I'm currently looking for some play advice. I've been playing B/W Eldrazi and Taxes lately, but have been having a hard time against control lists (Jeskai and U/W, mostly). Please, would anyone offer some tips on how to play the matchup a little better, how much to commit to the board, how to answer walkers, etc. Deck building advice would also be extremely welcome. Thank you so much!
can you pay a Decklist so we can see what's going on?
Certainly. I'm not breaking any molds, but here it is.
Last night was a small event, but I ended up playing against Jeskai Control, Blue Moon, and Faeries(!), and losing to all of them. Of the three, Faeries feels beatable, Jeskai difficult, and Blue Moon next to impossible. That same evening, I saw a second Jeskai deck, plus a Grixis Control deck.
As far as the rest of the meta goes, after the various control lists, the next most popular option is Affinity, with Burn, Living End, and Tron all making semi-regular appearances.
I'm currently looking for some play advice. I've been playing B/W Eldrazi and Taxes lately, but have been having a hard time against control lists (Jeskai and U/W, mostly). Please, would anyone offer some tips on how to play the matchup a little better, how much to commit to the board, how to answer walkers, etc. Deck building advice would also be extremely welcome. Thank you so much!
guys... story circle...colorless (clear sarcasm)
we may have a problem here. There is a huge time period for people to try and figure out how to beat these different eldrazi strategies, but it really does feel like a crapshoot. Until the articles from intelligent players swim in about how abysmal it felt to play and watch eldrazi on the pro tour because everything else seemed weak...wizards doesn't care. They made their money and the pro tour is going off without a hitch. The company is set in their banlist schedule and unless an emergency reset and analysis of the modern format is imminent (not likely) maybe find a different hobby to occupy your time. I honestly got bored watching the event myself and I switched over to the StarCityGames Regionals streams. I dont think the sky is falling yet, but now we are starting to see the kind of company we are dealing with.
I think people at Wizards are fully aware what a nightmare this Pro Tour is. Remember, the PR Tour exists solely for marketing purposes; it's even paid for out of their marketing budget. It does not serve their interests if a poorly received Pro Tour hurts Modern GP attendance for however long it takes consumer confidence in the format to return. We can accuse Wizards of many things, but shortsightedness is not one of them. They know just how badly mistakes can cost them months or years down the line.
Right now, I imagine they're gearing up for damage control. An immediate Twin unban is unlikely, because reversing their position so quickly would hurt confidence as well. I imagine they are going to watch and wait and hope the meta adjusts, then if it hasn't, drop the hammer in 3-6 months.
I personally don't know which players pay more. I can't afford my own team of psychologists, although I definitely would if I had a multimillion dollar company. I know that phasing out Prison and Land Destruction, 2 archetypes that I personally liked, was in their best interest as a company. I would not say that White would be a worse color in Modern. But I also wouldn't say it would be better. If it is better just because Stoneforge Mystic would be played in nearly every fair deck that can support it, then it is better by your definition, not mine. I personally just get a bit sick of talking about a card that I personally don't see a chance of getting unbanned.
In a format of fair decks with Stoneforge Mystic, as a Combo player, I will just continue to play the next Combo until that gets banned as well. I don't personally care that much if there was a possibility that it could get banned. It just means instead of facing 6 different decks in 6 rounds, I can face 5 out of those 6 to be Stoneforge decks. It's much easier to metagame. Despite what Bocephus said, I personally haven't found it that easy to metagame in this format.
As a player, I would love to see my favorite planeswalker of all time (not by a close margin), Jace, the Mind Sculptor, to be unbanned. But I will never get my hopes up regarding this card. I just won't. Wizards can ban or unban any card they want to. They will do what's good for attendance and people who think that Modern attendance doesn't help Wizards financially don't see the big picture. Any unban or ban they do can be justified in many different ways. Sword of the Meek has gotten a lot of support recently for people wanting it unbanned. Still, the very moment it doesn't, everyone will immediately agree with Wizards that it isn't the right choice, it is too powerful, etc. I am not like this. I don't agree with every decision they make blindly. I should add that I do believe that their organization of this format has been pretty good so far. I am nearly exclusively a Modern player.
At least White will now have two maindeck playable cards, as opposed to just Path to Exile!
In all seriousness, though, well put. I know I certainly have my own biases. If Stoneforge is unbanned Monday (An event I give at best a 25% chance, based on nothing at all), I will happily play it alongside Geist of Saint Traft or Bitterblossom or something. And while I still believe that Modern is capable of handling Stoneforge without breaking, after reading this thread, I'm far less confident in that assertion.
To change the subject, anyone else catch that StarCityGames article today that advocates, among other things, an Eldrazi Temple ban? Seems a bit early to say.
Who cares if Snapcaster Mage is better than Stoneforge Mystic? Tarmogoyf is better than nearly half of the current ban list. Convince me that Goyf is worse than Chrome Mox or Birthing Pod. Not to mention, Blue would be dead last if Snapcaster Mage didn't exist. With as many paying customers enjoying Blue as they do, Blue will never, and I mean never fall below the 3rd worse color. Right now, it's probably 2nd or 3rd.
Agreed but and no one is asking for snapcaster to be banned. BUT ask yourself if you were a "paying customer" whose favorite color happened to be white and it has been the worst color since the beginning of magic would you not also what it to have a day in the sun?
They can't appease everyone. They know which demographics to cater to - hence the elimination of Prison and Land Destruction decks.
The thing about Stoneforge Mystic is that it actually hurts White as a color since no White based deck will be able to beat Stoneforge Junk. White gets worse because it can't beat that deck. That's it. Good luck Death and Taxes players.
Pardon me, but are you implying that paying customers who enjoy playing Blue matter more than paying customers who enjoy playing White? And that White as a color (as opposed to the current crop of White-based decks) will somehow be worse off when it gains one of the most potent cards in the format?
I can't really speak as to whether Stoneforge is a safe ban or not- in fact, I've found many of your arguments about Stonforge's power level quite compelling. However, I must take issue with your line of reasoning in these posts.
My question is, why do people keep telling me that SFM is ok to unban but, for some reason, Bloodbraid Elf is still too powerful to be unbanned? I feel like I'm missing something here.
The answer might be that while Stoneforge Mystic is the (probably) riskier card to unban than Bloodbraid Elf, the potential upside to unbanning Mystic is higher.
Bloodbraid makes a Tier 1 deck (Jund) and a Tier 2 deck (Zoo) better. It enables few new strategies that are likely to become a large part of the meta.
Stoneforge potentially makes an entire color (White) and card subtype (equipment) much more playable. It will likely create whole new archetypes around itself. It might even rebalance the format away from those "linear" aggro decks.
At least 3 of the 4 unbans were made in the hope of enabling new decks. Unbanning any card is risky, and Wizards probably looks for a more compelling reason to unban a card than "it's probably safe".
Hello folks! I recently got back into modern running a list similar to Craig Wescoe's GP list. My local meta is absolutely drowning in Snapcaster Mage decks, including U/W Control and Grixis Control, Delver, and Twin. Besides adding a second Choke to the sideboard, are there any deck changes,or playing tips that will help me fight the blue menace? More specifically, is a full play set of Scavenging Ooze too much, especially considering there are at least a couple of Abzan CoCo players running around? Thank you!
I feel one of the main problems with adjusting the poison counter limit is consistency. I think EDH is best served by having as few rules that deviate from normal Magic as possible. Making rules changes for individual mechanics and corner cases just makes Commander less accessible to other players. I mean, people already have to learn all of the rules regarding Commanders. We want to keep Commander as much like regular Magic as possible.
Mine's a snippet from the Bayeux Tapestry. Specifically the bit depicts Archbishop Odo of Bayeux, brother of William the Conqueror. in a decidedly non-ecclesiastical setting. It's a reference both to my love of history and to my gaming preferences (I tend towards more supporting roles in RPGs, and those are usually flavored as clerics). As an added bonus, my favorite color in Magic is White, which is the color of both holy types and armies.
So, what do people think is going to happen with Noble Hierarch? I would love to see it go down to $30 or less, but I feel there is a risk of the price dip from the reprint being offset by Collected Company's popularity.
On an unrelated note, I'm not a fan of the argument that we have to nerf Twin and Delver to allow control into the format. Trading one deck for another seems kind of silly.
Im not either. Let's ban something from decks that are completely fine so people can maybe play with other decks. Yeah, no.
Also the Twin is holding back Blue argument is kinda illogical if we look at it.
You know what? The BG/x decks are holding back Black. Black Control, Aggro and Combo strategies are suffering too so let's ban BG/x or find ways to make them better without helping BG/x, right?
It's funny how nobody goes down that road and yet the exact same argument is made when it comes to Blue and Twin.
It is not illogical when most of the best BG cards ever printed are modern legal, all the options are there, if other strategies with black and green are not so attractive (By the win rate factor) there is a lot of space for creating black and green cards that does not fit into the BGx good stuff theme and that can yet enable or improve other decks. People start complaining when cards that are not broken and that would improve mostly non tier 1 decks are laying on the banlist.
If we extend the "ban x to make other strategies/cards more viable", then we should by extension be talking about Tarmogoyf because that card holds back every single aggressive creature in the format, especially 2-drops, and not just green ones. But even though I loathe Goyf and everything about it, I don't think it needs to be banned (erased from the timeline maybe, but not banned). And that is because banning cards based on what might be possible in a format without them is foolish, unless the card/deck is provably oppressive.
When I think of a game called Magic, I think of fantastical spells and awesome energy blasts and lots of ridiculous things happening. Black inspires thoughts of raising the dead and blighting all that moves; Red blasts and burns everything in its path; White heals and casts out holy judgement; Green calls upon the earth and its creatures to fight; and Blue uses knowledge to tactically counter the opponent.
Whether we want to admit it or not, I think a lot of us want those same kinds of feelings and experiences. The problem is that last one you mentioned Negates all the others. That's why we have this thread.
The issue of creatures being pushed is a different issue. (Related, but still different.)
It's not that it negates all the others, there are plenty of ways to fight it, you just have to try a little bit harder. Not every strike in a lightsaber duel cuts off someone's arm; most of them are just parrys, and yet it's still entertaining. I don't see the issue with having a primarily defensive color like that.
I think part of the problem with overly powerful noncreature spells (especially instants and sorceries) is a mechanical one. Of all the colors, only Blue gets plentiful ways of interacting with spells on the stack. The others can do so in more limited ways (Red can copy/redirect instants and sorceries, Green can protect its creatures, Black can discard spells from hand, and White can protect itself and it's creatures, or create "rules" that limit what an opponent can do). Counterspells are more versatile and effective than anything the other colors can do. Therefore, in a meta where the biggest threat is a Fireball to the face, or a resolved Goblin Charbelcher, or High Tide into Stroke of Genius, or Tooth and Nail, into Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermite, blue is better because counterpells are the only way of interacting with those kinds of spells before they kill you.
Part of the reason why creatures are so pushed is that interacting with creatures (and permanents in general) is easy, and something all colors can do, even if that interaction is just "play a better creature". If we are to go back to a meta where spells are more powerful than creatures, then colors that aren't blue are going to need better ways in interact with spells on the stack.
I agree with everything said above about Twin's inherent fairness, and would like to add that it's combo can be interrupted by creature removal, the most common type of answer in Magic. Twin is probably the poster child of what a combo deck should be in Modern.
If you aren't playing twin, your blue deck sucks. Blue is far and away the worst color in the format now.
Counterpoint; if you aren't playing mostly black cards, your white deck sucks.
Seriously, though, while blue control is not where it wants to be power wise, it is by no means "far and away the worst color in the format". In fact, if you look at our very own tier 1 board here on mtgsalvationn, blue sees play in more decks than black. So while I might buy arguments that blue (and more particularly blue based control) has problems that at least need to be considered, I don't buy that it's this oppressed, woefully underpowered color.
Certainly. I'm not breaking any molds, but here it is.
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
Spells 10
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Godless Shrine
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Plains
2 Shambling vent
1 Wastes
1 Swamp
Sidebaord 15
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Reality Smasher
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Celestial Purge
Last night was a small event, but I ended up playing against Jeskai Control, Blue Moon, and Faeries(!), and losing to all of them. Of the three, Faeries feels beatable, Jeskai difficult, and Blue Moon next to impossible. That same evening, I saw a second Jeskai deck, plus a Grixis Control deck.
As far as the rest of the meta goes, after the various control lists, the next most popular option is Affinity, with Burn, Living End, and Tron all making semi-regular appearances.
Thank you for your help!
I'm currently looking for some play advice. I've been playing B/W Eldrazi and Taxes lately, but have been having a hard time against control lists (Jeskai and U/W, mostly). Please, would anyone offer some tips on how to play the matchup a little better, how much to commit to the board, how to answer walkers, etc. Deck building advice would also be extremely welcome. Thank you so much!
I think people at Wizards are fully aware what a nightmare this Pro Tour is. Remember, the PR Tour exists solely for marketing purposes; it's even paid for out of their marketing budget. It does not serve their interests if a poorly received Pro Tour hurts Modern GP attendance for however long it takes consumer confidence in the format to return. We can accuse Wizards of many things, but shortsightedness is not one of them. They know just how badly mistakes can cost them months or years down the line.
Right now, I imagine they're gearing up for damage control. An immediate Twin unban is unlikely, because reversing their position so quickly would hurt confidence as well. I imagine they are going to watch and wait and hope the meta adjusts, then if it hasn't, drop the hammer in 3-6 months.
The king is dead. Long live the king.
Break out the Ghost Quarters and Stony Silences.
At least White will now have two maindeck playable cards, as opposed to just Path to Exile!
In all seriousness, though, well put. I know I certainly have my own biases. If Stoneforge is unbanned Monday (An event I give at best a 25% chance, based on nothing at all), I will happily play it alongside Geist of Saint Traft or Bitterblossom or something. And while I still believe that Modern is capable of handling Stoneforge without breaking, after reading this thread, I'm far less confident in that assertion.
To change the subject, anyone else catch that StarCityGames article today that advocates, among other things, an Eldrazi Temple ban? Seems a bit early to say.
Pardon me, but are you implying that paying customers who enjoy playing Blue matter more than paying customers who enjoy playing White? And that White as a color (as opposed to the current crop of White-based decks) will somehow be worse off when it gains one of the most potent cards in the format?
I can't really speak as to whether Stoneforge is a safe ban or not- in fact, I've found many of your arguments about Stonforge's power level quite compelling. However, I must take issue with your line of reasoning in these posts.
The answer might be that while Stoneforge Mystic is the (probably) riskier card to unban than Bloodbraid Elf, the potential upside to unbanning Mystic is higher.
Bloodbraid makes a Tier 1 deck (Jund) and a Tier 2 deck (Zoo) better. It enables few new strategies that are likely to become a large part of the meta.
Stoneforge potentially makes an entire color (White) and card subtype (equipment) much more playable. It will likely create whole new archetypes around itself. It might even rebalance the format away from those "linear" aggro decks.
At least 3 of the 4 unbans were made in the hope of enabling new decks. Unbanning any card is risky, and Wizards probably looks for a more compelling reason to unban a card than "it's probably safe".
If we extend the "ban x to make other strategies/cards more viable", then we should by extension be talking about Tarmogoyf because that card holds back every single aggressive creature in the format, especially 2-drops, and not just green ones. But even though I loathe Goyf and everything about it, I don't think it needs to be banned (erased from the timeline maybe, but not banned). And that is because banning cards based on what might be possible in a format without them is foolish, unless the card/deck is provably oppressive.
I think part of the problem with overly powerful noncreature spells (especially instants and sorceries) is a mechanical one. Of all the colors, only Blue gets plentiful ways of interacting with spells on the stack. The others can do so in more limited ways (Red can copy/redirect instants and sorceries, Green can protect its creatures, Black can discard spells from hand, and White can protect itself and it's creatures, or create "rules" that limit what an opponent can do). Counterspells are more versatile and effective than anything the other colors can do. Therefore, in a meta where the biggest threat is a Fireball to the face, or a resolved Goblin Charbelcher, or High Tide into Stroke of Genius, or Tooth and Nail, into Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermite, blue is better because counterpells are the only way of interacting with those kinds of spells before they kill you.
Part of the reason why creatures are so pushed is that interacting with creatures (and permanents in general) is easy, and something all colors can do, even if that interaction is just "play a better creature". If we are to go back to a meta where spells are more powerful than creatures, then colors that aren't blue are going to need better ways in interact with spells on the stack.
Counterpoint; if you aren't playing mostly black cards, your white deck sucks.
Seriously, though, while blue control is not where it wants to be power wise, it is by no means "far and away the worst color in the format". In fact, if you look at our very own tier 1 board here on mtgsalvationn, blue sees play in more decks than black. So while I might buy arguments that blue (and more particularly blue based control) has problems that at least need to be considered, I don't buy that it's this oppressed, woefully underpowered color.