Land is basically 2UR to become a 4/4 that is worse in creature combat. Not great, but it is still an ETB tapped UR land with an upside.
Nissa's Oath will miss more often than people think, though it is solid.
It hits lands, creatures and walkers. It will hit land quite often. Its a green ponder.
It is not a Ponder. It will miss more than you think.
If 60% of your deck are hits, it will still miss 6.4% of the time.
It's also fairly dead lategame if you are in a boardstate where lands are dead.
It's ETB trigger is of a similar power level to Sleight of Hand, which was never a particularly good cantrip. Playable yes, but not actively good and certainly not something to ever compare to Ponder.
Missing on 1 out of 16 is not bad, but it not designed for decks that thin on targets. If you have a more reasonable 15 misses in the deck, the odds fall to about 1.3% of a miss, or about 1 out of 80. That's pretty negligible. On the flip side of that, it gives you 3 hits, which is much better than Sleight of Hand, on about 38% of its uses. It is still no Ponder but is closer to it in a reasonable deck than Sleight of Hand.
Every time we get a new punisher card people still try to justify them as good cards.
but theres nothing implicitly good nor bad about punisher cards. They don't have to be bad. Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven are both variants on the punisher mechanic where the opponent has a choice. And they're plainly overpowered. I think the problem is that development just don't seem to grasp how to price these cards, and since getting burned by making a few OP ones, they've played it safe by making them ridiculously bad each time. I mean, its easy for this 5 CMC card to be a worse effect than a blightning.
I think development should really grasp the concept of:
A card that gives an opponent a choice is worth less than the least of the options, made worse by the disparity of the options, made better by your ability to manipulate that choice
because the way they price these cards doesn't reflect that. It could have costed 4 mana and still failed to 1:1 with a siege rhino
The cards you listed give the player casting the spell the final choice, and the cards that are not chosen go to the graveyard where they are often usable anyway. Normal punisher cards give every single choice to the opponent. There has not been a single good card like this. The sooner people realize this, the better off they will be.
Desecration Demon. Vexing Devil. Heck, in the strictest definition, Mana Leak and Daze qualify, too. Punisher cards are rarely successful, but the ones that do make an impact are ones which strip choice away from the opponent, or at least help reach that point. Take Desecration Demon, for instance. If a player keeps the other side clear, the opponent simply has no say, effectively making it a 6/6 beater for 4 mana. Plus, its punisher ability facilitates in getting to a no-choice state, especially in multiples. I think it's unproductive to simply dismiss all punisher cards merely for being punisher cards. What should be asked is whether players have any significant control in the opponent's choice making. With that said, I have no hopes for Remorseless Punishment in particular. I just can't see how I could control both the opponent's field and hand size to make this card a reliable 10 dmg, especially in this grindy recursion heavy Standard season.
Desecration Demon will always be in play. It is not a one time thing. Vexing Devil has never been good, and I challenge anyone to point out a single GP Top 8 with a Vexing Devil. If you want to qualify counterspells as punisher cards then I see no reason to go any further in the conversation.
Oath of Nissa seems very good. But one another note, would it have killed them to either make the manland a 4/1 to begin with or to give the ability a may clause so it can be aggressive while actually still dodging bolt? I mean, it costs 4 to activate.
^^^^^^This
They should have had it start as a 4/1 and then change to a 1/4 if needed. I would assume the only reason they did it was for damaged based removal because of awaken in standard. Or they could have made it activate for 1UR. As it is it's not great, but not terrible. The only problem I see with it is that it ports directly into twin and doesn't really fit any of the tempo based UR decks. If they were trying to make sure it wasn't too powerful for twin they actually did a very poor job. However, they have stated many times they don't test for modern, but I'm sure they at least keep it in the back of their minds.
I don't think the manland is necessarily "bad", because hitting for 4 is always nice out of a manland, however if your playing jeskai, grixis, basically any three color deck and not just izzet then all of the other manland choices are probably better. I haven't got around to testing it yet so this is all just theory from me at this point.
Give me an example of when you'd want Needle Spires over Wandering Fumarole.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
You should take that 1/4 body and be thankful it doesn't die to a gentle breeze unless you tell it to.
I was going to bash the U/R manland as the worst in the cycle, but the fact that it is the only one that isn't a glorified keyrune, combined with the steaming pile that is the B/G one, stays my tongue. As a creature, it is entirely forgettable and not likely to make a splash in Modern, where 4/5ths of the original cycle is playable.
As for Nissa's Oath, I am impressed. It is, when properly built around, Anticipate for with the potential to enable a new archetype (Superfriends!) on its own or enable crazier things (BolasTron!) in existing archetypes. That's not bad for a 1-drop enchantment.
B/G has always been my favorite color combination, and I have been spoiled by how much good stuff comes in that particular pair, but this feels like a kick in the junk. This is by far the weakest manland I have seen. Lavaclaw Reaches is widely considered the weakest of the previous cycle, but it is head and shoulders above this trash. Deathtouch bears are not good creatures without significant upside.
I saw an interesting deck that used Congregation at Dawn to do things with creatures on the top of your deck. This seems like something interesting to try.
I must be crazy. People are comparing this to Jeering Instigator, somewhat positively, and Zealous Conscripts, as almost "strictly worse". I see it as a more versatile, mostly better, Conscripts. I played with Conscripts a fair amount during Innistrad Standard and I can't tell you the number of times I had to just cast it for board presence, or sat with it dead in my hand on 3 or 4 mana. Red decks usually don't care to get to 5 mana, but like having something to do if you get there and this card is Conscripts fixed for that issue.
You might want to read Zealous Conscripts again. Yes, it does say "permanent". I don't know if you ever stole their Planeswalker who's about to go ultimate, their True Conviction or their Cavern of Souls with a relevant creature type, but trust me, Zealous Conscripts was and is an insane card. I'm not saying that this card is bad by any stretch (I valued it quite highly earlier on this thread) but it does require basically two "colors" and can only threaten a creature rather then a permanent. It can be cast for cheaper, but then it's a different card entirely. I'm not sure exactly how it balances each other in the end, but it does so in Zealous Conscripts favor.
I did say that I played with it a fair bit. Yes, that included stealing a Liliana of the Veil and ulting her and stealing a Collective Blessing and swinging for a crapton. It was far more common, however, for it to sit in my hand doing nothing and I wished it was just a Spike Jester instead.
I must be crazy. People are comparing this to Jeering Instigator, somewhat positively, and Zealous Conscripts, as almost "strictly worse". I see it as a more versatile, mostly better, Conscripts. I played with Conscripts a fair amount during Innistrad Standard and I can't tell you the number of times I had to just cast it for board presence, or sat with it dead in my hand on 3 or 4 mana. Red decks usually don't care to get to 5 mana, but like having something to do if you get there and this card is Conscripts fixed for that issue.
edit: fastlands are also great from my experience but don't put too many.
Fastlands aren't really a budget option. Blackcleave Cliffs is currently $18.58 at tcgplayer mid and is the one you would want most. City of Brass/Mana Confluence are okay for 5-color versions and aren't terribly expensive. Painlands are pretty cheap and readily available, so if you are going 2 or 3 color, I would go with those.
Double strike is the single most important skill for Soulflayer to acquire, followed by Haste, evasion (Flying/Trample) and protection (Hexproof/Indestructible). Lifelink is nice, but not required and the rest are negligible. If you are looking for a card a card in Standard that works amazingly with Soulflayer, look no further than Aven Sunstriker. Double strike and evasion on one card is the reason we here like Prophetic Flamespeaker. Flamespeaker is better on its own as it is a source of card advantage, but as an unplayed uncommon currently in Standard, the Aven is dirt cheap to acquire. The cards you listed are all good, just remember what makes a good Soulflayer and you will be fine.
In addition to Faithless Looting and Grisly Salvage, other good fueling cards include Thought Scour, Gather the Pack, Commune with the Gods and Hunter's Instincts. Depending on how competitive versus budget friendly you want your deck to be would determine what kind of mana-base to build. Fetchlands help this deck go by fueling Soulflayer's Delve, making a Turn 2 Flayer possible, but at about $20 each for the cheap ones, they aren't nice on the wallet. Painlands are cheaper, but aren't very good in this deck, being slower, less consistent and often more painful than a Fetchland+Shockland base. For the 5-Color version, Mana Confluence/City of Brass work, but once again are slow and painful. Man-lands are even slower, and this deck really isn't interested in the late-game inevitability that man-lands provide.
Gemstone Caverns feels like a trap. It can theoretically power out a turn 1 Soulflayer, but it demands you go second in a deck that would much rather go first otherwise. It also puts you at card disadvantage if you use it, which you are already doing by playing Faithless Looting. Simian Spirit Guide is a similar trap. It is card disadvantage in a deck that doesn't maximize the upside. As for Tracker's Instincts, it is almost strictly worse than Grisly Salvage for our purposes. If we wanted more copies of that effect, I would probably go for Gather the Pack instead, as you don't have to take a creature if you don't want to, which we often don't, and digs one deeper on the first cast. For the most part I would rather just have more creatures. Also note Chromanticore is better fuel for Soulflayer than Sphinx of the Steel Wind and can be hardcast faster.
Hi, Alec Wilson, designer of the Soulflayer - powder deck. Just thought I'd check out the thread and make a point or two.
1) Spirit guide + Looting is not the only way to get a turn 1 monster flayer. Turn 0 Caverns-Thought Scour + fetchlands can also enable a turn 1 flayer. 'Turn 1' here doesn't just mean a resolved flayer (that's trivial), but a flayer with a set of relevant keywords that can actually win a game.
I don't know the numbers, but the Serum Powder/Gemstone Caverns + Pull From Eternity seems like a horribly inconsistent combo with very little payoff. Even with a perfect hand, You aren't doing anything quickly. Turn 3 win is out the window. This really just looks like it wants to be the Gifts Ungiven list, which could be a viable plan, but is a completely different deck than the original intent of this thread. The original deck wanted to kill quickly with a hasty, double-striking Soulflayer. The Esper lists look like Unburial Gifts decks with a Soulflayer Plan B. Vengevine stays on the same line as the original, beating down with a hasted threat on turn 2, while also feeding Soulflayer if necessary.
2) The powder interaction is not an inconsistent combo, I assure you - mostly because it's not a combo at all but a neat synergy. Each of those cards is doing important work here alone, it just so happens you get a helpful interaction between each of them which improves your odds of it coming together:
a) Serum Powder is fantastic here, as you need to mulligan a lot, and Powder mulligans while taking things you don't really want to draw out of your deck. Serum Powder also ensures you get paid off for taking the draw by ramping past your opponent with Caverns, and it finds Leylines close to 100% of the time. The fact that sometimes it lays out a suite of cards to Pull is just gravy.
b) Caverns is one of only three broken turn-1 mana accelerators legal in modern, and it actually gives you 1 free additional mana before the game even starts if you play 1 mana instants. I am just as happy to be casting Thought Scour or Spoils of the Vault off my Caverns, and it's the reason you get to do so much so early. In the typical case of a turn-2 nut flayer, it's generated 3 mana more than you're supposed to have had access to.
c) Pull from Eternity lets you rebuy a key card that got delved, got powdered or got exiled to Caverns, or even a spell that got flashed back. It lets you sculpt your first soulflayer or set up your second.
Now, it just so happens that Pull is also a 1 mana instant, and it just so happens that if you powder or delve, it is functionally a tutor as well. Those are nice synergies, but each card is doing fine and important work in your opening hand with or without either of the other two.
3) If you're looking to win anything deep, obviously this experimental list is not what you are looking for. But then, I'm not convinced soulflayer is the card you're looking for at all in that case! This deck is just an experiment to see how far the card Soulflayer can be stretched. A turn 1-3 doublestrike flying haste hexproof lifelinker is surprisingly good in Modern, however, and I then just tuned it to be the best deck it can be at producing a broken, non-interactive soulflayer and winning the games it can win, which is mainly trolling burn, zoo and merfolk.
After going a few rounds with the deck in Forge, I was impressed, but not with the Serum Powder/Gemstone Cavern + Pull From Eternity interaction, but rather with some of the options that going 5-color opens up to you. After 5 matches (3 Grixis Delver and 2 Soul Chamber) and more mulligans than I care to count, I decided to try a 5-Color list that cut the cutesy Pull From Eternity stuff. Here is the list I put together:
I put this deck through the same five rounds as the other list. From this deck, the manabase needs to be completely reworked and 4 Unburial Rites is too many. Spark Trooper, Mantis Rider and Drogskol Reaver were all-stars, Reaver doubly so when unburied. Thought Scour is almost as good as Faithless Looting as a Turn 1 play. Cutting back down to two Unburial Rites and two Grisly Salvage would open up spaces for more creatures, which the deck hungers for.
Here's a deck by Alec Wilson. This deck uses Serum Powder, Gemstone Caverns, and Pull from Eternity as main engine to basically tutor a card into graveyard. Pull from Eternity can be used as an Entomb to grab a creature with relevant keyword for Soulflayer or used to flashback Unburial Rites. I haven't tested this deck personally but it an interesting approach that hasn't been mentioned here so I though I should share.
I don't know the numbers, but the Serum Powder/Gemstone Caverns + Pull From Eternity seems like a horribly inconsistent combo with very little payoff. Even with a perfect hand, You aren't doing anything quickly. Turn 3 win is out the window. This really just looks like it wants to be the Gifts Ungiven list, which could be a viable plan, but is a completely different deck than the original intent of this thread. The original deck wanted to kill quickly with a hasty, double-striking Soulflayer. The Esper lists look like Unburial Gifts decks with a Soulflayer Plan B. Vengevine stays on the same line as the original, beating down with a hasted threat on turn 2, while also feeding Soulflayer if necessary.
Pumps...
As for Nissa's Oath, I am impressed. It is, when properly built around, Anticipate for
In addition to Faithless Looting and Grisly Salvage, other good fueling cards include Thought Scour, Gather the Pack, Commune with the Gods and Hunter's Instincts. Depending on how competitive versus budget friendly you want your deck to be would determine what kind of mana-base to build. Fetchlands help this deck go by fueling Soulflayer's Delve, making a Turn 2 Flayer possible, but at about $20 each for the cheap ones, they aren't nice on the wallet. Painlands are cheaper, but aren't very good in this deck, being slower, less consistent and often more painful than a Fetchland+Shockland base. For the 5-Color version, Mana Confluence/City of Brass work, but once again are slow and painful. Man-lands are even slower, and this deck really isn't interested in the late-game inevitability that man-lands provide.
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Cairn Wanderer
4 Drogskol Reaver
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Mantis Rider
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Soulflayer
1 Spark Trooper
4 Faithless Looting
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Unburial Rites
4 Thought Scour
Land
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Wooded Foothills
I put this deck through the same five rounds as the other list. From this deck, the manabase needs to be completely reworked and 4 Unburial Rites is too many. Spark Trooper, Mantis Rider and Drogskol Reaver were all-stars, Reaver doubly so when unburied. Thought Scour is almost as good as Faithless Looting as a Turn 1 play. Cutting back down to two Unburial Rites and two Grisly Salvage would open up spaces for more creatures, which the deck hungers for.