The biggest starter mistake here Daeyel is that you assume you get to untap with Jace on board. If your plan is to mill, again Jace does not contribute. If your plan is to recast spells in the graveyard Snapcaster Mage allows you to do this instantly. Jace on the other hand, again, does not.
Graveyard removal will be boarded in against you, why? Because of Snapcaster Mage.
The question you seem to ignore here is, did you play Merfolk Looter before in your deck? If not, why would you now suddenly like to include Jace in it?
To me, that's like asking, if you didn't play Unsummon before, why would you play Jace the Mind Sculptor?
It's the reach. Is Merfolk Looter a good card? I don't think so. It's what it does on the flip side that I want.
I'm used to jumping through hoops to get things I want, do a little research into SWCCG Objectives.
Basically, meet these conditions, flip the card, and get a new set of more powerful conditions. They were a staple of SWCCG. Maybe I should be calling him 'Objective Jace' lol.
You seem to think it too much work, but I think it's really easy to flip. 2 turns of Hedron Crab, or any one mill. Drop him turn 2, mill turn 3, flip turn 4 and mill twice, or twincast mill.
You seem to think he will not survive. I'm not sure why. They usually go for the crab, and even that takes a few turns. That whole 'Your counter is only good if you have it in your hand' thing. Which goes for Jace. I can run 4, and never see one. The more reason, IMO, to run 4 Snaps and 4 Jace. Sure, one is faster, but better than nothing.
At this point, we are debating hypothetics. All that can verify anything, is playing decks, over and over and over.
I want consistency. I want to have 4 lands (although my deck can win, and has won when mana choked to 2 lands) out by turn 5, and milling each turn from turn 3 onward. Keep the pressure on. Relentless. Snap and Jace will help assure this.
What decks are you playing against exactly?
And how do you know they would go for the crab? You have never played the card.
I think Nissa may be the only walker of the three that doesn't require jumping through hoops. A 2/2 for 3 that replaces itself with a forest is bad, but it could be way worse. At the very least it replaces itself albeit with a land. Additionally She is the only walker of the three that can flip the turn you play her. I also think the immediate impact of draw a card/create a 4/4 is pretty good.
I'm fairly sure if I'm reading the card correctly there is a priority slot where your opponent can kill Nissa in response to the flip trigger which really sucks, but at least if that doesn't happen you get an instant activation.
I don't think you want to build a deck around Nissa. Nissa just isn't good enough. But if zendikar has a lands matter deck this would slot in perfectly. Don't underestimate cards that don't require build arounds. The reason courser was underrated was because it didn't do anything super special. The reason courser turned out to be amazing was that every green deck wanted something for that three mana slot and courser fit in super well.
Many of you are looking at this all wrong...[snip] Having just started this game 6 weeks ago...
your entire post can be summed up with this contradiction.
you might feel like you're getting a hang of the game and want to spout some wisdom, but trust me, you've got a long way to go.
(saying that, i think jace is ok. not "good", very slow, awful in terms of pressure compared to, say, snapcaster. but might see some fringe action in a durdly deck which doesn't exist yet. a big feather in his cap is coming down early enough to maybe avoid a targeted removal spell. opponent might ignore him and remove your higher priority targets. for low-cost incremental advantage and potential lategame threat i'd just play either snapcaster mage or Thassa, god of the sea, which seem to overlap quite well in function but are harder to remove or more impactful in the mid game)
I'd count on them ignoring him until it's too late. They have only the two turns to remove him (mine and theirs) and then he flips. That's a short clock. If they burn him, well, them's the breaks. It's not game ending.
Question is, Phantasm, Crab or EPP Jace - which would you burn?
Thanks for the Thassa tip, I hadn't seen that card before. Think it's going to replace one of my Phantasms, just for the ability to make unblockable Aberration. Thats turn 6 gg right there, if I haven't already milled them out.
Ignoring him until it's too late? Cards do not magically appear in graveyards. You can burn/path/terminate him in response to whatever trigger is putting cards in graveyards before he loots. He has the vexing devil problem. You are giving your opponent choices, which is always bad.
The question with jace, is do you really really want to jump through hoops for snapcaster #5 even if it is worse in almost every way.
Because if the answer is no, jace is unplayable in modern. Not having haste kills him. If he had haste we could have serious discussions about if he is a possible snapcaster replacement/addition.
Don't get me wrong, it's a FUN card. Totally expect to see it in EDH and possibly standard decks. Jace is not playable in modern. It is just too slow for the format. You just don't have time in modern to jack around with 0/2's that have to stick around for a full turn to do anything
because tron is THE deck of the moment, won the SCG invitational and many people are building it for there next modern tournament!!!
A side note on that. I love the concept of Tron. It acts a lot like MUD in Legacy, but instead of locking your opponent out of the game, it blows up the field when it wants....I like-y... Also I could play all 3 Eldrazi in a single deck.
I ask, is it worth it for me to build for casual store events? Curious as I am missing the DRAW eldrazi, DESTROY eldrazi, willows, the Karns, 1 Ugin, and 2 Wurmcoils. I love tribal decks and I love when every card in a deck synergizes with each other either in the same way or differently. Favourite things to do in magic is ramp hard and fast and drawing cards, one reason why I have Elves sleeved up. As for type of playstyle I'm after, I have played the deck before, but on a budget, with no Groves and Karns with a few my Emrakuls to replace the other Eldrazi.
I agree the Karns are pretty important. If you really like the deck then now may not be a bad time to pick them up as they were just reprinted. The other cards such as groves, though also very important, aren't completely required for the deck to function. You could replace those with pains or shocks and buy over time if you are budget conscious.
You are also fine with a single ugin. I only play one and I think that may actually be correct. There hasn't yet been a consensus on how many ugins are the right number.
how do you guys feel about more than one Ugin in the maindeck while also running a full set of oblivion stones?
Depending on the meta it can be very good. I'm not running any because I run into Affinity way too often around here.
Seems a bit win more to me.
Ugin slams the door on Jund,Junk etc, but we should already be winning those matchups. I actually think comparing O-stone and Ugin is a mistake. O-stones are fantastic because of the instant speed nature. Ugin is slow and clunky, great in matchups where slow and clunky is fine. Awful in matchups where we don't have time.
I love a singleton ugin because it slams the door on fair decks so incredibly hard, but I don't want more then one main.
I run one main deck spellskite for the reason you listed. I disagree with more then one main though. I don't want to lose to abzan because I drew three spellskites instead of action.
I wish I could say that you would have convinced me hunger, but I am rather stubborn. At the same time though i did feel like I was all alone in this so maybe I don't vote right away if I think people are actually going to do something? Then maybe I spend more time thinking about it. Especially if you strongly preferred Cyan
It's hard to say.
And I absolutely leave the LC to Hunger. He was the one person I was confident was town. KCCs counter of seppel spooked me enough where I entertained the thought of scum KCC.
This deck looks fun, but it's certainly not top tier. That's probably where the disconnect is coming from.
New jace could be super good in this deck and the sort of decks this plays against, but it's not good in top tier magic.
What decks are you playing against exactly?
And how do you know they would go for the crab? You have never played the card.
I'm fairly sure if I'm reading the card correctly there is a priority slot where your opponent can kill Nissa in response to the flip trigger which really sucks, but at least if that doesn't happen you get an instant activation.
I don't think you want to build a deck around Nissa. Nissa just isn't good enough. But if zendikar has a lands matter deck this would slot in perfectly. Don't underestimate cards that don't require build arounds. The reason courser was underrated was because it didn't do anything super special. The reason courser turned out to be amazing was that every green deck wanted something for that three mana slot and courser fit in super well.
Ignoring him until it's too late? Cards do not magically appear in graveyards. You can burn/path/terminate him in response to whatever trigger is putting cards in graveyards before he loots. He has the vexing devil problem. You are giving your opponent choices, which is always bad.
Because if the answer is no, jace is unplayable in modern. Not having haste kills him. If he had haste we could have serious discussions about if he is a possible snapcaster replacement/addition.
Don't get me wrong, it's a FUN card. Totally expect to see it in EDH and possibly standard decks. Jace is not playable in modern. It is just too slow for the format. You just don't have time in modern to jack around with 0/2's that have to stick around for a full turn to do anything
I agree the Karns are pretty important. If you really like the deck then now may not be a bad time to pick them up as they were just reprinted. The other cards such as groves, though also very important, aren't completely required for the deck to function. You could replace those with pains or shocks and buy over time if you are budget conscious.
You are also fine with a single ugin. I only play one and I think that may actually be correct. There hasn't yet been a consensus on how many ugins are the right number.
Groves are one of the reasons this deck is good. The lack of life loss is huge.
Seems a bit win more to me.
Ugin slams the door on Jund,Junk etc, but we should already be winning those matchups. I actually think comparing O-stone and Ugin is a mistake. O-stones are fantastic because of the instant speed nature. Ugin is slow and clunky, great in matchups where slow and clunky is fine. Awful in matchups where we don't have time.
I love a singleton ugin because it slams the door on fair decks so incredibly hard, but I don't want more then one main.
What this does signle however, is this recent CoCo meta change has been incredible for us.
Great matchup against CoCo
CoCo is a great matchup against burn
More people playing Jund
If this continues we should be all aboard the tier 1 train
It's hard to say.
And I absolutely leave the LC to Hunger. He was the one person I was confident was town. KCCs counter of seppel spooked me enough where I entertained the thought of scum KCC.
Not a huge fan of metalcraft. There just isn't enough payoff and the great artifacts everyone wants anyways.