This is a poorly designed thread. It is loaded with fallacies and biased opinion. The hate on sol ring and mana crypt is unjustified. It begs the question of why is it hated and why players are not adapting to it? This is a game of adaptation and skill. Not running removal or playing heavy group hug in format of real competitive cards is their fault. The mana rocks are easily destroyed. Commander has the another unseen rule. You play with 99 unknown drawn cards. It's the luck and skill that drive good players. Everyone wants perfect equilibrium or fairness, but no one tries to ban the real obvious threat to a good game: getting mana sqrewed. Oh wait, we can't ban that....instead we pick on the successful players.
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
It is justified. Both enable plays which would be done a lot later in game. Nobody cares about Sol Ring or Crypt after T5. But when someone starts with Land --> Ring --> Signet and T2 he plays 5 CMC general when others are on 1 mana, that is the problem. Add Crypt and you can cast down Damia, Sage of stone on T2. Yep, totally fair. T1 artifact destroys exist, but I won't pack my deck only with artifact hate just to counter sol ring. Also, in deck of 100 cards, even if you pack 10 to counter artifacts, doesn't mean you will have it in opening hand, rng works.
Pod of Ur-dragons? Modified or not? If not, you are really comparing 3 pre-made decks with almost no answers to anything to your fine tuned Memnarch? Also, maybe they are casual players, not cutthroat like you. Maybe the ashamed one should be you.
Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary permanents will now be true about legendary planeswalkers. Also note that this does not mean legendary planeswalkers can be your Commander unless an ability says so.
Under the new rules, if a player controls more than one legendary planeswalker with the same name, that player chooses one and puts the other into their owner's graveyard. This means that if you control Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and cast Jace, Cunning Castaway, both Jaces can exist under your control.
So, no more new planeswalker commanders, but there might be some beastly past/future iteration combos.
Was not there when I copied it. Probably they added it afterwards. But whatever, it answers my question...
Ixalan rules change:
"Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary creatures will now be true about legendary planeswalkers."
Will this somehow affect commander? Mainly the sentence "everything that's true about legendary creatures will now be true about legendary planeswalkers."
No, I think if you legalize all PW's as commanders than you're setting up the return of the "banned as commander" list whose abilities are too strong to be in the command zone. And that happens, you're setting the tone for the list to be expanded to include some other commanders that would likely be on it if the list were still in place.
I believe it wasn't all that long ago that Sheldon wrote an article on Scg.com regarding what the return of the list would mean.
do you have a link for that? I would like to read his reasoning.
Because from my point of view, 'banned as commander' was a good thing and I never understood why it was put away. Maybe his article will give me new sight on it.
I wouldn't mind it. It's very very difficult to abuse walkers as opposed to creatures. Creatures get cheated out all the time. Besides, Doubling Season is indeed a very boring card. People can choose not to play it.
It would be interesting to have walkers as commanders. As the current 5 printed have shown. they CAN be powerful but they will never overshadow creature commanders. You can't attack a creature, while you can attack a walker.
People may run more Pithing Needle effects, or play more walker removal. It's not game-changing, but it does add a different angle of gameplay that still retains the nature of "Commander-ness"
Exactly. In FFA games when we tested some PW's, I don't remember when some PW survived more than two turns. And forcing people to play more walker removal or stuff like pithing needle is not that bad, the diversity will improve again.
I highly doubt it would hurt anything that badly. Commander isn't a format that's particularly promising for small, incremental advantage and that's basically what walkers tend to do other than their ultimates.
Well, if 3 enemies let you get your ultimate on PW general (outside of Doubling Season) then something went totally wrong and you would win with any other general as well...
I voted no because the few that can were specifically designed for that purpose. Most of the others become to hit or miss with regards to power level, and it's mostly the hits i fear will take the fun out of the game. Can you imagine playing against a dedicated Gideon deck with Gideon of the Trials as it's commander?
I don't see a problem with playing against a mono-white Gideon deck. Maybe you can explain to me what you mean? Because I don't see it.
Going with NO as well, part of the formats identify is the commanders themselves and the ability to deal commander damage therein. Minus some enchantment/artifact shenanigans and an army of Gideons, there is no way for this element of the format to factor in with planeswalkers.
Additionally, some key planeswalkers have notable color identitiy advantages (against other PW commanders) or have back-breaking abilities when they are easily repeatable in the command zone (All but the duel deck Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin and Tezzerett 1.0, among other) just adding an additional "unfun" element to the game that already sometimes has some issues with Stax and other such strategies.
Some PW's can do commander damage. Also, you have high number of generals, most of them actually, who just don't win the game on general damage.
Nicol Bolas isn't that strong, 8 CMC, come on. Ugin is strong, but he is colorless and doesn't draw you hand like Kozilek does. Tezzerett doesn't do anything more than Arcum can do. Yes, Sorin could be a problem.
I actually want it to go further and allow artifacts and enchantments and non-legendary creatures as your general, because that's where the fun of the game comes from for me, building decks to take advantage of your commander. I currently feel blocked by the cards that are printed, and feel like the commander pool needs to be greatly increased.
Planeswalkers are mostly weak commanders anyways, I have no idea why so many people talk about them as too strong. Do you really expect them to outperform the broken stuff that's already out there? We have commanders that have deterministic wins if you untap with them, and commanders that are above the curve standalone stats that also are part of 2 card game winning combos. I am not worried at all about planeswalker commander strength.
Theros gods are actually viable legendary enchantments that don't ever need to transform into creature and still work as generals. By the way, some of the PW's are playable generals already, but there is no artifact, regular enchantment or non-legendary creature viable as general. You're just trying to make fun but without arguments.
We were discussing in our playgroup, whether PW's would be broken as generals. After few hours of talking and some play-testing, we came to the conclusion, that they are not that broken. Each time, we found some legendary creature, which could do the thing faster or better. Only few green would be strong thanks to Doubling Season, which could be banned. I think that allowing new 97 generals is worth getting rid of one card and let's be honest, I never saw Doubling Season being played without abusing it.
Did someone of you house-ruled PW's as legal generals? Did you did some testing and if yes, what were the results? And, what are your opinions for allowing and for not allowing them as generals?
1) It fits the characters (lol, they are melding..)
2) It is not creating a new archetype, but Angel/Human general doesn't sound bad
3) Bruna is 7CMC and it is mono-W, so it won't be broken as hell
I wonder if just banning the specific Vial Kraum partnership would be an option as opposed to just banning VS as a general completely. However this begs the question of whether the other partner options like Thrasios or Reyhan are fine.
Idk, just brainstorming
Anothrr tournament, VS + Kraum is 4 times in first 8 decks, also placed 1st. I think VS gets the hammer. Kraum isnt that strong, And you can still pair VS with Ludevic or any UG general just for the colors and have similar results. The problem it the VS with access to blue. I dont think partner cards are outright broken.
I am starting to think Vial Smasher will get hammer soon.
Another tournament, out of top 8, 4 are smashers with kraum. 22 partner control decks on mtgtop8, 10x first place and 3x second. He is out a month and he is already second most used control deck.. I think he will surpras Geist.
So I think enough time has passed now that I'm not going to get attacked for for bringing up Vial Smasher and it being pretty busted in the format. Does something need to be done or is it cool to just let it be? Instead of banning it maybe we should just unban other stuff like Marath to create balance?
I was saying it right as it was spoiled that it will be broken when paired with Kraum.
Check the mtgtop8. Partner control has 17 decks, out of which 9 times it was on the first place. Thats pretty insane.
I don't think they ban him right on the place, but he is too op for 20 life format. Wonder how it would be if they would let 25 HP. Nevermind. I think they need to unban few things as you proposed, like Marath. But I think that the partner ability is making him so OP. He wouldnt be this strong without access to blue.
Breya is by far the hardest to brew for. She is literally bigger sister to umezawa's jitte. If you try to build her in any way other than combo or stax, she falls apart. She is a win con, a control piece, and utility general. There are so many ways to go about her in the color combos, but to solidate it is mind numbing.
If you wanna build good stuff artifacts, there are other generals. If you aren't trying to play to win with her... it isnt very effective.
I think she is very weak outside of combo. The cost of abilities is just too high to activate regularly. For that you need a lot of artifact token generators which are not that good without her. umezawa's jitte doesn't have n activation cost at least. 3 Damage to enemy player or gaining 5 life for sacrificing 2 artifacts and paying 2 mana is useless in 40 life format, so the only useful ability outside combo is -4/-4, which still is highly costed.
After the release of partners i was wondering if Bruna, the Fading Light and Gisela, the Broken Blade would be good with partner. If they did get partner what would be the rulings on it, especially when Brisela, Voice of Nightmares gets formed and would combat damage taken from Brisela count as commander damage?
Given that such a situation is not currently possible, I don't think there IS a definitive ruling on how commander damage would work. Partners track damage separately, so would brisela count for both? For neither? For her own total? Not sure. I think we'd need a new rule to answer that question. Unless a future commander product does such a thing, such a rule will probably never exist though.
If you house-rule them to have partner, you'll probably have to decide for yourself.
Both of them are legitimate generals (just not together). Copied from an older thread where I was asking this:
"Matt Tabak already confirmed that Brisela will deal Commander damage when melded. It's also confirmed that if the non-Commander half gets exiled, it will stay in exile. This includes if Brisela itself gets exiled, Bruna would go back to the zone and Gisela would stay exiled."
I think that if they had partners, you would track general damage for Gisela, different for Bruna and if they melted into Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, her damage would go to both Gisela and Bruna damage count. Like, Gisela hit enemy twice for 8 general damage, Bruna once for 5 general damage. Then, you meld them and attack once. That will result in Gisela having 17 dealt commander damage and Bruna 14 general damage.
Honestly, not a fan. Mostly because in my experience, it just ends up kingmaking. I went infinite with Azami like turn 5 because someone's Braids, Conjurer Adept group hug thing gave me a free Mind Over Matter. Nobody had fun, including me.
I agree. I hate grouphug decks. Most times, they are not enough competitive to win on their own. If someone has good start, they just boost him even more and if you have bad start, they help you a bit, but the enemy is already miles away. It always ends up as kingmaking, as one player takes complete lead with the help of grouphug deck, decimates the other two players and kills the grouphug players as last. It is not fun from my point of view.
Depends what you take as 'budget'. Colorless deck won't be very cheap. yes, you can build it cheaply, but it will be probably useless. You will need strong artifact subtheme, as draw and ramp are possible only through artifacts. Don't forget there is exactly 1 enchantment, 2 planeswalkers and very few instants & sorceries. That means that 90% of your deck are colorless creatures and artifacts.
I got Kozilek, the Great Distortion deck and I think he is the best general out of colorless ones, as you use your hand to ramp out and cast him to draw your hand full. Also he got menace and kills on 2 attacks. You can go full colorless eldrazi tribal, it is funny, but not very effective or competitive.
It is justified. Both enable plays which would be done a lot later in game. Nobody cares about Sol Ring or Crypt after T5. But when someone starts with Land --> Ring --> Signet and T2 he plays 5 CMC general when others are on 1 mana, that is the problem. Add Crypt and you can cast down Damia, Sage of stone on T2. Yep, totally fair. T1 artifact destroys exist, but I won't pack my deck only with artifact hate just to counter sol ring. Also, in deck of 100 cards, even if you pack 10 to counter artifacts, doesn't mean you will have it in opening hand, rng works.
Pod of Ur-dragons? Modified or not? If not, you are really comparing 3 pre-made decks with almost no answers to anything to your fine tuned Memnarch? Also, maybe they are casual players, not cutthroat like you. Maybe the ashamed one should be you.
Was not there when I copied it. Probably they added it afterwards. But whatever, it answers my question...
"Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary creatures will now be true about legendary planeswalkers."
Will this somehow affect commander? Mainly the sentence "everything that's true about legendary creatures will now be true about legendary planeswalkers."
do you have a link for that? I would like to read his reasoning.
Because from my point of view, 'banned as commander' was a good thing and I never understood why it was put away. Maybe his article will give me new sight on it.
Exactly. In FFA games when we tested some PW's, I don't remember when some PW survived more than two turns. And forcing people to play more walker removal or stuff like pithing needle is not that bad, the diversity will improve again.
Well, if 3 enemies let you get your ultimate on PW general (outside of Doubling Season) then something went totally wrong and you would win with any other general as well...
I don't see a problem with playing against a mono-white Gideon deck. Maybe you can explain to me what you mean? Because I don't see it.
Some PW's can do commander damage. Also, you have high number of generals, most of them actually, who just don't win the game on general damage.
Nicol Bolas isn't that strong, 8 CMC, come on. Ugin is strong, but he is colorless and doesn't draw you hand like Kozilek does. Tezzerett doesn't do anything more than Arcum can do. Yes, Sorin could be a problem.
Theros gods are actually viable legendary enchantments that don't ever need to transform into creature and still work as generals. By the way, some of the PW's are playable generals already, but there is no artifact, regular enchantment or non-legendary creature viable as general. You're just trying to make fun but without arguments.
We were discussing in our playgroup, whether PW's would be broken as generals. After few hours of talking and some play-testing, we came to the conclusion, that they are not that broken. Each time, we found some legendary creature, which could do the thing faster or better. Only few green would be strong thanks to Doubling Season, which could be banned. I think that allowing new 97 generals is worth getting rid of one card and let's be honest, I never saw Doubling Season being played without abusing it.
We tested Ugin, the spirit dragon, Jace, the mind sculptor, Arlinn Kord, Sarkhans, Chandras, and some others, but never found them too broken or impossible to play against. Only ones which could be broken, are Sorin Markov because setting life on 10 and probably Liliana of the Veil because of possible stax build.
Did someone of you house-ruled PW's as legal generals? Did you did some testing and if yes, what were the results? And, what are your opinions for allowing and for not allowing them as generals?
1) It fits the characters (lol, they are melding..)
2) It is not creating a new archetype, but Angel/Human general doesn't sound bad
3) Bruna is 7CMC and it is mono-W, so it won't be broken as hell
Anothrr tournament, VS + Kraum is 4 times in first 8 decks, also placed 1st. I think VS gets the hammer. Kraum isnt that strong, And you can still pair VS with Ludevic or any UG general just for the colors and have similar results. The problem it the VS with access to blue. I dont think partner cards are outright broken.
Another tournament, out of top 8, 4 are smashers with kraum. 22 partner control decks on mtgtop8, 10x first place and 3x second. He is out a month and he is already second most used control deck.. I think he will surpras Geist.
I was saying it right as it was spoiled that it will be broken when paired with Kraum.
Check the mtgtop8. Partner control has 17 decks, out of which 9 times it was on the first place. Thats pretty insane.
I don't think they ban him right on the place, but he is too op for 20 life format. Wonder how it would be if they would let 25 HP. Nevermind. I think they need to unban few things as you proposed, like Marath. But I think that the partner ability is making him so OP. He wouldnt be this strong without access to blue.
Caseto on the other hand is small weak but suprisingly he kills you on one attack sometimes.
I think she is very weak outside of combo. The cost of abilities is just too high to activate regularly. For that you need a lot of artifact token generators which are not that good without her. umezawa's jitte doesn't have n activation cost at least. 3 Damage to enemy player or gaining 5 life for sacrificing 2 artifacts and paying 2 mana is useless in 40 life format, so the only useful ability outside combo is -4/-4, which still is highly costed.
For that I think, play her as combo or find different general for casual goodstuff deck, like Silas Renn, Seeker Adept partnered with Akiri, Line-Slinger...
Both of them are legitimate generals (just not together). Copied from an older thread where I was asking this:
"Matt Tabak already confirmed that Brisela will deal Commander damage when melded. It's also confirmed that if the non-Commander half gets exiled, it will stay in exile. This includes if Brisela itself gets exiled, Bruna would go back to the zone and Gisela would stay exiled."
I think that if they had partners, you would track general damage for Gisela, different for Bruna and if they melted into Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, her damage would go to both Gisela and Bruna damage count. Like, Gisela hit enemy twice for 8 general damage, Bruna once for 5 general damage. Then, you meld them and attack once. That will result in Gisela having 17 dealt commander damage and Bruna 14 general damage.
But that is just the way I see it.
I agree. I hate grouphug decks. Most times, they are not enough competitive to win on their own. If someone has good start, they just boost him even more and if you have bad start, they help you a bit, but the enemy is already miles away. It always ends up as kingmaking, as one player takes complete lead with the help of grouphug deck, decimates the other two players and kills the grouphug players as last. It is not fun from my point of view.
I got Kozilek, the Great Distortion deck and I think he is the best general out of colorless ones, as you use your hand to ramp out and cast him to draw your hand full. Also he got menace and kills on 2 attacks. You can go full colorless eldrazi tribal, it is funny, but not very effective or competitive.
For non-casual or more competitive deck you need a lot of pricey cards like Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Emrakul, the Promised End, Kozilek, butcher of truth, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Ugin, the spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated... and I am not even counting all the lands and the price they cost. like Eye of Ugin, Ancient Tomb and also other colorless utility lands as Homeward Path, Maze of ith, etc.
I think that if you want Kozilek deck, you need a lot of money or it is not worth it..