I don't know. I hadn't heard the suggestion for 18 lands with this set so I have been running 17 and have yet to not go 3-0 or 2-1. I found the games grindy and never considered an additional land necessary as you would end up drawing into lands inevitably. It really depends on your morphs I'd say. I don't really like playing morphs that are above 5 cmc. Frequently I don't want to flip up morphs on T5 so the 55% chance I will curve out on 5 is only relevant probably 40% of the time as I would like to make the best play possible which is not always flipping up a 5 cmc creature.
I think it is an interesting build you have there. I also think that Athreo's has a strong position in it and even his buddy odunos river trawler for extra synergy. Problem is heroic and naya. Naya will outclass this build therefore the full set of downfall is warranted imo. Same thing with heroic. You board state will be outclassed unfortunately. Cards like coinsmith and guardian do best over the course of a longer game. If heroic plays unanswered this will never occur and naya can play must answer cards gaining ALOT of momentum from t3 on. Test it out against those matchups and report back will the results! Good luck.
It would be nice to cast it earlier than turn 7, but you can't really play the green mana creatures since they just die when you cast the wrath. There is font of fertility and market festival. Though market festival is more prone to getting hit by enchantment hate. Frank Karsten recommends 19 white sources to cast fated retribution on turn 7. With scrylands that figure shrinks to 16-17 white mana sources.
You can't put it into the old esper shell since the mana was really bad. You'd have to cut all the double blue or double black cards to play it.
Then if you only play 2 colors, you only get to play 8 scry lands, instead of 12. You could play mana confluence, but there is not that many good life gain cards (specifically ones that don't die to creature removal.
I think you have provided excellent arguments against fated ret here. The card's effects would only really work in a true control deck but its mana cost makes it unplayable in such a deck. As you've stated rampers are contradictory to the reason for casting the card in the first place. Sooooo, the card sucks in my opinion.
Thanks a lot for your helpful reply. I'll have a look at Naya and BUG, and take it from there. I did see that Junk with Courser and Caryatid is a thing, and I wasn't expecting to get a T5 Elspeth out consistently, but I was thinking that maybe I wouldn't need ramp that sorely if I spent them on control cards instead to stall the game. I know from a similar standard deck though that it's a huge step up from 5 to 6 mana.
True but there are a couple more reasons to play carytid for ramp and subsequently replace gild with a a set of silence the beliebers. Carytid and courser help put you on curve and ramp. Silence is downright better than gild because it is instant speed. But with the courser/carytid start, silence is consistently a 2 for 1 in late game situations against certain decks. It is the closest thing BG has to a sweep and can outright win games.
I'm pretty new to block, and I want to get into it with a BW midrange deck. This is a sketch, I'd love for you to lay your experienced eyes on it before I get it together in case I've made some terrible assumptions about the format or have made some terrible card choices for the format.
The strategy should be pretty evident, it's run of the mill control/midrange where you attempt to control the board and shred the hand until you're ready to take over with Brimaz or Elspeth, or a small creature with Godsend. Brimaz sits through Elspeth's wipe and should be able to deal with everything Elspeth doesn't. Seize and Maggot should help protect the pair. Nyx-Fleece Ram stalls against aggro and pretty much only dies to removal that kills Brimaz. I like the full sets of Banishing Light and Downfall because they're not dead against control. Gild alongside Temple and Read the Bones is meant to let me get Elspeth out on turn 5, but maybe that's not a good enough reason to play Gild. Against aggro I'd side out the hand disruption package and the slowest removal out for some combination of Drown in Sorrow, Pharika's Chosen, Oppressive Rays and the last two sheep.
Does this look like it could be viable with some tweaking? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Very cool. This archetype crossed my mind once earlier on but I have not explored it. Thing is, carytid and courser are just too good to not run in this deck. The argument is that carytid and courser are relevant because they are the best aggro stuffing bodies in the format besides brimaz. On top of that, carytid in other decks like naya and BUG gives them things like t3 kiora, t4 sphinx. You can't get a turn 5 elspeth consistently in this build so I would not rely on it (would just use silence). Sure BUG or naya MIGHT not hit a t2 carytid and ramp into gold but they at least have the chance to. I cannot see this deck winning much against BUG in particular because you havve ALOT of dead cards in that matchup. The decks to beat are Naya, BUG, and Junk. I think the build could win some games but you will get card advantaged out when naya and BUG play multiple PW's AND courser. Things will just run smoother once they are up for them. I think your best matchup would be Junk but it is 3rd. Answer Naya and BUG first.
The particularly game-ending play is EOT Dictate, untap, attack with flyer and/or pop Font.
I think it is an interesting build. Personally, I would keep anger in the side. If your matchup is naya or BUG those angers are going to be dead cards pretty much. I would replace them with 2 hammer and 2 more searing blood. I don't know how dictate is playing for you but against aggro you may be in big trouble with that in hand. Against other decks though every topdeck burn spell you hit is a 1/5 of their health or more. I would cut dictate down to 2 tops or even relegate it to the side. This way you could play the full set of dragons also. Maybe also you could give your deck a better chance of a nut draw by curving out as so: firedrinker satyr, burn spell, skull cleaver, pheonix, dragon/dictate. Fire drinker is an excllent T1 play and regularly gets 2+ dmg in. I would definately include him for an early drop. Just some ideas.
One difference I see is that Josh is running 24 lands, where as Reid, Park and Chapin's decks had 26/26/25 respectively. And both R/G Elspeth decks had 24 lands.
Only two agent of erebos in the top 8 lists. If this frequency is generalizable to the PT then I'd say reanimator could have made a strong showing. Nobody thought reanimator was going to be played (thus no SB hate) but it is incredibly powerful and would have likely had a great matchup against these lists.
what you want is silence the believers over gild and font over divination. Here is a list i monied with the other day (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/232963). Personally, I think esper is not in a good position with the slew of aggro decks filling mtgo right now. But the ram gives it some incremental life gain which is desperately needs. I'd also have 2 drowns main and 2 side if your playing mtgo right now.
Perhaps try streaming. You cannot be all sappy when you are streaming because nobody wants to watch that and you will get CONSTANT input on your decisions and play style if you have some folks watching. In magic, we lose. A lot. It's a part of the game and sometimes you hit a streak of losing (i went two weeks recently without moneying in a daily it was dreadful). The game is based on variance but you can do things to ameliorate that. Control draws to ameliorate it and aggro has less lands and more threats. It also sounds like your emotions are getting in the way of your game play. G1 losses are rough but it's out of three. I have found myself being all "o there is no way i can win this match after G1 loss against a bad matchup" but that is rubbish. Learn how to mulligan, learn how to analyze your lines of play. ALWAYS play to the end and consider possibilities outside of the board state. Do people lose of flood or mana screw? Yeah! But they can also win just as much in those situations depending on what happens. Give yourself the best chance to win. Sure sometimes it will be inevitable but if you don't have the habit, you will never see yourself pull out wins in matches from behind. Yesterday, I played a block daily in an esper mirror match. I was on the play and had to mulligan my first hand because it had no U mana or scrys when in the mirror thats what gets you there. My opponent kept with only swamps and a thoughtseize. He seized me and that hurt but i drew cards and he could play anything else in his hand for 5 turns. Crazy thing is I got stuck on 4 mana (just before u can put down win cons in block), and he recovered with land drops and nearly won. He lost because he couldn't counterspell and make a drop as he had too few U. This example is good because it shows you my line of though and his. Variance had its' way with each of us but in the end my decision to mulligan bad lands won me the game (besides other decisions of course). Stay away from limited on MTGO. Now is the cheapest you will be able to play constructed. Learn a format. Pick a deck. Watch replays of dailies. And play every game for the win. Good luck.
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This is what I figured reanimator would lean toward. A more threat dense build that doesn't rely so much on the grave but takes adv of it. I would recommend taking out the brain maggots for more threats like herald of torment. Also, 7 rampers doesn't seem needed when you are ramping into nothing. I would cut satyr and maybe even carytid as you have the wayfinders to fix for you. Another whip and more threats I would replace them with.
I was thinking of Polukranos as another win condition. What other win conditions do you think this deck could benefit from? I'm not %100 cutting Sylvan Caryatid, as it has been a game changer vs some of the more aggressive decks, though Voyaging Satyr is a flex slot. I've been primarily using the ramp to cast numerous GY spells in one turn, giving the deck an overwhelming advantage the following turn, not necessarily to ramp into a higher CC spell.
Also, Brain Maggots has been a true allstar, often turning my opponents opening hands from keepable to absolute garbage. Also the only maindeck way to deal with SB GY hate as well as being an enchantment for Strength of the Fallen.
Yeah I can understand that. Brain maggot can be powerful but what does it do that thoughtseize doesn't guarantee? If you are running 21 lands and all your 2 drops are 1/1 bodies I feel like drown or anger is going to be powerful against you nor will you be that threatening. You don't really have to answer anything in that deck until the person drops nemesis of mortals or an enchantment. Against aggro or monsters decks you are going to get outclassed on the board very quickly. Reaper, polu, herald of torment and master of the feast all sound like options here. There is also more dig spells in this deck than current models of reanimator but less of a chance to abuse the grave well with only one whip and no rescue. But the creature base would still need to be changed for a better GY strat because there are few targets worthy of whipping in the deck. The best targets are evasion creatures like herald, master of the feast, abhorrent overlord, and ashen rider. If you whip back nemesis he gets chumped. Whipping back a 1/1 doesnt get anywhere either. Just some ideas. -3 satyr, -4 maggot, -3 nighthowler, -2 commune, +4 courser of kruphix, +3-4 abhorrent overlord (ETB effects too good), +2 whips, +3 master of the feast. I also think Ajani is great in this deck. There are a lot of options in general. The deck also needs some answers like downfall (which you have) and thoughtseize. I actually think silence the believers would be good for this deck because it ramps and silence can get value really well in the form of 2 for 1s or more (it happens). My only suggestion is to go hard at one strategy. Either put pressure on and reanimate ok targets at backup or go slow (like current models) and reanimate game winning targets. I don't think the latter is viable with agent of erebos around though. Good luck.
I took your suggestions into major consideration and immediately went to testing. After several games, I found myself in a dire need of spot removal. 2x Hero's Downfall came in with the aid of 3x Nyx Weaver. Being able to continuously cast spot removal won me many games. Pharika, God of Affliction won me a few games as a late game finisher and ultimately became a singleton, with all of the card filtering I never wanted to see a second copy.
Now onto the matches I played against!
Naya Midrange
5-2
To be honest, I feared this matchup from the get go. Game 1 we played similar games with turn one temple lands into turn two mana dorks. He drops a Polukranos, World Eater on turn 3 and I responded with a Hero's Downfall. During my turn I doubled up on Commune with the Gods into a Nighthowler bestowed on a Voyaging Satyr the following turn. He couldn't keep up with a massive satyr turning sideways every turn, even after dropping an Arbor Colossus. Most of the games ended this way. The games he beat me were with Polukranos attacking with a Bow of Nylea on board. He would then, in response to declaring attackers, wipe my field by monstrousing his hydra to deathtouch my defense. Naya Midrange has a hard time dealing with early massive threats and that's exactly what dredge is trying to accomplish. I feel this is a favorable matchup for us.
Mono Black Devotion
3-3
This is a very difficult matchup for us, as they run several forms of removal maindeck. Thoughtseize doesn't bother us as much as Hero's Downfall. Games generally ended with him dropping and Abhorrent Overlord or me whipping back a monstrous sized Nighthowler or Nemesis of Mortals to swing the game in my favor. One stalemate ended up with us sitting on each other's Nighthowlers, not able to do anything. Nyx Weaver won me that game, by breaking the stalemate to grab me an earlier used Hero's Downfall to swing in for the win the following turn. Very close games. I feel Drown in Sorrow might be a strong sideboard card here, as it deals with the harpy tokens as well as Agent of Fates (in most cases). Still unsure here however.
Orzhov Aggro
2-1
This matchup is a little in our favor, as Brimaz, King of Oreska seemed to be his primary win condition. Brimaz has a very difficult time racing a 10/10 Nemesis of Mortals on turn 4, as well as the maindeck Hero's Downfall. He ran the BW God, but only saw him 1 game (which is the game he won). This could be a very scary matchup if in the hands of someone who understands what dredge is trying to do. I feel Silence the Believers could be a strong sideboard vs this matchup, but still unsure. More testing is needed for sure.
GW Midrange
1-3
This deck tore me apart. The only game I felt I was the aggressor, was the game I started first AND had "god" hands and draws. I top decked exactly what I needed while he seemed to draw very little pressure. Most games ended up with him turning monstroused Fleecemane Lions sideways or sitting on a Sylvan Caryatid with a Godsend equipped to it. Enchantment and artifact hate will need to come in for games 2 and 3 if we are to stand a chance vs this matchup.
Could really use your continued support as I feel we have a real contender here! The deck's consistency is absolutely amazing, as I only mulliganed 2x the entire time I was testing.
This is what I figured reanimator would lean toward. A more threat dense build that doesn't rely so much on the grave but takes adv of it. I would recommend taking out the brain maggots for more threats like herald of torment. Also, 7 rampers doesn't seem needed when you are ramping into nothing. I would cut satyr and maybe even carytid as you have the wayfinders to fix for you. Another whip and more threats I would replace them with.
Hi everyone,
FeloniousCrap here, I've been lurking on the forums for a while now, and only now have felt the inclination to join. I'm not new to mtg either; I've been playing since Lorwyn came out and have loved the game ever since. Hopefully I can get in on all the magic-related discussion goodness that happens here.
Just finished a short session vs. WW/Mono W heroic (Phalanx Leader, Favoured Hoplite, Fabled Hero, Launch the Fleet etc.) Lost badly, 0-4, and on the play every time. Frankly it just felt far too slow. Doomwake Giant comes down far too late to be effective (and by that point all the heroic creatures are at about 3 or 4 toughness putting them well out of reach)- it did clear out soldier tokens but came nowhere near to wiping an entire board. Bile Blight is difficult to cast early given the green base of the deck and again suffers when creatures get big. Eidolon is usually needed to chump as soon as it comes down, although does 2-for-1 a fair amount of the time, and is probably one of the better cards to have in this matchup. As expected, Courser was the most useful card on the whole. Of course, I'm sure I could have played these games better (though the player I tested with is pretty much exactly the same level as me, if not a bit worse), but I really worry that for an aggro dominated metagame at least, this deck will be too slow. There's only so much card draw based catching up you can do once you get behind and Doomwake Giant, though powerful, lacks real immediate board impact unless it's against Elspeth.
I think the mono white launch the everything deck looks might be solid. Were you playing with sideboards? Because against a very aggressive, go "wide" strategy that such a white deck would employ i can see this deck losing game 1 (not every time by any means) if spear lands unanswered or phalanx leader goes off. Perhaps try my list for a bit? I did not include bile blight or herald because it competes with t2 carytid/ t3 courser and i have lost enough to that kind of mana base in the past to not push it. Also, I am not surprised your build would have difficulty with heroic going off as the deck only has 1 silence the beliebers and 1 anti enchantment card. Silence should be a three of in my opinion because it blows out heroic decks and with carytid you can hit 2 targets on t6. If that is two bestowed creatures we are talking a 4 for 1. Silence is the best kill spell in the set shy of downfall. Also, consign to dust offers up 2 for 1's and in this block format i think it is absolutely nuts to have on your side. Eidolon as a chumper is fine when they have nut draws. Doomwake landing when a white deck has creatures with 3 or 4 toughness is perfectly fine because he is a 4/6 can safely block often. He is about as early as you can expect a threat of his size with an ETB effect. I can see him being a bomb in that match-up. I will start testing next week when I get the cards for the deck on MTGO.
VonPapen I really like your decklist I will also test it and post here. At a first look I think the deck can really slow down aggro enough to take control of the game. Against control I am really curious if Doomwake is efficient against Elspeth and if the sweeper really works against Sphinx. But I also fear the GR matchup, Polis Crusher seems like the archenemy of the deck.
These are fair worries and good points. We cannot really tell how it will play out. I have found from my own BGU lists online that carytid to courser to killspells can be a total showstopper for aggro if they cannot take out courser. The issue i have had with bug is that my mana sucks so i am worrisome to block with carytid and courser in early game due to boon and burn spells. This deck won't have that problem as much. The doomwake situation is a tough one to tell but think about it. Doomwake is on the field first and then Elspeth comes down how does the elspeth player tick her? If they +1 they risk getting them board wiped the next turn and then having whatever is on board swinging at them. So, in my opinion, Elspeth has to tick down to kill doomwake (hell you could flash a satyr in EOT and board wipe early). This will miss eidolon and courses which can attack. Follow that with an instant speed boon satyr on wahtever doesn't get blocked and Elspeth has earned them a 1 for 1 and wasted one of your attacks. Let's look at the other situation. Elspeth is on board and ticked up. You play doomwake and swing through. If elspeth survives she will likely not have enough loyalty to tick down and kill doomwake so they will tick her up.... and you just drop another enchantment creature wiping them again. Doomwake is good against Elspeth. What I'm not taking into account are kill spells which can very interrupt the above sequence of events. That's why I like the addition of 2 whips by robx13. I had considered it but I wanted to be beat down but pull doomwake back might be worth having the whip.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath Akroma is my favorite card because when I was in 5th grade I went back to buy one more booster after leaving and cracked her. I proceeded to crush my friends with her for months in kitchen table games.
I think you have provided excellent arguments against fated ret here. The card's effects would only really work in a true control deck but its mana cost makes it unplayable in such a deck. As you've stated rampers are contradictory to the reason for casting the card in the first place. Sooooo, the card sucks in my opinion.
True but there are a couple more reasons to play carytid for ramp and subsequently replace gild with a a set of silence the beliebers. Carytid and courser help put you on curve and ramp. Silence is downright better than gild because it is instant speed. But with the courser/carytid start, silence is consistently a 2 for 1 in late game situations against certain decks. It is the closest thing BG has to a sweep and can outright win games.
Very cool. This archetype crossed my mind once earlier on but I have not explored it. Thing is, carytid and courser are just too good to not run in this deck. The argument is that carytid and courser are relevant because they are the best aggro stuffing bodies in the format besides brimaz. On top of that, carytid in other decks like naya and BUG gives them things like t3 kiora, t4 sphinx. You can't get a turn 5 elspeth consistently in this build so I would not rely on it (would just use silence). Sure BUG or naya MIGHT not hit a t2 carytid and ramp into gold but they at least have the chance to. I cannot see this deck winning much against BUG in particular because you havve ALOT of dead cards in that matchup. The decks to beat are Naya, BUG, and Junk. I think the build could win some games but you will get card advantaged out when naya and BUG play multiple PW's AND courser. Things will just run smoother once they are up for them. I think your best matchup would be Junk but it is 3rd. Answer Naya and BUG first.
I think it is an interesting build. Personally, I would keep anger in the side. If your matchup is naya or BUG those angers are going to be dead cards pretty much. I would replace them with 2 hammer and 2 more searing blood. I don't know how dictate is playing for you but against aggro you may be in big trouble with that in hand. Against other decks though every topdeck burn spell you hit is a 1/5 of their health or more. I would cut dictate down to 2 tops or even relegate it to the side. This way you could play the full set of dragons also. Maybe also you could give your deck a better chance of a nut draw by curving out as so: firedrinker satyr, burn spell, skull cleaver, pheonix, dragon/dictate. Fire drinker is an excllent T1 play and regularly gets 2+ dmg in. I would definately include him for an early drop. Just some ideas.
Only two agent of erebos in the top 8 lists. If this frequency is generalizable to the PT then I'd say reanimator could have made a strong showing. Nobody thought reanimator was going to be played (thus no SB hate) but it is incredibly powerful and would have likely had a great matchup against these lists.
what you want is silence the believers over gild and font over divination. Here is a list i monied with the other day (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/232963). Personally, I think esper is not in a good position with the slew of aggro decks filling mtgo right now. But the ram gives it some incremental life gain which is desperately needs. I'd also have 2 drowns main and 2 side if your playing mtgo right now.
Yeah I can understand that. Brain maggot can be powerful but what does it do that thoughtseize doesn't guarantee? If you are running 21 lands and all your 2 drops are 1/1 bodies I feel like drown or anger is going to be powerful against you nor will you be that threatening. You don't really have to answer anything in that deck until the person drops nemesis of mortals or an enchantment. Against aggro or monsters decks you are going to get outclassed on the board very quickly. Reaper, polu, herald of torment and master of the feast all sound like options here. There is also more dig spells in this deck than current models of reanimator but less of a chance to abuse the grave well with only one whip and no rescue. But the creature base would still need to be changed for a better GY strat because there are few targets worthy of whipping in the deck. The best targets are evasion creatures like herald, master of the feast, abhorrent overlord, and ashen rider. If you whip back nemesis he gets chumped. Whipping back a 1/1 doesnt get anywhere either. Just some ideas. -3 satyr, -4 maggot, -3 nighthowler, -2 commune, +4 courser of kruphix, +3-4 abhorrent overlord (ETB effects too good), +2 whips, +3 master of the feast. I also think Ajani is great in this deck. There are a lot of options in general. The deck also needs some answers like downfall (which you have) and thoughtseize. I actually think silence the believers would be good for this deck because it ramps and silence can get value really well in the form of 2 for 1s or more (it happens). My only suggestion is to go hard at one strategy. Either put pressure on and reanimate ok targets at backup or go slow (like current models) and reanimate game winning targets. I don't think the latter is viable with agent of erebos around though. Good luck.
This is what I figured reanimator would lean toward. A more threat dense build that doesn't rely so much on the grave but takes adv of it. I would recommend taking out the brain maggots for more threats like herald of torment. Also, 7 rampers doesn't seem needed when you are ramping into nothing. I would cut satyr and maybe even carytid as you have the wayfinders to fix for you. Another whip and more threats I would replace them with.
Welcome Felonius. I appreciate your dragonite.
I think the mono white launch the everything deck looks might be solid. Were you playing with sideboards? Because against a very aggressive, go "wide" strategy that such a white deck would employ i can see this deck losing game 1 (not every time by any means) if spear lands unanswered or phalanx leader goes off. Perhaps try my list for a bit? I did not include bile blight or herald because it competes with t2 carytid/ t3 courser and i have lost enough to that kind of mana base in the past to not push it. Also, I am not surprised your build would have difficulty with heroic going off as the deck only has 1 silence the beliebers and 1 anti enchantment card. Silence should be a three of in my opinion because it blows out heroic decks and with carytid you can hit 2 targets on t6. If that is two bestowed creatures we are talking a 4 for 1. Silence is the best kill spell in the set shy of downfall. Also, consign to dust offers up 2 for 1's and in this block format i think it is absolutely nuts to have on your side. Eidolon as a chumper is fine when they have nut draws. Doomwake landing when a white deck has creatures with 3 or 4 toughness is perfectly fine because he is a 4/6 can safely block often. He is about as early as you can expect a threat of his size with an ETB effect. I can see him being a bomb in that match-up. I will start testing next week when I get the cards for the deck on MTGO.
These are fair worries and good points. We cannot really tell how it will play out. I have found from my own BGU lists online that carytid to courser to killspells can be a total showstopper for aggro if they cannot take out courser. The issue i have had with bug is that my mana sucks so i am worrisome to block with carytid and courser in early game due to boon and burn spells. This deck won't have that problem as much. The doomwake situation is a tough one to tell but think about it. Doomwake is on the field first and then Elspeth comes down how does the elspeth player tick her? If they +1 they risk getting them board wiped the next turn and then having whatever is on board swinging at them. So, in my opinion, Elspeth has to tick down to kill doomwake (hell you could flash a satyr in EOT and board wipe early). This will miss eidolon and courses which can attack. Follow that with an instant speed boon satyr on wahtever doesn't get blocked and Elspeth has earned them a 1 for 1 and wasted one of your attacks. Let's look at the other situation. Elspeth is on board and ticked up. You play doomwake and swing through. If elspeth survives she will likely not have enough loyalty to tick down and kill doomwake so they will tick her up.... and you just drop another enchantment creature wiping them again. Doomwake is good against Elspeth. What I'm not taking into account are kill spells which can very interrupt the above sequence of events. That's why I like the addition of 2 whips by robx13. I had considered it but I wanted to be beat down but pull doomwake back might be worth having the whip.