into grindy matchups having a lower curve might make us better into aggro and combo plus the copters make silver bullet cards in the sb way better. Also our only double maana are aetherborn and liliana. So playing one or two mutavults is a lot safer. soem people on here are having success with hidden stockpile maybe thats our replacement for 4 mana walkers it is pretty vs tron and its easy to side and good vs grindy matchups. It does take a long time to get going and its really only nuts when you get two so it may just be to dedp and to low impact.
4 darkconfidant
4 gifted aetherborn
3 mirron crusader
3 lotv
2 gideon ally of zendikar/ migt be elspeth still trying to decide on which
4 path
4 push
2 blessed alliance
2 collective brutality
4 lingering souls
2 thoughtseize
4 inquestion of kosilik
4 marsh flats
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
2 godless shrine
1 watery grave
4 concealed courtyard
2 shambling vents
1 vault of the archangel
2 swamps
2 plains
Sb: 1 phyrexian arena
1 celestial purge
2 rest in peace
2 spoils of the vault
3 surgical extraction
4 ceremonius rejection
2 kor fire walker
I can see how elspeth can be good if you are playing mutavault but they seem kind of clunky in a deck that has such strick collor needs you need wb on 2 ww/bb on 3. I know your not playing artherborn so that helps with that issue. Copter is also a lot better when you have man lands to crew it. You are probably near immune to board wipes in that list. I don't think ive ever had an issue keeping gideon alive on the defense as lon as he can keep making 2/2s eventually I usually am abel to resolve a lili bob or souls and take over from their. Having played a couple games with elspeth she is definitely better than lord of innistrad but she hasn't really shinned for me then again i havent drawn her with crusader which is where she really shines. Ive seen a few games where the difference between 1/1 and 2/2 matters. your right though outside of a few matchups its not a big deal but every hit is 1 more damage which adds up over a while. Plus being able to anthem against another person playing souls is great and can also just be a huge swing and bust games wide open as well. I think they honestly occupy similar space with one being more explosive but the other being slightly more powerful. One ticks up to make 1/1s the other makes 2/2 for 0 one can jump a guy the other has a go wide anthem, and can be a 5/5. One has an ult that wins any grindy matchup.What i do like about elspeth is that sudden blast for 10 with crusader when there is no removal in the format thats a real great way to beat dredge. I guess it also can just be gain 5 with aetherborn.
How are you beating burn easy ive played the match up a few times and cant get better than 5/5 granted this was on cockatrice where my opponents drew multiple cracks or i got stuck on 2 lands or mull to 6 1 landers.or when im at 4 with aetherborn in play and my opponent tops charm thats happen more times than i think it should statistically to me. So i may be over compensating for a statisticall anomaly. I feel like the matchup should be super good for me with all the incramental life gain especially after i take out bobs and seize.
I have been trying to get some games in with elspeth but since ive put her in my deck I haven't seen her yet. I am looking for ways to improve our dredge and burn matchups and i think she is better than gideon in those situations especially with crusader. I can definitely see a situation where you are top decking against a shadow player into a board where they cant swing into you cause crusader and dropping her means gg. My biggest gripe with her is she only makes 1/1s and her jump is way more situational then gideon being a 5/5. I think her position in the deck is tied real heavily with crusader and how good he is at the time.
I think the two of mirrian crusader is about where you want to bw with him. It feels like when hes bad hes real bad and i find him getting stuck in my hand a lot against decks like zoo and burn and the matchups like abzan and deathshadow one seems sufficient to win the game.
I also have been playing gideon ally of zendikar over elspeth. Have you noticed that the difference between a 1/1 or a 2/2 mattering a lot. Guess she has pretty great synergy with the copter.
Have you played a lot into gy decks i feel like the deck is super weak to gy decks in general and i was wondering if you have found a good way to deal with this outside of jammig your sb with gy hate.
I also played a traditional list and cut one godless shrine for a watery grave and changed my mana base to give me 7 fetches to tutor for it but i could cut a basic plains for a hallowed fountain to if need be when i test it. I had 4 rejections in the sb. I know we are a deck that usually plays at sorcery speed but the one game i got in vs eldrazi tron it felt pretty great. I cut my mirron crusaders and a collective brutality out for 4 of rejects. It played out how the matchup usually does but being able to sandbag an answer to karn and balista felt great. Its a little akward with liliana but sometimes the right answer is just dont activate lilli. This is only one game but it looks promising so far. I also have a hard time va dredge and am wondering if 4 surgicals is to many in the sb or what an acceptable number is to bring in va other grindy decks. Does anyone havw experience with surgical into deaths shadow. Im thinking i may go 3 surgical 1 relic in sb at some point.
Ive looked into the green splash the main draw to going into green imo is grimflayer who works very well with bob and is great in grindy matchups but playing him makes us weaker to gy hate which for some reason people bring in all the time vs me even though my only gy card is souls. You also get voice and pusle, which are both pretty good but at that point in time you are an old old school abzan dexk that is not playing rhino so you can have bob. I would honestly not even play abrupt decay right now since its so bad into eldrazi and deaths shadow the pulse would be real nice for other lingering souls and walkers though. You also get acess to ooze for gy decks and to help offset bob. You can maybe cut playing a 4 mana walker altogether and be anle to go down to 19-20 lands if you don't mind being a little weaker to bloodmoon and land destruction. I would still play 2 blessed alliance and 2 brutalities just cause they work so well with bob and help us vs burn and zoo which i have found to be very 50/50 matchups while still being good into a lot of other tier decks.