Recent decks on mtgtop8 are using Black over White as the 4th color of BtL Scapeshift decks.
Black does, indeed, provides us some nice spells, such as Abrupt Decay and Slaughter Games. Also, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is getting replaced on those lists as well. How about the inclusion of Nicol Bolas, the Ravager as the deck's alternate kill condition, replacing JTMS?
Seems a good creature to add, because Bolas provides a nice 4/4 body with a discard. And 7 mana is very easy to get by mid/late game, so transform him won't be much of na issue. As for his planeswalker's package, I say that draw 2 extra cards every turn is too sweet to pass and the "-3" and "-4" abilities have a good impact, depending on the matchup. And Bolas is "fetchable" with BtL, while JTMS is not.
Regards,
bitbroosher.
Hey, glad to see some new people in on here. It appears that all the old regulars died or something.
So Bolas is another fair deck win condition you can play out of the sideboard. While I don't think it's bad, I feel there are better options. Maindeck is almost definitely off the table as it turns on their removal. Generally, you only need alt win cons g2-3 anyway. It's not a bad option, I'm just not sure it's the best choice.
Jace is getting replaced because he's fragile and the deck can't generally protect him well. Regrettably, I've not tested with him much so I don't know much more than that.
So there are a number of issues. First off, budget limits? Wooded Foothills is almost strictly worse than Misty Rainforest or Windswept Heath in the deck. I generally find basic Forest to be fetched than Plains or Island so I'd play more Foothills over the Strands if I could.
2 Hallowed Fountain is too many. The deck is (generally) really light on white and only needs 1 for the most part.
2 Sheltered Thicket is nice, but entering tapped is a real cost for your green sources. You're far too low on turn 1 green sources for your Search for Tomorrow. If you can afford 3 more Stomping Grounds, do it.
Sacred Foundry is always a kinda meh card. You rarely need red and white mana unless you're running multiple wraths and angers. It can definitely be useful so I won't really hate on it.
You need a Temple Garden, or at least a Canopy Vista.
Can we get the full list? It really helps for us making observations.
After playing the matchup several times, Tanglebloom is better. Every point matters, and if you're not activating Tanglebloom with your mana it's probably because you need your mana to clear the board or kill your opponent. You're generally not needing a ton of mana in the matchup so as long as you don't get bogged down with multiple you should be ok.
Note, just played another league and went 1-4 with a number of game losing punts and a very very close match against UR Delver.
Been forever since I posted. I got second in that tournament, losing only to TortEx in the Swiss, and only losing to the same TortEx player in the finals. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/942594#paper this list, just -1 Molten Rain +1 Tanglebloom in the sideboard. There were around 35 players.
Perhaps more importantly, I got my first 5-0 on MTGO! My decklist should be published next week. It's the exact list I linked above. Beat Elves 2-0 easily, Tron 2-1 because I got lucky, R/G Aggro 2-1 because he dropped 9 power turn 3 when I had 2 lands and couldn't find a third. Sitting too passively on my Martyr of Ashes to find the third land ended up getting me. Easy wins the rest of the time, although 4x Sprout Swarm was scary. Beat Stompy 2-1 because 8 power turn 2 (which I cleared with a Martyr of Ashes) into Silhana Ledgewalker --> 2x Elephant Guide is nearly impossible to beat without a Martyr already in play. Beat U/R Kiln Fiend 2-1 round 5 to seal up the win. Lost g1 because 3 Cyclops and 3 Kiln Fiend was rough. 3rd Clops got me.
That was my second league with the deck. My brother played it to two 3-2s and my first league was a 1-4.
Anyway, decklist feels really good. I want to try Serrated Arrows over an Arc Lightning one of these days, and might try out Brimstone Volley again.
Teferi doesn't make as much sense as Jace does, IMO, as the untapped lands generally don't matter the most since we're already ahead on mana.
Just wanted to say I played at SCG Atlanta Open and Classic. Unlike last time I bicycled to a major magic tournament, I did rather poorly, with a 3-6 record in both. All my matches were very close, but it just wasn't quite there, generally needing to draw the Scapeshift and not doing it. I won at least a single game in all but 2 matches between the two events, so clearly the deck is close. My game win rate was right around 50%. Decklist: https://deckbox.org/sets/1712264 If I were to play it against I'd want the fourth Baloth as Baloth + Anger is incredibly hard for creature decks to beat. I couldn't find the fourth before I left to bike down to SCG Con, so I just played 3.
I also played the White Splash Scapeshift Mirror Match during the Classic. I lost, and he pulled a 0-3 into a 6-3. GJ for him!
To reiterate the problems I felt, I felt like I had to get a boardwipe with my Bring to Light too often, which left me without a way to win quickly. As such, I'm planning on swapping things around and trying out something I've always wanted to try but never had the guts to do: Glittering Wish Scapeshift. By adding 2 more win cons that can still find board wipes when needed I'm hoping it will add the extra consistency I was lacking. https://deckbox.org/sets/1871593 It also gives me out to turn 0 double Leyline of Sanctity that I lost to from Bogles, and alternate win conditions that are hard to kill are easily accessible if I lose the Valakut combo. The only notable exclusion on that front that I can think of is Geist of Saint Traft. I am unsure what I need to do to the mana to fix it up for a Glittering Wish. Testing will follow. Currently I'm planning on playing KCI or Affinity for SCG Philadelphia.
After playing a bunch with Eternal Witness a bunch more, I'm not switching back to Snapcaster Mage. I played a single game where the difference could have mattered (against Infect) and every other time Witness was as good or better. I won an entire game against Bogles by Cryptic locking them, and returned Obstinate Baloths and Misty Rainforests as well as spells. It seems much much better to me.
Yes, this is a double post. It's been several weeks.
I'm trying to get my list solidified before I leave for SCG Con. This is my current list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/681057#paper . Since last time, I dropped the two Relic of Progenitus for a second Supreme Verdict and getting back the Canopy Vista. I really am liking Izzet Charm, but I don't think it warrants a fourth copy.
Eternal Witness has been better than Snapcaster Mage. I'm liking it pretty well so far. At the absolute worst, my wallet likes it better.
My only big issue is that I feel *unfavored* against blue decks with this version. After playing with 4 Remand for so long I was used to crushing blue based control, but now I'm dreading playing against it. Obviously I could start shoving Remands back in, but that doesn't seem quite right. The 3rd Path to Exile, the 26th land (whichever that one would be), Eternal Witness, and the 3rd Farseek are the loosest cards in the decklist, I feel. Any advice there?
I really like having the simple sideboard. It's nice. Loosest sideboard card is the 4th Baloth. Could end up as a Chameleon Colossus, a Crumble to Dust, or a Glen Elendra Archmage. In particular, that last one seems interesting to me. Anyone have experience with it?
So far, it's been fine. I really really really like not having Remand. I miss having a second Verdict periodically. Eternal Witness is mediocre, much like Snapcaster Mage. Haven't gotten to use it a bunch yet to solidify my opinion. As others have said, Relic isn't that great. It's mediocre 90% of the time. Sideboard is chill, but will probably play Shatterstorm over Creeping Corrosion in the future.
Could see dropping Relics for a verdict/farseek/charm split. I like the Charms and Farseeks a good bit so far.
As far as going straight RUG, if you're not worried about the Jace nonbo, I suggest trying Hour of Devastation as I've found it to be rather good.
I think that BGx is just about as lopsided as he makes it out to be. Can you lose? Obviously. Almost every time I've lost however was due to a Liliana on turn 3. Izzet Charm is conveniently very good against that.
@FNMWorldChampion it's pretty obvious that you're way more of an aggressive BtL Shift deck that most lists. Can I get some insight on why you ended up going aggressive, and why you're not playing TitanShift if that's the goal?
I'm still hanging around with a rather control heavy list. One of these days I'll end up testing with yours. I definitely like dropping Remand. I'm unsure if I want to add Farseek (I've long said that turn 3 Cryptic Command is the best part of the deck) especially since I have rougher mana costs than most lists, or Izzet Charm.
Why Black over White?
I hate Repeal almost every time I play it. Sure, I hate Path sometimes, but I've always felt I hate Repeal more.
I think his more aggressive lists are probably better than the control versions I've been sporting around for the last forever. I agree Remand is in a terrible spot right now. Relic also seems like it would be the opposite of clunky: It's semi-disruptive, and cantrips at the worst. Seems good to me.
As a long time player of BtL, I don't think that BtL not fetching Jace is even the slightest problem. The biggest problem IMO is not fetching Detention Sphere. The mana is rough, sure, but it's really not that hard to play around Blood Moon if they're not casting it on turn 1. I'd dub the mana "good enough". I'm not sure whether or not it's worse than RUG vs actual Land Destruction as I've not had the opportunity to play the matchup yet. As much as I loved RUG for a long time, I'm not sure Jace actually made it better than BtL.
As far as interesting bits of that GP Phoenix list, Destructive Revelry sideboard is SPICY. Against Affinity, it lets you do a 7 land kill, which could be the difference between winning and losing, similarly with Lantern. It also has the versatility to blow up a Blood Moon or something from Bogles. Definitely a well thought out inclusion, even if I'm not playing it.
The more I think about it, the more I like the Eternal Witness spice. Haven't played it, but it seems like it would be sweet.
The biggest thing about your list to me is not running maindeck Anger of the Gods/Sweltering Suns, at least one of them. Purkle's current list isn't running any either, but I'd run 1-2.
Well I just lost my first match with the deck against BUG Land Destruction. Record falls to 23-1. I still haven't played against Burn or Affinity though, so I'm still waiting for more sideboard info. I suspect the sideboard Tangleblooms will become Radiant Fountains, but I'm not 100% sure until I get to test against burn. This deck is so much fun! Only change I've made since is -1 Electrickery +1 Martyr of Ashes in the sideboard.
EDIT 2/27: Finally got in a match against Affinity. The matchup felt way better than I was expecting, got a clean 2-0. I think dropping a Shaman for another Martyr is a good option, since it's relevant in more matchups as well as Affinity. It's also possible I start using the slots for Burn hate (which I still have yet to see in nearly 35 matches/games). Current record: 26-2-3 in matches, 4-3 in single games. I may end up purchasing this on MTGO at some point because I think it's a lot of fun.
EDIT 3/21: I got in a couple matches vs Burn (3-0), Tireless Tribe (2-0), Affinity (3-1), Heroic (5-1), Bogles (3-0), UB Control (1-1-1), Mono Green Land Destruction (0-1) Sultai Land Destruction (0-2) since the last time I posted. Only major changes have been adding a 3rd Martyr Maindeck over a Fissure, and a Brimstone Volley over a Staggershock and an Arc Lightning. Affinity I think isn't a great matchup, but it's winnable because Mox Monkey is good. Heroic and Bogles have been surprisingly manageable. I'm still confident burn is a terrible matchup, despite not losing. After playing a bit more, I think I'm going to try 2 Radiant Fountain over 2 Quicksand, and 2 Rakdos Carnarium over 2 Mountains.
I'm constantly amazed at how well this is performing. I'm taking it to a big in-paper pauper tournament locally and if I win I figure I'll buy into MTGO with it.
As far as the Jace question goes, most decks don't slam Jace on turn 4, generally opting until they have some semblance of control over the game (such as 8 mana for Cryptic + Jace, Verdict + Jace, Snap-Bolt, etc) and if there is any reason I'd call Scapeshift a good Jace deck is that it gets to that point a LOT faster than other decks.
I think it's 3 for RUG, 2 for BtL. I've also been considering that 1 in the sideboard (of Bring to Light). I want to try being able to go up to 3 Anger of the Gods, 4 Obstinate Baloth, 3 Jace for a midrange-style plan post sideboard. Whether or not it's a good idea, I want to try it
Hey, glad to see some new people in on here. It appears that all the old regulars died or something.
So Bolas is another fair deck win condition you can play out of the sideboard. While I don't think it's bad, I feel there are better options. Maindeck is almost definitely off the table as it turns on their removal. Generally, you only need alt win cons g2-3 anyway. It's not a bad option, I'm just not sure it's the best choice.
Jace is getting replaced because he's fragile and the deck can't generally protect him well. Regrettably, I've not tested with him much so I don't know much more than that.
2 Hallowed Fountain is too many. The deck is (generally) really light on white and only needs 1 for the most part.
2 Sheltered Thicket is nice, but entering tapped is a real cost for your green sources. You're far too low on turn 1 green sources for your Search for Tomorrow. If you can afford 3 more Stomping Grounds, do it.
Sacred Foundry is always a kinda meh card. You rarely need red and white mana unless you're running multiple wraths and angers. It can definitely be useful so I won't really hate on it.
You need a Temple Garden, or at least a Canopy Vista.
Can we get the full list? It really helps for us making observations.
Note, just played another league and went 1-4 with a number of game losing punts and a very very close match against UR Delver.
Perhaps more importantly, I got my first 5-0 on MTGO! My decklist should be published next week. It's the exact list I linked above. Beat Elves 2-0 easily, Tron 2-1 because I got lucky, R/G Aggro 2-1 because he dropped 9 power turn 3 when I had 2 lands and couldn't find a third. Sitting too passively on my Martyr of Ashes to find the third land ended up getting me. Easy wins the rest of the time, although 4x Sprout Swarm was scary. Beat Stompy 2-1 because 8 power turn 2 (which I cleared with a Martyr of Ashes) into Silhana Ledgewalker --> 2x Elephant Guide is nearly impossible to beat without a Martyr already in play. Beat U/R Kiln Fiend 2-1 round 5 to seal up the win. Lost g1 because 3 Cyclops and 3 Kiln Fiend was rough. 3rd Clops got me.
That was my second league with the deck. My brother played it to two 3-2s and my first league was a 1-4.
Anyway, decklist feels really good. I want to try Serrated Arrows over an Arc Lightning one of these days, and might try out Brimstone Volley again.
Just wanted to say I played at SCG Atlanta Open and Classic. Unlike last time I bicycled to a major magic tournament, I did rather poorly, with a 3-6 record in both. All my matches were very close, but it just wasn't quite there, generally needing to draw the Scapeshift and not doing it. I won at least a single game in all but 2 matches between the two events, so clearly the deck is close. My game win rate was right around 50%. Decklist: https://deckbox.org/sets/1712264 If I were to play it against I'd want the fourth Baloth as Baloth + Anger is incredibly hard for creature decks to beat. I couldn't find the fourth before I left to bike down to SCG Con, so I just played 3.
I also played the White Splash Scapeshift Mirror Match during the Classic. I lost, and he pulled a 0-3 into a 6-3. GJ for him!
To reiterate the problems I felt, I felt like I had to get a boardwipe with my Bring to Light too often, which left me without a way to win quickly. As such, I'm planning on swapping things around and trying out something I've always wanted to try but never had the guts to do: Glittering Wish Scapeshift. By adding 2 more win cons that can still find board wipes when needed I'm hoping it will add the extra consistency I was lacking. https://deckbox.org/sets/1871593 It also gives me out to turn 0 double Leyline of Sanctity that I lost to from Bogles, and alternate win conditions that are hard to kill are easily accessible if I lose the Valakut combo. The only notable exclusion on that front that I can think of is Geist of Saint Traft. I am unsure what I need to do to the mana to fix it up for a Glittering Wish. Testing will follow. Currently I'm planning on playing KCI or Affinity for SCG Philadelphia.
After playing a bunch with Eternal Witness a bunch more, I'm not switching back to Snapcaster Mage. I played a single game where the difference could have mattered (against Infect) and every other time Witness was as good or better. I won an entire game against Bogles by Cryptic locking them, and returned Obstinate Baloths and Misty Rainforests as well as spells. It seems much much better to me.
I'm trying to get my list solidified before I leave for SCG Con. This is my current list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/681057#paper . Since last time, I dropped the two Relic of Progenitus for a second Supreme Verdict and getting back the Canopy Vista. I really am liking Izzet Charm, but I don't think it warrants a fourth copy.
Eternal Witness has been better than Snapcaster Mage. I'm liking it pretty well so far. At the absolute worst, my wallet likes it better.
My only big issue is that I feel *unfavored* against blue decks with this version. After playing with 4 Remand for so long I was used to crushing blue based control, but now I'm dreading playing against it. Obviously I could start shoving Remands back in, but that doesn't seem quite right. The 3rd Path to Exile, the 26th land (whichever that one would be), Eternal Witness, and the 3rd Farseek are the loosest cards in the decklist, I feel. Any advice there?
I really like having the simple sideboard. It's nice. Loosest sideboard card is the 4th Baloth. Could end up as a Chameleon Colossus, a Crumble to Dust, or a Glen Elendra Archmage. In particular, that last one seems interesting to me. Anyone have experience with it?
So far, it's been fine. I really really really like not having Remand. I miss having a second Verdict periodically. Eternal Witness is mediocre, much like Snapcaster Mage. Haven't gotten to use it a bunch yet to solidify my opinion. As others have said, Relic isn't that great. It's mediocre 90% of the time. Sideboard is chill, but will probably play Shatterstorm over Creeping Corrosion in the future.
Could see dropping Relics for a verdict/farseek/charm split. I like the Charms and Farseeks a good bit so far.
As far as going straight RUG, if you're not worried about the Jace nonbo, I suggest trying Hour of Devastation as I've found it to be rather good.
@FNMWorldChampion it's pretty obvious that you're way more of an aggressive BtL Shift deck that most lists. Can I get some insight on why you ended up going aggressive, and why you're not playing TitanShift if that's the goal?
I'm still hanging around with a rather control heavy list. One of these days I'll end up testing with yours. I definitely like dropping Remand. I'm unsure if I want to add Farseek (I've long said that turn 3 Cryptic Command is the best part of the deck) especially since I have rougher mana costs than most lists, or Izzet Charm.
Why Black over White?
I hate Repeal almost every time I play it. Sure, I hate Path sometimes, but I've always felt I hate Repeal more.
As far as interesting bits of that GP Phoenix list, Destructive Revelry sideboard is SPICY. Against Affinity, it lets you do a 7 land kill, which could be the difference between winning and losing, similarly with Lantern. It also has the versatility to blow up a Blood Moon or something from Bogles. Definitely a well thought out inclusion, even if I'm not playing it.
The biggest thing about your list to me is not running maindeck Anger of the Gods/Sweltering Suns, at least one of them. Purkle's current list isn't running any either, but I'd run 1-2.
EDIT 2/27: Finally got in a match against Affinity. The matchup felt way better than I was expecting, got a clean 2-0. I think dropping a Shaman for another Martyr is a good option, since it's relevant in more matchups as well as Affinity. It's also possible I start using the slots for Burn hate (which I still have yet to see in nearly 35 matches/games). Current record: 26-2-3 in matches, 4-3 in single games. I may end up purchasing this on MTGO at some point because I think it's a lot of fun.
EDIT 3/21: I got in a couple matches vs Burn (3-0), Tireless Tribe (2-0), Affinity (3-1), Heroic (5-1), Bogles (3-0), UB Control (1-1-1), Mono Green Land Destruction (0-1) Sultai Land Destruction (0-2) since the last time I posted. Only major changes have been adding a 3rd Martyr Maindeck over a Fissure, and a Brimstone Volley over a Staggershock and an Arc Lightning. Affinity I think isn't a great matchup, but it's winnable because Mox Monkey is good. Heroic and Bogles have been surprisingly manageable. I'm still confident burn is a terrible matchup, despite not losing. After playing a bit more, I think I'm going to try 2 Radiant Fountain over 2 Quicksand, and 2 Rakdos Carnarium over 2 Mountains.
I'm constantly amazed at how well this is performing. I'm taking it to a big in-paper pauper tournament locally and if I win I figure I'll buy into MTGO with it.
Also, Jace/Baloth/Anger midrange plan has been gas. I might consider a Courser of Kruphix in there, or maybe another Jace. Time will tell.
Also having a million shuffle effects