What I'm not sure on is the replacements though. The Deprives have actually been great in my testing, going from 1x SB to 2x SB to 2x MD. They could be Leaks or Snares if warranted, but I like having just a catchall answer at all points in the game. This leaves really one flex slot - the Claim // Fame. What do you think should be there? I want a business spell, and I've toyed between these options:
- 1x Sleight of Hand (Don't like as I mentioned above)
- 1x Opt (better than Sleight, but not sure it's worth a slot)
- 1x Claim // Fame (rebuys Snaps and GDS. I think of it as a cheaper replacement for K. Command)
- 1x Discard (Inquisition or Duress)
- 1x LotV (don't like as it's expensive and I'm looking to be aggressive)
- 1x Counterspell (Snare most likely, potentially Spell Pierce / Stubborn Denial which has the added benefit of freeing up a sideboard slot)
Any insights?
If not for the Deprives--which I haven't gotten to try out myself, but would like to--I would advocate for the first LotV. Given them, I think I would start with Opt. Also, I'm not a big fan of the card, but I exactly one maindeck Temur Battle Rage can be reasonable.
Not a fan of the Battle Rage really - I typically am winning if I'm gotten a creature to stick. I want cards to help make it stick or grind them back.
Have you tested Opt? Just don't see it being a big benefit to the deck since a lot of what we do is Sorc speed (discard and creatures) - yes, holding up a counter is nice (and might push builds towards a more Deprive / Counter focued build, potentially dropping IoK), but is Scry 1 really that great?
I've been thinking of going -1x Snapcaster +1x Claim // Fame.
I think there's a good case for only 3 Snapcaster; I'm trying it out myself at the moment. However, I don't think Claim // Fame is a worthwhile addition. Marc Tobiasch gives a pretty succinct explanation why here.
- 1x Snapcaster
- 1x Sleight of Hand
- 1x Kolaghan's Command
I'm pretty sold on the cuts - I agree that 4x Snap is usually too many, I think that Sleight of Hand is just straight not a good card, and Kolaghan's Command is expensive - I'm fine having 1x MD and 1x SB.
What I'm not sure on is the replacements though. The Deprives have actually been great in my testing, going from 1x SB to 2x SB to 2x MD. They could be Leaks or Snares if warranted, but I like having just a catchall answer at all points in the game. This leaves really one flex slot - the Claim // Fame. What do you think should be there? I want a business spell, and I've toyed between these options:
- 1x Sleight of Hand (Don't like as I mentioned above)
- 1x Opt (better than Sleight, but not sure it's worth a slot)
- 1x Claim // Fame (rebuys Snaps and GDS. I think of it as a cheaper replacement for K. Command)
- 1x Discard (Inquisition or Duress)
- 1x LotV (don't like as it's expensive and I'm looking to be aggressive)
- 1x Counterspell (Snare most likely, potentially Spell Pierce / Stubborn Denial which has the added benefit of freeing up a sideboard slot)
Three questions I'd love some feedback on and to know if anyone else has tested:
1. Has anyone toyed with going down to 3x Snapcaster? I know the kneejerk reaction of "Snap is one of the best cards in Modern why would you ever cut it" is strong, but in general I don't want to see more than 2, especially not early. When coupled with the heavy reliance on Delve creatures, my yard is often pretty sparse. We don't play a lot of 3-4 mana cards for a reason - we're a 18-19 land deck (with usually only 7 fetchables (5 Shcoks and 2 basics) and Thought Scour potentially knocking some of those out). Coupled with the fact that in 3-4 weeks of playing the deck I've never once Snap-K Command-Snap as 5 mana is SO much in this deck and requires getting to pretty late in the game - usually I just want to end as much as possible.
I've been thinking of going -1x Snapcaster +1x Claim // Fame.
2. Similar to the first question, I've been thinking of running down to 1x K. Command in the main and 0 in the side (current 2x MD and 0x SB). Again, it's exspenive - maybe moving to 1x MB and 1x SB would be better?
3. I often see 2x Collective Brutality in the board. What matchups do you bring these in? What modes do you often use? I would imagine -2/-2 and discard, but when are you using this? Dork based matchups (NH, Birds, etc.)? Burn?
Throughout all 4 Matches Deprive was absolutly amazing, to be fair all the matchups were perfect for the card.
Round 1 vs Eldrazi Tron (2:0)
Game 1: I manage to counter his first Threat with deprive (TKS) and a couple resolved creatures quickly finish him while more counterspells protect me from whatever he might try.
Game 2: He nut draws me but i nut draw back. He goes double temple TKS but it runs into a rejection. Next round he tries TKS again but it too runs into a deprive. Eventually he resoves a couple of matter reshapers but I find a Shadow and delve fatty and overrun him with additional counters in hand.
Round 2 vs RG Valakut (2:0)
Game 1: The main reason for Deprive's inclusion in the deck. It won me game 1 by countering a Titan he pacted for after I stripped all other payoff cards with discard.
Game 2: Similar to game 1 but this time i get to counter his camelion colossus and have to terminate the Titan. Luckily he was dead on the crackback.
Round 3 vs Burn (2:0)
Game 1: I am terrible at playing this matchup so I was expecting to get my ass handed to me, however I drew a both deprives and a stub which made G1 surprisingly easy.
Game 2: started the game with a Thoughtseize, IoK and Brutality and finished it with a shadow with a counter for whatever outs he might have had.
Round 4 vs Ad Nauseam (2:1)
Game 1: Contrary to the Burn matchup I expected to have this be a easy win however G1 i drew no hand disruption and he managed to combo me through a counterspell by turn 4.
Game 2: He opens with leyline however I drew multiple counterspells and Snapcasters which allowed me to beat him regardless.
Game 3: This time he didnt have leyline and I drew both counters and Discard. No real contest here.
Overall I was super happy with my List and even though those were some of the dream matchups for deprive I have been very impressed with the card in grixis shadow for a while now.
The drawback of picking up a Land dosn't matter at all most of the time and and sometimes even is a upside (about as often as it is a real downside in my expirience so far)
The biggest issue with it is the UU cost but especially with both Tron and Valakut variants being very popular right now I feel like it should be worth a concideration.
Thanks for reading.
cheers
Hey there,
Thanks for the write up. I'm trying a similar list but with Deprives in the side - never thought about moving to the maindeck.
One very specific question for you: I also shaved a Blood Crypt to run Deprive, but differ in the replacement. I now run 3x Watery Grave, 1x Vents, 1x Crypt. You seem to have gone -1x Crypt +1x Vents. Why did you choose Vents over Grave? I think the importance of turn 1 B far outweighs needing red, although our list also differs in that I go -1x Bolt +1x Push.
I'd personally drop the Gideon and Elspeth for 2 more Lillys - Lilly is just insanely more powerful than both of them and is a 3 mana win con herself against a lot of decks. Elspeth is so expensive and you're already doing well against grindy strategies with Souls and Nahiri. Gideon just turns on opponent's Paths that would otherwise be dead.
I'd also drop the Pias - with Walls and Souls, you're really trying to ideally go Turn 1 interaction (Discard or Bolt), turn 2 interaction or Wall, turn 3 Souls or Lilly, and turn 4 Nahiri. There just aren't many decks that can beat that line. Wall is a great T2 play that sets up a nice defense for your win cons of Nahiri and Lilly.
How have you been liking Faithless Looting? I've never thought of using that before but seems pretty good - let's us turn duplicate Opals / Ruins / Mill rocks into useful cards.
So I'm going over the Shadows Over Innistrad spoiler, and I am wondering what people's opinions are about the following cards:
Vessel of Nascency - Potential Ancient Stirrings 5-8. While it is a little bit slower, it not giving us a card until we want it to helps out Ensnaring Bridge. Personally I think the deck might have room for 2 or 3 of these, and if it turns out to work as well as Stirrings, maybe even going up to 4. I think this may be a great way to add even more consistency to the deck.
Sinister Concoction - Like Vessel, this card is great at sitting in play until we need it's effect, helping out Bridges stay at 0. What's also really interested is that the cost of activating this may be quite beneficial since we get to essentially Codex Shredder our deck without having to actually use any of our mill rocks. Again, we need to figure out which flex slots could support this card, but it does seem like it has potential.
Pick the Brain - This is obviously a sideboard card, and while that while I am very skeptical of, could still have a lot of good play in the deck. Lantern is a deck that doesn't have any trouble turning on Delirium, especially if we start slotting in the above 2 Enchantments. As such, being able to strip a good piece of interaction from an opponent's hand, and then grabbing all those copies they have and exiling them seems amazing. Worried about World Breakers? Bye bye. Hurkyl's Recall? Your opponent better not tap out with it in hand. Obviously it costing 3 mana is a HUGE downside, which is why I am definitely a bit skeptical, but I am willing to give the card a try.
Drownyard Temple - This would obviously be in the land flex slot, and whether or not this would be any could can be answered by answering the following question: Is having a 3 mana Rampant Growth that is instant speed, uncounterable, and castable from the graveyard beneficial for the deck? If yes, then this can be good. If no, it's useless.
Hey there! I've been doing the same thing and after a lot of testing, the only card that I think is remotely playable is Vessel.
Vessel - I think it fits as a 2-of in the MD. After Eldrazi is banned, I expect to see lots of Grixis, UW, Jund, and linear aggro decks, so I cut my 2x Spellskites (turns off all those Terminates, Paths, Cuts) and added 2x of these. It's been working really great. It is a LARGE mana investment (big difference between 1 and 3) so I think 2x is the correct number. Its high points include that it
A) Sits on the board instead of hand, potentially helping Ensnaring Bridge.
B) Puts the other three 3 cards in your GY, helping our recursion with Ruins / Shredder plan.
C) Also grabs Enchantments, meaning it can grab the other one of these or the 1x Grid.
Concoction - Generally, we don't want creature removal, and I don't see this card as a reason to change that. The only creatures we care about are those that either:
A) Have an activated ability that circumvents our Bridges - Pridemage (destroys artifacts) or Lavamancer (repeated damage without attacking) come to mind here (Scavenging Ooze can be a pain but it isn't winning them the game) - these are handled by Needle
B) Have an ETB effect that hurts us, such as Reclamation Sage, at which point - who cares if we kill it?
There's a corner case where we care about 0 power creatures - namely Ornithopter and Hierarch - but Grid already shuts them down nicely while also serving as a win-con.
Pick - Not good. Hitting Delirium isn't quite as easy as you think - we don't run fetches, most of our artifacts don't die, and (in my build) no creatures either. Even if we did hit it easily, we need early disruption and a late lock, not late disruption. This card requires that the card that crushes us both A) be in their hand and B) be in their hand on our turn, meaning they didn't just cast it last turn. If you want a card that performs this function, Slaughter Games is way, way better as it doesn't require them to have the card in hand, can't be countered, and doesn't require delirium all for one more mana.
Drownyard Not as good as Sea Gate. Generally, we want to sit around 3 mana for most of the game - we don't gain anything by ramping to 5 mana on turn 4 (and having to jump through a ton of hoops to get there).
If infect is such a bad matchup why not have something like one melira, sylvok outcast in the side?
It's a fairly narrow sideboard card - really only bringing it in vs. Infect. In order to see it in the matchup you need it, you'd want to play at least 2. it's just not worth two slots to improve a matchup that is basically unwinnable - focus on the matchups that are in the 40-60% range, not the 10-20% range.
One question - I've been running into a problem with any tokens based (Lingering Souls, BW tokens) and sometimes small, low to the ground (Elves, Affinity) based decks. Things like Zoo, etc. that can't crap out tons of creatures per turn I usually have no problem with.
I run 1x Staticaster, 1x Pyroclasm, 1x Anger of the Gods in the side. I'm thinking of adding 1x Night of Soul's Betrayal in the side to deal with tokens and Elves, but came across Festercreep and wanted your thoughts on it. The problem I have with Night is that I can often mill it or it can come down too late.
With Festercreep, I can mill and return it with a K. Command, wipe the board a turn earlier (important in the world of T3 Elvish Archdruids, etc.). Any thoughts? Too cute?
Has anyone tried Izzet Charm in any of these lists? Seems like a fine replacement for a 1-of Deprive or Mana Leak as all three modes are highly relevant for us:
- Kill a dork / chump blocker / Scooze to let our Delver / Pyromancer through
- Counter that Lilly / Scapeshift / Rest in Peace (?)
- Dig for an answer / fatty while simultaneously fueling Delve / Snapcaster
Here's my current list - I've made a lot of recent changes and am fairly happy with this build:
- 1 Island / +1 Sulfur Falls or +1 Darkslick Shores: I've recently gone down on Deprives from 2 to 1 and SB Blood Moons from 3 to 2 - I think I can make this change without impacting myself too much. Ideally I'd play a UR fast land, but since that doesn't exist I'm stuck with one of these options.
-1 Darkblast / +1 Kolaghan's Command: KCommand is so insanely good that I've replaced one of my Electrolyzes with it. I've been on this card since it was spoiled and it has never let me down, often netting me a removal spell + rebuy of Snapcaster. However, when Darkblast is good, it can also be insanely good - it helps fuel Delve (which might not be as needed anymore as I cut one Murderous Cut for a Terminate) and can be a mirror breaker on it's own. It's great against dorks, but those have been disappearing as of late. Good game against Affinity and Infect as well, but KCommand is also a house against these decks. Tough call - I want a second KCommand but don't know where to make it fit.
-x Remand / +x ??: Remand has performed well, but I'm wondering if this should be something like +1 Mana Leak / +1 Anticipate. Don't know if I need more card selection - I don't think I want to go below 6 counters.
As for the sideboard, I'd love to squeeze 2-3x Thoughtseize in for combo decks but don't know what to cut. I've recently cut the Dragon's Claws as they're just too slow against Burn and only give them a Revelry target - I replaced them with 2x more Dispel (similar to Alfonso).
Quick question. How does playing 5-6 sources of delve cards not prohibitively interact with snapcaster mage? It seems like the old problem you run into when playin grim lavamancer and snap together.
The great thing about the deck is how easy it is to fill the graveyard with cards. Even with only 5 delve sources, most likely 3 tasigur, and 2 murderous cut, tasigur helps refill the grave with his ability, and you only need to drop one, not in multiples, and cut i actually sometimes flash it back with snapcaster paying 1 for it. Thought Scour is certainly the key that ensures the grave is filled for our shenanigans
This, and the fact that once you learn the deck and which spells are critical in what matches, you can generally Delve around key spells even when your graveyard isn't chock full of options. Sometimes it's better to wait a turn to resolve Tasigur and instead hold up Snapcaster and a spell. Other times you can resolve Taz for more than 1 mana and leave behind the best Snapcaster targets. And sometimes, you simply don't have Snapcaster in hand but want to Delve the full amount, so you take a risk and exile it all. The deck will almost always be able to cough up relevant targets again later in the game, and Snapcaster is a lategame spell. In general though, you always want to leave behind the Bolts, Cantrips, and Counterspells when possible, while exiling lands, creatures, and less exciting spells.
Be careful - not always the best to exile lands. Sometimes leaving lands in to trim your targets for Tasigur's ability is correct.
I'm not exactly sure when I'd ever really Entomb for it - when do you want it?
Doesn't this build basically fold to a Ghost Quarter?
Not a fan of the Battle Rage really - I typically am winning if I'm gotten a creature to stick. I want cards to help make it stick or grind them back.
Have you tested Opt? Just don't see it being a big benefit to the deck since a lot of what we do is Sorc speed (discard and creatures) - yes, holding up a counter is nice (and might push builds towards a more Deprive / Counter focued build, potentially dropping IoK), but is Scry 1 really that great?
So here's my current list: https://deckbox.org/sets/1678099
The flex spots I see are:
+ 2x Deprive
+ 1x Claim // Fame
- 1x Snapcaster
- 1x Sleight of Hand
- 1x Kolaghan's Command
I'm pretty sold on the cuts - I agree that 4x Snap is usually too many, I think that Sleight of Hand is just straight not a good card, and Kolaghan's Command is expensive - I'm fine having 1x MD and 1x SB.
What I'm not sure on is the replacements though. The Deprives have actually been great in my testing, going from 1x SB to 2x SB to 2x MD. They could be Leaks or Snares if warranted, but I like having just a catchall answer at all points in the game. This leaves really one flex slot - the Claim // Fame. What do you think should be there? I want a business spell, and I've toyed between these options:
- 1x Sleight of Hand (Don't like as I mentioned above)
- 1x Opt (better than Sleight, but not sure it's worth a slot)
- 1x Claim // Fame (rebuys Snaps and GDS. I think of it as a cheaper replacement for K. Command)
- 1x Discard (Inquisition or Duress)
- 1x LotV (don't like as it's expensive and I'm looking to be aggressive)
- 1x Counterspell (Snare most likely, potentially Spell Pierce / Stubborn Denial which has the added benefit of freeing up a sideboard slot)
Any insights?
Three questions I'd love some feedback on and to know if anyone else has tested:
1. Has anyone toyed with going down to 3x Snapcaster? I know the kneejerk reaction of "Snap is one of the best cards in Modern why would you ever cut it" is strong, but in general I don't want to see more than 2, especially not early. When coupled with the heavy reliance on Delve creatures, my yard is often pretty sparse. We don't play a lot of 3-4 mana cards for a reason - we're a 18-19 land deck (with usually only 7 fetchables (5 Shcoks and 2 basics) and Thought Scour potentially knocking some of those out). Coupled with the fact that in 3-4 weeks of playing the deck I've never once Snap-K Command-Snap as 5 mana is SO much in this deck and requires getting to pretty late in the game - usually I just want to end as much as possible.
I've been thinking of going -1x Snapcaster +1x Claim // Fame.
2. Similar to the first question, I've been thinking of running down to 1x K. Command in the main and 0 in the side (current 2x MD and 0x SB). Again, it's exspenive - maybe moving to 1x MB and 1x SB would be better?
3. I often see 2x Collective Brutality in the board. What matchups do you bring these in? What modes do you often use? I would imagine -2/-2 and discard, but when are you using this? Dork based matchups (NH, Birds, etc.)? Burn?
Hey there,
Thanks for the write up. I'm trying a similar list but with Deprives in the side - never thought about moving to the maindeck.
One very specific question for you: I also shaved a Blood Crypt to run Deprive, but differ in the replacement. I now run 3x Watery Grave, 1x Vents, 1x Crypt. You seem to have gone -1x Crypt +1x Vents. Why did you choose Vents over Grave? I think the importance of turn 1 B far outweighs needing red, although our list also differs in that I go -1x Bolt +1x Push.
I'd personally drop the Gideon and Elspeth for 2 more Lillys - Lilly is just insanely more powerful than both of them and is a 3 mana win con herself against a lot of decks. Elspeth is so expensive and you're already doing well against grindy strategies with Souls and Nahiri. Gideon just turns on opponent's Paths that would otherwise be dead.
I'd also drop the Pias - with Walls and Souls, you're really trying to ideally go Turn 1 interaction (Discard or Bolt), turn 2 interaction or Wall, turn 3 Souls or Lilly, and turn 4 Nahiri. There just aren't many decks that can beat that line. Wall is a great T2 play that sets up a nice defense for your win cons of Nahiri and Lilly.
Hey there! I've been doing the same thing and after a lot of testing, the only card that I think is remotely playable is Vessel.
Vessel - I think it fits as a 2-of in the MD. After Eldrazi is banned, I expect to see lots of Grixis, UW, Jund, and linear aggro decks, so I cut my 2x Spellskites (turns off all those Terminates, Paths, Cuts) and added 2x of these. It's been working really great. It is a LARGE mana investment (big difference between 1 and 3) so I think 2x is the correct number. Its high points include that it
A) Sits on the board instead of hand, potentially helping Ensnaring Bridge.
B) Puts the other three 3 cards in your GY, helping our recursion with Ruins / Shredder plan.
C) Also grabs Enchantments, meaning it can grab the other one of these or the 1x Grid.
Concoction - Generally, we don't want creature removal, and I don't see this card as a reason to change that. The only creatures we care about are those that either:
A) Have an activated ability that circumvents our Bridges - Pridemage (destroys artifacts) or Lavamancer (repeated damage without attacking) come to mind here (Scavenging Ooze can be a pain but it isn't winning them the game) - these are handled by Needle
B) Have an ETB effect that hurts us, such as Reclamation Sage, at which point - who cares if we kill it?
There's a corner case where we care about 0 power creatures - namely Ornithopter and Hierarch - but Grid already shuts them down nicely while also serving as a win-con.
Pick - Not good. Hitting Delirium isn't quite as easy as you think - we don't run fetches, most of our artifacts don't die, and (in my build) no creatures either. Even if we did hit it easily, we need early disruption and a late lock, not late disruption. This card requires that the card that crushes us both A) be in their hand and B) be in their hand on our turn, meaning they didn't just cast it last turn. If you want a card that performs this function, Slaughter Games is way, way better as it doesn't require them to have the card in hand, can't be countered, and doesn't require delirium all for one more mana.
Drownyard Not as good as Sea Gate. Generally, we want to sit around 3 mana for most of the game - we don't gain anything by ramping to 5 mana on turn 4 (and having to jump through a ton of hoops to get there).
It's a fairly narrow sideboard card - really only bringing it in vs. Infect. In order to see it in the matchup you need it, you'd want to play at least 2. it's just not worth two slots to improve a matchup that is basically unwinnable - focus on the matchups that are in the 40-60% range, not the 10-20% range.
I run a list fairly close to Luis' deck here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91388
One question - I've been running into a problem with any tokens based (Lingering Souls, BW tokens) and sometimes small, low to the ground (Elves, Affinity) based decks. Things like Zoo, etc. that can't crap out tons of creatures per turn I usually have no problem with.
I run 1x Staticaster, 1x Pyroclasm, 1x Anger of the Gods in the side. I'm thinking of adding 1x Night of Soul's Betrayal in the side to deal with tokens and Elves, but came across Festercreep and wanted your thoughts on it. The problem I have with Night is that I can often mill it or it can come down too late.
With Festercreep, I can mill and return it with a K. Command, wipe the board a turn earlier (important in the world of T3 Elvish Archdruids, etc.). Any thoughts? Too cute?
- Kill a dork / chump blocker / Scooze to let our Delver / Pyromancer through
- Counter that Lilly / Scapeshift / Rest in Peace (?)
- Dig for an answer / fatty while simultaneously fueling Delve / Snapcaster
Here's my current list - I've made a lot of recent changes and am fairly happy with this build:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
Instants
1 Darkblast
1 Deprive
1 Dismember
1 Electrolyze
1 Izzet Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Leak
1 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
1 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Deathmark
3 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flashfreeze
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Rending Volley
1 Spellskite
Potential changes I'm contemplating to the deck:
- 1 Island / +1 Sulfur Falls or +1 Darkslick Shores: I've recently gone down on Deprives from 2 to 1 and SB Blood Moons from 3 to 2 - I think I can make this change without impacting myself too much. Ideally I'd play a UR fast land, but since that doesn't exist I'm stuck with one of these options.
-1 Darkblast / +1 Kolaghan's Command: KCommand is so insanely good that I've replaced one of my Electrolyzes with it. I've been on this card since it was spoiled and it has never let me down, often netting me a removal spell + rebuy of Snapcaster. However, when Darkblast is good, it can also be insanely good - it helps fuel Delve (which might not be as needed anymore as I cut one Murderous Cut for a Terminate) and can be a mirror breaker on it's own. It's great against dorks, but those have been disappearing as of late. Good game against Affinity and Infect as well, but KCommand is also a house against these decks. Tough call - I want a second KCommand but don't know where to make it fit.
-x Remand / +x ??: Remand has performed well, but I'm wondering if this should be something like +1 Mana Leak / +1 Anticipate. Don't know if I need more card selection - I don't think I want to go below 6 counters.
As for the sideboard, I'd love to squeeze 2-3x Thoughtseize in for combo decks but don't know what to cut. I've recently cut the Dragon's Claws as they're just too slow against Burn and only give them a Revelry target - I replaced them with 2x more Dispel (similar to Alfonso).
Would love to hear some feedback.
Be careful - not always the best to exile lands. Sometimes leaving lands in to trim your targets for Tasigur's ability is correct.