I don't think Yidris or green add enough to the deck to warrant cutting Jeleva. She doesn't need more ramp, and none of the green cards are strong enough to stretch the manabase during a game.
I also think Yidris the card is worse than Jeleva. She casts cards for you without having to jump through hoops. Yidris requires you to damage a player, and then also have mana and cards available to cast more spells. When you're winning he makes it easier to storm off... but you were winning there anyways. Jeleva has a much better power curve, in addition to being easier to cast early game because of the Colorless cost.
I like this change. Pact of Negation always felt terrible in my openers and Unsubstantiate is basically remand without the draw. Pretty sweet that we can interact with 'Can't be countered' now too.
Awesome deck. Mardu is my favorite color combination, and Alesha my favorite commander. It is a shame, because I could never get a consistent list under her; however yours seems to be tuned to near perfection.
If you don't mind taking the time, I'm curious; what kind of changes would you make so the deck could better handle larger creature based strategies? I know big creatures hardly exist in cEDH, however my meta has not yet evolved to the stage of Doomsday Zur and other top tier cEDH decks, but they are almost there. So for now, I'd love to build the deck, but tune the power down just a bit and make it viable against creature based strategies. Once the meta has grown I'll have the shell I need to fight those pesky combo decks.
Thanks!
Thanks!It took a lot of work to get to this point. I had played a couple tweaked versions of other's lists, and made my own, but none of them ever clicked. It actually took switching to Alesha Goblins (Using mana denial to control the game to let the goblins end it) that I realized the power of building true stax.
Against creatures: More heavy land destruction, less anti-spellslinger cards (Use your judgement on what to cut), and a more expanded 'finisher' suite. That's all theoretical though.
Have you considered the master of cruelties cheese win?
Yes, but its actually too slow - it takes 3 turns to kill the table with that, but it doesn't do any disruption in the process. So my opponents have plenty of time to get an answer online.
Maybe it's just me, but I really like Sneak Attack in Alesha. It just saves you a bunch of mana. Also some of these hatebears like Spirit of the Labyrinth would be very good if played at Instant.
There are also a couple of creatures that end up generating a ton of mana in Alesha - Soldevi Adnate, Generator Servant, Treasonous Ogre etc. Combined with a few "big" creatures like Duplicant that sneak into play under Alesha's trigger, I think it's possible to swing into a little more of a "big creature" theme. Doing that, it seems like some of the reanimate spells would stand to get cut.
I like Sneak Attack, but I'm not sure there are enough creatures to justify it. Definitely should get tested.
The bigger mana creatures don't work as well with the hard stax strategy. Some of the smaller creatures that make mana are cool and I'll be trying them.
all those LD-creatures might synergice with alesha but are too low impact for the approach of heavy stax .
they provide longterm value the more mana and time can be sinked into them.
that is not what the deck plays: maximum impact the moment spells resolve from the stack.
Yup!
@contamination.
the setup might be possible with alesha but manaintesive.
the point is this deck is redundant on this effect just better: armageddon/ravages/bloodMagusMoon/staticOrb/winterOrb.
for me the only upside would be: contamination kills cradle whereas winter/static orb are behind.
but as angelforge said he plays in a creature-light meta. so i guess cradle isnt a concern like in other metas. maybe yours?
Yup!
Although Cradle is still a concern because of Food Chain Prossh and Yisan, it's not as bad in a meta that has Derevis, Maraths, and other elfy value decks running around.
@jusstice
your build looks interesting but completely different than this approach.
this proves that alesha really adds variety and allows for multiple path's to be effective.
i guess none of the lists benefit from the other because directions chosen are so different.
the playstyle is another factor but still conflicting strategies can be backbreaking atleast for this approach i guess.
cheers
I agree with this. Alesha actually can do a lot of different things, but mixing strategies usually ends up with a deck that doesn't really do either plan well.
Although some mixing happens, especially in the creature base.
____
I'm not sure how I feel about cutting Necropotence. It's been steweing since I read this post originally and I still don't have a reply.
Not a huge fan of Stangelhold because its main effect in my meta is anti-tutor, and we already have that with Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindslicer.
I like Phyrexian Tower, that should work in here. I just get so sad because you can't use it to put a target in the graveyard for Alesha and pay for the trigger with the mana it makes.
Mox Opal should go and will get removed from my deck next time I'm near it.
Currently thinking about how playable Chalice of the Void is here...
"big" reply 1 complete! Another post coming soon (Along with an update to the OP decklist)
I have not found another combo that works as cleanly with our reanimation spells - do you have any ideas? These two fit in pretty well with the rest of the deck. Not getting to win off an Alesha trigger is awkward but I couldn't find anything that doesn't have that problem. And I started closing out games significantly faster with them, even taking games where I have bad control draws.
Woah, I stopped getting notifications for some reason, so I thought this thread had gotten buried! I haven't been very active, both on the internet and paper magic, so I was waiting to start playing again to make a big necro/update. I'll get around to reading these and replying when I have free time, but I have not forgotten the deck!
I recently updated my Tappedout with it's pimp status... we're a long ways to go but we'll get there!
Eh. I play Defense Grid in mono-black storm and it's really good there. Just drop it the turn you're going off.
Defense grid doesnt turn off your own disruption in mono black.
That's not relevant if you drop it the turn you're going off. (Also, it totally does turn off all of my one piece of disruption.)
Defense Grid doesn't turn off Thoughtseize and company.
If we have 2cmc to drop a preemptive answer to their counterspells, we could have just used a counterspell (which has the upside of disrupting our enemies).
Part of Jeleva's strength over a non-blue fast combo build is our ability to play the control game when we need to. Part of that is being able to play on other people's turns, whether it's countering their plays, or EOT Ad Naz into untap.
As for this lists, it is not midrange, it's nearly the same full-combo glass cannons. 29 lands and nothing to do without food chain.
The midrange list I linked has Beastmaster's Ascension as an alt-win, but I think most Prossh lists are going to be Food Chain-centric. The list I play (an updated version of the primer's list, in my sig) is all-in on Food Chain.
1) Does Wheel of Fortune work good for you every time you draw it?
Yeah, 3 mana draw 7 is really good. I have drawn 7 lands before, but I was going to lose that game anyways. It's good more often then it's bad.
2) If you would have to choose ounly one between Dark Ritual and Mana Vault, what would you put in the deck?
Dark Ritual. Casts Necropotence, hides our available mana, and makes colored mana.
3) Does the deck really needs Dark Confidant? Doesn't he a bit slow since we can draw 7-15 cards at once with Necro/Nausem/Wheel ?
I don't think the deck needs Dark Confidant but in post-mulls the cantripping creatures get a lot more powerful, and he has the potential to draw us more then one. I never tutor for him but I'm always happy to see him in my opener - unless it's a turn 2 or 3 win, in which case Necro, Naz, and Wheel wouldn't have done anything either.
I can see playing that card in something like Derevi, but I don't think theres enough targets for it here. While it potentially hits a lot of things, it takes a lot of mana under stax pieces. Alesha just hits something for 2, and being in the command zone / on a creature lets us use it for no cards from hand and without paying any tax.
Does Daretti, Scrap Savant have a place here? He allows you to filter through your deck to find appropriate stax elements (and puts Alesha targets in the graveyard) while also giving you a contingency plan against Naturalize effects.
Daretti is a good card but he's a little expensive. He reanimates and fuels our graveyard, both of which are relevant, but I don't think hes good enough at 4 mana to fit here - both effects are redundant, and not worth 4 mana and a card as a one shot.
________________
I've been spamming games with fast combo lists this weekend before the mulls change(Gotta get my turn 2/3 Ad Naz-s in while I can) . I'll update and expand the OP tomorrow with some of the changes I made re: elfric's first comment, and then on Monday we get to make some larger changes. I have a feeling I'll be adding land.
This is a traditional multiplayer commander deck. I plan on expanding each section to turn this into a resource for Alesha Stax (Reddit isn't a great place for tracking information), and I find matchup guides really useful. Having a plan against top decks, knowing the cards to look out for - these are skills that are helpful in 1v1 or multiplayer regardless of meta.
Regular decks I see are: Food Chain Prossh, Jeleva Storm, Zur Doomsday, Krenko goblin combo, Selvala elf combo, Brago Stax, BUG Sidisi graveyard combo; and less frequently Derevi Stax, Boonweaver Karador, Narset combo, Damia control, Tasigur control, 5c Omni, Oona combo/control. I occasionally play online, so I don't want to warp around any specific metagame - although right now the list is designed to fight non-creature decks.
I like all your recommendations, I plan on trying out everything mentioned. Some of the bigger ones -
The 3cmc tutors could very well be too slow (Grim is especially painful at 1BB). Imperial Recruiter + Skullclamp is one of the better CA plays in the deck, but it might be too durdly to earn slots.
I haven't felt the need for more sweepers. Running one or two feels like I'll be searching my deck for them, and I don't want to see one every game (not enough creatures in the meta). If I was to add another, it would be either Pyroclasm (great tempo answer to elves and goblins) or Damnation.
The "Alesha" package (Faithless Looting, Entomb, Karmic Guide, etc) feels powerful in practice, but it might not be optimal deckbuilding. They let us attack the game from another angle, and while they're not as powerful early game compared to staxing the board, they give us a lot of mid-game strength and much wider decision trees. I can see this being a trap, though, so I'll think about some larger changes to make and try the list both with, and without, the Alesha package.
Helm/Leyline might not be needed, although I haven't felt that bears can also close out the game well enough on their own. The changes you've recommended very well could fix that problem, so I can see taking the combo out. I do want some kind of grave-hate in the 99 though - Yixlid Jailer being the spicy option. I will probably leave in the Leyline.
Alesha Stax is a competitive, non-blue mana denial deck. The goal is to prevent your opponents from playing Magic, while you develop a board and close out the game. This is not a deck meant to make friends, but if you play in a no-punches-pulled meta then it will fit in just fine.
$T4KS is an acronym for "The Four Thousand Dollar Solution". It got its name for two reasons: one, the deck cost nearly $4000.00 USD due to the deck running 8/9 pieces of power and a full set of Mishra's Workshops, and two, it played a playset of Smokestack. Now, Stax (in EDH) is used to refer to a wide range "denial" strategies, through things like taxes, Winter Orb effects, and 'lockout' cards like Stony Silence and Gaddock Teeg.
None of the Mardu generals scream power like Derevi, Zur, and Prossh. None of the Mardu generals break mana parity like Brago and Derevi do. Alesha gives the deck something else. She’s not incredibly threatening on her own, but she gives opens up a lot of options, letting the deck have unpredictable playlines, hard-to-deal with threats, and more recovery options when things go wrong.
Color Breakdown
W provides a powerful suite of hate bears, most of which have power 2 or less. It gives us MLD to fight 'stompy' ramp decks. To a lesser extent, it gives great removal and a powerful anti-creature card / wincon in Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, who basically gives the deck a free win against creature-focused combo decks like Food Chain Prossh or Elves, otherwise difficult matchups. B gives the best tutors in the game, additional reanimation spells, and access to two incredible cards: Chains of Mephistopheles and Toxic Deluge. R gives us Blood Moon (and Magus of the Moon, who conveniently has power 2 for Alesha) and some extremely powerful singletons, such as Goblin Welder, Wheel of Fortune, and Sire of Insanity.
To-Do
Mullgians, pending rules change
Early Game
Midgame
Lategame
TL;DR: Win the game
Matchups
Big creatures are difficult for the deck to deal with. Most of the deck’s creatures are small, and it’s hard to deal with things with >3 toughness. Elesh Norn is the deck’s best answer to creature combat-step decks.
I'm going to go into more detail on these in the future: Jeleva Storm, Doomsday Zur, 5C Druid, Food Chain Prossh, Brago stax, Derevi stax
Deck Changes
2/12/2016 Land Count
-1 Rishadan Port
-1 Rakdos Signet
+1 Plains
+1 Swamp
1/23/2016 Updates to reflect pre-mull changes (Re: Comments).
-1 Leyline of the Void
-1 Dismember
-1 Faithless Looting
-1 Grim Tutor
-1 Victimize
-1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Uba Mask
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+1 Loxodon Gatekeeper
+1 Chains of Mephistophles
+1 Kismet
+1 Stranglehold
______________________________
1/9/2016
+1 Null Rod
+1 Stony Silence
-1 Glowrider
-1 Vryn Wingmare
I haven't felt the impact of the Thalias at 3. Needing a Crypt or double fast start to play them turn 1 is a big negative. The Clamp synergy was nice, but all of our creatures need to be good by themselves. 3 cost 1 tax is not as big as 2 cost Turn off all artifacts. The deck has a high artifact count, so knowing when to cast a Null Rod and when to hold it is very important - Just like the Winter Orbs and the Blood Moons.
______________________________
Changes before 1/9/2016 may be found on my Tappedout profile.
About Me
I started playing a casual vampire deck with my friends in Innistrad. I wanted to start playing Magic competitively, so I built Ajundi after Eggs was banned from Modern. Eventually I moved and formed a playgroup for EDH with some friends, starting with the 2013 commander decks but quickly branching out. Now I play Food Chain Prossh, Moxnix’s Jeleva Storm, and my own creation: Alesha Stax. My playgroup plays with a vintage card pool, so while everyone doesn't play tier 1 generals, they are all playing "fully optimized" versions of their decks.
Thanks for reading! Please give me your thoughts and questions, I welcome any feedback (positive or negative) as long as it is constructive.
No, because it requires another card (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) to be playable. We just want to have a high island count which lets us play High Tide as a ritual naturally.
That's a great win! Looks like we're still in the game after our 3 wincons our exiled. That's a really sweet line. Glad to know about it before I need it in a game.
So you basically use Future/Top as your engine to fuel MOM in order to cast Jeleva a bunch to shrink everyone's library and then force everyone to draw themselves dead (including yourself) with Windfall?
Notion Thief + Twister makes everyone lose their hand. Then he spammed Jeleva a bunch (Leaving everyone with an empty library, but note that he has cards in his hand still). Then he Time Spiralled to refill his library, bounced his Notion Thief using a Chain of Vapor, and then played Windfall to make everyone else deck themselves. Honestly passing the turn with everyone having no hands and no libraries would probably have been enough, but it's better to kill your opponents then it is to let them die =]
Jeleva exiles cards out of libraries on ETB, then casts those cards when she attacks. You do not need to cast spells out of your hand to get value.
After Yidris deals combat damage to a player, spells cast out of your hand get cascade. You still have to cast spells out of your hand to get value.
There is a *huge* difference there. Jeleva actually makes value. Yidris just enhances the things you already have.
I also think Yidris the card is worse than Jeleva. She casts cards for you without having to jump through hoops. Yidris requires you to damage a player, and then also have mana and cards available to cast more spells. When you're winning he makes it easier to storm off... but you were winning there anyways. Jeleva has a much better power curve, in addition to being easier to cast early game because of the Colorless cost.
Thanks!It took a lot of work to get to this point. I had played a couple tweaked versions of other's lists, and made my own, but none of them ever clicked. It actually took switching to Alesha Goblins (Using mana denial to control the game to let the goblins end it) that I realized the power of building true stax.
Against creatures: More heavy land destruction, less anti-spellslinger cards (Use your judgement on what to cut), and a more expanded 'finisher' suite. That's all theoretical though.
Yes, but its actually too slow - it takes 3 turns to kill the table with that, but it doesn't do any disruption in the process. So my opponents have plenty of time to get an answer online.
I like Sneak Attack, but I'm not sure there are enough creatures to justify it. Definitely should get tested.
The bigger mana creatures don't work as well with the hard stax strategy. Some of the smaller creatures that make mana are cool and I'll be trying them.
Yup!
Yup!
Although Cradle is still a concern because of Food Chain Prossh and Yisan, it's not as bad in a meta that has Derevis, Maraths, and other elfy value decks running around.
I agree with this. Alesha actually can do a lot of different things, but mixing strategies usually ends up with a deck that doesn't really do either plan well.
Although some mixing happens, especially in the creature base.
____
I'm not sure how I feel about cutting Necropotence. It's been steweing since I read this post originally and I still don't have a reply.
Not a huge fan of Stangelhold because its main effect in my meta is anti-tutor, and we already have that with Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindslicer.
I like Phyrexian Tower, that should work in here. I just get so sad because you can't use it to put a target in the graveyard for Alesha and pay for the trigger with the mana it makes.
Mox Opal should go and will get removed from my deck next time I'm near it.
Currently thinking about how playable Chalice of the Void is here...
"big" reply 1 complete! Another post coming soon (Along with an update to the OP decklist)
I recently updated my Tappedout with it's pimp status... we're a long ways to go but we'll get there!
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alesha-stax-1/
Defense Grid doesn't turn off Thoughtseize and company.
If we have 2cmc to drop a preemptive answer to their counterspells, we could have just used a counterspell (which has the upside of disrupting our enemies).
Part of Jeleva's strength over a non-blue fast combo build is our ability to play the control game when we need to. Part of that is being able to play on other people's turns, whether it's countering their plays, or EOT Ad Naz into untap.
The midrange list I linked has Beastmaster's Ascension as an alt-win, but I think most Prossh lists are going to be Food Chain-centric. The list I play (an updated version of the primer's list, in my sig) is all-in on Food Chain.
Yeah, 3 mana draw 7 is really good. I have drawn 7 lands before, but I was going to lose that game anyways. It's good more often then it's bad.
Dark Ritual. Casts Necropotence, hides our available mana, and makes colored mana.
I don't think the deck needs Dark Confidant but in post-mulls the cantripping creatures get a lot more powerful, and he has the potential to draw us more then one. I never tutor for him but I'm always happy to see him in my opener - unless it's a turn 2 or 3 win, in which case Necro, Naz, and Wheel wouldn't have done anything either.
I'll be updating the link in my signature on Monday when the mulligan rules change.
I can see playing that card in something like Derevi, but I don't think theres enough targets for it here. While it potentially hits a lot of things, it takes a lot of mana under stax pieces. Alesha just hits something for 2, and being in the command zone / on a creature lets us use it for no cards from hand and without paying any tax.
Daretti is a good card but he's a little expensive. He reanimates and fuels our graveyard, both of which are relevant, but I don't think hes good enough at 4 mana to fit here - both effects are redundant, and not worth 4 mana and a card as a one shot.
________________
I've been spamming games with fast combo lists this weekend before the mulls change(Gotta get my turn 2/3 Ad Naz-s in while I can) . I'll update and expand the OP tomorrow with some of the changes I made re: elfric's first comment, and then on Monday we get to make some larger changes. I have a feeling I'll be adding land.
This is a traditional multiplayer commander deck. I plan on expanding each section to turn this into a resource for Alesha Stax (Reddit isn't a great place for tracking information), and I find matchup guides really useful. Having a plan against top decks, knowing the cards to look out for - these are skills that are helpful in 1v1 or multiplayer regardless of meta.
Regular decks I see are: Food Chain Prossh, Jeleva Storm, Zur Doomsday, Krenko goblin combo, Selvala elf combo, Brago Stax, BUG Sidisi graveyard combo; and less frequently Derevi Stax, Boonweaver Karador, Narset combo, Damia control, Tasigur control, 5c Omni, Oona combo/control. I occasionally play online, so I don't want to warp around any specific metagame - although right now the list is designed to fight non-creature decks.
I like all your recommendations, I plan on trying out everything mentioned. Some of the bigger ones -
The 3cmc tutors could very well be too slow (Grim is especially painful at 1BB). Imperial Recruiter + Skullclamp is one of the better CA plays in the deck, but it might be too durdly to earn slots.
I haven't felt the need for more sweepers. Running one or two feels like I'll be searching my deck for them, and I don't want to see one every game (not enough creatures in the meta). If I was to add another, it would be either Pyroclasm (great tempo answer to elves and goblins) or Damnation.
The "Alesha" package (Faithless Looting, Entomb, Karmic Guide, etc) feels powerful in practice, but it might not be optimal deckbuilding. They let us attack the game from another angle, and while they're not as powerful early game compared to staxing the board, they give us a lot of mid-game strength and much wider decision trees. I can see this being a trap, though, so I'll think about some larger changes to make and try the list both with, and without, the Alesha package.
Helm/Leyline might not be needed, although I haven't felt that bears can also close out the game well enough on their own. The changes you've recommended very well could fix that problem, so I can see taking the combo out. I do want some kind of grave-hate in the 99 though - Yixlid Jailer being the spicy option. I will probably leave in the Leyline.
Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for reading! Please give me your thoughts and questions, I welcome any feedback (positive or negative) as long as it is constructive.
Notion Thief + Twister makes everyone lose their hand. Then he spammed Jeleva a bunch (Leaving everyone with an empty library, but note that he has cards in his hand still). Then he Time Spiralled to refill his library, bounced his Notion Thief using a Chain of Vapor, and then played Windfall to make everyone else deck themselves. Honestly passing the turn with everyone having no hands and no libraries would probably have been enough, but it's better to kill your opponents then it is to let them die =]